Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Vipermoon]

I think you guys are overreacting over a pretty trivial change.
FAF 30 means the 30th frame will be the first one the next move will come out at.
Total 30 means the 31st frame will be the first one the next move will come out at.
The difference is 1 frame, and I see no reason why anyone would be confused by the difference if they know it. If they don't know the difference between total frames and FAF, they probably won't even notice.

And we get that. But...

My perspective:
Looking at a frame data source I constantly have to remind myself that I'm looking at the frame after. If I am thinking about frame data I constantly have to remind myself that I am not using FAF.

Perspective of those that don't know the difference:
"Why are we calling it FAF when some combination of total or end or whatever could replace it?"

Perspective of those who are new to frame data:
"What is this 'FAF'?" (and after they are told) "that's stupid why can't it be the last frame?" If they were to see total/end/whatever they wouldn't even have to ask "what is this ___?"

 

[Yikarur]

My Frame Data uses "Duration", the japanese frame data uses 全体F which means "total frames" . Street Fighter Frame Data use start-up | active frames | recovery (the sum = total frames)
FAF is just confusing. If you'd insist do use that frame you'd call it "IASA" anyway, because this is what we've called it for 8 years.
We just want not confusing data everyone can use on the first glance.

I wouldn't complain if I hadn't several occasions where it was relevant. "Look the frame data of my character, hewas nerfed by 1 frame on every move" because they compare Brawl Frame Data (which all uses total frames or duratioon) with KH. (This is just an example, I had that multiple times with different scenarios)

 

[randomtechguy142857]

Has anyone in the thread mentioned how much knockback a move can have until it no longer jab locks? If not, does anyone know?

 

[Pazx]

this is a very dumb thing to complain about but here it is (it includes a poll if it doesn't load, have a click)

Getting complaints bout FAF. Your preferences? 7 day poll
FAF = First frame you can act
Total frames = total (FAF-1)

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) January 26, 2016

Yikarur Vipermoon Zapp Branniglenn Pikabunz

 

[Yikarur]

it's hard to vote against the status-quote

but objectively speaking, every frame data uses "Total Frames" or "Duration" and FAF is just made-up. I hope we can get more unified data using in the future. It's always confusing to look at the japanese data, brawl data and kuroganehammer data and compare numbers because they are not uniform.

 

[Lavani]

Has anyone in the thread mentioned how much knockback a move can have until it no longer jab locks? If not, does anyone know?

A 0° move will always lock as long as the opponent isn't pushed off a ledge. Jiggs can dsmash someone and send them skidding from ledge to ledge on FD and still lock.

A 361° move stops locking when it starts lifting off the ground, which begins at 60KB.

Spikes stop locking and start groundbouncing at 80KB.

 

[Vipermoon]

A 0° move will always lock as long as the opponent isn't pushed off the ground. Jiggs can dsmash someone and send them skidding from ledge to ledge on FD and still lock.

A 361° move stops locking when it starts lifting off the ground, which begins at 60KB.

Spikes stop locking and start groundbouncing at 80KB.

Nice. Kind of related... what is the knockback threshold for tumble knockback?

 

[Lavani]

Nice. Kind of related... what is the knockback threshold for tumble knockback?

Also 80KB. The transition to tumble knockback is what makes spikes start groundbouncing.

 

[AxelVDP]

I just recently stumbled into this

does anyone have some kind of idea of what just happened??

 

[Lavani]

• Ganon hits Sheik with sourspot dair close to the ledge
• Sheik is stagespiked during dair's hitlag, then snaps to the ledge, seemingly all during the time she's still supposed to be in hitlag
• Sheik grabs the air in front of the ledge rather than the ledge itself
• Sheik attempts ledge jump Vanish, but seems to retain momentum from dair's knockback and moves away from the stage during Vanish.

It's not something I've ever seen before, but it looks like an untechable right at the ledge can cause you to ledgesnap during hitlag and preserve momentum from the knockback you were supposed you receive. Interesting clip.

 

[Zarxrax]

I posted this in the Mewtwo forums, and was advised to repost it here:
https://youtu.be/7e-bapuJJrw

About 12 seconds in, I was trying to jump back onstage with a forward air, but I actually did a lagless landing ftilt. Anyone know what happened here and if this might be repeatable?

