Mature Religious Discussion

[Crono]

Oops.. that "if you still do not understand, I pity you" quote was directed to Acumelus back on pg. 5.. this time it can be ignored.

 

[SnorSnor]

Since no one is getting anywhere, there are a couple books that provide arguments for Christianity. One is called The Case for Christ, the other is called The Case for Faith. I haven't read the first but I heard it's good.
The Case for Christ is about a guy, a former athiest named Lee Strobel, searching evidence if Christ's ressurrection is real. He goes to see famous, smart people about these things, who can provide evidence for him and things like that.
Then he wrote the next book, The Case for Faith, which asks things like "Why does God allow this?" or "Well if evolution is true, then God isn't." Stuff like this. They can do a much better job than here.

But anyway, Lee, after all his searching, ended up being a Christian because of the things he found about it.

Maybe you can check out your library if you want. But, they are just suggestions, since this is geting us nowhere.

Have a nice day

 

[The Last Great Adventurer]

Originally posted by Crono:
<strong>Last Great Adventurer:
But one group of monkeys was having a hard time. After many generations, their genes adjusted to these changes (something called ADAPTATION) and they lived comfortably. </strong>

I hate to tell you this Crono but its a well known fact that animals can't just "Grow" new abilitys because they are needed. Girafs didn't grow long necks because they had to reach high leves, the girafs that were born with long necks could reach high leves so they did. If and animale ajustes its physical form it does not pass geneticly. If your hand was cut off you doen't pass the "lack of hand" gene on becauese it doesn't exist. Evolution is the result of random mutations that prove to be a benifit to the animals that reseve then. if it isn't a benifit then the trait doesn't catch on and the speices stays the same.

So in closeing its not the enviroment that causes the anmales to evolve its the mutations of the anmals in a usful way to fit the enviroment that causes evolution.

 

[Cos.]

I hope I don't disturb too many people writing this.
Noone can proof anything. And why then even proof something that is of no use anyway. Maybe we should first know how to live write, then find out who we are in the moment, what our goal is, try to achieve that, then maybe start thinking what our history is. We would first save ourselves from making such debates and also be freed from a great weight of unknowing. But ofcourse if someone has done everything I just wrote, then continiue debating. Please write if you have absolutely no sypathy for my thought.

 

[Crono]

Last great adventurer:

1. Learn how to spell. Please takr the time to proofread, otherwise, you look like a simpleton.
2. Gain a better understanding of evolution and darwinism before you argue this again. Though as far as I know, you are on my side, but you just don't have enough knowledge or experience on this subject to in any way benefit my side.

Also, giraffes originally didn't have long necks. After many generations, the necks gradually lengthened, A short necked giraffe NEVER gave birth to a long necked giraffe. Evolution is extremely slow. You cannot assume a monkey suddenly gave birth to a human, for example. Evolution just doesn't work that way.

 

[MasterOfTheSwords]

Originally posted by Crono:

Now, I have provided evidence, though you choose to ignore them. <hr></blockquote> Yes, because it doesn't prove anything. My sincerest. Originally posted by Mm Mm Gopher:

Like I said, all we can do here is state our opinions and the rationale for them. <hr></blockquote> This is true...even if somebody did provide some sort of 100% accurate evidence that they could show us a source on the net for, it would just be denied and badly countered by the other side. We're wasting our time here...I say we should just drop it. Originally posted by Liquid Entropy:

Acum,
I am breaking out a bible, and I'm doing some
outside research.
I am taking your precious site appart, piece by
piece.

I'll post it, all of it, when I'm done.
<hr></blockquote> Oh, please. This should be funny...go ahead, do your little dissection. It won't get you anywhere. :D

 

[MasterOfTheSwords]

Originally posted by Crono:

Now, I have provided evidence, though you choose to ignore them. <hr></blockquote> Yes, because it doesn't prove anything. My sincerest. Originally posted by Mm Mm Gopher:

Like I said, all we can do here is state our opinions and the rationale for them. <hr></blockquote> This is true...even if somebody did provide some sort of 100% accurate evidence that they could show us a source on the net for, it would just be denied and badly countered by the other side. We're wasting our time here...I say we should just drop it. Originally posted by Liquid Entropy:

Acum,
I am breaking out a bible, and I'm doing some
outside research.
I am taking your precious site appart, piece by
piece.

