Matchup Discussion

[n00b]

Hey, @ n00b . Weren't you going to organize all the good info here in the OP?

Thank you for holding me accountable for this thread. I've updated the OP with the most thorough commentary on matchups. If I could request some tips, it would be for Lucario. I thought I downloaded one on for Glory last night and started punishing his rolls, but what becomes problematic besides his really strong roll is that Samus gets combo'd when he's at low percents, and takes more damage/knockback when he's at high percents. Lucario's recovery and evasiveness is decently good against Samus and can camp with a fast charge shot as well, many trades are not in Samus's favor given how much KO potential Lucario has. His recovery is really good and gets better with damage, so gimping is difficult. His throw is really good too, which is where I'd get most of my damage from. I'd dash around putting up shield looking for rolls, would get grabbed instead, then over the course of a few matches the Lucario would do a good job of rolling safely and challenging my shield with a grab. Not sure how to get around that.

 

[EnGarde]

Tagging @ MythTrainerInfinity

A lot of information is already available on this thread (Link) in the Lucario forum.

Spoiler

Lucario has a solid approach option with short hop aerials, which can be problematic to block since u smash and u tilt have starting lag. You can attempt to use short hop z air to push lucario back, but that benefits lucario more than Samus, since it does negligible damage that powers up lucario's aura. Attempting to set stuff up with bombs is doable, but problematic for the same reasons (powers up lucario's aura).

I think Samus's grab can be used to punish lucario attempting to use force palm from 1 character space away (but I'm not entirely sure--I could have been anticipating based on spacing rather than reacting to the animation startup), but this becomes difficult when lucario is at higher percents and and can strike at you from further away (force palm activates before grab reaches lucario). Grab by itself isn't really powerful enough to do much to lucario, and lucario can generally get out of hit stun fast enough to get away from a lot of grab combo attempts (might be because I'm a new player, though).

Also, beware lucario's u tilt. Lucario can generally land a string of them while we're trapped in hitstun (this is DI-able, though).

Personally, I don't think this is a matchup in our favor, though again, I'm a new player, and I'm still building up skill. :S

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c1no8lainkxo2z9/Smash 4 Lucario chart.xlsx?dl=

In Smash 4 there is a 9% priority rule. If something does 9% more it will outprioritize the other move.

With that in mind a Lucario at:

• 32% with a fresh fully charged Aura Sphere will beat your regular Missile (5%).
• 88% with a fresh fully charged Aura Sphere will beat your Super Missile (10%).
• 8% with a fresh fully charged Aura Sphere beats your uncharged Charge Shot (3%).
• We will never beat a fully charge Charge Shot unless you horribly stale it :x

We've lost a lot of Air options from the transition from Brawl and gained grab combos and Aura is even more insane. Once we get strong enough to camp it is going to be difficult to approach us.

Misc. stuffs.

• Lucario's Force Palm is really good at punishing anything laggy such as landings and your roll and it grows in size when we take damage. Since Samus is floaty we can punish landing with our FSmash, FTilt, DTilt, Aura Sphere, etc. fairly well. Force Palm can also be used to cancel projectiles and hit you at the same time if spaced right.
  
• At the center of an Omega stage in training mode a Lucario's FSmash kills when both characters are at 89% with no DI. Both hits of USmash at 92%. DSmash and BAir at 104%. Fully Charged Aura Sphere at 129%. Sweetspot UTilt at 147%. Start of UAir at 110%. Double Team at 100%.
  
• The biggest thing we Lucarios probably have to worry about is that 26% damage fully charged Charge Shot of yours. Otherwise... it'll be really hard to approach us on the ground. You can harass us below us if you space UAir properly and to a lesser extent your Screw Attack, but that's pretty darn risky.
• If the Lucario knows what they are doing watch out for pivots. For some reason Lucario's horizontal grab distance is like 2-3 times greater than his regular grab range (lol Sakurai).
  
• As mentioned before Lucario's UTilt at low % leads to a number of combos depending on if it is sweetspotted or not.
• So in short keep us off the ground and don't let us harass you with Aura Sphere. Don't be grabbing the ledge twice because at higher percents Aura Sphere WILL hit you.
• We need to do more research, but our Aura Sphere charge can lead to a number of shinanegans. Good Lucarios will master reversing their Aura Sphere in the air, so watch out for that.
  
• We're short, so hitting and spacing against us with ZAir will be tricky.

