Mature Religious Discussion

[Crono]

Ok. Let's not get immature and profane in here. Let's be civilized about this. I'll start:

God, and all gods, are myths.

What makes the judeo-christian god any different than the Greek/Roman gods?

 

[E-Oreo]

Didn't they just close a topic like this?

 

[Crono]

Yes, that's why I made a new one

 

[Crono]

C'mon now people, don't be shy to express yourselves.

 

[E-Oreo]

I hope this ones better than the last one. I don't think i'll join in but i'll watch. How do you plan on keeping this one sain?

 

[Crono]

I'm not sure, E.

 

[Crono]

To the theists: Why did your god allow the terrorist attacks of sept. 11?

 

[Crono]

Correct answer: He didn't because a nonexistent thing cannot have any effect on what happens in the space-time continuum (the universe).

 

[Crono]

C'mon, I don't want to talk to myself all night.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

You're spamming your own topic. You have any idea how pathetic that is?

 

[E-Oreo]

I will help you if I can. I'm cristian and I believe in 1 god.

 

[Crono]

Religious zealotry over the centuries has been directly responsible for countless deaths, imprisonments, needless suffering, torturings, and the oppression of people on grounds of sex, race, colour, sexuality or belief.

A few obvious examples :

The Crusades.
The Inquisition.
Witch trials in Europe and America.
The Divine right of Kings (valid until killed by another Divinely-appointed King).
Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, "heathen" religions and cultures.
Missionaries such as Mother Teresa.
The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans ("They're devil-worshippers!"), the Romans demonizing Christians ("They're atheists and cannibals!").
Persecution of Heretics - e.g. Galileo for daring to suggest that the Earth orbits the Sun.
Children dying because their parents refused them medical treatment on religious grounds; relying instead on faith-healers and prayer.
Slavery, supposedly supported by scripture ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, just as you would obey Christ.", St.Paul, Ephesians 6:5)
Holy wars - followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
Persecution/punishment of blasphemers (Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence on him), and blasphemy laws in general.
The requirement of theism in order to stand for public office or to testify in court.
Serial killers believing they are doing the work of Satan (or sometimes Jesus).
Often-fatal exorcisms by priests believing they are destroying the work of Satan.
People suffering dreadful injury or death in the belief that their faith has made them invulnerable (e.g. people climbing into lion enclosures at zoos, with a Bible as protection).
Whole societies divided by minor differences in belief or doctrine, often resulting in violence.
Mass suicides of cult-members following a charismatic leader who believes the world is about to End (most recently, the Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple cults - there will be more as we approach the year 2000).
The attempted genocide of followers of a particular faith (e.g. the Jewish Holocaust, "ethnic cleansing" in former Yugoslavia).
Blood sacrifices to appease the Gods, or to ensure a good harvest. (The Aztecs made daily human sacrifices to ensure that the Sun would rise. Or did they? )
The practice of "female circumcision" (more accurately termed genital mutilation).
The discouragement of rational, critical thought (resulting in young-earth creationists, for example).
Uncontrolled population growth caused (or at least helped) by churches prohibiting birth-control and abortion. (You can also add : unwanted pregnancies, ill-fated forced marriages, and pregnant teenagers condemned to a life in mental institutions to avoid embarrassing their families.)
The spread of sexually transmitted diseases (e.g. AIDS) due to churches prohibiting the use of condoms.
Believers whipping, impaling, poisoning or crucifying themselves during religious festivals as a demonstration of their faith and piety.
Suicide bombers taught to believe that martyrs go straight to Paradise.
The indoctrination of children into the religion of their parents, giving them an arbitrary, life-long belief that is almost entirely dependent on their place of birth.
Women treated as second-class citizens or even slaves (article : Islam's Shame).
Pentecostal snake-handlers (Augusta Chronicle news article)
Persecution of homosexuals (Genocide of gay and lesbian youth)
Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
Minor religions ("cults") stockpiling weapons to defend themselves from the Armies Of Satan (i.e. the police and the government

 

[E-Oreo]

I don't doubt it.

 

[O'dul]

God, and all gods, are myths.

you did say that... so thats y no is here cuz if they are here what they would say would be nothing short of flaming...

 

[E-Oreo]

Either no likes this topic, everyone is somewhere else or there all sleeping.

 

[Crono]

Man.. If BenHoldsFive were here, I'd have a lot to debate against.

