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Mature Religious Discussion

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Crono

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My theory of the universe's birth:

Some form of matter which is incomprehensible slipped through holes in the quantum foam from another universe, creating a new parallel. This matter had been super-condensed in this universe which was much more massive than ours, so once this matter entered the new parallel, it immediately exploded extremely violently. I also believe dark matter is matter that continually slips through these holes in the quantum foam into our universe. But as more enters out universe, and equal amount of dark matter leaves. I'm certain most of you do not understand this multiverse thing. If you want an in-depth look, read Timeline by Michael Crichton (though a fictional novel, it gives real facts about quantum physics).
 

Crono

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Evolution cannot be viewed on a small scale. It must be looked at in a much larger scale (by this I mean evolution is not noticible over short periods of time). Now evolution is going on today in HUMANS. Over the past centuries, avergae height has increased a foot. Also, all the different races of people is evolution right there. If evolution is false, people would all be the same color. And why do we still have monkeys? You see, a million years ago, we had monkeys. Now, most monkeys were living comfortably in certain areas of the world, so there was no need to adapt to anything new. But one group of monkeys was having a hard time. After many generations, their genes adjusted to these changes (something called ADAPTATION) and they lived comfortably. Now as these primates continued to get smarter, they searched for new knowledge. See, knowledge brings a need to seek more knowledge, like when power hungry people always crave more power. So with this knowledge, brain mass increased and intelligence increased. Humans continue to get smarter generation after generation. Some of you look at evolution in a wrong way. You think that every animal of one species must evolve. This is simply not true. Animals of a species do not have connected genomes. They are separate. This is why we still have monkeys. Not all evolved into homo sapiens. This should not be hard to comprehend. If you still do not understand, I pity you.
 

Crono

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I want to see a living breathing homo erectus....hehe.... for proof about your evolution theory. <hr></blockquote>

Homo erectus is extinct.
You see, homo sapiens evolved from this species of primate. But not ALL homo erectus evolved. The ones that evolved became more like modern man and more capable of living in a dangerous world. the branch of homo erectus that did not evolved died out, not being able to meet the needs of their species. The group of homo erectus that evolved likely killed the homo erectus, as Cro-magnon man killed neanderthal man.
 

SnorSnor

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There is much proof, but you must understand that theists always ignore this and enter denail.<hr></blockquote>

I haven't heard of any proof. Show it to me so I can check it out.

Proof Bible stuff is false: Theory of Evolution, proof of age of earth being 4 billion years old or so, fact that most of the "miracles" in the bible can actually be done(more on this later)<hr></blockquote>

Even if evolution were true, this doesn't prove anything false except for creationism, which believes God created the universe in a literal 7 days.

Great Flood: There was a huge flood in the Jerusalem area around the time it is purported to have happened in the bible. My guess is people just made up the Noah story to explain why it happened, much as Romans used gods to explain why various things happened.<hr></blockquote>

But since this is only an assumption, it's better to say, "No, I don't believe it," or, "Yes, I believe it." Much better than saying, "They probably made it up."
But, lots of people keep saying it was a "local flood." If some would really read the story, it says that the water "covered all the high mountains under the heavens."

Uncorruptables: The alleged uncorruptable saints that have survived the centuries in perfect condition, in fact had been prepped so that they wouldnt rot. Their internal organs were removed and they were pumped of their blood, giving them the pale heavenly look.<hr></blockquote>

Who says saints don't corrupt? Our bodies are corruptable. The only One who didn't see corruption was Jesus. We will see corruption.

The bible is actually the best tool in disproving christianity.<hr></blockquote>

Is there anything in it that disproves Christianity?

Those prophecies never came true.<hr></blockquote>

You mean... you won't even believe secular information that was just presented to you? =/

You still haven't explained how carbon dating<hr></blockquote>

I've been learning a little more about C-14 and it does look some true to me right now. To disprove it, don't have the info now, sorry :( But I am trying to learn some more about it.

Evidence christianity was false has probably long been destroyed<hr></blockquote>

Is this fact or assumption? If it's fact, please show the proof, and some good proof too.
 

Crono

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(sorry to spam but i forgot to mention something)

Why did Cro magnon kill it's evolutionary predecessort, Neanderthal? You see, it is in Animalian nature to kill inferior beings.

Perhaps animals do this because they do not want to be surpassed. Perhaps the cro magnon feared the Neanderthal would increase in intelligence and strength and someday kill them. Kill or be killed-A philosophy that applies to every living thing.
 

Mmm Mmm Gopher

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Just taking a look at this forum really troubles me.

In this forum, there are two main sides: The theists and the athiests. There are also a few inbetweeners. Throughout the duration of this forum, both sides have been able to present substantial amounts of arguments that all sound pretty reasonable. Even so, everyone here, at least so far, is still sticking to their side.