I personally feel this matchup is in Lucario's favor, but I need to do more research.

 

[n00b]

Thanks for the insight, @ MythTrainerInfinity . I must have played a good Lucario because he pretty much controlled the pace with everything you mentioned, even reversing Aura Spheres. It's harder on For Glory to keep him in the air due to the flat stages. And certain stages with infinite walls make it even harder to edgeguard him, especially with that boosted aura. I'll add your comments to the OP, thanks again!

 

[Pebbicle]

I faced a decent Samus earlier with my Lucario, 1v1. I would say that I had the first half of the game under control, but once I took his first stock, the guy started spamming a mix between the rockets and Charge Shot so there was really nothing I could do to keep up. The only thing I could think of was approaching from above however the person employed a "hit and run" tactic in which he hits me with rockets, rolls to the other side of the stage and fully charges a Charge Shot, fires it and repeats once I approach. Since I am a bit of a hothead I eventually lost patience and lost the game

I'm not really complaining, since I know there are ways to counter this, I just don't know how. What could've I done better? I didn't find the time to charge an Aura Sphere for example as when I did, the guy charged his own projectile etc. I can't figure out how I can face people like these, even though their strategy is annoying and flat out boring to play against.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I faced a decent Samus earlier with my Lucario, 1v1. I would say that I had the first half of the game under control, but once I took his first stock, the guy started spamming a mix between the rockets and Charge Shot so there was really nothing I could do to keep up. The only thing I could think of was approaching from above however the person employed a "hit and run" tactic in which he hits me with rockets, rolls to the other side of the stage and fully charges a Charge Shot, fires it and repeats once I approach. Since I am a bit of a hothead I eventually lost patience and lost the game

I'm not really complaining, since I know there are ways to counter this, I just don't know how. What could've I done better? I didn't find the time to charge an Aura Sphere for example as when I did, the guy charged his own projectile etc. I can't figure out how I can face people like these, even though their strategy is annoying and flat out boring to play against.

If they are abusing WiFi so that you can't perfect shield you can abuse it back by Double Team and roll spamming.

Also, Aura Sphere charge in her face. BReversals, woo. Also, spacing with Force Palm. At higher % you completely out range her.

We can also crawl under standing Super Missiles.

 

[Pebbicle]

If they are abusing WiFi so that you can't perfect shield you can abuse it back by Double Team and roll spamming.

Also, Aura Sphere charge in her face. BReversals, woo. Also, spacing with Force Palm. At higher % you completely out range her.

We can also crawl under standing Super Missiles.

Wow, thanks, some things I didn't know there!

Didn't think about Double Team, that's actually a smart way to avoid strong projectiles if all else fails. And I actually had no idea that it's possible to duck underneath the Missiles, that's good to know as well. B-Reversals are not something I'm very familiar with, though I suppose now is as good time as any to start practicing!

Are there other trivial/non-trivial things I should be familiar with? It's not that I'm particularly new to SBB, it's more that I usually stick to the basics instead of experimenting if you know what I mean, haha.

 

[leiraD]

So, against mario, his ground game is much faster than ours. His roll is quick, his dash attack is guick, his smashes with d-smash in particular- are quick. We can't try to contest this. Try fighting ev en a level 9 mario and you will see what I kean. Luckily, we are fighting humans, and not powershielding, perfect roll timing, safe-playing jerks.

A lot of mario players go in and cape if they see you charging up. Usually by ground. You get a grab. Oh, and while charging, simply press the grab button to immediately grab. Or if by air, we cancel our shot into shield and react accordingly. The best thing a Mario can do is to fake a ground approach, we whiff a grab, and they punish. The safest thing for them to do is to spam fireballs. I don't need to tell you how to evade spam.

So wehen mario gets a grab at low percents, expect a d-throw combo. You can airdodge after the first u-tilt so vector away and air dodge. Usually, they won't expect this. Do this enough and you get read and regrabbed.

So mario can easily roll past your ftilt or dtilt and then grab or dsmash.That Iis just how mario plays, so always expect rolls. Maybe don't make super hardnreads, but do know that it is coming, and prepare accordingly. Use low lag moves like ftilt always. Utilt of fair against air approaches, etc.

I found that samus can adequately juggle with up air. Hisdair vs my up air usually worked out for me, though probably because of disjoint. Can anyone shed light on samus up air versus mario dair?