 

[E-Oreo]

How can you have a debate with 5 people who don't feel like having a debate?

 

[O'dul]

well y dont you debate with what the guys over me... he di say some big stuff...

 

[Akira]

Eh, it's a noble fight but no one seems to be in the mood anymore...

 

[Crono]

Bah.

 

[E-Oreo]

I'm outa here,

see ya

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

Here's my opinion

Man has always quested for knowledge in his days of existance. As soon as man became intelligent enough to wonder about the nature of reality, the very nature of "being" itself, he was bombarded by question after question, each of which, much to his dismay, he was at loss to answer. Where did the earth come from? WHY am I here? Being the most innovative and inventive creature on the planet, man invented one of the most ingenious ideas of all: Religion.

With religion it all made sense. An all-powerful being that we cannot see or smell or touch has created the earth and the heavens. His presence is still around today, though he is not a material object. What a brilliant concept it was. You couldn't prove it...but most importantly, you couldnt disprove it.

Religion was invented to answer a question that we did not have enough information to answer at the time. In addition to explaining reality, it also gave a reason for kindness, generosity, honesty, and such things. It all seemed to make sense.

But now, we are beginning to learn more and more about the true origin of ourselves and the universe. Religion is getting harder and harder to explain as we learn what we were at loss of knowing before. Religious Scholars hurry to try and answer the question of evolution and theories like the big bang theory without contradicting the holy scriptures and writings to which everyone had once so desperately clang to.

I myself, do not believe in a higher power. I hate to call myself an atheist because of the negative connotation, but that is what i truly am. I believe in fact and reason over speculation. What solid proof is there that there is a God? Some may say that just because he cannot be proved doesnt mean he is not there. If I told someone that there are invisible gremlins who see and hear all, and punish or award people in the afterlife, it could neither be proved nor disproved. I am not saying that because God cannot be proven means that he does not exist, but i'm saying that there is no solid proof. Without solid proof, one can only speculate. My speculation is that there is no higher power.

I have a bunch more to say, but before i do, i want to stress that I am not trying to force my thoughts upon you. I do not belive there is an afterlife and therefore i dont think it really matters what you do and do not believe in.

Also, I'm really dont wanna have to repeat this, but I'm not here to play mind games with you or confuse you with the "teaching of satan", as many ppl have told me i do. I simply want to state my opinion, discuss, and expand upon a topic thats been widely debated for centuries.

 

[Mad Mario]

Wow, quad post!

To the theists: Why did your god allow the terrorist attacks of sept. 11? <hr></blockquote>

I think I can answer that one. I'm a Christian too, now ya' know.
First of all, God gave man free will. If we had no free will, we would all be like drones or robots, no personality. Anyway, this free will also gave us the option to sin, which God cannot stand since he is Holy. To the explaining of the attack: if he suddenly stopped all the terrorists from crashing the plane and had them kill themselves that would be against thier free will and God would not want to go against what he gave us. The only way God can change a person or have themselves be guided by him is if they let him. I really doubt those evil men would've let God lead them.

If there were never any bad things that happened, people would get to relaxed, too self-confident, and would think "Why do I need to rely on God to be secure and happy?" Then people would turn away from God.

The attack also let to much preaching and witnessing which was a good thing in the midst of that badness because many people were saved and led to Jesus during that time of terror. Bush even had a National day of Prayer and Remembrance.

P.S. Funny name and sig MMM MMM GOPHER! :D :D

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Mad Mario ]</p>

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

At first I was going to make the argument that the world would be a much better place if it werent for religion, but then I realized that without religion, the world would be even worse. There would be no reason not to do evil, not to murder, not to steal, ect. ect.

What pains me is that religion is both keeping the world together and tearing it apart. Some religions strengthen common values and comdemn evil, while others preach war against non-believers and people with differences in opinion and customs. Without religion the bombings of sept 11 probably would have never happened, but the human race probably wouldnt have survived to that day anyway.

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

haha thanx mad mario. Took me a while to come up with :D

 

[Mario27]

Originally posted by Crono:
<strong>To the theists: Why did your god allow the terrorist attacks of sept. 11?</strong><hr></blockquote>

i am a christian. my god allowed this because we have sinned and have deserved it.

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Mario27 ]</p>

 

[Mad Mario]

I like your sig too Mario 27! My sig is dumb, I think I'll change it....

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

I'd like to throw out a question to Christianity, and the other religions where being a non-beliver condemns you to h***.