So what is really troubling me is this: Why do you think i am going to h*** just because i am on the opposite side of the most difficult to debate topic out there? Forget all of the passages in the new testament. Do you really think its reasonable?
 

Crono

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Ok, someone mentioned Noah and the ark a little while ago. Here's my thoughts:
Now.. the flood. The flood could not have happened.
1. For all of that water to cover every part of the earth, we would need 10 times wthe water we have on Earth presently, and the amount of water on earth has been equal for 4 billion years.
2. Why didn't noah save the dinosaurs?
3. To get 2 of every animal in a few days is an impossible task. There are millions of species of animals, and they could not fit on a boat of the ark's given dimensions. And what about plants? Protists? Monerans? Fungi?
4. To restart the entire population from 2 animals and a few humans..... EVERY living thing would be so inbred that they wouldnt be able to stand up.

<hr></blockquote>

I actually posted this a few days ago in some fundy topic.

Now, let me ask this: If this all did happen, where'd the water go? DONT YOU DARE say it all evaporated! If it all evaporated, it would have rained again (something called the WATER CYCLE that you should have learned in 2nd grade). Water does not just disappear. So this flood was very likely a localized flood if it happened at all, but it was exaggerated extensively in the buybull to teach a moral, much like one of Aesop's.
 

Etched in a Box

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To follow up on that Crono:

You can't use the argument that it was God, and God can accomplish anything. Some of you have used (or at least tried to use) factual evidence yourself explaining why, oh say the moon, should be farther from the earth than it really is now. Use factual evidence now and explain where the water went.
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Let me clarify now, the majority of my facts come from <a href="http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com" target="_blank">www.clarifyingchristianity.com</a> . Originally posted by Crono:
I can't hold it in any longer. Acu, you idiot. Those prophecies never came true. <hr></blockquote> Really? If you're so smart, show me proof! Originally posted by androza:
Evidence christianity was false has probably long been destroyed <hr></blockquote> Where the did you get that? You're making an argument out of assumptions, androza. Try researching actual facts sometime and prove they're real.
Imagine that, the main book of the Hebrew religion doesnt change over 2000 years... strange how the bible hasnt either. Must be a religious book thing. <hr></blockquote> If it hasn't changed over 2000 years, it must be accurate.
So youre saying the christians were torn apart by dogs and lit up like torches? doesnt sound to different from the inquisition or the witch hunts... Who wouldve thought a peace loving religion like christianity would EVER do such a thing, of which nearly all failed. I believe in one of the crusades the invaders of Jerusalem(the christians) slaughtered every man woman and child in the city walls. The childrens crusade just resulted in a lot of new slaves in the east.
<hr></blockquote> OK, androza, I'd speak slowly and clearly for you but I can't really type like that, so just work with me here. A Catholic is a slightly modified version of a pure Christian (ie: Pentecostal, like myself). They focus more on Mary than they do on Jesus. The Roman Catholics were powerful, I don't doubt that. But they were a tyrannical people bent upon the destruction of Christianity, the truth. All the pure Christian people wanted the Roman Catholics outta there. It was the ROMANS who went about executing anyone with a differing religion. Androza, show me where you're getting these "facts" of yours. Now then, on to Gamer4Fire:
You still haven't explained how carbon dating, evolution and all the other things proving the bible wrong, are themselves wrong.
Please do so some time.
<hr></blockquote> I'll give you your evolution explanation. How did humans (and everything else) come into existence? The ONLY explanation you will find in PUBLIC school and university textbooks is the theory of evolution. Yet, no scientific, provable evidence supporting the theory of evolution has emerged since Charles Darwin popularized it in 1859. If there is no support for the theory of evolution, why is no alternative taught? I can only think of two reasons:
1) The Bible’s creation account is not “politically acceptable.”
2) The authors, book publishers, and school boards do not have all the facts (Coincidentially similar to androza's case).
I can not help the first condition. This part does contain the majority of necessary information needed for everyone
~THE CREATION ACCOUNT~
In The Beginning: The Bible is not a science book. But it IS scientifically accurate. There has never been any scientific evidence that contradicts this. Since we can prove the Bible is true, it makes sense to find out what the Bible tells us about how life was first created and how we got here. After all, if God is really God, He was there at the time and would know how to tell us what happened. The Bible’s account of the beginning of life in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 can be understood by anyone.

