Maximilian Dood: The Golden Era of Smash...IS NOW!

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Time to time, Smashboards covers notable Youtube content creators who make videos on Super Smash Bros. and its community. There’s a lot of great content out there that focuses on competitive play, speculation, modding, information, reactions, and more. Today, we will look at a content creator who really doesn’t need any introduction and, in particular, a video he just published. This person is none other than fighting game enthusiast Maximilian “Maximilian Dood” Christiansen.

Maximilian Dood, aka Max, is known for his love of traditional fighting games such as Street Fighter, King of Fighters, and Mortal Kombat. He is also a fan of Super Smash Bros. and has dedicated many videos to the series. Max has recently released a new video focusing on Smash in what he coins “the Golden Age of Smash” which has caught the community’s attention.

Warning: The video contains offensive language.

It’s also rather amusing he chose to use Byleth clips despite his
lukewarm reception to the reveal trailer.

It’s easy to agree with Max that we’re in the golden age of the series. Everyone is back, and that’s something that we might not ever see again. We have our fan-favorites like Ridley, King K. Rool, and Inklings, and we have characters many thought were impossible like Joker, Banjo & Kazooie, and Terry. There are more songs, stages, items, and modes than you can shake a stick at, and there are new Spirit Events appearing such as the Trials of Mana event. Plus, we are getting future downloadable content with the Fighter’s Pass Vol 2. We are possibly in the best timeline for Smash, and it’s amazing to see. Sure, people get hung up on characters they want not getting in, and people get upset over technical issues like net code or frame data. That’s to be expected with any game and its community though. However, the proof speaks for itself that Smash has one of the greatest rosters in the history of gaming and fittingly celebrates not only the history of Nintendo, but the history of gaming as a whole. It’s great to see Smash recognized for this by not only the Smash community, but the entire gaming community. Anyways, like Max said, let’s enjoy the ride because we might not ever get this again.

Author’s Note: Do you agree with Max that Ultimate is the greatest the series has and can be? What’s your favorite thing about Ultimate? If you enjoyed this Max video, please consider subscribing and watching his other content.
 
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Venus of the Desert Bloom

Comments

Love this dood.

But in all seriousness, I can't help but agree. Topping Ultimate at this rate is like trying to Out-Pizza the Hut: you just can't do that. We're at this point in time where Smash has reached the pinnacle. Do I think support should be continuous? Yes. Do I think it'll happen? No. Sakurai isn't just known for Smash, after all. I'm gonna be real sad if this actually is the honest-to-god final entry in the series, but that's okay because what this Smash game is is in the title: Ultimate. We're never gonna get another Smash game like this, but I won't complain.
 
To be honest the idea of making this game go on and go on and perhaps cross generation, would be a good idea. Just adding stuff and remove other if needed is a smart move. Kind of a free to play for a Nintendo game without the gasha aspect.
 
Maximillian is a dumb consumer ***** who is incapable of critical thought. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in several of his videos, he doesnt criticize things objectively, his thought process always boils down to "this product exists and you can purchase it, therefore it is good".

Smash Ultimate has several glaring issues not the least of which is its focus on quantity over quality, its gameplay has not evolved in almost 20 years and in fact each game feels like it takes two steps backwards for every step forward. Removing content, making netcode worse, making the game more floaty, campy and horrendous to play with laggy controls, and not really capturing any of the characters personalities are just a few of the many egregious things this series does wrong. But, it is Smash, and it exists, and that alone is enough justification in the eyes of many to overlook its many flaws. This game series has become a sacred cow, a pillar of garbage that you are not allowed to criticize.
 
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To be honest the idea of making this game go on and go on and perhaps cross generation, would be a good idea. Just adding stuff and remove other if needed is a smart move. Kind of a free to play for a Nintendo game without the gasha aspect.
I kind of like the idea of Ultimate becoming Nintendo's Street Fighter 2 Turbo, meaning that it's the game that keeps getting re-ported et infinitum to the next console. I would be fine with a hypothetical Smash 6 on the console after the Switch with a cut roster of 20-40 with 5-10 new comers, but with the addition of V moves, underwater stages, a new story mode, Smash run, 12 player Smash, etc etc imagine cool new features, but with the knowledge that Ultimate will get a port that's basically just Ultimate, but adds the 5-10 newcomers from Smash 6 in the Ultimate engine.
 
Maximillian is a dumb consumer ***** who is incapable of critical thought. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in several of his videos, he doesnt criticize things objectively, his thought process always boils down to "this product exists and you can purchase it, therefore it is good".

Smash Ultimate has several glaring issues not the least of which is its focus on quantity over quality, its gameplay has not evolved in almost 20 years and in fact each game feels like it takes two steps backwards for every step forward. Removing content, making netcode worse, making the game more floaty, campy and horrendous to play with laggy controls, and not really capturing any of the characters personalities are just a few of the many egregious things this series does wrong. But, it is Smash, and it exists, and that alone is enough justification in the eyes of many to overlook its many flaws. This game series has become a sacred cow, a pillar of garbage that you are not allowed to criticize.
I think the essence of his point is that the crossover aspect of the game (which is what the franchise is about at it's core) has reached an obscene level that can likely never be topped ever again.

The guy plays Smash with 7 of his friends with FS meter and most of the items on, I don't think the issues with the gameplay nuances for competitive play really apply to his overall opinion. I don't like Ultimate much for it's competitive or online play either, but I think the game does a lot right for the average consumer.

Additionally, to argue that this game doesn't capture character personalities sounds off. This game does that the best out of the entire franchise, are you referring to like an issue with a select couple characters or something?
 
So matter of fact about this. I can easily see a better smash than ultimate and melee. I’ll be too old for it... already an old dog... but I see a bright future for the rest of you.
 
I think the essence of his point is that the crossover aspect of the game (which is what the franchise is about at it's core) has reached an obscene level that can likely never be topped ever again.