As I had stated before, I say that invisible gremlins are watching over you and will send your spirit to a firey place when you die if you ever say the word "napkin" more than twice in a sentence. You couldn't prove me wrong or right.

Christianity states that those who "do not accept the teachings of christ" will go to h***. This inspired missionaries to go out converting peoples who were never exposed to christianity in order to save their souls. Some converted, while others retained their faith, not convinced by the missionaries at all.

Would those who did not believe the missionaries go to h***? The topic of religion is so difficult to debate because of its nature. It is also difficult to convince someone that the way they believe is wrong, as you can plainly see by reading some of these posts.

Would a loving God send people to h*** simply because their belief system is slightly off?

And then what about the ppl who the missionaries never even talked to? Would they go to h*** because they dont believe in Christ, yet never were exposed to Christianity in the first place? I was told that God would decide in that case where those people would go based on whether they were good people or not. I think that makes a lot more sense.

Now, I ask, why wouldnt God do the same for people who werent convinced: people who were told about Christianity but didnt buy it.

Wouldn't a loving god decide whether one goes to heaven or h*** based on their character, or based on how they believe the world was created?

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

woops i didnt proofread. lemme restate my last sentence:

Wouldn't a loving god decide whether one goes to heaven or h*** based on their character, and not based on how they believe the world was created?

 

[Mad Mario]

Nope. When people started sinning, God hated it. God cannot stand sin since he is holy. (Notice: God does not hate us, but he hates sin, and when we sin, it is like the sin is splattered all over us.)The only way for us to be able to be with God is to get rid of our sin. The only way to get rid of it is to get punished, and that is death. The thing is, God loves us so much that instead of letting us die he took the punishment himself by sending Jesus, who is God in human form. Jesus never sinned, so he could take on all the sin himself and suffer a painful death, instead of having us do it. Jesus, who was not overtaken by death, came to life in 3 days and then went back up to heaven to God.
The only way you can go to heaven is to be free of your sin so you can go in front of God. And the only way to rid your sin is to awknowledge that you sinned and that Jesus died for you. So no matter how good your character is, or your personality, you have to at least sinned once, and once in enough to earn you death. That is why we say that not believing that Jesus has saved you from death will have you die and go to **** .

P.S. I changed my sig! Not much more exciting but oh well, it's something new and refreshing to look at.

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Mad Mario ]</p>

 

[SnorSnor]

Hello, Mmmm Mmmm Gopher :D You pose some nice question, and I'll try to answer them for you.

Would those who did not believe the missionaries go to h***?<hr></blockquote>

Yes. See, when you hear about Christ, you have to choices. You accept it or not. To those who accept it, then they'll be saved. If not, then they aren't saved. I wish all could go to heaven, but I know it won't happen If you really think about it, it's not God's fault on who goes to hel1, especially for the people who heard about Jesus. It isn't His fault... because He didn't make the choice for you. The human makes his own choice.

Would a loving God send people to h*** simply because their belief system is slightly off?<hr></blockquote>

Depends. What belief is slightly off? And, if Christianity, in what was is it slightly off?

Would they go to h*** because they dont believe in Christ, yet never were exposed to Christianity in the first place? I was told that God would decide in that case where those people would go based on whether they were good people or not. I think that makes a lot more sense.<hr></blockquote>

I haven't really looked into this topic that much, so I don't really know how to answer it for you. It could be by works, because God says He'll "write the law on their hearts" so we know what's between right and wrong.

people who were told about Christianity but didnt buy it.<hr></blockquote>

Sadly, they won't be saved. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I do believe that's pretty straight-forward.

Wouldn't a loving god decide whether one goes to heaven or h*** based on their character, or based on how they believe the world was created?<hr></blockquote>

If it were based on our character, we'de all go to **** . We're not good enough for God to enter His presence. Our own righteous works are as "dirty rags." If we do one sin, we die... spiritually, that is. If going to heaven or not were based on out character, there would be no way to get to heaven. That's why God had the plan of sending His Son to die for us, and to wash us clean in His blood that was shed for us on that cross He was nailed onto. This way, we'de be pure and innocent and justified in the sight of God when Jesus comes to judge us all. If He found one sin on us, we'de be declared guilty, but because His blood covers all sin, then we'de be declared innocent if we accept Him.

