Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Vipermoon]

An alternative idea [that's been considered for a while] is moving the most relevant posts to an archive thread.
"This thread here is the magnum opus of the mechanics and techniques discussion, use the search function here or enjoy reading through it!"

That's a good idea. The only possible issue that I see is if the context of the posts around it are required to fully understand the "revelant post". But I don't think this is the case in any of those links. Can we do it?

I have heard that it is possible to cancel Hitstun out of throws earlier then the training room counter implies. Can someone elaborate on this please? I know the counter is sorta busted, but I would like to test it out myself.

Check the first post. The link to this one is singled out among the other links.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

Kurogane Hammer's poll finished with 60% for FAF and 40% for total frames. Twitter polls do not show results before votes so status quo did not affect the poll at all. Yikarur Vipermoon


He also says this:

 

[Pikabunz]

#TotalFramesMatter

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't give a crap what that poll says I already knew it was going to be like that. It's like that because people are already used to the KH (most players' only frame data source) website using FAF. I have already argued my points so I won't go again. But I will say that there shouldn't even be points to argue because this is a no-brainer.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I was sitting here for like 5 minutes trying to figure out a way to phrase that lol thanks

 

[Aunt Jemima]

guys I don't like the term "short hop" I want it to be called "very short jump button tap" it's more specific short hop makes no sense

 

[Kofu]

guys I don't like the term "short hop" I want it to be called "very short jump button tap" it's more specific short hop makes no sense

The ingame tips call them low jumps which I use on occasion

 

[Yikarur]

Kurogane Hammer's poll finished with 60% for FAF and 40% for total frames. Twitter polls do not show results before votes so status quo did not affect the poll at all. Yikarur Vipermoon

Status-Quote isn't equal "most votes". I was talking about "what we have now" vs. "what it should be" and of course FAF gets more votes if thats what the page uses atm. A lot of people probably didn't even know what the difference is and just blindly voted the option that is presented right now.
The poll itself was biased as well because the options weren't presented equally.
If we put that into the calculation then I see total frames as the winner.
FAF sucks for several already stated reasons and I will probably use my own sources from now on instead.

Doing a poll was a bad idea as well, because this is not about opinion, we should have put arguments vs. arguments, pro vs. contra and not a poll, because polls don't archive goals if 90% of the voters are not even knowledgable about the subject.

 

[teluoborg]

It's 28 across the cast.

1 I don't know how I managed to not stumble upon this doc before now, thanks for sharing.

2 IIRC ledge trumping happens from frame 22 after grabbing the ledge, does that mean that the time you have to capitalize on a ledge trump is 28-x frames (x being the number of frames between your opponent and you grabbing the ledge) ?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

1 I don't know how I managed to not stumble upon this doc before now, thanks for sharing.

2 IIRC ledge trumping happens from frame 22 after grabbing the ledge, does that mean that the time you have to capitalize on a ledge trump is 28-x frames (x being the number of frames between your opponent and you grabbing the ledge) ?

I thought ledge trumping happened on frame 20 (or 19), the ledge hold time of most characters. This document doesn't have numbers for tether grabbers, which hold for... 3 frames? I think? I wonder if tether grabbers get ledge trumped faster as a result? Not that it's likely given the small time window and the variable nature of tether recovery.

As for FAF vs total frames... well, I wonder what that poll would look like across known data users. Joe schmoe who looked at Mario's up air stats once versus some of the data power users around this thread, character research threads, and the 4BR. Restrict polling to these data power users would likely result in the reverse result.

 

[Megamang]

The power data users understand it better anyways, joe shmoe just wants to know when he can utilt again.

I didnt vote, just playing devil's advocate here.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I thought ledge trumping happened on frame 20 (or 19), the ledge hold time of most characters. This document doesn't have numbers for tether grabbers, which hold for... 3 frames? I think? I wonder if tether grabbers get ledge trumped faster as a result? Not that it's likely given the small time window and the variable nature of tether recovery.