I'll post it, all of it, when I'm done.
<hr></blockquote> Oh, please. Since when would you even look in a Bible? You aren't a Christian and have no reason to own one, and not being a Christian, you'd be lucky to understand every second verse. This should be funny...go ahead, do your little dissection. It won't get you anywhere. :D

 

[Crono]

I am eagerly awaiting your dissection, Liquid Entropy. Fight the power!

 

[Mike Larkenson]

You seem to stick to the idea that what you posted was right because it came from a website.
You know you're so ignorant, it makes me wonder if you've even gone to that site. Have you even seen what they said? OMG,it had me doubled over and laughing. LE, can't wait till your post. Ya AN, will be laughing. He'll be laughing because after he realizes the site was so biased and wrong, his posts were useless and full of umproclaimed, unheard of, and silly evidence.
Time for me to go make me a site about how computers aren't real..........

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Larkenson ]</p>

 

[Xero0]

I am a strong Christian but i do have a life...i have a girlfriend and love super smash melee (cant wait) I believe there is one God and i see this every day through little things in life. why do you think people say OMG? Just curious

 

[BenFoldsFive]

It seems like a lot of people are pissed off or maybe just mad or something. Why though? Look I know we all got different beliefs. We shouldnt be trying to make no one else feel stupid or anything cause this should just be a debate: One person states their belief, whats their source, and why they think its true. I mean people keep trying to blast christianity. There isnt nothing wrong with it really at all when you think about it. Sure its not like every christian is a nice guy, but who is always a nice guy. Just look and Jesus and really ask yourself what did he do wrong that anyone can really blast him? Maybe hes blasted so much cause humans hate to face him as their leader? Look I aint trying to cause anger or nothin but why is christianity blasted so much more than other beliefs yet no one can show any proof that it could be wrong. Why's it so hard to believe, is what my main question is.

 

[BenFoldsFive]

Look Jesus never sinned, really he didnt, I mean hes the Son of God for goodness sake! And though not all you believe, I dont think telling you my beliefs is anything offenses so dont start blasting my Lord or anything. if your eyes arent open it aint my fault, and I dont mean anyone inperticuler. Any way I'll pray for all you

 

[Pumaman]

I just learned this today and found it kind of interesting. Einstein was the first to come up with the Big Bang Theory, but he believed God was behind it. Supposevily, he he got mad when people said that disproved the existance of God. Thought this would be the best place to share. Analyse it any way you want, just realize the Big Bang theory doesn't nesscerily disprove the existence of God. Plus, I personally don't think evolution disproves God's existense either. I think the Old Testament is mainly metaphors...I think that may just be my personal belief, though...

 

[Mike Larkenson]

Originally posted by BenFoldsFive:
<strong>It seems like a lot of people are pissed off or maybe just mad or something. Why though? Look I know we all got different beliefs. We shouldnt be trying to make no one else feel stupid or anything cause this should just be a debate: One person states their belief, whats their source, and why they think its true. I mean people keep trying to blast christianity. There isnt nothing wrong with it really at all when you think about it. Sure its not like every christian is a nice guy, but who is always a nice guy. Just look and Jesus and really ask yourself what did he do wrong that anyone can really blast him? Maybe hes blasted so much cause humans hate to face him as their leader? Look I aint trying to cause anger or nothin but why is christianity blasted so much more than other beliefs yet no one can show any proof that it could be wrong. Why's it so hard to believe, is what my main question is.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And you're the one that made the topic saying Jesus is the way and all of that sh*t.Hmmmmm.....
And we are not bashing christianity. We are trying to prove evolution and the big bang. In this way, we are also disproving christianity.
And you're telling us to just post what our belief is? This is a DEBATE.
It's hard to believe because it's more logical to go the more simpler way.
Like someone said earlier, what would you believe if you were say, born in a place where only Hinduism was practiced. There's no doubt in my mind that you would be saying Hinduisim is the way and that all other religions are wrong.

 

[SnorSnor]

I would like to see LE's thing he's making too.

BTW, if anyone cares, you can check out those two books.

 

[Etched in a Box]

Ben, what are you defending Jesus for? Do you know what we are arguing about? No one has been putting down the name of Jesus.