THe main thingin this matchup is learning the mario's habit. They get too comfortable doing certain things, so much that I we should be ableto capitalize and land fsmashes. Watch how the get off ledge, how they react to aapproaches, how they react when you charge your charge shot, etc. You will always find that they have a preference to roll a certain way or whatever.

Also, always have a charge on hand, even if you decide that you'll never use it. It keeps the opponent on edge if only for the fact that they have a reflect that encourages them to use it. I got a few free grabs against a mario because they were too eager to cape a charged shot that never came. I have replays saved, but ill only upload if someone asks because in opinion, those matches were boring to watch over.Al

How do we feel about Luigi?

His dthrow combos in other aerials as well as his up tilt, and most of his aerials seem to outprioritize ours.

I know this is a double post and I am sorry, but the thread will not be bumped by an edited comment.

Wow great post. Really helpful. I'd love to see some replays if you have time to post them. Mario's aggro is hard to deal with for me.

 

[Afro Smash]

Faced a villager spamming lloid rocket and fair, how to beat pls ;-;

 

[Beard Hawk]

I found this in the Megaman forum so thought I'd share it here:

Samus on the other hand though...I really feel like this character is just Mega Man's anathema. I'd even be willing to say it's his absolute worst matchup. You have no advantage. A smart Samus will always play complete defense, and since you didn't have the range to compete with her that way you have to approach, and that plays right into her hands. She can shoot down metal blades with ease with missiles that shoot faster. She can stay away from you all day. A smart Samus will always have a charge ready which makes harassing with lemons actually risky. Coming in from the air is risky because her anti air is very solid, she's practically built to be an edge warrior so other than gimping with leaf shield when she's off the stage she just has more options than you do there. The list goes on and on, she's just built to be the perfect answer to MM's kit imo. Other than maybe pressing an attack when she doesn't have a charge ready (which is still not easy she can still play keep away) and harassing with lemons then...about the only silver lining I can think of is that she's probably one of the rarest characters to come across.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

In terms of the Lucario matchup, missiles are really important. Mixing up between homing to stagger his approach and super to prevent him from charging his neutral B is key. When is aura is low, we can easily exploit his lack of range by playimg keep away and forcing to approach but once his aura is full, our floatability, and our difficulty killing become a huge up hill battle not to mentiom the range on his side B invalidates any keep away game. Ledge guarding him is insanely difficult when his aura is high. The trick I feel with Lucario is to gimp him while his at around 40 while his recovery is relatively weak and we can land Dairs.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Faced a villager spamming lloid rocket and fair, how to beat pls ;-;

The secret is homing missiles.

 

[Beard Hawk]

Homing missiles work well against reflectors AND Link's shield. They are too weak to be reflected back, and slow enough to allow you to creep up between shots on Link.
Don't be afraid to charge shot characters who have reflectors. The ledge is a very safe place to fire from. Also, just hold onto a fully charged one to mess with their head. They will keep throwing out their mirror, so wait for that and punish.

 

[SonicTHP]

Pulled this from the Jigglypuff board:

Rolls can be punished with a chasing Fair if they roll away and a Nair if they roll towards you. I'll say that I have trouble vs people rolling only to charge their neutral b but that just means they are giving you free percents if they only roll. Its the ones that charge between their offense or defend themselves while charging that gets difficult.

Samus has every projectile that she (jiggs) wants (doesn't have). So we are forced to approach to do anything. Only playing defensive when they feel they can push an offensive up-close.

We can duck semi-charged shots and super missles. Normal missles don't go far but will track you so crouching doesn't work and our SH stuff gets blocked out. Her Zair(i'm gonna consider it a projectile even though I think it isn't) I believe can be crouched just don't crouch vs her grab instead(can someone check if samus' grab can get us while crouched, its been abit...). While I haven't seen many samus' using zair as an aerial offensive tool it has good reach and can stop our spacing.

Outside of projectiles most of samus' attacks are very precise. It's best to assume they know how to space and land their hits so our job is too make it as difficult as possible, by weaving in and out, for them to connect a good smash.

Unfortunately I haven't played enough samus' to talk 'bout her close game. either way they can and will go for scratch damage before getting close to get a kill.

Interesting note: I'm not sure if its her down smash or down tilt(or if im thinking of someone else) but the move where samus sweep her leg across the ground is not only laggy but her hurtbox is extended still after the sweep, so run up rest is very easy here.