As for FAF vs total frames... well, I wonder what that poll would look like across known data users. Joe schmoe who looked at Mario's up air stats once versus some of the data power users around this thread, character research threads, and the 4BR. Restrict polling to these data power users would likely result in the reverse result.

I use my characters frame data often, and I want to learn as much as I can about the game. Personally, I don't care. As long as the data is correct I am okay with it.

How fast would an aerial be to get a true follow-up out of a trump? frame 8 or lower?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

How fast would an aerial be to get a true follow-up out of a trump? frame 8 or lower?

Well, the act of letting go of the ledge is a different frame than when ledge options can begin. I'm told it's two more frames after the ledge option window. 22 for most characters. So the Trumper can act on 23, and the trumpee can act on 29. But that's assuming both grab the ledge at the same frame, and I don't know how the game decides priority for who stays on the ledge. So frame 5 or lower might be more accurate in order to avoid that 50/50 possibility. Plus, letting go of the ledge is not an action you can buffer, unlike ledge options, so these punishes need to be frame perfect.

But it's not all bad. Add to that how even the fastest air dodges need at least one vulnerable frame before they can dodge moves, and how most double jumps don't provide much ascension on just the first or even fifth frame. Many characters should have a good Bair or Nair to use. But Ledge trumping's potential isn't just for hitting people, it's for making them choose between grabbing the ledge again for 20 frames of vulnerability, or recovering above the stage. I would bank off those possibilities rather than Trump + Bair even if I had a move fast enough.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Well, the act of letting go of the ledge is a different frame than when ledge options can begin. I'm told it's two more frames after the ledge option window. 22 for most characters. So the Trumper can act on 23, and the trumpee can act on 29. But that's assuming both grab the ledge at the same frame, and I don't know how the game decides priority for who stays on the ledge. So frame 5 or lower might be more accurate in order to avoid that 50/50 possibility. Plus, letting go of the ledge is not an action you can buffer, unlike ledge options, so these punishes need to be frame perfect.

But it's not all bad. Add to that how even the fastest air dodges need at least one vulnerable frame before they can dodge moves, and how most double jumps don't provide much ascension on just the first or even fifth frame. Many characters should have a good Bair or Nair to use. But Ledge trumping's potential isn't just for hitting people, it's for making them choose between grabbing the ledge again for 20 frames of vulnerability, or recovering above the stage. I would bank off those possibilities rather than Trump + Bair even if I had a move fast enough.

Oh, I interpreted the data differently, this is a good clarification.

If I am catching this right, you are counting frames from when the ledge grab happens and going from there. Using this system of counting ledge trumping takes 28 frames and a regular ledge grab takes 22 frames.

I thought it was 28 frames on top of the minimum ledge hold (I thought the two were counted as separate durations). So that trump animation only really holds you out there for 8 frames?

 

[Locke 06]

Status-Quote

Status-quo. Figured since you said it twice, it's not a typo and just didn't know.

joe shmoe just wants to know when he can utilt again.

I didnt vote, just playing devil's advocate here.

Which is why FAF makes a lot of sense.

Although I still want jab FAF's.

Also, "total frames" is ambiguous, since you have total frames of the animation and total frames of inactivity (commitment)... And then Joe schmoe will ask why he still suffers landing lag when the "total frames" of Roy's FAir have ended.


Misinformation will always happen, some people still think shield comes out f2. FAF vs total frames really shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So that trump animation only really holds you out there for 8 frames?

You know what, I think I am wrong, because it does sound ridiculous. It should be 28 plus whatever they suffer from the ledge grab. Anybody that's ever seen a ledge trump animation can tell you that's not 5 or 8 frames long

 

[Megamang]

Maybe i was unclear Locke 06 , but i was indeed advocating for FAF. It provides the most meaningful piece of data: when can i start pushing buttons again.

 

[Locke 06]

Maybe i was unclear Locke 06 , but i was indeed advocating for FAF. It provides the most meaningful piece of data: when can i start pushing buttons again.

Nah, I understood. I quoted you as saying that was meaningful.

