Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Masonomace]

Question about the phantom hit (the tiny orange spark that indicates when your spacing was too good).

During an attack, I notice that the phantom him (whatever it's called. I think Brawl ssbwiki called it glancing blow) won't appear on the same frame that the hitbox is within range, but will show up a frame after. When my Shulk Fair is in range of hitting them, it's on frame 16 but the glancing blow appears on frame 17. Any reasoning or is this basically a explanation scenario like with bubble shields being frame 1 but visually appearing on frame 2?

 

[Megamang]

Random guess, does the game have to confirm it missed? If it sparked the frame of hitting the edge of your hitbox, it seems like there would be lots of times when it sparks then hits, which isn't the point of the spark...

 

[Masonomace]

Pretty sure the game confirms that it will miss(?). Most of the time when I'm testing the maximum horizontal range of moves using the Luigi Mansion pillars, I inch close enough & use a move's hitbox to confirm it won't hit but repeatedly get the glancing blow every time I attempt it. I think that I was wrong in my first post about this now that I'm experimenting more with it. The moment I'm within perfect range to get the glancing blow every time, I'll count the frames & then I'll inch closer just so I know I'll hit & count frames again. The hitbox will connect with making some kind of visual hit effect on the same frame the glancing blow would have appeared.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Because you are put into slow motion during Witch Time, does that increase the amount you can SDI?

 

[Megamang]

Maybe technically, but I don't think bayo is gonna be hitting you with SDIable moves. Mostly just smashes, where SDI won't do anything. Maaaybe you could SDI downwards to save yourself a % or two. Also, even if you have more SDI inputs you aren't going anywhere so it won't help.


Also, it seems like her moves themselves aren't slowed down, so the SDI window isn't exactly bigger.

 

[Lavani]

Because you are put into slow motion during Witch Time, does that increase the amount you can SDI?

Being slowed down doesn't increase hitlag, so no.

At the speed you'll be going you aren't outmaneuvering Bayonetta anyway.

 

[Vipermoon]

Maybe technically, but I don't think bayo is gonna be hitting you with SDIable moves. Mostly just smashes, where SDI won't do anything. Maaaybe you could SDI downwards to save yourself a % or two. Also, even if you have more SDI inputs you aren't going anywhere so it won't help.


Also, it seems like her moves themselves aren't slowed down, so the SDI window isn't exactly bigger.

I think the SDI window is bigger. Your hitlag should be much higher than hers due to the slow motion.

Edit: or not

 

[Megamang]

It feels and looks to me like the hits and your reaction to the hits are normal, its just the movement that is encased in jello. Though looks and feels are historically pretty bad ways to go about this. Sonicninja115 I'd give it a few more weeks till everything like this is known. However, I'm curious what you are trying to SDI? Most Bayos I play just F-smash into D-smash gimp, double Usmash or simply charge an U-smash.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It feels and looks to me like the hits and your reaction to the hits are normal, its just the movement that is encased in jello. Though looks and feels are historically pretty bad ways to go about this. Sonicninja115 I'd give it a few more weeks till everything like this is known. However, I'm curious what you are trying to SDI? Most Bayos I play just F-smash into D-smash gimp, double Usmash or simply charge an U-smash.

At lower percents, when you mainly want damage, you can Usmash and then wait for the timer to get low. Once it gets to a certain point, you jump and use Twist or another combo starter. Most of Bayonetta's combos don't kill easily on the ground, but when higher up on the stage they kill easily.

In other words, Twist.

 

[Megamang]

Gotcha. Still feels like 2 usmashes to WTwist you after the slowdown ends is what you'll be seeing.

 

[teluoborg]

When the opponent is at low percents you don't have the time for 3 moves.

 

[Masonomace]

Question about hitlag in throws. If I'm Shulk & I use Fthrow, the first hitbox frame is 15. But when I count frames, I see that hitlag takes place for 6 frames & then the second hitbox frame is 22. The hitlag multiplier is 1.2x, yet Lordwilliam's frame data says second hit is frame 16. Can I get an explanation? Since I'm kinda lost but kinda get it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Question about hitlag in throws. If I'm Shulk & I use Fthrow, the first hitbox frame is 15. But when I count frames, I see that hitlag takes place for 6 frames & then the second hitbox frame is 22. The hitlag multiplier is 1.2x, yet Lordwilliam's frame data says second hit is frame 16. Can I get an explanation? Since I'm kinda lost but kinda get it.