The guy plays Smash with 7 of his friends with FS meter and most of the items on, I don't think the issues with the gameplay nuances for competitive play really apply to his overall opinion. I don't like Ultimate much for it's competitive or online play either, but I think the game does a lot right for the average consumer.
Yes, I do think Max is like me in that he only enjoys Smash casually, playing casual matches with his friends and family and only occasionally dabbling in online ranked by himself, but the thing is I think it's all an illusion. Smash has many, MANY glaring flaws once you look past the surface excitement of being able to see all these different franchises in the same game together, which is the reason I think most people forgive its flaws. There are indeed good ASPECTS to Smash, but as someone who has played every game in the series extensively I don't think it has ever gelled into an overall quality experience. Every game has had serious problems with quality and longevity once you look past the surface-level fanboy excitement. Once a new character gets added to Smash, sure there's joy and celebration, but after that they just sort of become "there", the excitement dies down as the character gets absorbed into the Smash biomass, and in the end the game still has the same flaws as before, but now with a new somewhat unexpected character.

This is because, as I said before, once they get added to the biomass of a half-baked high-budget party brawler, they don't really stick out anymore once you look past the surface level. The characters don't interact in any meaningful way, they don't do anything other than punch each other (which, if you read their expressions, is the same regardless of who they're punching - Mario could be punching Link, he could be punching Peach, he could be punching open air, but he never actually acknowledges the other characters in any way with his facial movements, because none of them act like they inhabit the same world, they're basically animated robots doing animations).

Sadly, this is never going to change, because surface-level fanboy excitement is what makes Smash sell, and it is past Nintendo's bottom line to look at making the games actually good. Smash is basically a Funko Pop fighting game right now - it doesn't need to have quality, it just needs to have lots of different crossovers.

Additionally, to argue that this game doesn't capture character personalities sounds off. This game does that the best out of the entire franchise, are you referring to like an issue with a select couple characters or something?
What do you mean? Smash is NOTORIOUS for not capturing the personalities of characters and has been for many years, You think this is just a thing that happens with just a couple of characters? It happens with nearly all of them, starting even at the very TOP with Mario. Mario is portrayed in Smash as an semi-angry shonen warrior type - he doesn't laugh, he only smiles a little, he doesn't have any of his cheerful fun-loving attitude from his home games. Then we have Luigi who is portrayed as a semi-random comic relief coward. DK, K. Rool and Bowser are portrayed and sound like evil beasts. The most infamous example of this is Wario who doesn't have anything from his Wario Land adventure games and had Smash to thank for introducing him as a farting, incompetent clown. In fact many of the character personalities in Smash are outright wrong and the ones that aren't are one of the following personalities:

-Generic shonen anime protagonist
-Comic relief character
-Blank template/soulless

There are exceptions, wherein Sakurai only actually portrays the characters correctly when it's a franchise he particularly likes or had a hand in creating, but other than that his track record on character portrayals is rather terrible.
 
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Yes, I do think Max is like me in that he only enjoys Smash casually, playing casual matches with his friends and family and only occasionally dabbling in online ranked by himself, but the thing is I think it's all an illusion. Smash has many, MANY glaring flaws once you look past the surface excitement of being able to see all these different franchises in the same game together, which is the reason I think most people forgive its flaws. There are indeed good ASPECTS to Smash, but as someone who has played every game in the series extensively I don't think it has ever gelled into an overall quality experience. Every game has had serious problems with quality and longevity once you look past the surface-level fanboy excitement. Once a new character gets added to Smash, sure there's joy and celebration, but after that they just sort of become "there", the excitement dies down as the character gets absorbed into the Smash biomass, and in the end the game still has the same flaws as before, but now with a new somewhat unexpected character.

This is because, as I said before, once they get added to the biomass of a half-baked high-budget party brawler, they don't really stick out anymore once you look past the surface level. The characters don't interact in any meaningful way, they don't do anything other than punch each other (which, if you read their expressions, is the same regardless of who they're punching - Mario could be punching Link, he could be punching Peach, he could be punching open air, but he never actually acknowledges the other characters in any way with his facial movements, because none of them act like they inhabit the same world, they're basically animated robots doing animations).

Sadly, this is never going to change, because surface-level fanboy excitement is what makes Smash sell, and it is past Nintendo's bottom line to look at making the games actually good. Smash is basically a Funko Pop fighting game right now - it doesn't need to have quality, it just needs to have lots of different crossovers.
I mean sure the gameplay isn't my favorite either, but every game is different. If you don't like it you can surely play something different, not like it's gonna be fixed in a patch or something. At least it's balance is a hell lot better than the other titles, being able to feasibly play anybody for the most part is a very welcome change. Even if most of the characters feel samey in a lot of ways.

I can't really give a good response for what you want as a "lasting" form of excitement. Remember when they put Alien vs Predator in Mortal Kombat X? Or how the TMNT are all in Injustice 2? Link in Soul Calibur 2? Geese in Tekken 7? Cloud in Smash for Wii U / 3DS?
These are all really cool guest character appearances, but what in the world do you want these game developers to do to make this excitement lasting? It's a fighting game, they are literally being added/absorbed to the roster. This is a fundamental flaw of downloadable content in a game.
What I'm reading here is that you want the characters to interact more, which yeah, I think everyone would agree is something they want. The nature of Smash Brothers doesn't really let you get to see the characters interact within the game itself. But seeing as the game was originally meant to be a kid playing with their toys, the game leaves it to you to get the characters to interact using features like taking pictures while pausing. And even if you think the game shouldn't force the player to play the game to make the characters appear to interact in a crossover, good applications of it can be very charming.