Sorry if this is too general, I haven't studied samus' gameplan much

Edit: oh yeah, you can stay in the air(as in at least 1 full hop height) to avoid everything samus has but you can't do much from up there that the samus can't react to.

I was looking because I feel like Samus v Jiggs is really easy matchup for Samus unless Jiggs is on the very top of her game.

I play completely defensively using angled ftilts and utilts to keep tagging Jiggs with damage until she's essentially ready to pop from any KO move. This is not to say that you can't be wall-o-death'd especially due to floatiness, but keeping calm and just shutting down her approach works very effectively, even if it is less effective for other flying puffs (Kirby, MK).

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Pulled this from the Jigglypuff board:



I was looking because I feel like Samus v Jiggs is really easy matchup for Samus unless Jiggs is on the very top of her game.

I play completely defensively using angled ftilts and utilts to keep tagging Jiggs with damage until she's essentially ready to pop from any KO move. This is not to say that you can't be wall-o-death'd especially due to floatiness, but keeping calm and just shutting down her approach works very effectively, even if it is less effective for other flying puffs (Kirby, MK).

oh hey there

hmm well then since I'm here I'll ask:
What do each of you Samus players see in this(jiggs vs samus) MU?

 

[Afro Smash]

Im struggling a bit with Little Macs atm, they can close space so fast and Side B over projectiles so it isnt difficult for them to approach, and their jab combo comes out so fast its difficult to punish them with a grab after shielding a dash atk or w/e. And then its a prediction game around their counters when you manage to get them in the air. I usually win vs them, but they always give me trouble and better little macs i really struggle against. In fact people often to switch to little mac after I beat the first character they used

Just wondering if theres any particular strategies to make the match up easier, dropping more bombs etc.

I know theres already a section in the OP on Lil mac, but that doesnt really help me

 

[leiraD]

Projectiles to bait an approach, shield the hit, grab, down throw, uair, uair, zair, then run back to the edge with pivot missiles along the way, then try to bait for a grab again. Then backthrow. He'll start struggling to get back on the edge and you'll have the edge. Mac has horrible edge and return game.

 

[Afro Smash]

I wish it were as easy as you make it sound (maybe it is for you lol) but I find because his roll and approach is so fast, and samus' grab is so laggy, it can be easily punished. For instance they can sprint at you to bait the grab, roll back then easily run in to punish with w/e, and you cant just wait in shield forever, and missile start up is also laggy enough for him to punish with a dash atk if he's within half the stage of you. Also his jab combo usually comes out quicker than your grab after you shield his first attack, and his counter makes following down throw with aerials dangerous (although you can wait it out and hit with Charge Shot as he lands)

Also good macs will throw in their own grabs so you cant always just shield and grab yourself. Honestly I think it's just an unfavourable match up, Macs speed makes missiles almost worthless since he can close space so quickly, and then can punish Samus easily for any missed grabs.

I will start backthrowing when im by the ledge though, dunno why i didn't think of that, its also safest to jump above and attempt a spike after this imo since counter can punish you and bring him back towards the stage, and will avoid trading with Side B.

 

[Afro Smash]

Sorry to double post.. but another character I struggle with is Falco spamming reflector, since this makes dash attacks, dash grabs and projectiles useless, since it comes out so quick and outranges all of them.

Does short hop zair work and outrange it? and is there any other way to punish it?

 

[leiraD]

I have sort of a non-textbook approach to dealing with Falco's reflector. I try and diminish the player's confidence in the reliability of the reflector. Because its not held, like Fox's shine, there's a small window of lag in between uses. So I'll spam seeker missiles, throw in the occasional super missile, and work on charging a charge shot. Because the seeker missiles come slowly, its not super hard to reflect the first one, but the next few come at such awkward timings that they can be tough reflect. If he is able to reflect two or three seeker missiles, then I'll shoot a charge shot through the reflected missiles while concurrently staying prepared to the possible reflection. It can be so frustrating reflecting the homing missiles that a falco player often resorts to trying to jump over them instead. This, again, creates another opportunity either to rush in or fire a charge shot. Finally, the space animals have recoveries that are fairly easy for Samus to punish. The side-b can be spiked with dair and the up-b can be level spike with bair. Below is a link to a game I played a few weeks ago where I spiked Fox's side-b.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeht8TIOIl8

I hope some of that is helpful.