We don't count instances of hitlag for startup and total frames, since hitlag frames are not a part of the move itself. Even though throws themselves are incapable of whiffing and thus always have their hitlag frames, it would be incorrect to include it.

 

[Jeronado]

How does airdodging out of hitstun work? Is there a set number of frames before hitstun ends where you can airdodge or is when you can airdodge related to knockback or something? I've been trying to look into it, but it looks inconsistent to me.

 

[LRodC]

Hey guys, is there an easy formula for rage that I could use for 50, 100, and 150 percent? I'm calculating Mewtwo's up throw kill percents and this would make it a lot easier.

 

[Lavani]

Hey guys, is there an easy formula for rage that I could use for 50, 100, and 150 percent? I'm calculating Mewtwo's up throw kill percents and this would make it a lot easier.

Roughly x1.02, x1.085, and x1.15 KB, respectively.

My current understanding of rage, where x denotes your own percent and y is the multiplier on final knockback,

if x ≤ 35, y = 1
if 36 ≤ x ≤ 150, y = 0.001304x + .954348
if x ≥ 150, y = 1.15

35 (and under) = x1.0
90 = ~x1.07
115 = ~x1.10
150 (and over) = x1.15
etc

EDIT: Though those are pretty awkward numbers. Maybe the actual formula's closer to something like 0.0013x + .955 and rage actually caps just shy of 1.15? I dunno if we really have a way to determine something that precise as it currently stands.

 

[HoSmash4]

NewAnyone know the frame data for ledge canceled BF?
https://gfycat.com/SlowExemplaryGrayfox

 

[Daymaster]

Is there any sort of Hitstun calculator for Smash 4? If there isn't would anyone be able to tell me what the knockback formula is for Smash 4?

http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/
This is geared twords Melee, but since hitstun and knockback formulas are still the same in Smash 4, they should still work.

Also, since there is a two-frame window to C-bounce, would it be possible to use it with other specials?

 

[Cornbrd]

Thought I'd ask here rather than starting a new thread.

I found out when coming up from the ledge jumping you can cancel the momentum by using moves that cancel momentum lol

For example Marth's Counter.

You can jump and then if you time it right you'll land on the stage instantly with no lag into a counter.

I'm guessing this is already a known tech/strategy (if not, cool) is this called anything? Found it very use full and don't see it used enough in tournement play imo.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes, fairly well known. Specials with these properties are also able to cancel grounded jumps. So with moves such as Marth's Counter or Zelda's Nayru's Love, you can actually do them out of shield by jumping out of shield and cancelling those jumpsquat frames into the special.

 

[Lavani]

Yes, fairly well known. Specials with these properties are also able to jump cancel a.k.a. cancel grounded jumps (like Usmashes and Uspecials). So with moves such as Marth's Counter or Zelda's Nayru's Love, you can actually do them out of shield by jumping out of shield and cancelling those jumpsquat frames into the special.

I'm trying this and still getting jumpsquat frames before the special activates.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm trying this and still getting jumpsquat frames before the special activates.

Oh yeah? Something like jump Counter OoS from Marth seems super fast I guess I just assumed it cancelled jumpsquat as well as the jump itself. I shouldn't make assumptions like that, sorry.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Specials that cancel jumpsquat frames are not the same as ones that cut vertical momentum completely. Marth's Counter is an example of the latter, and that is why you can land the way you do from a ledge jump. There are many specials that reduce momentum on activation, but only a few cut it to zero like that. I suspect that is a result of these moves being patched to not make Marth, Ike, etc go flying when they perform counter at certain moments. In order to fix it, they just cut out the move's ability to preserve momentum at all.

That being said, I think I noticed a few specials (not up specials) that cut jumpsquat frames in the past. Charizard's rock smash, Sheik's Bouncing Fish, ZSS Flip Kick. Never tested them with a frame count, just observations I jotted down one day to look at later.