The idea of shield coming out the same frame as FAF even though it is frame 1 and not "frame 0" is where a lot of new frame data people I teach get tripped up. Mostly because I don't know how to explain it away very well.

 

[Pyr]

After skimming through, quick question: Why not include both data sets? If I missed the reason, I apologize, but it seems silly to omit data when it eventually won't have to be re-gathered.

 

[Jams.]

After skimming through, quick question: Why not include both data sets? If I missed the reason, I apologize, but it seems silly to omit data when it eventually won't have to be re-gathered.

If you're asking why both total frames and FAF shouldn't be included, it is because total frames is just FAF - 1. Including both would be kind of redundant.

 

[BJN39]

FAF sucks for several already stated reasons and I will probably use my own sources from now on instead.

I'm sorry your going to ignore largely complete, thorough, and easy to read data because one subset isn't displayed to your preference, and the decision wasn't handled the way you thought it should be. Going and saying "FAF sucks" isn't helping your cause either.

Have fun with your sources.

 

[Kurogane Hammer]

Using this account cuz no one's online who can quickly post for me on my self banned account.

FAF sucks for several already stated reasons and I will probably use my own sources from now on instead.

You do that bud.

As for FAF vs total frames... well, I wonder what that poll would look like across known data users. Joe schmoe who looked at Mario's up air stats once versus some of the data power users around this thread, character research threads, and the 4BR. Restrict polling to these data power users would likely result in the reverse result.

I actually considered doing a 4BR only poll but I was never approached to be part of that despite knowing more about the game than 99% of individuals so I don't have access to that resource. Maybe if they open applications I will apply and redo the poll there if they accept me (probably unlikely), but for now Twitter poll will have to do.

The reason for using FAF has been stated numerous times already, total frames, like IASA is a misnomer. cFive can probably confirm that total frames is a lot longer than the FAF (I believe one of their videos mentions that Sheik fair total frames is 87 or something equally absurd compared to the FAF of 35).

If you want your "total frames", all you gotta do is minus a single frame. C'mon, you're hurting me inside. lol

 

[Vipermoon]

The original KuroganeHammer/Aerodome account is banner? Wtf why!?

Anyway, I don't get why FAF advocators are so adamant that total frames = length of animation.

If that is such an issue, THEN USE DURATION

Regardless, I can't even begin to understand the brains of some people who look at a single move and want to add 1 to it... which means you have to ignore the first frame of your next action. That is, IF you even have a next action. Why assume you'll always act as soon as you can?

This is so simple, just tell people how laggy a move is by itself. Just like how you separate each move by rows because they are separate moves.

 

[teluoborg]

Spoiler

Let's replace FAF (first active frame) with LIF (last inactive frame)

 

[Vipermoon]

Spoiler

Let's replace FAF (first active frame) with LIF (last inactive frame)

Okay cool but it's First ACTIONABLE Frame. An active frame is a frame with hitboxes on it so...

 

[Locke 06]

Okay cool but it's First ACTIONABLE Frame. An active frame is a frame with hitboxes on it so...

Legit hurting inside.

Thought you ought to know.

Edit: lol misread active as actionable.

 

[teluoborg]

Then replace inactive with inactionable. Sheesh.

 

[Vipermoon]

Or Kurogane Hammer if you don't want to derail this thread anymore, PM me, I legit want to hear more of your thoughts on this.

I want to let you know that you are immensely appreciated, especially by me. I use KH all the time, it's just my 2nd to last post^ basically sums up the issue.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Reading these posts makes me feel like the world is going to end if we don't pick a side between the Halidom of Total Frames, or the First Actionable Empire. Can our people truly find peace?