IMO, it really sounds like you either want Smash to be in a different format that allows things like character intro lines or just a whole story mode so you can watch the characters interact (which i mean, we still at least have most of the fighter trailers which are still nice). Because you're just not going to get the same level of detail in any fighting game. Mortal Kombat 11 still lets you fatality family members and them not caring about brutally mutilating their loved ones. Why? Because it's a ****ing video game man. I don't get what you want out of it. The characters look like robots in those scenario because they literally are puppets you are controlling. At least within the context of smash, the franchise is meant to be a kid playing with toys anyways. Iunno how you explain Johnny Cage opening up his Daughter's rib cage with his barehands whilst making a The Shining reference. :U

and as for changing the way the game is, the fact that the characters can feel so disconnected from each other is a reason WHY they can add such a ludicrous amount of content. no need to bring back 60+ VAs to read 5 lines fighting this new character. That's just more money and headaches to work around for a team. The flexibility helps more content come out at a faster rate.
What do you mean? Smash is NOTORIOUS for not capturing the personalities of characters and has been for many years, You think this is just a thing that happens with just a couple of characters? It happens with nearly all of them, starting even at the very TOP with Mario. Mario is portrayed in Smash as an semi-angry shonen warrior type - he doesn't laugh, he only smiles a little, he doesn't have any of his cheerful fun-loving attitude from his home games. Then we have Luigi who is portrayed as a semi-random comic relief coward. DK, K. Rool and Bowser are portrayed and sound like evil beasts. The most infamous example of this is Wario who doesn't have anything from his Wario Land adventure games and had Smash to thank for introducing him as a farting, incompetent clown. In fact many of the character personalities in Smash are outright wrong and the ones that aren't are one of the following personalities:

-Generic shonen anime protagonist
-Comic relief character
-Blank template/soulless

There are exceptions, wherein Sakurai only actually portrays the characters correctly when it's a franchise he particularly likes or had a hand in creating, but other than that his track record on character portrayals is rather terrible.
The Mario characters are considered by Miyamoto to be a "troupe of actors" so I don't get why seeing them play a role given to them in a fighting game is weird. They adapt to the role the game provides for them, it's something they do in every game they are in.
The Donkey Kong characters are designed after the original DKC, where they are quite literally portrayed as animals. So I don't understand why it is weird to see King K. Rool also portrayed animalistic when the other characters are literally meant to act like animals too.
Bowser probably still harkens a lot of inspiration from Super Mario 64, where he literally sounds like Godzilla (which im sure is actually in an interview somewhere that bowser takes after his 64 appearance).
and I'm sure Wario is a character you want to be tough money-hungry guy like Land games portray them but they went after what the developers themselves liken Wario to be, gross and wacky.
You do know he says he talks to the creators of characters when incorporating them, right? I don't think any character really gets given a whole new personality or something unless the character has no personality to speak from because they appeared once in a NES game.

like i would like donkey kong to say "ok" after spiking wario and when he dies he says "oh my god!", but its not like the way they are portrayed doesnt already make sense.
just because you'd prefer a character to act a certain way doesn't mean it is inherently bad or wrong
 
I mean sure the gameplay isn't my favorite either, but every game is different. If you don't like it you can surely play something different, not like it's gonna be fixed in a patch or something. At least it's balance is a hell lot better than the other titles, being able to feasibly play anybody for the most part is a very welcome change. Even if most of the characters feel samey in a lot of ways.
I can't speak to Ultimate's balance as I got fed up with it and stopped playing months ago, but I don't really see how a game with a 70+ character roster can possibly be balanced, and indeed from what I played that really isn't the case. Some characters are still using outdated kit from Smash 64/Melee that makes them borderline useless, while the DLC characters border on broken with their gimmicks. Sword characters all eat heavyweights alive, some characters are just stupidly overpowered for no real reason (like Pichu), and Sakurai's idea of "balancing" involves taking a move that sucks and making it do 999% damage and knockback. This what he considers an okay workaround.

I can't really give a good response for what you want as a "lasting" form of excitement. Remember when they put Alien vs Predator in Mortal Kombat X? Or how the TMNT are all in Injustice 2? Link in Soul Calibur 2? Geese in Tekken 7? Cloud in Smash for Wii U / 3DS?
These are all really cool guest character appearances, but what in the world do you want these game developers to do to make this excitement lasting? It's a fighting game, they are literally being added/absorbed to the roster. This is a fundamental flaw of downloadable content in a game.
This is part of the problem. Guest characters have become so prevalent, not just in Smash but in every fighting game, that they just kinda... stopped being exciting. Especially since the only real hyped "megastar" pick of the first DLC volume was Banjo, everyone else is relatively obscure in most regions. I'm just numb to every reveal now. The magic is gone for me. I haven't found any of the characters truly exciting since Bayonetta.

I'd have an easier time getting excited if they actually did more with the characters and let them interact with each other in various ways, and not just have them absorbed into the biomass. I have many ideas for what they could do but I don't think they'd ever do any of them. Part of it requires overhauling Smash's gameplay just a little bit, because let's face it, this series is stagnant. It hasn't had any major changes to its gameplay since the addition of side specials in Melee. And no, Final Smashes and FS meters do not count. They basically just amount to nothing more than a really powerful item. They are not game-changing mechanics, and they can be turned off.

I'm not a big fan of MK but I think the reason MK guest characters are so exciting is because they go the extra mile to give them lots of fanservice, they do as much as they possibly can with the properties they're given. Not just special dialogue with every character (which is commendable in itself), but also lots of gameplay variation, costumes, sometimes special content like stages. They do as much as they can to make it seem like these characters really are occupying the same world space.

What I'm reading here is that you want the characters to interact more, which yeah, I think everyone would agree is something they want. The nature of Smash Brothers doesn't really let you get to see the characters interact within the game itself. But seeing as the game was originally meant to be a kid playing with their toys, the game leaves it to you to get the characters to interact using features like taking pictures while pausing. And even if you think the game shouldn't force the player to play the game to make the characters appear to interact in a crossover, good applications of it can be very charming.
I don't really care about this "kid playing with toys" narrative they're going for. It amounts to nothing more than a really lame excuse as to why they're not doing any of this. And it's also contradicted by the actual attempts at a story in several of the games.

What they need here is not just conflict, but also banter. And I don't just mean characters quipping at each other, I mean they could also actually play up the interaction between different game worlds. Like maybe the reason Olimar is no longer a tiny bug man is because he was hungry and ate a piece of a mega mushroom from the Mario world that made him "giant". There's potential for lots of interesting things here, but they don't ever bother, and throw many excuses as to why. "Other developers might not want to play ball." Then do it with your own franchises. Or maybe show them good faith that you'll portray their characters well. "Oh, it would be too difficult/expensive." You're Nintendo, you're not some struggling ambitious indie dev, you have the resources to hire all the talent you need. "It's not what Smash fans are used to". Boohoo. This is the worst excuse of the bunch. It's honestly alarming that they don't ever evolve the series or even fix any problems with it and just keep adding new problems to it because they 'don't want to alienate fans who like things they way they are'.