Also, to believe God is there is not enough. It's said in James 2:19, that even the demons believe that, and tremble. Even the devil believes Jesus died and rose again. But one thing he can't and won't do, is to accept Christ as Lord. Belief and accepting... two very different things.

Hopethat helped you some

P.S. Nice post Mario :D

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

I appreciate the feedback mad mar, and u 2 snor snor. I myself was brought up thru Jewish religious school, and was only given a rudementary understanding about Christian views on the afterlife.

Still...I gotta say yikes, man. I honestly dont believe that Jesus is God's son and all of that jazz. Even if i did believe in god, i'd be jewish so i'd be screwed anyway. If Christianity is correct, my opinion has screwed me over.

I'm still not convinced, and I could lie and say I am, but that would be a lie, and God, if he did exist, would know that. Oh well, I guess I'll find out when I die.

 

[SnorSnor]

Originally posted by Mmm Mmm Gopher:
<strong>Oh well, I guess I'll find out when I die.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That, and you also have another choice while in this life. Ask God to help you find Him. If you mean it, and are willing to let Him lead you wherever, then you will find Him. That's why He said "Seek me with all your heart, and you will find me." That's quite a promise.

You don't have to, if you don't want to... but I think it's better than literally dying to find out.

But one thing is, is that I can't convince you of anything. I believe God does the convincing.

Cya

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[Mario27]

thats okay that you are jewish. oh yeah i just remembered that hanukah starts tomorrow. anyway, the thing that i'm worried about is with all these gods, which one is the true one? i'm not saying at all that i don't believe in my god because i do. its just that religion is a confusing subject.

 

[SnorSnor]

Originally posted by Mario27:
<strong>thats okay that you are jewish. oh yeah i just remembered that hanukah starts tomorrow.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow, that's right. I forgot all about it. Heh, that Hanukah story is pretty neat

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

Yup. Actually hannukah started this sundown. I think its b/c in the torah, er old testament if you will, it said there was night and then there was day, or something like that. Judaism took that quite literally and thus concluded that every day begins at sundown. Same thing with the sabbath: we have services friday nights even though the sabbath is on saturday for that reason.

In response to your concerns, mario27, those are mine too. With all the religions, all of which profess they are correct one, its a needle in a haystack chance whether you'll make it into heaven or not. Of course, some religions dont even believe in afterlife, and many believe in reincarnation.

 

[Etched in a Box]

SnorSnor, I respect you more than any other forum member, because you are always so helpful. But when it comes to religion, I say that there is room for question. Religion is biased, that cannot be argued. People grow in an area and are given beliefs to live by since they are just babies, how can they think in any other way? They must become perceptive. Also, when reading the Bible I see some contradictory points. As I have always heard, God is loving and forgiving. But in the Bible it tells of God punishing people for doing things that aren't even half as bad as people do nowadays. Don't get me wrong I think religion is a great thing, it teaches morals that the whole world should go by. However, it upsets me whenever I read about religion getting in the way of the progress of man, and Galileo being kept away from his studies just because a non-geocentric universe can't be possible.

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Etched in a Box ]</p>

 

[Mmm Mmm Gopher]

I agree, Box. Religion does often get in the way of man's progress. During the Middle Ages, when nearly every aspect of the lives of people in western europe was controlled by the church, few advances in science and technology occurred.

However, during the Enlightenment, secular thinking led to revalation after revalation, and idea after idea. People began to develop theories about the universe that no one had ever even dared to think about during the middle ages.

I have so much more to say, but I'm really tired, and Ive got school tomorrow. Cya later.

 

[ChronoElemental]

Originally posted by Crono:
<strong>Correct answer: He didn't because a nonexistent thing cannot have any effect on what happens in the space-time continuum (the universe).</strong><hr></blockquote>

You don't have to be able to control everything when you're a god.Gods can be weak,like Jesus was and maybe there is no god America has to believe except Jesus.Oh,one last thing...I advise you to listen to Track #17 on Puff Daddy's Forever or at least read the lyrics...you may even change your mind...

 

[Gamer4Fire]

A small question. Your Jesus comes again, and I decide to grab my 50. and blow his head off his shoulders. Will it kill him? Will he dodge the bullet or will some miracle save him? He new that Judas was going to betray him and yet he did nothing. He new the Romans were coming and yet he stayed. Will he stay for the bullet that he knows will end his life? How will he be resurrected? The first time he kept the wounds of the crucifixion, will he lose his head? And importantly, how can he be the second coming if he is dead?