SPECIAL NOTE: GENESIS 1 and 2: The Bible often restates important points. As an example, the first four books in the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are all biographies of Jesus. Scholars have learned over time that these four “views” of Jesus give us a better understanding of Him than we would have had if only one account had been recorded. The same is true of the creation account in the first two chapters of Genesis. Genesis 1 describes all the physical events of creation. Genesis 2 looks back at the creation of humans more closely. Genesis 2 may appear to be a little different from Genesis 1, leading some people to believe there is a mistake in there somewhere. This is a problem caused by translation from the original Hebrew into English. Careful attention to the verb tenses in Hebrew and to the purpose of each chapter removes any apparent contradictions between the two. For example, Genesis chapter 2, verse 19 (Gen 2:19) uses the perfect tense, indicating finished actions regarding the creation of the animals. That is, the animals brought to Adam were created earlier, not created in Adam’s presence. Chapter 2 is a “look back” at the last half of chapter 1. It is interesting that the formation of the earth proposed by noted astronomer (astrophysicist) Hugh Ross has the exact same order as the creation account given in Genesis chapter 1. 1. Creation of the physical universe (space, time, matter, energy, galaxies, stars, planets, etc.)
2. Transformation of the earth’s atmosphere from opaque to translucent.
3. Formation of a stable water cycle.
4. Establishment of continent(s) and ocean(s).
5. Production of plants on the continent(s).
6. Transformation of the atmosphere from translucent to transparent (Sun, Moon, and stars become visible).
7. Production of small sea animals.
8. Creation of sea mammals.
9. Creation of birds.
10. Making of land mammals (wild mammals, mammals that can be domesticated, and rodents).
11. Creation of mankind.


Note: The preceding list assumes that the universe was the result of a “big bang” type event (an evolutionary cause). This is not in agreement with the Bible. For example, this list proposes that the appearance of light (item 2) and the appearance of the sun, moon, and stars (item 6) are results of the Earth’s atmospheric changes—not a result of the literal creation of the sun, moon, stars, or light. So, be aware that lists like the one above do not agree with the Bible’s stated cause for these events. Ionly include this list to illustrate that science agrees with the Bible’s order of creation events, OK? Good. Incidentally, this does not mean that we believe the Bible because we can find some scientific proposals that agree with it. It means that science continues to uphold knowledge recorded in the Bible over three thousand years ago. Another significant event occurs in Genesis chapters 6 through 8—what can be referred to as “The Flood”. To save themselves, Noah and his family built a covered boat called an “ark.” It was a large, boxy craft that resembled a covered barge. Notice in Genesis chapter 7, verses 11 and 12 that the rain is almost an afterthought. The first two sources of water for the flood mentioned were “the fountains of the great deep” and “the windows of heaven.” Science has discovered large underwater springs [2], so it is easy to imagine “fountains of the great deep” being opened by God, allowing the pressurized water to contribute to the flood. It has also been proposed that the Earth used to have much denser clouds than it has now. Such a “canopy” would create a greenhouse effect, making the climate of the entire world very temperate. Fossil finds indicate that not just the dinosaurs, but all animals, plants, and insects were much larger at one time—indicating a superior climate. At the time of the flood, it would have been easy for God to allow this canopy (or a large percentage of it) to fall as water. If almost everything fell at once, it would not have been like rain, it would have been like opening “the windows of heaven.” The crushing splash of water would have quickly drowned all people and animals that found themselves suddenly and unexpectedly immersed in water.

Although “off the subject,” this could explain the thousands of woolly mammoths that have been found perfectly preserved in polar areas—some with food still in their mouths. Once the protective canopy and its greenhouse effect was gone, the world would have turned cold on the poles, freezing the mammoths in the water that killed them.

Note: Genesis chapter 1, verse 7 states, “Thus God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.” Since the word firmament means an “expanse,” some people proposed that the firmament corresponds to Earth’s atmosphere, and use the verse to “prove” that a canopy of water existed above our atmosphere. However, we learn in Genesis chapter 1 verses 14-19 that the Sun and Moon are in the firmament. Therefore, the firmament corresponds to the Earth’s atmosphere and the heavens beyond. This does not mean the “canopy theory” is wrong, but that well-meaning people must not use the Bible to “prove” that it is true.

QUESTIONS SOMEONE ALWAYS ASKS ABOUT BIBLE'S CREATION ACCOUNT: Before we go on, Iwould like to answer some questions that always seem to come up. One involves how pairs of all the animals could have been collected by one family. Remember, if God is really God, he could have caused the flood, a supernatural event, to occur. Does it not also make sense that God could cause pairs of animals to migrate to the location of the ark? Notice the phrase in Genesis chapter 6, verse 20: "two of every kind will come to you." Also, Genesis chapter 7, verse 9 states the animals "went into the ark to Noah." The answer is simple, Noah did not go and get the animals, God did.
The next question is, how did all those animals fit on the ark? First, you should notice that different “kinds” of animals were brought onto the ark (Gen 6:20). Unlike the more recently introduced terms “genus,” “species,” and so forth [4], the Bible’s “kinds” can be thought of as what the “average person” would call an animal. For example, there may be many species of doves, but they are all still doves. Therefore, doves would be a “kind” of animal (bird, actually). Scientists have calculated the average size of the different kinds of animals (except for dinosaurs). It comes out to be about the size of a sheep. Based on this, we believe that all the “kinds” of animals would have taken up about one-third (1/3) of the room on the ark. That would leave plenty of room for Noah’s family and a year’s supply of food.