Anyway, this morning I posted a dumb answer to the concept of ledge trumps and how many frames you have. Here's the real data I was trying to remember: The Ledge hold period is 20 frames before you can ledge roll, ledge jump, or ledge attack (and 19 for some of the guys, but let's stick to an example of characters with 20). One frame after that is the point a ledge trump animation can begin. Two frames after ledge hold is the point you can perform ledge get-up or let go of the ledge manually. If there's another guy on the ledge with you when you reach your ledge trump frame, you're thrown off into a 28 frame trumped animation, but that can't happen sooner than 21 of your ledge hold. If they've passed frame 21 and wait around as you grab the ledge, they're trumped immediately. And in that late trump scenario, you've only got around 5 frames to let go of the ledge, double jump to them and hit them with a Bair before they can act in some way. It's the worst case scenario. A best case scenario is when you grab the ledge just one frame after the other guy, and they fail to input ledge roll, attack, or jump in response. In that scenario, you can let go of the ledge when they're in frame 2 of their 28 frame trump animation, and that's a lot more time to move and aim a Bair at them before they can act. 26 frames before they can control their character in any way.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Reading these posts makes me feel like the world is going to end if we don't pick a side between the Halidom of Total Frames, or the First Actionable Empire. Can our people truly find peace?

Anyway, this morning I posted a dumb answer to the concept of ledge trumps and how many frames you have. Here's the real data I was trying to remember: The Ledge hold period is 20 frames before you can ledge roll, ledge jump, or ledge attack (and 19 for some of the guys, but let's stick to an example of characters with 20). One frame after that is the point a ledge trump animation can begin. Two frames after ledge hold is the point you can perform ledge get-up or let go of the ledge manually. If there's another guy on the ledge with you when you reach your ledge trump frame, you're thrown off into a 28 frame trumped animation, but that can't happen sooner than 21 of your ledge hold. If they've passed frame 21 and wait around as you grab the ledge, they're trumped immediately. And in that late trump scenario, you've only got around 5 frames to let go of the ledge, double jump to them and hit them with a Bair before they can act in some way. It's the worst case scenario. A best case scenario is when you grab the ledge just one frame after the other guy, and they fail to input ledge roll, attack, or jump in response. In that scenario, you can let go of the ledge when they're in frame 2 of their 28 frame trump animation, and that's a lot more time to move and aim a Bair at them before they can act. 26 frames before they can control their character in any way.

To add to this, tether grabbers have a 3 frame ledge hold time. Ideal time on that one is ridiculous. For the one being trumped it's 20 (ledge hold) + 1 (frame before forced trump animation) + 28 (ledge trump) = 49 frames. For a normal ledge grab response it's 1 (wait for foe to grab) + 20 (ledge hold) + 2 (frames before you can act manually) = 23. The difference is as Zapp Branniglenn listed: 26 frames. For tether grabbers the ideal time is 1 (wait for ledge grab) + 3 (ledge hold) + 2 (frames before you can manually act) = 6. This yields 43 frames of advantage.

You know, unless I have the ledge hold time for tether grabbers wrong. I've heard instant, then I heard it corrected to 3 frames. I don't quite have the time to test it myself at the moment (says the guy writing about it, ha).

 

[Lavani]

You have to still be holding the ledge for them to get booted off. Tethering can't give you more than +28 (+27? unsure if you can let go the same frame they get trumped) advantage.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

You have to still be holding the ledge for them to get booted off. Tethering can't give you more than +28 (+27? unsure if you can let go the same frame they get trumped) advantage.

I want to try this in frame advance now! Ledge snap after your foe but release before they get trumped.

If trumping still happens as you release on the trump frame (so, 28 frames advantage) that barely rules out ledge trump flip kick (or it's frame perfect, considering frame 2 air dodge invulnerability). I have the sad. :-(.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Tethering to the ledge gives you zero necessary ledge hold frames, being able to ledge attack/jump/roll immediately, or in other words, the first frame of that action happens on what would have been the first ledge hold frame (which can be buffered). The confusion might just come from the fact that you would have some 'necessary' ledge hold frames if you wanted to do a ledge get-up or let go of the ledge, of which there are two frames of ledge hold time only, being able to have the first frame of these actions on what would have been the third ledge-hold frame (cannot be buffered). I am sure of this.