 

[Pikabunz]

I posted this in the Mewtwo forums, and was advised to repost it here:
https://youtu.be/7e-bapuJJrw

About 12 seconds in, I was trying to jump back onstage with a forward air, but I actually did a lagless landing ftilt. Anyone know what happened here and if this might be repeatable?

Seems related to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oBLDQlPkQk

 

[Sonicninja115]

Seems related to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oBLDQlPkQk

That was my thought, but it only uses half of the tech. Could it be that Mewtwo just has to press into the stage at a certain position, not time?

 

[teluoborg]

Just to add something on the FAF discussion : it makes no sense to use FAF on cooldowns but keep the regular counting for landing lags and autocancels. Either put +1 everywhere or nowhere.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Just to add something on the FAF discussion : it makes no sense to use FAF on cooldowns but keep the regular counting for landing lags and autocancels. Either put +1 everywhere or nowhere.

You need duration frame count for landing lag because its initiation time is variable. Example: ZSS nair - earliest landing with lag is frame 4, which sees the landing lag ending on frame 14. Land on the latest frame that causes landing lag, frame 42, and the landing lag ends on frame 52).

Since that really can't be changed, and the time the attack frames take place can't change (other than landing frames and charge release frames), I suppose duration counting probably makes sense everywhere as a consistency thing.

From my perspective, I get off-by-1 errors all the time when I do frame data counting. It may be because of FAF, it may be because I'm dyslexic. Who knows?

 

[Yikarur]

You could call it "Landing FAF"

FAF is source of a lot of mistakes because most people mistake the number for the duration.

 

[teluoborg]

Or FAF on landing, FAFOL for short.

 

[jmjb]

what happens if you get jabbed before a tech? like you're about to hit the ground, but right before you can input the tech (or I guess during? does tech have invincibility frames? I don't think so so I guess it could also be during) anyway right before or during the tech, so right as you're approaching the ground, you get jabbed. would that STOP you from teching and force you to be vulnerable to a jab lock setup?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

what happens if you get jabbed before a tech? like you're about to hit the ground, but right before you can input the tech (or I guess during? does tech have invincibility frames? I don't think so so I guess it could also be during) anyway right before or during the tech, so right as you're approaching the ground, you get jabbed. would that STOP you from teching and force you to be vulnerable to a jab lock setup?

Getting hit by a weak move would put you out of the tumble state. Jab locks are only possible on somebody who has already hit the ground and missed their tech. With the exception of forced fall states, like footstooling them before they land.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Why is it not IASA though? What was the reason to change it to FAF when we have been using IASA since melee.

 

[Pazx]

Why is it not IASA though? What was the reason to change it to FAF when we have been using IASA since melee.

Direct from KH himself:

The reason I moved towards FAF was because not every move has an IASA frame, thus putting IASA on everything [is] a misnomer

edit for clarification: my understanding is that the "I" in "IASA" stands for interrupt(able) and that some moves cannot be interrupted, meaning you have to wait for the animation to complete before acting again.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

While we're talking about IASA, what's everybody's opinion on the few moves in Smash 4 that do have an interrupt? For instance, transition frames from a jab 1 to jab 2, or repeatable moves like Ness' Dtilt. When we say a Jab 1's IASA into Jab 2 is frame 9, and jab 2 has 5 startup, you can't add the numbers. Because in this instance, Jab 2 is active on frame 13, not 14. Do you think these two terms (duration/total frames and IASA) are compatible in the same frame data source? If a source uses both FAF and IASA, there is no discrepancy since both terms follow the same logic - the first point another action can begin.

 

[ArikadoSD]

What's the difference between intangibility, transcendent priority, and disjointed hitboxes?

From my understanding:

• Disjointed hitboxes mean they're separate from the character's hurtbox.
• Transcendent priority means they always win trades.
• Intangibility means it can't interact with hitboxes and only interacts with hurtboxes, shields, and if they're projectiles, reflectors.

Am I correct with these definitions? Because disjoints and transcendent seem to be pretty much synonyms.

 

[Lavani]

What's the difference between intangibility, transcendent priority, and disjointed hitboxes?