Now, what about dinosaurs, were they on the ark and could they fit? I believe dinosaurs were on the ark. The solution to getting the large ones on the ark is in using young dinosaurs. They take up less room, they eat less, and they have more of their reproductive life left for restarting the population.

What makes the flood important to our topic is all the evidence it left around. For one thing, pretty much everything that did not live in water would have been killed in a yearlong flood. This would have left an enormous layer of dead things that would later become coal and oil . . . and leave fossils. It is evident to everyone, as we view our dwindling energy resources, that a lot of material was left in the ground at one time. As this page develops, we will discuss why we believe these resources were left as the aftermath of a flood, rather than the result of accumulation of normal dying animals and plants over millions of years.

If you have flown on a plane, you probably noticed how different mountains look from the air than they do from the ground. They look more “wrinkled” than you would expect, and almost “artificial” in appearance. The canyons and rivers that flow out of them look different also—sort of like the seashore after the tide runs out and you see little “grooves” in the sand. This is especially noticeable if you are flying over a part of the world that does not have much vegetation to hide the shape of the land like Arizona, Nevada, and Utah in the United States. The next time you are in a plane and over such an area, look down and see if it makes sense that this appearance could have been caused about 4,000 years ago if everything had been covered with water for a year and then drained off in a short time. I do not claim this as proof, by the way—but this is one of many such observations that make one wonder.

THE EVIDENCE: As “evidence” to support their theory, most books on evolution include a reference list (bibliography) of other books and articles that also support the theory of evolution. We spent a great deal of time examining these sources and saw only a “circle of information,” with each document pointing to the next source as their “proof.” In college, we cynically called this procedure the “tower of babble.” (Yes, “babble” is the right word—this phrase is a pun.) To perform this procedure, the graduate student wrote their thesis based on the work and assumptions made by a previous graduate student. Of course that previous student did the same thing using the material of a still earlier student. By adding plenty of scientific terms and classifications, you not only sounded scholarly, but the thesis looked impressive to your family and friends!

The following is a shock: Unfortunately it was found that the writings on evolution are the same. Nobody could not locate any with testable, scientific, first generation evidence. The bulk of the material was based on the assumption that evolution is the only mechanism though which present day life arose. Ultimately, each document traced its beliefs back to Darwin’s theoretical writings. If you think we are exaggerating, examine the documentation yourself. By the way, the web contains many online versions of Darwin’s book. Why is this theoretical book so prominently available (and always recommended reading) if it is not the primary foundation of (and evidence for) the theory of evolution?

*GASP*...post again later...
 

Rune

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God.. hmmm, i do think the bibel is part real, but i don't beleve in god, not as a guy on a cloud at least..
I about the reallity in the bibel part, i tried to translate it all to god being an alien and Jesus the first alien/human hybrit created.. that acctually worked! Try it, its at least amusing :)
 

androza

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Snorsnor... ..nevermind. The Uncorruptables were specific saints mostly in italy that to this day have survived almost unblemished. Many people believed this was because of how pure they were, and how so many people prayed to them. But this was not so, it was embalming techniques of the middle ages. Thats why I made that point.

The Flood: Yes, there was an enormous flood in that entire region. Submerged almost completely. They have satellite images of it and all. Submerged mountains and all.

Early Evidence: Pretty much fact. How much of Rome exists today? Their architecture and some pots. Not to much else. And for the most part the Romans disregarded Christianity, and when they were feeling nasty fed em to the lions.
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Just so people know, I'm presenting ALL the facts to clarify the general point made at the end. THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION: (Basic point and known fact at end of post.)

HOW DID THE THEORY START?
Summarized briefly, Charles Darwin studied wildlife while on a voyage and he noticed the variation in the appearance of the individual animals. He guessed that this variation, given enough time, would allow these animals to change to the point that they looked different. This was not a surprising discovery, by the way. Anyone can examine different varieties of roses or cats to see this. This process of changing an organism’s appearance through a series of small changes is correctly called “microevolution”. After a series of microevolutionary changes, a frog may be larger or changed in color, but it is still a frog—not a fish or a lizard.

GETTING THE TERMS STRAIGHT:
First, 10 plus billion years of accidental, random atomic collisions resulted in the formation of some simple form of life. Scientists call this development of living organisms from nonliving matter “abiogenesis.” (receiving life from non-living matter) [Which is completely ridiculous].

Second, they use Darwin’s theory, stating that this simple life evolved over the next 3 plus billion years into the plants, animals, and humans we see today—using the long term effects of microevolutionary changes. Scientists call this process of developing new life forms “macroevolution”

Both of these processes put together are what the public at large and the scientific community think the “theory of evolution” is. Therefore, abiogenesis combined with macroevolution is what I am referring to when I write the “theory of evolution” here.