Honestly the biggest problem is that, more often than not, it's the FANS creating and using all these garbage excuses for Nintendo. Nintendo never makes any official statements that these are the reasons why they can't do it. The real reason they don't do anything with Smash other than throw DLC bones to the wind is because they just want easy money.

IMO, it really sounds like you either want Smash to be in a different format that allows things like character intro lines or just a whole story mode so you can watch the characters interact (which i mean, we still at least have most of the fighter trailers which are still nice). Because you're just not going to get the same level of detail in any fighting game. Mortal Kombat 11 still lets you fatality family members and them not caring about brutally mutilating their loved ones. Why? Because it's a ****ing video game man. I don't get what you want out of it. The characters look like robots in those scenario because they literally are puppets you are controlling. At least within the context of smash, the franchise is meant to be a kid playing with toys anyways. Iunno how you explain Johnny Cage opening up his Daughter's rib cage with his barehands whilst making a The Shining reference. :U
I don't see what any of this has to do with what I said. Mortal Kombat is what it is, as I said, I don't like that series that much but I'm just commending them for how much fanservice they manage to put into it.

You don't get the same level of detail in any fighting game? Funny, Tekken 7 managed to make Akuma from Street Fighter an integral part of its story. Every game with guest characters has character trailers. With how prevalent guests are they are opening things up more so that they do more with them than just basic trailers.

and as for changing the way the game is, the fact that the characters can feel so disconnected from each other is a reason WHY they can add such a ludicrous amount of content. no need to bring back 60+ VAs to read 5 lines fighting this new character. That's just more money and headaches to work around for a team. The flexibility helps more content come out at a faster rate.
That's not really a "headache", they can do that quite easily, contracting VAs to come back and do a few extra lines is not at all an issue, it's always something planned for.

And this is part of the problem, they're more focused on quantity over quality. It's like how the Simpsons is still on the air after 3 decades despite losing all its quality after season 8. They're just doing it to say they can, to break records that no one else is claiming. It's a selling point for Smash even though a lot of it is chaff and actually hurts the game, preventing it from being a more focused, polished and refined game. Lots of these characters were redundant and didn't need to come back, they brought them back anyways, they added a bunch of new echo characters, some of which were highly requested newcomers, in lieu of giving them proper movesets because they had to make the content easy and quick to release. If I may paraphrase Hank Hill, I don't want them to do it fast, I want them to do it right.

The Mario characters are considered by Miyamoto to be a "troupe of actors" so I don't get why seeing them play a role given to them in a fighting game is weird. They adapt to the role the game provides for them, it's something they do in every game they are in.
He can believe what he wants. He's wrong. Just because Miyamoto says this doesn't make it true.

Mario characters are a worldwide phenomenon and have established personalities after decades of portrayals across various media. What he believes is irrelevant as it's no longer in his control. What Mario appears as to the public is what he actually is - it's the global audience that decides Mario's personality now, not Miyamoto. And anyone can tell you that his portrayal in Smash is peculiar and alien to the character, it's not what they're used to him being. Mario has never been an edgy warrior. In every multimedia portrayal of his, he is seen as sort of a "friendly uncle" type, the kind who regularly makes puns and dad jokes so lame you just have to laugh. This is not at all how he is portrayed in Smash. And you asked which character portrayals in Smash are wrong, I told you which ones are wrong. Nearly every one of them is wrong unless it's a franchise that Sakurai likes or had a hand in making.

The Donkey Kong characters are designed after the original DKC, where they are quite literally portrayed as animals. So I don't understand why it is weird to see King K. Rool also portrayed animalistic when the other characters are literally meant to act like animals too.
DKC portrays them as goofy cartoon animals, not realistic ones. They express themselves with goofy cartoon antics and exaggerated reactions to things going on around them. And K. Rool was never portrayed as an animal, he was always portrayed as a bizarre, fat despot type with a too-proud-of-himself personality.

Bowser probably still harkens a lot of inspiration from Super Mario 64, where he literally sounds like Godzilla (which im sure is actually in an interview somewhere that bowser takes after his 64 appearance).
and I'm sure Wario is a character you want to be tough money-hungry guy like Land games portray them but they went after what the developers themselves liken Wario to be, gross and wacky.
You do know he says he talks to the creators of characters when incorporating them, right? I don't think any character really gets given a whole new personality or something unless the character has no personality to speak from because they appeared once in a NES game.

like i would like donkey kong to say "ok" after spiking wario and when he dies he says "oh my god!", but its not like the way they are portrayed doesnt already make sense.
just because you'd prefer a character to act a certain way doesn't mean it is inherently bad or wrong
Again. You asked which characters have "incorrect" portrayals in Smash. I answered, and rather than accepting this, you simply handwaved it away and made excuses for why they're portrayed incorrectly. Everything you've said here is nothing but an excuse. The whole reason they have brands and brand identities is PRECISELY because we expect the characters to act a certain way, because that's what makes people say they can know the character. So when Smash throws all that out the window, you can make excuses for it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the characters have been totally altered and are therefore more unfamiliar than they should be. The Wario in Smash is not the Wario I know from the WL games. Same with Mario, Peach, DK and a whole bunch of other characters. They're completely alternate characters wearing skins that make them look like the same characters.
 
Yes, I do think Max is like me in that he only enjoys Smash casually, playing casual matches with his friends and family and only occasionally dabbling in online ranked by himself, but the thing is I think it's all an illusion. Smash has many, MANY glaring flaws once you look past the surface excitement of being able to see all these different franchises in the same game together, which is the reason I think most people forgive its flaws. There are indeed good ASPECTS to Smash, but as someone who has played every game in the series extensively I don't think it has ever gelled into an overall quality experience. Every game has had serious problems with quality and longevity once you look past the surface-level fanboy excitement. Once a new character gets added to Smash, sure there's joy and celebration, but after that they just sort of become "there", the excitement dies down as the character gets absorbed into the Smash biomass, and in the end the game still has the same flaws as before, but now with a new somewhat unexpected character.