 

[Pumaman]

Originally posted by Mike Larkenson:
<strong>
We are trying to prove evolution and the big bang. In this way, we are also disproving christianity.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know Big Bang and evolution doesn't disprove the existence of God, but I don't think it disproves Christianity. Perhaps if you believe every single word of the Bible is to be taken literally, but that's it. Einstein, who started the Big Bang theory, thought that God cretaed the Big Bang.

 

[Mike Larkenson]

But you see thats "Einstein". Thats what he thought. The theory doesn't state that though because their is no evidence "God" started it. He can only put the parts supported by facts in it or otherwise some christians may have seen it as a another creation blow off.
And yes, by proving evolution and the big bang theories right, we are disproving christianity. Christianity doesn't take the bible literally. But they do follow it. And it doesn't follow those theories.
If tommorow scientists were to prove creation 100%, and everyone believed. Do you think those people are still xians? No, because evolution doesn't support creationism. They just don't mix the way they are both currently stated. Same with the Big Bang, if Einstein would have said God created the Big Bang, the theory would still be very much different than the bible. Read up on those two theories(Big Bang and Evolution). You'll see how they don't mix with Creationism.

 

[Crono]

Pumaman, what is in your sig isn't irony.

 

[The Last Great Adventurer]

Originally posted by Mike Larkenson:
<strong>But you see thats "Einstein". Thats what he thought. The theory doesn't state that though because their is no evidence "God" started it. He can only put the parts supported by facts in it or otherwise some christians may have seen it as a another creation blow off.
And yes, by proving evolution and the big bang theories right, we are disproving christianity. Christianity doesn't take the bible literally. But they do follow it. And it doesn't follow those theories.
If tommorow scientists were to prove creation 100%, and everyone believed. Do you think those people are still xians? No, because evolution doesn't support creationism. They just don't mix the way they are both currently stated. Same with the Big Bang, if Einstein would have said God created the Big Bang, the theory would still be very much different than the bible. Read up on those two theories(Big Bang and Evolution). You'll see how they don't mix with Creationism.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If there is no evolution then why is every Vertibeaed animal on earth have the same bone structure? (That includes Humans!) I to belive that God didnot just creat us. I belive god set into motion the events that lead to our rise on earth. That way we would exist within to bounds of what the earth could sopport. Beign part of the world and not a forein body.

 

[Kid Icarus]

I am a Christian, but I have to admit, the Bible is basically all we have as proof of a God. But sometimes.....you just have to hav faith and believe. There are so many good things out there in life that can be better if you are saved by Jesus. I'm not trying to convert you or anything, but I'm saying why most people becomes Chistians, to worship God who is greater than anything else. To think that we evolved form slime is an embarrassment(yes, some people believe we evolved from slime). If you don't believe in God, why do you celebrate Christmas, because Chrsitmas is the official celebration of Jesus's birth. That is all

 

[BenFoldsFive]

Look If I was born in a Hindu or Islamic environment, I might hear that is true and believe it. But if you really search it out with all your heart you'll find the truth. Trust me, you will find Jesus.

 

[Dr. Charizard]

-_-;

Some of you people are no better than Nazis... I only had to read a few of these posts to realise that this post is turning into a ground of persecuting each others beliefs... Some people in this world need to learn that their own opinion is not the final judgement for everything, and that everyone in the world doesn't need to have the exact same one as you. Arguments like these only spawn war and hate, besides, they never usually even get anywhere. Ever see someone just suddenly say, "Oh yeah, you're right, and I'm a wrong idiot. Now I'll just shut up and go away and try to be right more often..."

You can't disprove beliefs, no matter how hard you try. You all think you're right, and remember, if anyone tries to change or persecute your beliefs, you should tell them to shut the **** up and to keep their own opinions.

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Dr. Charizard ]</p>

 

[Ghastriph]

I'm a newomer to the site, and have read every single post in this thread.

I am a Christian of about 2-3 years. I was not born into Christianity, but a few years ago, I went to church with a pal of mine...a few months later I accepted Christ into my life and became saved.

I see everyone here trying to "disprove" Christianity. HOW can you disprove something that is based on faith.? The truly great thing about Christianity is that it is based on my faith in the lord, Jesus Christ. I am reading the Bible, and it is impacting my life greatly.

Just as you can't disprove Christianity or God, you can't prove it either. that's the wonderful thing about it. God gives us free will to choose and to believe and have faith.

I have faith....

some people don't....

