Matchup Export: Ike

[fromundaman]

PS1 not being Kirby's favor? You're obviously clueless to think that so I'll be the one to correct ya. And understandably no one is gonna have PTAD as an option but I don't think that means we shouldn't talk about it since it can be an option.

To be fair, PS1 is actually a very good stage for Ike as well. This will sound weird coming from me of all people, but for this MU, I feel BF and especially YI are better starters (Yeah, I think BF is better than PS1 for this MU. Crazy...)

 

[Heartstring]

well ps1 ike has f-throw chaingrabs against the walls on fire and rock stages, if gets banned i always go there

 

[C~Dog]

Kirby has jab lock against the walls on those parts.

 

[Heartstring]

jab locks dont happen unless it has a sligth roof on it like the left side of the burnt tree or the wall on the rainbow ride ship
fthrow still works though, and it un-stale's eeverything else

 

[Lord Viper]

Lylat isn't Kirby's advantage. It's probably "even" ground for them. Same with YI unless Kirby has a Down B glitch there. I know he has it on Pictochat and Brinstar.

★ I don't know, Kirby does really well on tilts stages since his F-Smash, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Down-B even Up-B flows along with the tilts. The platforms is good for Kirby's grab strings with D-Throw when he's below the platforms in Lylat Cruise, best on characters that's not floaty. Plus how safe and easy it is to gimp along with the random luck when the stage tilts making Ike's recovery options unsafe. Yoshi's Island gives Kirby an easier gimp on Ike than Lylat Cruise, except the stage doesn't tilt, just the platforms. The blast zones are closer outside the stage than Lylat Cruise is the reason why it's easier. And of course, D-Throw grab strings under the platform works easier on Yoshi's Island. The only areas of Stone glitch I know other than Pictochat and Brinstar is PS1 Water field on the top of the windmill. ♛

The only thing that has changed MU wise is that we now have an idea of what % Bthrow -> Dash Attack is a true combo. On average it's 15% to 90%. I think on Kirby it's like, 19% to 86% or something like that.

★ I have to see how that works. ♛

 

[AN(M)ist]

★ Match up wise, I don't think this match up change over the year. Still an advantage match up I'll say. ♛

Well the MU hasn't changed much from our side either. I see how this goes in favor for Kirby; but 'how much advantage' really comes down to how effectively Kirby can close in to rack damage and eventually KO. Ike has really good tools to keep Kirby off him and also KO him at early percents. Hence 55:45 Kirby.
Some Ike mains do think it to be even though. Some legit points being Kirby's offstage play being compensated with Ike's kill power and Kirby's close-in strategy being compensated with Ike's keep-out strategy.

 

[fromundaman]

jab locks dont happen unless it has a sligth roof on it like the left side of the burnt tree or the wall on the rainbow ride ship
fthrow still works though, and it un-stale's eeverything else

Jab lock is really the wrong word. However, Dtilt and jab can keep you trapped against the walls without it being 'jablocks'. Also, Kirby can shoot through walls on this stage.

That being said, Pika and Ike are two characters I wouldn't bring to PS1. Maybe Marth too.

 

[Ussi]

Kirby's positional advantage on RC's boat is below the platforms, close to the wall. We can string moves with platforms nearby, and the wall stops us from sliding too far if someone hits our shield with a strong attack, not to mention the obvious "I'm below you" stuff that Kirby can do if an opponent is on higher ground. That's Kirby's optimal position against Ike, since being close to the sides of the ship means we'll be close to the blastzones, and good ol' Ike likes to hit hard.

Kirby's positional advantage on the side-scrolling area on top of RC is simply remaining ahead of Ike. Eventually we'll all have to go down, and Ike will be forced to go down on the falling platforms at the left side of the big block, or he will go down on the jump-through platforms on its right side. Either choice is a good thing for Kirby, since you're indirectly approaching us, else you risk dying off the top...


That's our optimal positions, but we can do very well throughout the whole stage, provided we stay ahead and force you to indirectly approach us.

Platforms + wall = Ike's game as well

During the side-scrolling, Ike can do the same thing in a sense, and he has bthrow > dash attack which is very dangerous during the temporary walk off if positioned right.

sound's like a fair game to me.