This is because, as I said before, once they get added to the biomass of a half-baked high-budget party brawler, they don't really stick out anymore once you look past the surface level. The characters don't interact in any meaningful way, they don't do anything other than punch each other (which, if you read their expressions, is the same regardless of who they're punching - Mario could be punching Link, he could be punching Peach, he could be punching open air, but he never actually acknowledges the other characters in any way with his facial movements, because none of them act like they inhabit the same world, they're basically animated robots doing animations).

Sadly, this is never going to change, because surface-level fanboy excitement is what makes Smash sell, and it is past Nintendo's bottom line to look at making the games actually good. Smash is basically a Funko Pop fighting game right now - it doesn't need to have quality, it just needs to have lots of different crossovers.



What do you mean? Smash is NOTORIOUS for not capturing the personalities of characters and has been for many years, You think this is just a thing that happens with just a couple of characters? It happens with nearly all of them, starting even at the very TOP with Mario. Mario is portrayed in Smash as an semi-angry shonen warrior type - he doesn't laugh, he only smiles a little, he doesn't have any of his cheerful fun-loving attitude from his home games. Then we have Luigi who is portrayed as a semi-random comic relief coward. DK, K. Rool and Bowser are portrayed and sound like evil beasts. The most infamous example of this is Wario who doesn't have anything from his Wario Land adventure games and had Smash to thank for introducing him as a farting, incompetent clown. In fact many of the character personalities in Smash are outright wrong and the ones that aren't are one of the following personalities:

-Generic shonen anime protagonist
-Comic relief character
-Blank template/soulless

There are exceptions, wherein Sakurai only actually portrays the characters correctly when it's a franchise he particularly likes or had a hand in creating, but other than that his track record on character portrayals is rather terrible.
You realize that in Japan, Wario has always been about gross out fart humor, right?
 
I can't speak to Ultimate's balance as I got fed up with it and stopped playing months ago, but I don't really see how a game with a 70+ character roster can possibly be balanced, and indeed from what I played that really isn't the case. Some characters are still using outdated kit from Smash 64/Melee that makes them borderline useless, while the DLC characters border on broken with their gimmicks. Sword characters all eat heavyweights alive, some characters are just stupidly overpowered for no real reason (like Pichu), and Sakurai's idea of "balancing" involves taking a move that sucks and making it do 999% damage and knockback. This what he considers an okay workaround.



This is part of the problem. Guest characters have become so prevalent, not just in Smash but in every fighting game, that they just kinda... stopped being exciting. Especially since the only real hyped "megastar" pick of the first DLC volume was Banjo, everyone else is relatively obscure in most regions. I'm just numb to every reveal now. The magic is gone for me. I haven't found any of the characters truly exciting since Bayonetta.

I'd have an easier time getting excited if they actually did more with the characters and let them interact with each other in various ways, and not just have them absorbed into the biomass. I have many ideas for what they could do but I don't think they'd ever do any of them. Part of it requires overhauling Smash's gameplay just a little bit, because let's face it, this series is stagnant. It hasn't had any major changes to its gameplay since the addition of side specials in Melee. And no, Final Smashes and FS meters do not count. They basically just amount to nothing more than a really powerful item. They are not game-changing mechanics, and they can be turned off.

I'm not a big fan of MK but I think the reason MK guest characters are so exciting is because they go the extra mile to give them lots of fanservice, they do as much as they possibly can with the properties they're given. Not just special dialogue with every character (which is commendable in itself), but also lots of gameplay variation, costumes, sometimes special content like stages. They do as much as they can to make it seem like these characters really are occupying the same world space.



I don't really care about this "kid playing with toys" narrative they're going for. It amounts to nothing more than a really lame excuse as to why they're not doing any of this. And it's also contradicted by the actual attempts at a story in several of the games.

What they need here is not just conflict, but also banter. And I don't just mean characters quipping at each other, I mean they could also actually play up the interaction between different game worlds. Like maybe the reason Olimar is no longer a tiny bug man is because he was hungry and ate a piece of a mega mushroom from the Mario world that made him "giant". There's potential for lots of interesting things here, but they don't ever bother, and throw many excuses as to why. "Other developers might not want to play ball." Then do it with your own franchises. Or maybe show them good faith that you'll portray their characters well. "Oh, it would be too difficult/expensive." You're Nintendo, you're not some struggling ambitious indie dev, you have the resources to hire all the talent you need. "It's not what Smash fans are used to". Boohoo. This is the worst excuse of the bunch. It's honestly alarming that they don't ever evolve the series or even fix any problems with it and just keep adding new problems to it because they 'don't want to alienate fans who like things they way they are'.

Honestly the biggest problem is that, more often than not, it's the FANS creating and using all these garbage excuses for Nintendo. Nintendo never makes any official statements that these are the reasons why they can't do it. The real reason they don't do anything with Smash other than throw DLC bones to the wind is because they just want easy money.



I don't see what any of this has to do with what I said. Mortal Kombat is what it is, as I said, I don't like that series that much but I'm just commending them for how much fanservice they manage to put into it.

You don't get the same level of detail in any fighting game? Funny, Tekken 7 managed to make Akuma from Street Fighter an integral part of its story. Every game with guest characters has character trailers. With how prevalent guests are they are opening things up more so that they do more with them than just basic trailers.



That's not really a "headache", they can do that quite easily, contracting VAs to come back and do a few extra lines is not at all an issue, it's always something planned for.

And this is part of the problem, they're more focused on quantity over quality. It's like how the Simpsons is still on the air after 3 decades despite losing all its quality after season 8. They're just doing it to say they can, to break records that no one else is claiming. It's a selling point for Smash even though a lot of it is chaff and actually hurts the game, preventing it from being a more focused, polished and refined game. Lots of these characters were redundant and didn't need to come back, they brought them back anyways, they added a bunch of new echo characters, some of which were highly requested newcomers, in lieu of giving them proper movesets because they had to make the content easy and quick to release. If I may paraphrase Hank Hill, I don't want them to do it fast, I want them to do it right.



He can believe what he wants. He's wrong. Just because Miyamoto says this doesn't make it true.