 

[Akira]

But if you really search it out with all your heart you'll find the truth. Trust me, you will find Jesus. <hr></blockquote>

I was born and raised in an area where I didn't know any non-christians (including my parents). Everyone at school was a christian. I was brought up being brain-washed into believing that christianity was the right way or I was going to he11.
But, in spite of not knowing anyone with diffrent beliefs I didn't buy all the propaganda. I started asking if Xianity and Jesus was real, and was promptly told I was going to he11. Now, at the time I was quite young, and what people said about he11 scared the $hit out of me (my theory why most Xians remain so being basically this).
So, I reached out.
I tried to find your "god".
What came of it?


Nothing.

I tried a bit more, but nothing.
At about this time (I'm about 10 now) I got my computer, and with it, the internet.I started doing research, and found out about things like the Inquistion (which of course was never mentioned around where I lived). I found out some alternate opinions on things, and I realized what was happening to those all around me.
They were being brainwashed into a fictitious lie.
Finally, we moved to the city. Unforunately, I was placed in a Catholic school. By now I was quite tired of all this and talked about it at at school.
I was there a total of 2 months.
My time at that school, and the ridicules lies they stuffed down the students throates made it all clear to me. Xianity is a sham, a fake, an evil empire that dominates peoples lives.

So, was I just forsaken? Every possible chance to become an Xian, which I tried, but saw through. Did your Jesus not love me? *shrug* in any case, I lead a happy, free-minded life now.Lol, After enough conversations my mom, she became an agnostic.I likely would have done the same for my father, but I stopped talking to him (on unrealted issues).

So, why did I not find jesus? I think it's because he was a normal, mortal man. Nothing else (except possibly the greatest con-artist the world has ever seen).

 

[Ghastriph]

My my, snorsnor, how unchristian of you.. condoning the deaths of men, no matter what sins they have committed? Shame shame. Isn;t it sin to condone such a thing? Now go pray to your sky pixie stick man for repentence.
Amazing. It truly is amazing how you xians contradict yourselves like this.<hr></blockquote>

God demands justice at all times. If justice=execution, then so be it.

 

[Ghastriph]

and found out about things like the Inquistion (which of course was never mentioned around where I lived).<hr></blockquote>

Please don't think the Spanish Inquisition is condoned by Christians....because, it most definitely not.

that's like saying the Attacks on America on September 11'th are condoned by the Muslims (read:: Osama Bin Laden is no Muslim)

 

[Akira]

Please don't think the Spanish Inquisition is condoned by Christians....because, it most definitely not. <hr></blockquote>
Whether or not you condone it now is of no consequence, the point is that thousands were burned alive (ever wonder what that feels like?) by a unified Christian society. It's just an example of the many horrors brought about by religon.

 

[Ghastriph]

Whether or not you condone it now is of no consequence, the point is that thousands were burned alive (ever wonder what that feels like?) by a unified Christian society. It's just an example of the many horrors brought about by religon.<hr></blockquote>

What I'm trying to say is:

Don't judge Christianity from what insane radicals decide to do. Just as you wouldn't judge the Muslim religion from what Osama has done.

btw- I'm pretty sure Spain was Catholic.

 

[Ashitaka]

I thnk r right outnt judgeng Christians becausewe hav a belief and i well woult kow but people have said that whe someone i abou ot kill yu for your belife tat something just come over you.
Now i your a christin i know you want to do that for your beleifes......right?
I hope tha if iever get in that predickament tat i would chose to die for Crist.

 

[anannomous]

A****aka... not to be rude but what did you just say?

 

[Mike Larkenson]

Originally posted by Ghastriph:
<strong>I'm a newomer to the site, and have read every single post in this thread.

I am a Christian of about 2-3 years. I was not born into Christianity, but a few years ago, I went to church with a pal of mine...a few months later I accepted Christ into my life and became saved.

I see everyone here trying to "disprove" Christianity. HOW can you disprove something that is based on faith.? The truly great thing about Christianity is that it is based on my faith in the lord, Jesus Christ. I am reading the Bible, and it is impacting my life greatly.

Just as you can't disprove Christianity or God, you can't prove it either. that's the wonderful thing about it. God gives us free will to choose and to believe and have faith.

I have faith....

some people don't....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, if you've read every post in here, you'd find out we already know we can't disprove nor prove xianity.
Oh ya, and for whoever asked why we celebrate xmas even though we aren't xians, it's because we're greedy.