 

[fromundaman]

We definitely have better CPs than RC IMO (Although we do also have some instant-KO throws on RC, but yeah), like Japes and Frigate.

Oh, don't let Ike bring you to Norfair or Green Greens.

 

[Ussi]

Frigate is definally your best bet IMO. Although i don't know what Boost Kirby gets on Japes. What are stage specific tricks he has on japes?

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Ussi, Kirbicide auto-inhale break= instant kill.

That's really the end of it.

 

[Ussi]

How does that work? o____o I don't understand the concept not being knowledgeable to that extent with kirby.

 

[SkylerSilver]

How does that work? o____o I don't understand the concept not being knowledgeable to that extent with kirby.

Its works when X character breaks out of Kirby's inhale and Kirby is able is footstool X character when they break out. Certain characters can actually footstool Kirby out the inhale-break. (Lucario, DK, etc. I think?)

 

[AN(M)ist]

But does it not depend on what angle the X character breaks free from inhale? I remember when Kirby swallows me and I break free, I'm sometimes above kirby and not below. Not sure how this works though.

Also, aren't character's moves available to them the moment they come out of kirby's mouth so that they could do uair or something before kirby actually footstools them?

 

[Ussi]

How does that kill on Japes?.. wouldn't the water keep you alive? course if it was on the left side then yea..

 

[Triple R]

Yeah, they did a bad job explaining the jape trick lol. If Kirby inhales an opponent in the left gap and lands in the water both characters will be swept away and Kirby should always survive. Depending on the position you fall in the water the swallowed opponent may or may not have time to jump of the of water and try to recover.

 

[Heartstring]

yeah, against ike, if the kirby jumps into the water from in-between the left and centre platform's, ike will always die and the kirby will always come back, it wouldn't be so bad if ike had a projectile of some sort.
but obviously he doesn't

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Ussi- Refer to RRRs post. >_> That's what I'm refering to.

 

[san.]

NO, if Ike gets into the water in between the left and center platforms, it is easy to survive. If the inhale thing will work on Ike if it works on the majority of the cast, though.

Seriously, didn't we do this like a month ago? Thought we all agreed it was even, maybe kirby slight favor.

Inhale? I can't think Kirby would be able to pull this move off very easily on Ike. The only reasons I could think is if the Ike makes a completely bad mistake or misspaces an aerial and kirby grab armors the aerial. Even harder on japes because Ike can pretty much aether all he wants, and if he gets a spike and you can't stop yourself from entering the water, that's a free potential spike for Ike. Can't see either cases happening too much because Kirby's not going to jump into aether like that.

The matchup is about pure spacing and keep in/keep out tactics. Aren't many gimmicks as far as I could tell for both sides.

 

[Ussi]

San, i think it'd be best to just try to recover yourself from it tp confirm it

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah, bad explaining. You can't footstool Ike out of inhale to my knowledge.

However, on Japes, when you inhale someone and jump in the water, the character in Kirby's mouth will break out further in the direction Kirby was facing, so if he jumps in between the left platform and the main one while facing the left, the character in his mouth will break out somewhere under the left platform and not have time to get out before dying, whereas Kirby can recover, being further from the blastzone.

 

[Heartstring]

exactly, thats what i was trying to say, but in my usual dumbfounded manner, i didnt explain well XD
anyway, because of ike's rather linear recovery i dont think we can get back to the ledge, and even if we can it would be a fairly easy edgeguard, and from the left side of the left platform we DEFINETELY cant get back

 

[Sage JoWii]

I think I just realized something: Who cares? We'll never play an Ike in tournament LMAO!

jk jk

>_> I think this discussion is just about finished; A1! Where's a summary.

 

[fromundaman]

I think I just realized something: Who cares? We'll never play an Ike in tournament LMAO!

jk jk

>_> I think this discussion is just about finished; A1! Where's a summary.

Realistically speaking, you're absolutely right. While this isn't a bad MU for us, there's a **** good chance that any secondary you play will do better.

****, I prefer using Ganon and Mario vs Ike XD

 

[Sage JoWii]

I go TL; can anyone say ****?

 

[Heartstring]

i use ike pretty much exclusively, but he isnt as bad as its being made out, he just a victim to a lot of stuff

 

[AN(M)ist]

Toon Link doesn't **** Ike, his projectiles are just a big annoyance. Shield dashing and AD ftw. But lets not talk about TL here. Wut you guys agree on the MU? even or slight adv. kirby?