 

[Vipermoon]

Specials that cancel jumpsquat frames are not the same as ones that cut vertical momentum completely. Marth's Counter is an example of the latter, and that is why you can land the way you do from a ledge jump. There are many specials that reduce momentum on activation, but only a few cut it to zero like that. I suspect that is a result of these moves being patched to not make Marth, Ike, etc go flying when they perform counter at certain moments. In order to fix it, they just cut out the move's ability to preserve momentum at all.

That being said, I think I noticed a few specials (not up specials) that cut jumpsquat frames in the past. Charizard's rock smash, Sheik's Bouncing Fish, ZSS Flip Kick. Never tested them with a frame count, just observations I jotted down one day to look at later.

That glitch wasn't remedied by this the creation of this property. I say this because Counter does the same thing in Brawl and Melee

 

[MintChipper]

Do we have a definitive name for buffering a normal and pressing shield when charging something? You know that thing that , , and can do, the Sheik and R.O.B. boards have different names for it, I feel like we should have one name so people don't get confused.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Do we have a definitive name for buffering a normal and pressing shield when charging something? You know that thing that , , and can do, the Sheik and R.O.B. boards have different names for it, I feel like we should have one name so people don't get confused.

I just say "X cancel". Needle cancel, LB Cancel, Gyro cancel, popgun cancel, etc. And doing something out of it or using to halt momentum uses the same name. Only exception being Cloud, where it's the Instant Limit Break Cancel, or ILBC (maybe Sheik's is Instant Needle Cancel). But these are basically the same thing where the only difference is how quick you do it.

 

[Cornbrd]

Looked into it for a bit but didn't get any answers.

What determines the distance of grab release? Doesn't seem to be weight or fast fall which i'd expect. Or is it it's own mechanic?

Edit: i'm thinking it might be relative to Piviot distance

 

[Vipermoon]

Looked into it for a bit but didn't get any answers.

What determines the distance of grab release? Doesn't seem to be weight or fast fall which i'd expect. Or is it it's own mechanic?

Edit: i'm thinking it might be relative to Piviot distance

What I know is that on grab release, Luigi goes nowhere so I'm thinking it could be the inverse of traction?

 

[Masonomace]

Cornbrd Vipermoon First off, air or ground release? I'm assuming ground by the gist of reading the conversation but I wanted to make sure.

 

[Vipermoon]

Now I that see cornbrd mentioned fast fall I think he's talking about air. I was talking about ground.

 

[Cornbrd]

Nah, I meant ground but I figured fast fall might do something for some reason lol

 

[Masonomace]

I do know that when you ground release from a character's grab, you have a set distance of how far you're released. But for educational purposes, I tested a character pummeling & the other character mashing to escape the grab & the result was the character ground released sliding further away than when the character did nothing. It was interesting to say the least, but the frame advantage of a grounded grab release is neutral. So I guess if you wanted to make sure you'd better distance yourself, you'd rise to the opportunity if the grabber was pummeling you before deciding to throw.

 

[Cornbrd]

I like using it for future mix-ups/reads for example if they do a shield on release there's a good chance they'll do it again.

Say i'm Donkey Kong, I can use his side b for good shield pressure/damage.

Or bait jabs etc.

 

[Masonomace]

Right.

Also to anyone, question: Does fully charging a smash attack require 60 frames? 'Cus counting frames comparing Charge Hold & Charge Release made me realize that for Shulk, Charge Release was the amount of startup frames when you fully charged a smash attack.

EDIT: Another question. What would Shulk's footstool jumpsquat be, 7 or 8 frames? I'm Shulk & I'm footstooling for the purpose of trying to find the character's footstool jumpsquat frames. When I count frames & look at the animations, Shulk's footstool jumpsquat on frame 8 looks like his frame 6 short hop after the jumpsquat ends since that is 5 frames. So for Shulk's footstool jumpsquat, frame 8 looks identical but it still looks like Shulk is on their back until frame 9 is where I noticeably start to see Shulk leap off a CPU's back.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Also to anyone, question: Does fully charging a smash attack require 60 frames? 'Cus counting frames comparing Charge Hold & Charge Release made me realize that for Shulk, Charge Release was the amount of startup frames when you fully charged a smash attack.