 

[Pikabunz]

So there's this weird thing with Pikachu where if you buffer a sideb out of his bair, his sideb's charge phase get canceled and he immediately shoots forward. Anyone got an explanation for this or know if it happens with other characters?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Ok, I got a little lab time in before bed.

I confirmed the ledge hold info Fox Is Openly Deceptive discussed and the interesting ledge trump test I devised after seeing the post Lavani shared.

As said, you must grab the ledge after your foe AND wait through the 21st frame that forces the ledge trump. For most, no big deal, just meet the first condition. For tether grabbers, you can grab and release the ledge well before that frame, leaving your for un-trumped and not forced to choose other options.

Very cool stuff!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So there's this weird thing with Pikachu where if you buffer a sideb out of his bair, his sideb's charge phase get canceled and he immediately shoots forward. Anyone got an explanation for this or know if it happens with other characters?

That is really weird. You end up saving 13 frames of start-up lag. And it seems to be specifically restricted to these two moves.

Ok, I got a little lab time in before bed.

I confirmed the ledge hold info Fox Is Openly Deceptive discussed and the interesting ledge trump test I devised after seeing the post Lavani shared.

As said, you must grab the ledge after your foe AND wait through the 21st frame that forces the ledge trump. For most, no big deal, just meet the first condition. For tether grabbers, you can grab and release the ledge well before that frame, leaving your for un-trumped and not forced to choose other options.

Very cool stuff!

One other thing you may want to note seeing as we're discussing trumping mechanics, is that (last time I checked anyway) the all important factor for deciding who gets trumped is not decided by who has the first ledge hold frame, but rather it is decided by who has the first ledge grab frame (if any). So e.g. someone can recover to the ledge from below, go into their first frame of the ledge grab animation, then on the following frame someone else who has tethered the ledge can snap to the ledge from above and enter their first ledge hold frame, and the tethering character is counted as being on the ledge second so they are safe even though to the outside observer they would think that it is the other way around.

 

[cFive]

The reason for using FAF has been stated numerous times already, total frames, like IASA is a misnomer. cFive can probably confirm that total frames is a lot longer than the FAF (I believe one of their videos mentions that Sheik fair total frames is 87 or something equally absurd compared to the FAF of 35).

yeah it's so weird...

so, i kinda got thrown into this conversation and not sure if i follow it correctly, but i like the use of FAF and if you understand what it means i dont think its a problem using the data in research!

 

[I speak Spanish too]

yeah it's so weird...

so, i kinda got thrown into this conversation and not sure if i follow it correctly, but i like the use of FAF and if you understand what it means i dont think its a problem using the data in research!

You should do a video on smash 4 option selects. They are heavily underutilized, yet very effective. You have a great channel and with your fanbase you can easily get the info out. If you take video requests that is

 

[teluoborg]

Zapp Branniglenn Fox Is Openly Deceptive & Dr. Tuen Thanks for the answers now let's make a little summary

Frame 0 : you grab the ledge
Frame 1-20 : forced ledge hold time (can be 19 for some characters or 0 for tether). During the last 10(?) frames you can buffer either a ledge attack, a ledge jump or a ledge roll.
Frame 21 : starting this frame the game checks for ledge trumps. The buffered ledge move takes action. You can also input a ledge get up or a ledge drop.
Frame 22 : if you got ledge trumped on the previous frame then the ledge trump animation begins (it lasts 28 frames). If you didn't get trumped the ledge get up/ledge drop you input on the previous frame begins

Now my next question is if a tetherer grabs the ledge and someone else with regular ledge hold time tries to trump him, will the ledge trump happen on the 20th frame or sooner ?

 

[Pikabunz]

The ledge grab frame is part of the 20 frame ledge hold. Ledge trump happens on frame 21, you input ledge get up/ledge drop on frame 22, and ledge get up/ledge drop happen on frame 23. There's also 2 frames before ledge hold where your character is reaching for the ledge and magnet handing towards it. This is also the 2 frame ledge vulnerability. It doesn't apply if you're grabbing the ledge from above.

To answer your question, the tetherer is vulnerable to ledge trump as soon as they grab the ledge.