 

[Cos.]

It's not because people are greedy. Our system was established by Christians and their holidays and some other procedures stay in our culture. Things don't change that fast.

 

[Ghastriph]

Ok, if you've read every post in here, you'd find out we already know we can't disprove nor prove xianity.<hr></blockquote>

Then why has this topic gone for 173-odd posts? It seems that Crono could've said "Christianity can't be proven nor disproven" in the first post, and saved us all the time and effort of reading 173 posts, eh?

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: Ghastriph ]</p>

 

[ChronoElemental]

CAN we please just leave this post to R.I.P.?! Peace is the key word.

 

[King Bowser]

while this doesnt have much to do with the debate(in my mind anyways) here is my thought on Christians, i admit right off i an not one, most people who know me(and redicule me) know this, i think that there are 'Good' christians, and 'Bad' christains, now what is the differance you ask? the 'Good' ones, respect other people's right to believe whatever the h*** they want, while on the flipside, 'Bad' Christains attempt to make you think that only their way is right...i have met quite a few of both.....and a couple of people in the middle(if i dont bring up the subject of religion around them, i'm ok with them) another example of a 'Bad' Christian, is someone who redicules someone else and then claims they were put on this earth by God and will go to heaven as long as they believe in him, my thoughts on that are this, if there really is a 'God' he judges you on how you act, not what or who you believe(i know this was said before, i dont remember by who, but i agree with them) Now flame me if you want, i have had my say in this...

K. Bowser

 

[Ghastriph]

Indeed, Bowser, there are good and bad Christians.

BUT, doesn't that apply to everything in the world? Good/bad politicians,teachers,parents, etc.

another example of a 'Bad' Christian, is someone who redicules someone else and then claims they were put on this earth by God and will go to heaven as long as they believe in him, my thoughts on that are this, if there really is a 'God' he judges you on how you act, not what or who you believe(i know this was said before, i dont remember by who, but i agree with them).<hr></blockquote>

I see what you are saying. But GOD says himself that "no one gets to Heaven but through me." God doesn't judge people on deeds. If he did, nobody would get to Heaven.

thank you for your input, Bowser.

 

[androza]

Would people stop posting the whiney "Its impossible to prove either" posts? Its really annoying, and we obviously dont care. We are going to debate this until all of us grow tired of the topic, or it gets closed. Youre taking away posts from the argument, which is extremely interesting.

 

[Etched in a Box]

Originally posted by Ghastriph:
<strong>

What I'm trying to say is:

Don't judge Christianity from what insane radicals decide to do. Just as you wouldn't judge the Muslim religion from what Osama has done.

btw- I'm pretty sure Spain was Catholic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Those were not radicals then. That was the standard at the time, everyone believed what they were doing was "right," even if they had to beat the Christianity into some people. The same goes for the Salem witch trials. Everyone really believed there were witches and several innocent Puritans were caught up in the rush known as religion. Luckily it is not as extreme anymore.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Excuse me?
Extremism has toned down?
Not at all. We just happen to luckily live in a society that shuns extremists. They still exist in full force. The Christian Coalition. There's your homegrown American religious hate group. How about abortion clinic bombers?
And where'd you get the idea that only our country matters? al-Qaeda is a great example of a religious hate group.
Religion, being by nature based on tricking people into mindlessly following, is the perfect way to lead masses into hate acts. Even your precious Christianity.

BenFoldsFive:
You can tell that if you had been born a Hindu or a Muslim, you'd have been tricked into believing them. Why can you not see that you are being tricked into believing Christianity?

BTW, I firmly believe that it is definitely possible to prove or disprove "God"'s existence. You can't prove or disprove the existence of A god, but you can prove or disprove THE God. That is because you can prove or disprove the Bible, which is supposedly the word of God.

Since we have all seen BenFoldsFive's hilarious website, "www.clarifyingchristianity.com", I'd like to show you all a great website which disproves every single word of Ben's site as bunk. I got this site from smack, so props to himf or finding it.
<a href="http://www.freethought.freeservers.com" target="_blank">http://www.freethought.freeservers.com</A>
<a href="http://www.freethought.freeservers.com" target="_blank">www.freethought.freeservers.com</a>

This site lays down the scientific funk. Go to Ben's site, and this one, and read them both thoroughly. Then make your own deductions.

-B