 

[Tasokun]

Any tips against Pikachu? Its thundershock spacing seems to counter all of my own spacing options, it's too tiny to reliably hit with zair or most aerials, its rush-down approach on the ground is a pain, its aerials are all top notch, and it easily gimps anything I can do on the ledge.

 

[The Seventh One]

How are you supposed to deal with link?

He spams projectiles faster then you can so you need to approach
His A attacks trump all your A attacks
I power shield the stuff all day but between his fast rolls and long lasting attacks he wins out

 

[Afro Smash]

How are you supposed to deal with link?

He spams projectiles faster then you can so you need to approach
His A attacks trump all your A attacks
I power shield the stuff all day but between his fast rolls and long lasting attacks he wins out

At the start of the match, and generally throughout the match find time to fully Charge your Charge Shot, usually at intervals between shielding Arrows and Boomerang. Do this because Charge Shot will destroy Arrows + Boomerang and go through to hit Link. This will not only easily rack up damage but also make him much more hesitant to spam Arrows and the like. Try to time it so you fire as he's in the animation of firing to avoid him having time to bring up his shield. After this they usually start to stand idle to absorb your projectiles with Hylian Shield, and you can use these opportunities to run in and dash grab, and get some down throw combos.

Do note though Bombs completely stop your charge shot no matter how charged.

In general you never really wanna come down on top of Link with Samus since his Up Air leaves his sword up for so long, and his Up Smash has 3 swings to hit you, so avoid that. As for the rolls, if you're up close as always try to punish with Down Tilt/Smash, although his Roll to Jab combo does happen very fast, so always be ready to shield grab if you're in close proximity.

Hope some of that helped.

Seconding call for tips vs Pikachu, the ones I've faced have been pretty bad but I can tell in the hands of a good player it would be very difficult.

 

[The Seventh One]

Can't get past the contestant stream of bombs tho.

 

[Hapajin]

Finally fought a decent Shiek. UGh it sucks so hard. I just have a lot of trouble getting stage control and I get combo'd hard in the air. Any tips?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Hey guys. Been putting in work in For Glory and I'm happy to say that I've done The Kahnate proud. I left earth salted and rivers black with the ink of books wherever I went in most cases. I'd like to see some discussion about a few different matchups though, see what everyone else was feeling about them.

Mario- I only encountered one Mario that give me trouble. He would stay back a certain distance and spam his fireball all whilst hopping, making a near impassable wall. I was unable to get through without shield dashing which was quickly punished by his grab game and I couldn't slowly charge my shot into pressuring a real approach from him. They Mario player didn't stick around past that one match for me to really play around and see what my options were if any.

Marth- Oh, boy. The range on his sword is just right against us. Too close to be inputting any ranged attacks and to far for use to be using any other tools except our F-tilt. Against most Marths/Lucinas I never really had a problem but the one I faced either really showed me the flaws in my character or myself as a player. It seems to me to be possibly the hardest matchup I've encountered online.

Megaman- The Blue Bomber himself. Some sentiments I've heard are that he's our easiest matchup but I encountered one who pressured far too hard with crash bombs, metal blades, and punishing my shield use to back up that claim.


Samus- My god, Pinbacker. I generally hate characters who have charge shots because I thrive off forcing players to approach in a nervous attempt to stop me. I don't have the patience to input super missile after suppermissile in a lame Dragonballesque projectile battle. On two occasions, after whopping people's other characters, they've picked Samus and two stocked me before leaving. What's up with this matchup? What are some of the more subtle Dos and Don'ts behind it?

Finally fought a decent Shiek. UGh it sucks so hard. I just have a lot of trouble getting stage control and I get combo'd hard in the air. Any tips?

It's true, once you're in the air, it's death combo time. I can't speak much for the character but macroscopically speaking, the best thing to do is just to be patient and press any momentum you can get. Most sheik players are used to perfect to a tee rundowns. They're at a certain percentage and one short hop nair sends them prone across the map and subjects them to a torrent of projectiles, they lose it. Against heavily momentum driven characters, momentum against them is felt that much stronger. Land your ftilts and punish poor approaches with grabs. I have this in my smash notebook regarding the Sheik matchup courtesy of pinkdeaf1.