Mario characters are a worldwide phenomenon and have established personalities after decades of portrayals across various media. What he believes is irrelevant as it's no longer in his control. What Mario appears as to the public is what he actually is - it's the global audience that decides Mario's personality now, not Miyamoto. And anyone can tell you that his portrayal in Smash is peculiar and alien to the character, it's not what they're used to him being. Mario has never been an edgy warrior. In every multimedia portrayal of his, he is seen as sort of a "friendly uncle" type, the kind who regularly makes puns and dad jokes so lame you just have to laugh. This is not at all how he is portrayed in Smash. And you asked which character portrayals in Smash are wrong, I told you which ones are wrong. Nearly every one of them is wrong unless it's a franchise that Sakurai likes or had a hand in making.



DKC portrays them as goofy cartoon animals, not realistic ones. They express themselves with goofy cartoon antics and exaggerated reactions to things going on around them. And K. Rool was never portrayed as an animal, he was always portrayed as a bizarre, fat despot type with a too-proud-of-himself personality.



Again. You asked which characters have "incorrect" portrayals in Smash. I answered, and rather than accepting this, you simply handwaved it away and made excuses for why they're portrayed incorrectly. Everything you've said here is nothing but an excuse. The whole reason they have brands and brand identities is PRECISELY because we expect the characters to act a certain way, because that's what makes people say they can know the character. So when Smash throws all that out the window, you can make excuses for it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the characters have been totally altered and are therefore more unfamiliar than they should be. The Wario in Smash is not the Wario I know from the WL games. Same with Mario, Peach, DK and a whole bunch of other characters. They're completely alternate characters wearing skins that make them look like the same characters.
The balance exists because every character is generally good at a very specific thing and mostly everybody has either absurd frame data or power. The game is designed to feel overpowered, because players generally enjoy feeling overpowered. I mean casually it's balanced well, and competitively at least I have a gimmick if I play worse than average character.

You want characters to interact more, Smash does that exclusively through it's story mode and fighter trailers. If you want the characters to do more together, that leads to the game needing to be completely redesigned or them fluffing up more victory quotes vs other characters (like the Star Fox / Kid Icarus / Fire Emblem characters, but with characters from different ip obv). And yeah, I agree NetherRealm Guest Fighters mesh well into their game's universe because they literally interact via dialogue. Their newest fighter RoboCop is interwoven with the game's lore because he claims to be chasing Kano. So he has many intros with other characters referring to the story that motivates the characters to interact is literally what you are looking for with the story/banter. A good story has banter inherently, and the way smash as a franchise is designed does not allow that to occur. Hell, the coolest crossover thing about smash (aside from like, the characters just officially standing next to each other) are the conversations found on Shadow Moses Island and Palutena's Temple (which plays into that banter is the best part). -Additionally, your example of Akuma being integrated into the STORY of Tekken 7 is literally the reason why he meshes well in that world. Writing how and why characters interact is a key aspect of what makes the best crossovers the best. Everything you're really speaking to wanting the game to be as a Crossover Fighter stems from wanting it to have good writing, or any for that matter. and to it's credit, at least the trailers have been pretty good for ultimate. lamest probably being joker and byleths's because the characters literally dont interact in them.

As for the characters not being accurate thing, think what you want on the characters, that's your opinion. But when Sakurai asks the creator of Mario how he wants Mario to act in the fighting game, I think he has the most accurate opinion of the depiction if he had to think of it. what do you think bowser's character should be then? between the way he acts in 64 (the actual depiction in smash for the most part), sunshine, galaxy, odyssey, the rpg games, and the sports games? the guy shifts the way he acts for every role he plays. because the mario characters are supposed to alter to whatever role they're given.
just because miyamoto's answer is "i like to let the characters be whatever i want them to be for each game", it doesn't mean it's wrong lol. I think letting a character's fans decide how a character should progress generally can lead to some bad things to happen.
And your DKC argument is so backsided because they literally still are exaggerated and make goofy expression with cartoon antics (like literally look at their faces for anything they do, and diddy/k rool are the epitome of cartoon antics). the only animalistic thing k. rool does is his dash (which is just to mimic dk) and one of his taunts (his voice too i guess, but thats just so he and the kongs arent so weirdly different). you cant win that argument on him, he's literally has the most smash fan made moveset in the entire roster. you literally sound like you dont like two things about it, which then means the whole thing is wrong because you don't like the two things.

you don't have to like the game or think it's does any of the crossover stuff well but i think harking on what you think justifies as a "good" character depiction is subjective. i think its fine, maybe id do a thing or two differently for a couple characters but they still depict the fighters well enough for the most part.

smash really could use a full reboot, though i fear characters like ness, falcon, and puff may not return if they didnt have the same legacy carrying them to make it back.
 
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The balance exists because every character is generally good at a very specific thing and mostly everybody has either absurd frame data or power. The game is designed to feel overpowered, because players generally enjoy feeling overpowered. I mean casually it's balanced well, and competitively at least I have a gimmick if I play worse than average character.
That's not the issue. Inevitably a fighting game with a huge roster is going to face balance problems because for every character that gets added they increase the number of possible matchups by an exponential factor. There is no chance at all that Smash Ultimate is balanced and likely will end with tons of broken things dominating the meta. But, I am not a competitive Smash player and have no interest in being one, so I'll leave that topic for the guys who do care. A character feeling powerful is fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are powerful in the long term. Marvel vs Capcom 3 had tons of characters with ludicrous broken options that still were rendered irrelevant by the game's end state.

You want characters to interact more, Smash does that exclusively through it's story mode and fighter trailers. If you want the characters to do more together, that leads to the game needing to be completely redesigned or them fluffing up more victory quotes vs other characters (like the Star Fox / Kid Icarus / Fire Emblem characters, but with characters from different ip obv).
Every game with guest characters has fighter trailers. That's not the same as actually compelling in-game content. In the Smash trailers they barely interact at all, maybe they get some cheesy lines of dialogue if they're lucky but there is no real interaction happening between the characters, just base level reactions. If anything this is actually worse because they usually tease some sort of narrative occurring that never actually happens.