For example, if you observe a discussion between two people regarding whether the Bible’s creation account or the theory of evolution is correct, they will not be debating whether a species of clam can develop larger ridges in its shell! (A microevolution topic.) They will be discussing “where did life come from?” and “did we descend from apelike ancestors?” These are abiogenesis and macroevolution topics, respectively. There is no empirical (reproducible and testable) proof for abiogenesis or macroevolution. So, the person supporting evolution will typically turn the argument around to microevolution, where some evidence exists. Please be aware that if someone attempts to justify the theory of evolution by showing how microevolution works, they are changing the topic on you and not proving anything. (LOL...how often have I read that from some people here...!).

A NOTE ON Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA):
As a proof of macroevolution, many scientists turn to a lengthy, yet sophisticated discussion about changes in DNA from generation to generation. Be aware that this is still a jump in logic, since DNA changes are a microevolution topic—not scientific proof of abiogenesis, macroevolution, or the theory of evolution.

WHO CURRENTLY DEVELOPS AND PROMOTES THESE THEORIES?
Scientists and professors who promote evolutionary thought usually come from one of three scientific fields. The first field is called paleontology. A paleontologist is a scientist who (1) examines fossils, (2) proposes the “family tree of life” they come from, (3) estimates the time frame in which they lived (based on the geologic rock layers they were found in), and (4) speculates on their evolutionary paths. The other two fields in this area are geology (the study of “rocks&#8221 ;) and biology (the study animals and plants). The scientists in these areas are closely related and often work together.

The work that involves studying the evolutionary development of groups of organisms (plants and animals) is called phylogeny and can be done by any of these people. There are other related fields such as anthropology and even astronomy that provide information relevant to our discussion of creation and evolution, but we will not list them all. Note—not all of these scientists believe in the theory of evolution. These are simply the scientific fields that supply most of the facts related to this topic. Many of them, especially scientists in the related fields of astronomy and astrophysics, are realizing that the Bible’s creation account is a good explanation of “how we got here.” Still, although many astronomers accept a “Creator,” many still interpret the Bible so loosely that they believe that the universe (and the earth) is billions of years old. The link below explains using simple terms their measurement methods and shows why the earth could be “young” (less than 10,000 years old).

Here's the point: Since Darwin’s time, the theory of evolution developed through people writing books. NOTHING RECORDED dug up out of the ground (or discovered anywhere else) has ever directly supported the theory of evolution. It's a fact, look into the site yourself.
 

Mmm Mmm Gopher

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Originally posted by AculemNaeomeus:

Now, what about dinosaurs, were they on the ark and could they fit? I believe dinosaurs were on the ark. The solution to getting the large ones on the ark is in using young dinosaurs. They take up less room, they eat less, and they have more of their reproductive life left for restarting the population.

<hr></blockquote>

Hey, man. Last time I checked my scientific timelines, the dinos were gone by the time man came around.

Another question: Two of each kind of animal? You already addressed the space issue, by saying that "kind" doesnt necessarily mean species, but with only one other animal for each animal to mate with would mean some serious inbreeding in the next generation. Even if that generation did fine, every generation of animal would be closely related, and mutation and deformaties would be popping up like acne on a teenager. Even if all the animals, or at least some of them, did survive this, how come this issue wasnt mentioned in the Bible?
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Obviously Gopher, you didn't read both of my entire posts. Which I can't blame you for because unless you're serious about this debate and want questions answered, they're really long! I'm pretty sure I posted about that, check again.
 

Kokichi

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Religion is an excuse for thinking. We have evidence pouring out of our ears about evolution and the big bang. I have watched numerous shows on Discovery about evolution and about black holes. It is all very cool. I hope some of you got to watch "Walking with prehistoric beasts" on Discovery. It is all animatronic and CGI graphix, and it talks all about the cool animals that were after dinosaurs and before us. It has these cool birds that look like ostriges excapet they are 7 feet tall, and it also talks about the wooly mammoth and wooly rhino and sabertooth cat (THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SABERTOOTH TIGER, ITS SABERTOOTH CAT!!!). All very cool, and it also disproves that very humerous thought of 6 days making the world. And for those christians, it even talks about the proof, so THERE! Tell me, how many of you have seen god? How many of you can see evolution?
 

Mmm Mmm Gopher

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No i read them entirely. I guess I forgot your dinosaur point. Was that the one where you said theres evidence that humans lived during the era of the dinosaurs, cuz I read something like that somewhere in this forum...i think...

Thats not really what i care about though. I wanna focus more on the inbreeding isssue...but im goin to bed. Ill prolly be back 2morrow though.
 

Akira

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According to all the Christian people, I must be f
I've read most of your posts Aculem, I'd advise anyone else to save themselves some time and skip or just skim them. They are based on assumptions and mis-information (most of which is taken from a biased christian site).