"Sheki isn't too bad, but she is hard. We can take more hits than she can so our advantage lies there. We have the option to camp, and we have a combo off of d-thrown. If we get the grabs which we are supposed to get, then all is well. Otherwise, we can simply tilt and play keep away. We may get grabbed, but just move for the ledge and we will be fine. Dont jump from the ledge. Cover Sheiks landings with projectiles and fire charged shots liberally, but don't be obvious. Maintain projectile pressure on landings and recoveries. Do not overcommit to an up-b kill since you are likely to miss and get punished. Dont fear needles if you are trading projectiles. Punish needles with charged shot if you canread the throw. F tilt is good, so spam it if sheik is close. Use it to cover ground approaches if you don't want t o whiff a grab. Aerial sheik approaches can be covered with retreating aerials or pivot grabs.WhEn sheik is at ledge, if you cant comfortable stand your ground at ledge, just run and spam missiles. U tilt covers ledge hop and ledge jump. Reaction is what you have to do at ledge, or you can simply spam u tilt qnd hope they get hit... the match up shouldn't be too hard if you play patient and punish with charged shot. Charged shot is your main kill move here.The matchup isn't as skewed as 1-9 for samus. I believe samus can handle sheik much better than the rest of the cast."
-pinkdeaf1

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I'm confused. What stops Sheik from standing at the other end of the stage and spamming needles?

 

[Afro Smash]

missile pressure, u also outrange needles

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Aren't needles faster than missiles and clash with them?

 

[IsmaR]

Needles go under, IIRC. Either way you could short hop homing missiles, as well as shoot charge shots (assuming the standing at the end of the stage deal goes both ways). Sheik wins by getting our face, not trying to out-spam Spamus.

 

[Beard Hawk]

Sheik's needles are a nightmare. They are one of the quickest projectiles in the game and are perfect for ruining your charge up beam. The other fast projectile, Fox' laser, is not nearly as annoying as it doesn't make you flinch, so you can just eat a few lasers while charging up your beam.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I've played about a week now and I'm having no particular problems with any character in for glory. Samus is quite a good mix right now of close-in, spacing and kill power. Really, it's quite even, against the entire cast, certainly a HELL of a lot more even than in Brawl! There's always a move in the arsenal that DOES tend to work well and then add in the moves that work less well to compliment it. Shifting up the play-style is critical.
You simply cannot play the "same" with this big of a cast, your style HAS to change, and change radically, not in small ways or you lose.

Tip for link and other multi-hits: so long as you don't land dead-on-top and have some damage on you there is often a DI spot in that you can get to between hits and n-air kick them in in the face. Link up-smash, falcon jab, mac and several others. With rage that nair kick to the face can really turn the tables fast, even kill. Rage really helps Samus, because she's quite heavy and makes it into the high percents.

Link's projectiles move the exact same speed as the missiles. Stand there and shoot missiles moving just a bit - DON'T JUMP, no airdodge into z-air or any other tricks. Sounds stupid, it's like a SF2 hadouken battle. The arrows will droop if you get at the right range, they will eventually miss breaking against each other and he will lose the hadouken battle. He is forced to approach. It's very boring though, I don't enjoy fighting link for this reason alone, it feels wrong in smash. They could have made fewer missiles in the game have the EXACT same speed.

For pika walk and space your f-tilt. Use your shield and walk some more (don't dash!). Abuse landing lag. He has TERRIBLE landing lag. Walking around kicking him works surprisingly well. Literally. Mix it up with grabs. Save the f-smash.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I've played about a week now and I'm having no particular problems with any character in for glory. Samus is quite a good mix right now of close-in, spacing and kill power. Really, it's quite even, against the entire cast, certainly a HELL of a lot more even than in Brawl! There's always a move in the arsenal that DOES tend to work well and then add in the moves that work less well to compliment it. Shifting up the play-style is critical.
You simply cannot play the "same" with this big of a cast, your style HAS to change, and change radically, not in small ways or you lose.

Tip for link and other multi-hits: so long as you don't land dead-on-top and have some damage on you there is often a DI spot in that you can get to between hits and n-air kick them in in the face. Link up-smash, falcon jab, mac and several others. With rage that nair kick to the face can really turn the tables fast, even kill. Rage really helps Samus, because she's quite heavy and makes it into the high percents.

Link's projectiles move the exact same speed as the missiles. Stand there and shoot missiles moving just a bit - DON'T JUMP, no airdodge into z-air or any other tricks. Sounds stupid, it's like a SF2 hadouken battle. The arrows will droop if you get at the right range, they will eventually miss breaking against each other and he will lose the hadouken battle. He is forced to approach. It's very boring though, I don't enjoy fighting link for this reason alone, it feels wrong in smash. They could have made fewer missiles in the game have the EXACT same speed.