I am totally in favor of Smash getting redesigned. This isn't a problem. Not sure why you're bringing it up like it's an issue. Why do you think it shouldn't be redesigned? There are many glaring flaws with the game that are holdovers from Melee. The N64 vets are still using their outdated 64 movesets, Ganondorf is still a semi clone, and Pichu... exists. The game needed an overhaul a decade ago. Do you really believe it should just go on forever like this? Just more of the exact same bland and outdated game but you just think "it's better because there's more characters"?

As for the characters not being accurate thing, think what you want on the characters, that's your opinion. But when Sakurai asks the creator of Mario how he wants Mario to act in the fighting game, I think he has the most accurate opinion of the depiction if he had to think of it. what do you think bowser's character should be then? between the way he acts in 64 (the actual depiction in smash for the most part), sunshine, galaxy, odyssey, the rpg games, and the sports games? the guy shifts the way he acts for every role he plays. because the mario characters are supposed to alter to whatever role they're given.
I don't think Sakurai asks what Mario's personality should be, all the evidence suggests that he mostly does his own thing in his own twisted sense of 'paying homage', and he feels that Mario is a blank slate character which allows him to make Mario act completely opposite and different to any of his other official depictions. He certainly doesn't do it with all the characters since as we established most of them do not act in any way at all like their original selves and now you're moving the goalposts trying to say "well that's justified because so and so".

Bowser always acts like a brutish cartoon villain in every depiction he's had in the Mario games, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. He always displays the same personality, sort of like a big bully goofball villain character who just takes what he wants, similar to Pete from Mickey Mouse. His portrayal in Smash is incorrect but it isn't even one of the more upsetting examples. I think the worst examples of this are the Mario Bros, and Wario. Smash is responsible for ruining Wario, one of my favorite Nintendo characters, with crude humor and completely ignoring the wealth of gameplay potential he showed from his series of platformers. In the first Warioware game he displayed a lot of his original personality and after Brawl happened it poisoned his character, eroding away his original personality to make him a stupid and worthless fart joke character. Truthfully I've always had resentment towards Smash and Sakurai for doing this, and it's apparent that he never learns from his mistakes and keeps doing worse and worse things to the point where I wonder why anyone bothers being a fan of his. All Sakurai ever does is troll the audience and let people get at each other's throats, not caring how it affects the community, because the trolling comes from the top down - if Sakurai is able to troll everyone then why shouldn't the community also act like trolls to each other? It's justified in everyone's eyes because the guy in charge does it all the time, and no one's allowed to criticize him or Smash because it is a sacred cow that's been too successful for its own good.

just because miyamoto's answer is "i like to let the characters be whatever i want them to be for each game", it doesn't mean it's wrong lol. I think letting a character's fans decide how a character should progress generally can lead to some bad things to happen.
Bad things... like what? You honestly think the fans don't know what they want? You think they're gonna ruin it just because there are a handful of degenerates in the audience who are the exception and not the norm? I think fans whose hearts are in the right place are the perfect way to decide how a series should go.

The only reason Miyamoto has freedom is because his vision tends to align with how Nintendo wants the character to be marketed. This gives the illusion that he has free reign with the character but in reality he doesn't have TRUE freedom with it. If one day a conflict of interest happened between Miyamoto and Nintendo, god forbid that should ever happen, they'd show him the door, just the same as they would with anyone else.

Sakurai is forgiven for going a completely different direction with Mario in Smash because Smash has been more than a little bit successful, but there is a reason Nintendo doesn't use the Smash version of Mario in their marketing. Nintendo was barely okay with the idea of Mario beating up on Peach and Luigi and in case you haven't noticed they have been very careful about how they've advertised Smash because they didn't want any upsetting imagery that conflicted with how they want their characters to be seen.

And your DKC argument is so backsided because they literally still are exaggerated and make goofy expression with cartoon antics (like literally look at their faces for anything they do, and diddy/k rool are the epitome of cartoon antics). the only animalistic thing k. rool does is his dash (which is just to mimic dk) and one of his taunts (his voice too i guess, but thats just so he and the kongs arent so weirdly different). you cant win that argument on him, he's literally has the most smash fan made moveset in the entire roster. you literally sound like you dont like two things about it, which then means the whole thing is wrong because you don't like the two things.
Let me elaborate; in the games they do more than just have silly faces. They are able to communicate with each other not just through spoken dialogue (although they do have that as well) but their mannerisms. In Smash it's hard to even tell if these characters are sapient. Which is fine, I guess, because at the end of the day they are animals, but I still think more could be done with them. A good example of this is Donkey Kong's portrayal in Punch Out Wii. DK isn't talking, but he still has a lot more expression and personality than his Smash counterpart. He legitimately seems like a big goofy ape that's laughing and playing around with Mac and not taking the fight seriously.

you don't have to like the game or think it's does any of the crossover stuff well but i think harking on what you think justifies as a "good" character depiction is subjective. i think its fine, maybe id do a thing or two differently for a couple characters but they still depict the fighters well enough for the most part.
So far this conversation has consisted of me saying that the character portrayals are wrong, you asking how they were wrong, me listing various examples, and you tacitly agreeing with me that they are indeed portrayed wrong but it's still justified and okay because you said so.

You like Smash, you like how the characters I portrayed. I don't. I think they're completely wrong. And the reality is that most of them are in fact portrayed differently than their home game appearances. You're free to like them but the fact remains they're literally not the same characters. Smash DK does not act the same as Tropical Freeze DK. Smash Mario does not act the same as Odyssey Mario. Sakurai does what he will with them regardless because he has his own vision to adhere to, and Nintendo and the fans can't say anything because of how successful Smash has been, but that doesn't mean Sakurai's portrayals aren't incorrect.

What Smash needs is more input than just his, especially if it's going to be this big unprecedented crossover with dozens of third party IP. Just purely hypothetically, I'm developing games - if my games ever became big and got requested to be in Smash, I don't think I'd be comfortable just leaving my characters in his hands without my personal input. I would really not be down with that. It's like leaving your kids in the hands of a stranger who you know has a reputation for being a troll. It's a recipe for disaster and I'm surprised it's gone as well as it has thus far, which isn't stellar by any means. Smash has lots of problems.

smash really could use a full reboot, though i fear characters like ness, falcon, and puff may not return if they didnt have the same legacy carrying them to make it back.
Good. Falcon I don't mind but I hate those other two. I'm not saying I'd remove them, but I wouldn't weep for their absence.
 