Remember, just because it's long dosen't make it accurate ;)
 

Mmm Mmm Gopher

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Originally posted by Nosirrah:
I've read most of your posts Aculem, I'd advise anyone else to save themselves some time and skip or just skim them. They are based on assumptions and mis-information (most of which is taken from a biased christian site).
<hr></blockquote>

I agree with you some there. A lot of what Aculem says include a lot of "well there is some evidence that..." stuff that goes against a lot of widely accepted scientific theories that people rarely dare to challenge.

Ok this time im serious: I AM going to bed now.
 

Etched in a Box

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Yes, and the only reason they call them theories and not laws is because there is a .01% chance that they are wrong. Hey if the theory of evolution is wrong, why not just toss out the theory of relativity?
 

SnorSnor

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No, Koki, I don't really watch the Disc. Channel. Not because of the evolution stuff, but just because I don't feel like it.

Tell me, how many of you have seen god? How many of you can see evolution?<hr></blockquote>

Do I see God? No. Do I see evolution? No. Do I see God working around in my life and in other's lives? Yes. Do I see evolution working around in people's lives? No. Infact, the chances of seeing macroevolution are impossible, since macroevolution takes millions of years. But microevolution doesn't count, since all that is, is adaptation :)

Cya :)
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Originally posted by Nosehirraiahhodee - how do you spell that?:
I've read most of your posts Aculem, I'd advise anyone else to save themselves some time and skip or just skim them. They are based on assumptions and mis-information (most of which is taken from a biased christian site).
Remember, just because it's long dosen't make it accurate
<hr></blockquote> How many times have I said that my information was supported by real facts on a real site? Nosihirrakdhdaidfah, for the last bloody time, GO TO THE SITE. I'm sorry, but as said a million times by everyone on both sides, you can't say stuff unless you provide proof. So unless you have it, shaddap.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: AculemNaeomeus ]</p>
 

Mmm Mmm Gopher

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Hey Nosirrah, could you be more specific about what things Aculem has posted that you find to be based on mis-information and assumptions?
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Please do. Anybody who bothers to visit <a href="http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com" target="_blank">www.clarifyingchristianity.com</a> can realize that what I have written is fact, based upon research from the site writer's research. The writer is a professional and accomplished historian, Bible scholar and eschatologist.
 

Liquid Entropy

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Between you and me there's only us.
Hedonists do it better.

Lemme tell you something Christians, you crazy
christians.

Do what you want. Believe in god as a train,
plane, or taxi cab, I'll still use the taxi to
get downtown.

Me, I don't care. Your religion, its got nothing
for me. If it does, you have go to be the worst
party to explain, it because your totally
ineffective.

I don't see the point of you guys making any
kind of arguement, of advertising, of any of
that because apparently I won't realize god till
god chooses me.

I can't tell you how awesome it is to have people
being like "man, I sure so love my god, salt of
the earth, that god o' mine"
then I'm all like "what you talking about"

you get all silent and your like:
"oh...he's not in the club"
"sorry, apply for membership next life"

So anyway, I don't need to give a d@mn about
anything outside my own little sphere.

I care about my friends, my girlfriend, and
life's basic reactions to me. I work to get into
college cause it seems beneficial, though i do
not know that.
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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......................how touching. If you don't have anything relevant to say, why don't you just crawl back into your little "sphere" and stay there? For like, a long time. Please?
 

Garregus

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"Religion is an excuse for thinking." I gotta say I laughed out loud at that. Religion is a crutch the human mind creates for itself because it doesnt know of anywhere else to go. Most kids are raised having religion forced on them, simply because their parents have already been indoctrinated. Let me ask all Christians this: if you had been raised as a hindu, would you be praying to Brhama now? And would that make the christians wrong? Relgion on the whole is entirely too subjective to actually hold up. People simply can't figure out where else to put their "faith", and religion is so self-deprecating as to tell them to put it not in themselves. religion is detrimental in this sense to everyone, it removes our confidence in any abilities we may have and places them in something we can never seee or find or in any way quantify, which is psychologically useless, faith issues aside.

As a side not, i think my church has a total membership of over 1700, and the average weekly attendance is around 650 or so. Yep.

Free will. well, ladies, aint that a doozie. You see, you accept that all the bad **** that happens to you is our own fault, which it is, but then you call anything good a "miracle" or an "act of god". How can you not see the flaw in that? there is no daichotomy of causality here. Humans are responsible for themselves, come good and bad. To be totally honest, i totaled my car last week. It was my fault. and im basically screwed for a long time because of it. but im not going to sit back on my *** and pray to make things better. Im gonna work to get what i need back. I dont need God or gods to do so. Nor do i need a thousand year old scroll to dictate my morals to me. I know whats right and wrong, and unless youhave some pretty sever physchological conditions, you do too.