For pika walk and space your f-tilt. Use your shield and walk some more (don't dash!). Abuse landing lag. He has TERRIBLE landing lag. Walking around kicking him works surprisingly well. Literally. Mix it up with grabs. Save the f-smash.

Those short hopped nairs and bairs wreak havoc upon the taller members of the cast and are definitely a huge asset. At 30% percent short hopped nair can combo into down tilt if you in put the fast fall quickly enough.


On the topic of characters with teleport recoveries, I found out their hurtboxes appear before their hitboxes so if we time it right we can mess them up with Uair extremely consistently now that Uair's hit box consists of Samus' entire body. Just sharimg for those who may not have known.

Useful factoid for use against characters whose spawnable items won't spawn if we're holding them. We can zair without dropping the item by airdodging and then cancelling the airdodge with a zair.

This will piss the **** out of many a Pacman mains (Pacmen?) Since we can keep them at bay with ftilrs, fsmashes and even zairs along with our missiles and charge shots while they desperately try to get their fruit back.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

If we do the air dodge zair trick we get a bunch of lag though. Might still be good for a mixup?

 

[Afro Smash]

So what would people say are Samus' worst match ups?

I'll list mine

Captain Falcon - Dash grab can easily punish Samus laggier moves, rack up percentage from down throw combos easily, good kill moves, risky battling off stage.

Falco - Reflector.

Little Mac - Can close space so quickly it makes samus projectilesmuch less valuable, roll very difficult to punish, counter can stop aerial combos. Attacks come out incredibly fast making it difficult to Grab him.

Pikachu - Size makes u have to angle fsmash and ftilt, difficult to land aerials. Neutral B spam makes missiles p much useless.

Rosalina - Luma can absorb Missiles and Charge Shot, or Rosalina can down B, and she isn't useles w/o Luma. Moreso just the character in general than bad specifically for Samus I'd say, although I do especially hate her roll and aerials.

Villager - Pocket. Lloid and Fair spam.

Yoshi - Exteremely powerful aerials and priority, can stall in the air with up b to not only punish the lagginess of missiles, but also avoid them + charge shot.

Again these are just the worst for me, although I do believe some of them are just bad for samus in general

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

So what would people say are Samus' worst match ups?

I'll list mine

Captain Falcon - Dash grab can easily punish Samus laggier moves, rack up percentage from down throw combos easily, good kill moves, risky battling off stage.

Falco - Reflector.

Little Mac - Can close space so quickly it makes samus projectilesmuch less valuable, roll very difficult to punish, counter can stop aerial combos. Attacks come out incredibly fast making it difficult to Grab him.

Pikachu - Size makes u have to angle fsmash and ftilt, difficult to land aerials. Neutral B spam makes missiles p much useless.

Rosalina - Luma can absorb Missiles and Charge Shot, or Rosalina can down B, and she isn't useles w/o Luma. Moreso just the character in general than bad specifically for Samus I'd say, although I do especially hate her roll and aerials.

Villager - Pocket. Lloid and Fair spam.

Yoshi - Exteremely powerful aerials and priority, can stall in the air with up b to not only punish the lagginess of missiles, but also avoid them + charge shot.

Again these are just the worst for me, although I do believe some of them are just bad for samus in general

Falcon matchup is in our favor and is actually one of my easier matchups. The trick is to not commit to much when the momentum is in his favor. Ftilts, pivot tilts, pitot grabs are your most important tools. Our dash beats his out. Once the percentage is stacked up on him and the space between is greater we should start commiting to projectiles. Forcing aerial approaches which we can punish is important as with against any other character. Being a tall character, he's food for our short hopped aerials and once you learn his side and down baiting those out and punishing with a RARed back air can kill so early and make them feel inadequate. His recoverycan be consistently gimped with enough practice. We can input a nair right before he latches on to us by getting up close before the hitboxes appear. Samus will look like she had been released by a grab while falcon gets sent flying.