From my understanding:

• Disjointed hitboxes mean they're separate from the character's hurtbox.
• Transcendent priority means they always win trades.
• Intangibility means it can't interact with hitboxes and only interacts with hurtboxes, shields, and if they're projectiles, reflectors.

Am I correct with these definitions? Because disjoints and transcendent seem to be pretty much synonyms.

You're correct about disjoint.

Transcendent priority means the move doesn't clank. Since this forces trades, it's a powerful quality for disjoints and projectiles, but poor for non-disjointed moves and aerials.

Intangibility means the hurtbox is removed. Mario's usmash having head intangibility means his head doesn't have a hurtbox. Full intangibility (roll, tech, etc.) means attacks and projectiles have no hurtbox to interact with and will pass through you harmlessly.

 

[LancerStaff]

Transcendence isn't always bad on non-disjointed attacks. Falco's Fsmash for example isn't exactly a move you wanna trade with.

There's also trample, where a move causes others to clash but keeps going. The hitbox that caused a clank is nullified IIRC. Notable example is Little Mac's Ftilt, where it'll send somebody reeling and then hit them out of the clash animation.

 

[teluoborg]

ArikadoSD your definition for intangibility is in fact the perfect definition for transcendant priority. Intangibility is like Lavani said.

Zapp Branniglenn I think for the sake of clarity that it would be better to have a new expression for that, like "transitions into X on frames Y to Z" or something.

 

[Lavani]

Transcendence isn't always bad on non-disjointed attacks. Falco's Fsmash for example isn't exactly a move you wanna trade with.

The thing is, since it can't clank it's just going to straight-up lose to disjoint. That's why it's bad.

 

[LancerStaff]

The thing is, since it can't clank it's just going to straight-up lose to disjoint. That's why it's bad.

Not everybody's loaded with disjointed moves yaknow...

Although looking at it the move does 15%. That's enough to muscle through a bunch of normals already. Meh, I'm no Falco main. I'll let them decide if it's a good thing.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Reverse Boost Grab?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Reverse Boost Grab?

You slide further if you input the dash turn before the grab. If you input the grab too late though you get an F-tilt.

 

[Kofu]

Direct from KH himself:



edit for clarification: my understanding is that the "I" in "IASA" stands for interrupt(able) and that some moves cannot be interrupted, meaning you have to wait for the animation to complete before acting again.

If you want to see an amusing example of a bizarrely early IASA frame go use Shulk's "I'm really feeling it!" taunt then mash his "This is the Monado's power!" taunt. The first taunt is interruptible right around when the word "it" begins, which isn't usually noticeable except the second taunt overrides the remainder of the vocals.

 

[busken]

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

But what exactly is he doing though? It doesn't even look like he is dashing.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

But what exactly is he doing though? It doesn't even look like he is dashing.

Initiate Dash, transition from initial Dash to later Dash (on frame 7), hit backwards to start a dash turn (on or after frame 7), then on frame 2 or 3 of the dash turn, hit Grab. The result is a pivot grab with much more slide than a pivot grab executed by hitting Grab before or on the same frame as hitting backwards.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Are the ledge trump lag frames equal across characters, or is it different for everyone? In either case, do we have that data?

 

[Vipermoon]

I realize now that I should've put short descriptions next to the links in the first post.

 

[Kofu]

Are the ledge trump lag frames equal across characters, or is it different for everyone? In either case, do we have that data?

Lavani has more info than I do, but I believe that the total number of frames for the one being ledge trumped is the same across characters and how soon the trumper can act relative to that depends on how soon they grabbed the ledge after the first character did. The angle of ejection also varies by character, though it feels to me that it tends to be more vertical than I remember from previous patches.

 

[Lavani]

No, that's actually about what I posted last time someone asked. Roughly 30 frames for Rosa's, I haven't checked anyone else but I don't have any reason to assume it varies much if at all.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It's 28 across the cast.

 

[Shaya]

I realize now that I should've put short descriptions next to the links in the first post.

An alternative idea [that's been considered for a while] is moving the most relevant posts to an archive thread.
"This thread here is the magnum opus of the mechanics and techniques discussion, use the search function here or enjoy reading through it!"

 

[Sonicninja115]

I have heard that it is possible to cancel Hitstun out of throws earlier then the training room counter implies. Can someone elaborate on this please? I know the counter is sorta busted, but I would like to test it out myself.