Oh, and gay bashing. You hypocrits. "I'm a christian, i think gays are terrible and should go to **** ." Hmm yep that's totally christian, i swear.

Prosthelyzation. People have a right to choose. Sending people door to door or just conversationally attempting to convert people to your religion almost forcibly is absurd. It's one of the things that makes me mad about christians, they have a constant need to justify their existence to everyone they see. and in justifying their existence, they usually expose what hypocrits they are. people who call themselves good christians go out and screw everyone they can find. Now, i have no problem with that, but i dont call myself a religious person either.

In short, religion is something someone decided should happen simply because they had nothing better to do with their free time/energy. It has redeeming quialities, cant be justified, and makes for a lot of ******** people who can't think of anything better to say than "God did it."
 

SnorSnor

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Oh, and gay bashing. You hypocrits. "I'm a christian, i think gays are terrible and should go to **** ." Hmm yep that's totally christian, i swear.<hr></blockquote>

Who said this? Christ says to love you neighbors and enemies. That means everyone. But, Christians aren't supposed to "bash" gay people. Christians just disagree with their lifestyle. Yes, people who do bash them are hypocritical Christians who need to change.
But not only gays deserve to go to **** , I do too.

I know Christians parade around and say "God hates ****," but this simple isn't true... what they say anyway. Yes, they are acting like hypocrites, because this isn't what Jesus said to do.

But anyone who calls themself a "good" Christian, yet hates someone, then they're not a good Christian, because they're disobeying an important thing to follow. If they don't repent of what they're doing when they already know what they're doing is wrong, they could be in for quite a surprise.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>
 

Garregus

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Messages
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Yeah, i was reading AculemNaeomeus's posts. Now I dont like to get into name calling, etc...but i thought it worthy to mention this:


"I'm sorry, but as said a million times by everyone on both sides, you can't say stuff unless you provide proof. So unless you have it, shaddap."

Now i could be wrong, but christianity is founded on faith, and not having any proof whatsoever. Not sure how that's not directly contradictory, but if youd like to explain, feel free.

I went to your site. I gotta say, i could make <a href="http://www.howtoworshipsatan.com" target="_blank">www.howtoworshipsatan.com</a> , and i dont think i could do a better job of being biased than that site right there, or more useless.
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Garregus? Shutup. Reasons?
1) You haven't presented any evidence supporting your opinion.
2) Did you notice the title? It says MATURE. Please and thank you.
3) You're wrong. You're judging all Christians the way you assume we are.
4) You are a 100% NEWBIE and therefore your stupid posts are completely void of -any- authority whatsoever.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: AculemNaeomeus ]</p>
 

Garregus

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Look, I am a newbie on this board perhaps, but certainly not at anything that goes on. Either way, i did give clear evidence and logical reasons as to why i had that opinion, simply dismissing them because you dont like them is asinine. I went to your site, i told you why you were wrong in spite of/because of it, and i have yet to see any good reasons to think otherwise. Especially from you. at least snor-snor presented a decent argument, which i thought made a good point.

Oh another point id like to make.. I can't remember at the moment who said it, but someone made a comment about how we deserved the attacks on september 11th because we sinned. Well, thats cool, why don't we flood the earth while we're at it. you cannot possibly tell me that any benevolent god would recklessly allow/cause the slaughter of over 5500 people. Cause thats what it was. Not an act of god, the fault of men who use religion as an excuse to kill men, women, and children without so much as blinking.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Garregus ]</p>
 

Liquid Entropy

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Between you and me there's only us.
Let me say this.
I see you AculemNaeomeus.

You are nothing.
You have nothing.
You are going nowhere.

You live in an empty shell, dedicated to a
paper mache figure.

There is no god who loves you, as there is no
person who loves you.

Your words, like you, are without soul, heart,
or content.

I know who I am.
I know where I am going.

I do not need your masks, your faces to pray to.

I do not need to project what I pretend upon
others, for I know what is.

If you wish to saturate me with your inferiority,
I will lash out at you.

You disgust me.

You have proven your worth to me, and you
have been measured as wanting.
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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*Sigh*...such is the idiocy and ignorance of newbies. Garregus, you obviously haven't read anything because there are some people here who have been able to come up with proof of some kind. If you started promoting Satanism, you would get flamed worse than any Christian here ever was. Just a pointer.
 

Mmm Mmm Gopher

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Hey aculem, I checked out your site too. I really thought that what you were saying had a lot of merit until i checked that place out. I mean no offense to you, but that site challenges all forms of scientific dating, which is ridiculous really. It even says that scientists biased the results based on what they wanted. You ask for proof? Wheres the proof in that? Oh yeah, also, your site attacks fossilization.