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That's not the issue. Inevitably a fighting game with a huge roster is going to face balance problems because for every character that gets added they increase the number of possible matchups by an exponential factor. There is no chance at all that Smash Ultimate is balanced and likely will end with tons of broken things dominating the meta. But, I am not a competitive Smash player and have no interest in being one, so I'll leave that topic for the guys who do care. A character feeling powerful is fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are powerful in the long term. Marvel vs Capcom 3 had tons of characters with ludicrous broken options that still were rendered irrelevant by the game's end state.
ok? but in mvc3 any character can feasibly work with the right team synergy. some characters just outclass others, ultimate is the same. it's what makes the game "balanced".
Every game with guest characters has fighter trailers. That's not the same as actually compelling in-game content. In the Smash trailers they barely interact at all, maybe they get some cheesy lines of dialogue if they're lucky but there is no real interaction happening between the characters, just base level reactions. If anything this is actually worse because they usually tease some sort of narrative occurring that never actually happens.

I am totally in favor of Smash getting redesigned. This isn't a problem. Not sure why you're bringing it up like it's an issue. Why do you think it shouldn't be redesigned? There are many glaring flaws with the game that are holdovers from Melee. The N64 vets are still using their outdated 64 movesets, Ganondorf is still a semi clone, and Pichu... exists. The game needed an overhaul a decade ago. Do you really believe it should just go on forever like this? Just more of the exact same bland and outdated game but you just think "it's better because there's more characters"?
have you actually watched other character reveal trailers for most games? they're all comprised of in-game footage you see playing the game. The smash trailers are cg cutscenes that tend to have some character interaction (banjo/k. rool/incineroar/etc.) It's the only reason I would bring it up, because it's one of the three places they actually do the crossover stuff you're complaining about the game not having. The only outliers that also do this coming to mind are like Tekken 7, MvC:3, and Street Fighter x Tekken (granted, they all do them way better because they either are far more cinematic or contain character dialogue).

The only negative aspect of Smash doing a reboot is that it holds grounds to destroy the 80 character roster of fighters, because it obviously will. Characters will be rebuilt from the ground-up, no longer be shackled to their 64/GCN/Wii/etc.-era designs. Which brings me to respond to this:
So far this conversation has consisted of me saying that the character portrayals are wrong, you asking how they were wrong, me listing various examples, and you tacitly agreeing with me that they are indeed portrayed wrong but it's still justified and okay because you said so.
You sure it's not me explaining why they are the way they are and you saying it's wrong because you say so? Because they're still an accurate way to portray the character lol, it's just outdated.
There are small efforts made to update them, such as in Bowser and Yoshi's changes made from Brawl to 3DS/Wii U or how the Zelda characters change in appearance between games, but these are minuscule and they rarely make huge changes to the actual core designs of the fighters.
They don't because doing that makes people LOSE the characters players have grown up playing as for decades. I know YOU don't care, but other people do. Why do you think Ganondorf took three games to get unique smash attacks from Captain Falcon? They don't change characters for people that used to play them in the older game, it's basically a constant in like every subsequent fighting game release.
And I can't argue characters that are clones are portrayed the same way as if they weren't clones, but that's just a byproduct of how game dev works, which you oughta know. Ganon is stuck the way he is until a reboot happens because Sakurai isn't comfortable completely alienating players Ganon players. And I don't think that mindset will allow him personally to reboot the franchise, it'll have to be helmed by someone else (which is something you want because you dont like his design philosophy anyways).

sidenote
I don't get your tangent on Smash Mario not being used in advertising for other things, because they literally don't use Smash anybody in their advertising outside of Smash?? and i mean, why would you even use smash mario? mario mario is more popular anyways??
i mean i agree mario would be designed differently if wasnt meant to be the fighting game's poster boy, but hes the fighting game's poster boy. its the role he's designated to fill as the company mascot, and iunno if they would abandon that even for a reboot.

You like Smash, you like how the characters I portrayed. I don't. I think they're completely wrong. And the reality is that most of them are in fact portrayed differently than their home game appearances. You're free to like them but the fact remains they're literally not the same characters. Smash DK does not act the same as Tropical Freeze DK. Smash Mario does not act the same as Odyssey Mario. Sakurai does what he will with them regardless because he has his own vision to adhere to, and Nintendo and the fans can't say anything because of how successful Smash has been, but that doesn't mean Sakurai's portrayals aren't incorrect.
I have not once said I like how any of the characters are portrayed in Smash, that's an assumption you have made because I disagree with your notion that they are inaccurately portrayed. I said they're not wrong, and that there are a lot of ways to go about designing a fighter.
I can easily tell you I detest Palutena's design as a fighter and that I was disappointed with what Little Mac became. But I can understand the mindset behind why those characters are made the way they are, and how it works portraying them way they went about them too.
Even if they aren't updating literally every character between games, it's still the character even if they're a bit outdated.

And yes, I don't mind Smash adding as much content as possible NOW, because this game is insanely huge. They're not going to rework it two years after release, so yeah, keep adding more content to the game. Build up the crossover as much as they can. Because I can still enjoy playing this game, like so many other people, despite the many issues I personally have with it's gameplay.
But the NEXT game? That's when you can rebuild and redesign everything. Design Mario around Odyssey/Galaxy, design DK around the Returns games, design Bowser around his current non-feral personality, etc. Because nothing else they can do can top what they have now, that much is simply a fact.

But I don't care how much you detest the way some of the fighters act, the gameplay, the fighter interaction, any of that.
This game is literally the biggest piece of crossover in media that's been released for awhile, and no matter what the next game does to shake up the formula it's not going to match that. That's what makes Ultimate super special. Because it's the game that brought Dragon Quest vs Final Fantasy VII, Samus vs Simon, Ryu and Terry face to face again, Banjo & Kazooie back, etc.
I don't understand what is so wrong about wanting more of this now when it's all you're going to get for the time being.
 
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