 

[FlAlex]

I found this in the Megaman forum so thought I'd share it here:

Really? Cuz I would say MM is Samus' anathema. The only thing Samus has over MM is her super missile goes through and destroys crash bombs(CB) and trades with Metal Blades(MB). Samus can't keep an offensive on MM because of lemons. She has no real answer for them other than a charged shot but the MM would have to be silly to NOT stop the Samus form charging in the first place. So MM forces Samus to play offensively which is where Lemons wall you. In all the battles with a MM main the battle kept taking place on the ledges where he corned me with lemons while I was trying to play defensive. I couldn't get past them. Samus jumps slowly and falls even slower making all aerial attacks against grounded lemons useless. I did notice that my opponent almost always jumped immediately after the last pellet but this was if I was getting too close to him (which I did by trying to get past lemons). if I was too far way for a tilt he would continue the lemon wall while i either tried to jump them, roll them (Samus' roll is so slow it left me vulnerable after the last pellet), shield them (only good for so long), or walk into them.

Now that I think about it, besides fishing for up-tilt kills, mixup d-tilts, Dairs on the ledge, and some Fsmashs too, Lemons were really the only things he used. How do I get past them with Samus? I main others for this match up but I would like to know Samus' answer to them. A well spaced jab from MM is hard to answer (or it was for me).

Thanks in advance!

 

[IsmaR]

Retreating Z-air, short hop missiles and punishing the lag after the 3rd pellet (grab if you're close enough, Dash Attack/Charge Shot otherwise).

You don't have to play offensively to beat out Mega Man. However they're not going to give you time to breathe/charge or fire your own projectiles. Due to Samus' tall stature, it is difficult to avoid pellets. I often find myself staying in the air/maneuvering with Morph Ball Bombs so as to keep a smaller hurtbox (bouncing with them backwards or sideways help to alleviate the threat of pellets or Torando/U-tilt). Typically I try to maintain distance so as to charge neutral B (even not fully charged, it'll beat out all of his projectiles), and shield as soon as they approach so as to preserve its potency. Aside from that I try to space out F-tilts, SH N-air and Z-air.

 

[FlAlex]

Retreating Z-air, short hop missiles and punishing the lag after the 3rd pellet (grab if you're close enough, Dash Attack/Charge Shot otherwise).

You don't have to play offensively to beat out Mega Man. However they're not going to give you time to breathe/charge or fire your own projectiles. Due to Samus' tall stature, it is difficult to avoid pellets. I often find myself staying in the air/maneuvering with Morph Ball Bombs so as to keep a smaller hurtbox (bouncing with them backwards or sideways help to alleviate the threat of pellets or Torando/U-tilt). Typically I try to maintain distance so as to charge neutral B (even not fully charged, it'll beat out all of his projectiles), and shield as soon as they approach so as to preserve its potency. Aside from that I try to space out F-tilts, SH N-air and Z-air.

This MM wouldn't let me keep the distance, so no charge shot. When I did finally get one I became so hasty to use it because of how annoying the lemon wall was becoming. He just kept cornering me with lemons. I try to roll past them but it just put me in a bad position. I try to spot-dodge but it didn't last long enough. I tried to SH over them but I kept getting snagged by the lemons. I didn't try Zair because it's so hard to land on small characters like MM. Does it eat through all the pellets or is it more of a get off me tool? I'll try the SH super missiles next time but I thought the third lemon trades with it so I never tried it.

I did try to punish the lag after the last pellet but my opponent kept spacing so well that F-tilts wouldn't reach and I already stated that aerial attempts were stopped because Samus' legs got caught by the lemons.

Could I actually get some footage of how you play Samus, please? My opponent was interested in fighting a good Samus because he has difficulty finding them. I don't think I did Samus justice but I think you might be what he's looking for! If you want I can direct you to him.

thanks for the input! I'll try them out later!

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Retreating Z-air, short hop missiles and punishing the lag after the 3rd pellet (grab if you're close enough, Dash Attack/Charge Shot otherwise).

You don't have to play offensively to beat out Mega Man. However they're not going to give you time to breathe/charge or fire your own projectiles. Due to Samus' tall stature, it is difficult to avoid pellets. I often find myself staying in the air/maneuvering with Morph Ball Bombs so as to keep a smaller hurtbox (bouncing with them backwards or sideways help to alleviate the threat of pellets or Torando/U-tilt). Typically I try to maintain distance so as to charge neutral B (even not fully charged, it'll beat out all of his projectiles), and shield as soon as they approach so as to preserve its potency. Aside from that I try to space out F-tilts, SH N-air and Z-air.

When are the best moments besides obvious punishes to use SH Nairs? After third pellet?

On to Falco, what's up with that matchup? I feel that it's extremely hard to punish him since the ending lag on a lot of his moves are just too small a window to get stuff done on him.