It says:
"Would they stay put and untouched on the ground long enough to be covered by dirt eventually and become fossilized? No. They would be eaten by other animals and blown around by the winds and rains until a complete skeleton was no longer available. The reality is that there is no evidence that fossils were formed continually (or are being formed continually) as the theory of evolution predicts."

Last time i checked, there were things like mudslides, tar pits, and special circumstances like being trapped in amber that cause fossilization. These things dont happen all that often, but hey, the world is billions of years old. There was plenty of time for that to happen.

Theres plenty more in your site that i totally disagree with, but im tired, and dont feel like posting any more. All I have to say is that it seems pretty out there to me.
 

Crono

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True dat, Acul. Your site is totally biased. My feces tell a more truthful story than that crppy site.

And to SNorSnor: You say hate is wrong. Now, when people surpress feelings, that doesn't mean these feelings are lost. It's next to impossible to go through life and never hate anyone else.
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Liquid, you are wrong. There is some seriousness to this issue, but I'm going to have fun first.
Let me say this. <hr></blockquote> Why should I?
I see you AculemNaeomeus. <hr></blockquote> ...no, you don't.
You are nothing.
<hr></blockquote> I am a son of God living a temporary life in flesh.
You have nothing. <hr></blockquote> I have the blood of Christ, shed upon my heart to forgive my sins. (This is a metaphor used in the Bible for when Jesus was on the cross).
You are going nowhere. <hr></blockquote> I'm going to Heaven.
You live in an empty shell, dedicated to a
paper mache figure. <hr></blockquote> I live in physical flesh, awaiting the day I die and am saved by the grace of my Lord.
There is no god who loves you, as there is no
person who loves you. <hr></blockquote> Jesus Christ, one God who loves all people of all races and languages and gave his life for us. Yes, you. Denial gets you nowhere. My family loves me, and I will meet them in paradise.
Your words, like you, are without soul, heart,
or content. <hr></blockquote> My words are those of a sinners, no more, no less. Every person on earth is a sinner. Everyone. I, among all Christians, am different. I have been saved.
I know who I am. <hr></blockquote> I don't doubt that.
I know where I am going. <hr></blockquote> That, I doubt. Tell me, why don't you?
I do not need your masks, your faces to pray to. <hr></blockquote> Masks? Faces? This "face" you refuse to acknowledge will one day prove to be more important than you ever imagined. He's gonna judge you...just like everyone else.
I do not need to project what I pretend upon
others, for I know what is. <hr></blockquote> Because you have nothing to "project". Religion is not "pretend". You will regret those words.
If you wish to saturate me with your inferiority,
I will lash out at you. <hr></blockquote> You are no more than me. I am no more than you. Lash out...haven't you already? You can do nothing to me, or any Christian. You can torture us, kidnap us, kill us. We die with smiles on our faces and joy in our eyes, for we know the Truth. (No, we're not al Quaeda's suicide bombers)
You disgust me. <hr></blockquote> You sadden me.
You have proven your worth to me, and you
have been measured as wanting. <hr></blockquote> Oh my word. Take a look at this, everybody! Oh, LE...you just think you're God, don't you? You're in for a big disappointment.
 

MasterOfTheSwords

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Gopher, can you give me a more accurate source of information regarding Christianity and the Bible? Because the problem is, you have no evidence that it's wrong. :rolleyes: You've just read it and said it's stupid. Just like everything else I've posted, nobody has produced quality evidence that another form of creation exists, just dissing divine Creation and making up stuff.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: AculemNaeomeus ]</p>
 

Crono

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Ok, you want evolution in today's society? Here.

Why do you think we have races? Blacks, caucasians, asians, native americans... they are all results of evolutionary processes due to adaptation in their "home turfs". If evolution is false, then everyone would be black. But are we? No.

Also... want evolution? Take off your sock. Look at the little piggy that goes wee wee wee all the way home. Your pinky toe is disappearing. Within the next few dozen generations, that toe will be gone. I can't really prove that, but it is logical and widely accepted theory. It's like whales. When their ancestors first started going into the water, they had back feet. Now... they have disappeared entirely because now that they had become totally marine, the use for those hind legs had disappeared. Our pinky serves no purpose. People who have lost it walk and run just as readily as people with all 5 toes. Also, the average height for an adult male has increased a foot over the past 200 years. You cannot argue that.
 

Crono

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Hey Acu, according to SnorSnor, you don't deserve to get to your heaven. And can you really say you are going to heaven? No, you cannot.
 

SnorSnor

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And to SNorSnor: You say hate is wrong. Now, when people surpress feelings, that doesn't mean these feelings are lost. It's next to impossible to go through life and never hate anyone else.<hr></blockquote>

I agree, everyone hates someone in some point in their life. The thing is, What are they going to do about it? Will they ask for forgiveness and do better, or continue to hate without repentance? I've been angry at people when I know I shouldn't have, so I asked God to forgive me and help me do better.
 
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