MK's D-smash starts charging on the first frame so it's easy to check, and yeah, it would appear that it's 60 frames of charge time for him too.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in that next bit though.

EDIT: Another question. What would Shulk's footstool jumpsquat be, 7 or 8 frames? I'm Shulk & I'm footstooling for the purpose of trying to find the character's footstool jumpsquat frames. When I count frames & look at the animations, Shulk's footstool jumpsquat on frame 8 looks like his frame 6 short hop after the jumpsquat ends since that is 5 frames. So for Shulk's footstool jumpsquat, frame 8 looks identical but it still looks like Shulk is on their back until frame 9 is where I noticeably start to see Shulk leap off a CPU's back.

You'd want to test this by buffering a move (e.g. airdodge) during the footstool then skip forwards and note when the character begins that action, then confirm which frame they started it on by looking at frames 1 and 2 of the action. In any case, Shulk's footstool is 7 frames, with actions starting on frame 8. There is no difference for grounded or aerial opponents, or short/full footstools (whatever they're called).

 

[Masonomace]

MK's D-smash starts charging on the first frame so it's easy to check, and yeah, it would appear that it's 60 frames of charge time for him too.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in that next bit though.

You'd want to test this by buffering a move (e.g. airdodge) during the footstool then skip forwards and note when the character begins that action, then confirm which frame they started it on by looking at frames 1 and 2 of the action. In any case, Shulk's footstool is 7 frames, with actions starting on frame 8. There is no difference for grounded or aerial opponents, or short/full footstools (whatever they're called).

Oh my Bionis yes! Thank you Detecitive, I used an input of any kind for the footstool jumpsquat & saw that it shows the input's frame 1 of said action on frame 8. So yeah, Shulk's footstool jumpsquat is 7 frames. The stuff in the next bit is just about what I noticed with the Charge Release once a smash attack was fully charged.

 

[Vipermoon]

MK's D-smash starts charging on the first frame so it's easy to check, and yeah, it would appear that it's 60 frames of charge time for him too.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in that next bit though.

I kind of confused here. There's no way charging a smash attack to maximum takes just 60 frames. If I were to throw a random time out without testing anything, I'd say nearly 2 seconds.

Also, how do smash attack charge times compare to Melee and Brawl? They seem longer than them.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

without testing anything

I think I found your problem.
Also it's not like I tested every smash for every character or anything. I guess it's possible for there to be some variance.
Note, we're talking about pure charge time, as in, not counting the amount of frames it takes to do the actual move before and after the charge period.

 

[Lavani]

Backing Foxy up on this. All of Corrin/Rosa's smashes can be charged for 60 frames. Same as Melee/Brawl's number.

EDIT: Remembered this and finally got around to it, though I used Sheik:

That does give me the idea though that a test could be done with 0% and 150% Palutena jab against Dedede, with a rageless KO percent probably in the 800~900% range it should give a much clearer idea of where the rage ceiling is.

Red lightning percent went ~658%→549% (3ds FD) for 0%→150% with freshness bonus against Sheik, which is around a x1.15 increase in knockback.

However, what intrigues me is the rageless kill percent. If freshness bonus is x1.05 damage and Palu jab triggers red lightning on Sheik at 664% in training, I would've expected 645~646% to be where Sheik shows red lightning outside of training, not 658%. Has it been confirmed that the freshness bonus in Smash 4 is still x1.05?

edit2: testing with Rosa's pummel, it seems to be. Does 3% instead of 2% on every 10th pummel. Unsure why the kill percents don't line up then.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I also support 60 frames, as Corrin's Fsmash charging hit hits every 5 frames for a maximum of 12 hits. Though it wouldn't surprise me if we found a one or two frame variance somewhere in this game, I think we've all used a variety of smash attacks to imagine the same charging window time frame between all of them.

Oh, and this source has data on when charge windows begin, in case anybody was about to ask.