 

[Heartstring]

to be honest on neutral stages i'd go for 50/50
but with america's new pont of view on legal stages, i think kirby just has more useful gimmicks, most tiny advantage kirby just for the diffferent ruleset
52.5/47.5 kirby favour XD

 

[Sage JoWii]

@ Golden Psycho- You're wrong.

@ This thread- Addressing MU 'RATING' not ratio because that's not what we do here on Kirby boards, I'd have to say Kirby slight advantage. I'd say they go even because neither really has any specific advantages through stages or when you compare the two side-by-side. BUT! Kirby does **** Ike offstage and that's a significant advantage and against even a good Ike, I'd say, about 1/5 to 1/3 of the match will take place getting Ike offstage and on the ledge.

 

[Lord Viper]

Toon Link doesn't **** Ike, his projectiles are just a big annoyance. Shield dashing and AD ftw. But lets not talk about TL here. Wut you guys agree on the MU? even or slight adv. kirby?

★ I thought the match up was just an advantage. =P ♛

★ Kirby's grab strings on Ike can easily damage him around 20-30% due to Ike not being floaty. Major things to worry about Kirby is getting off stage, B-Air, and grab strings. Only question I have is what is Ike's best approach on Kirby? ♛

to be honest on neutral stages i'd go for 50/50
but with america's new pont of view on legal stages, i think kirby just has more useful gimmicks, most tiny advantage kirby just for the diffferent ruleset
52.5/47.5 kirby favour XD

★ Stages only changes the character playstyle, not the match up. Example, Kirby has lots of stages against Marth, but that doesn't change the match up that Marth has an advantage, (some people say even). ♛

 

[Heartstring]

well jowii i was gonna ask you to explain why im wrong, but viper did it for you.
okay, but im jsut saying there are stages which would make kirby's job easier and they are more effective (and more abundant for that matter) than ike has vs. kirby, i wa just throwing that in as another factor, stages do sorta effect the matchup

 

[Sage JoWii]

Stages IMO do effect MU but only slightly and even still if you wanna throw stages into this particular MU all it does it move the MU more into Kirby's favor; from slight advantage to advantage.

@ Golden Crazyperson- I figure that one of the Kirbehs would have my back; I just like being a **** sometimes. Viper said what I was thinking as far as the stage part of your post goes but for the ratios you gave I left the 'You're wrong' comment. For the rating part you can refer to my post as well.

 

[fromundaman]

I disagree, for Kirby, stages can affect MUs pretty strongly, depending on the MUs and the stage. That being said, it doesn't really make a huge difference for this MU IMO. slight advantage or even sounds about right to me.

 

[Sage JoWii]

@fromundaman- Ya, maybe I was hasty with my words; for THIS particular MU I don't think stages affect it too much. Others are more influenced by stages but not this one.

 

[Heartstring]

well yeah the stages do effect it an amount, for example, we're pretty much gonig to be forced to ban frigate if we win the first game, this means you can take us to rainbow cruise or a personal favourite, whereas if you finish the first game we havent really got anywhere to take you that we have an obvious advantage on (i would say battlefield might be our choice but anyone playing an ike should ban that stage anyway)
i was thiking its about 50:50 ish, but stage advantages might tip it to make the tiniest advantage.
or becauseo f offstage shenanigans it might make the matchup 55:45, not much of a difference anyway

 

[Sage JoWii]

It's not much of a difference but in every post you say it's evenish; it's a lie?

You say it'd be the tiniest advantage w/ stages or offstage shenanigans, but as Kirby we have BOTH, which pretty easily rules out even. Slgith advantage at it's best, advantage @ it's worst; both Kirbeh favor.

A1, where's that summary! (Or you could take my first post, adjust it w/ everyone else's input and it'll be a customized summary like the Yoshi one; makes life easier)

 

[fromundaman]

Psh, I'll take Ike to BF. I'm not ascurred! Green Greens ban all day!

 

[Heartstring]

ok then green greens ban, im going from my perspective, where we still have the 5-stage neutral list and about 6 counterpicks

 

[Sage JoWii]

Reacting is the best way to handle this MU.

BTW A1, where's mah summary.