Matchup Discussion

[Beard Hawk]

I think the Mega Man matchup goes both ways, it can be frustrating for both players. It's not a good game to watch generally, but if you want to win, maybe just hog the ledge and chip away at MM with missiles, air-grapple, and when he gets close kick him back. If winning is all that matters, Samus always has a way to drag the fight on and make it more painfully boring for her foe. If you don't want to be boring then you're going to have to eat a few lemons to get close enough to actually fight.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I've never really had the pleasure of playing a good Link until last night. Usually the Links I encountered were all very lame, constantly using their forward smash and such. Last night though I met one who was doing so much it ws crazy. Short hopped aerials amd zairs and bombs and boomerangs and arrows flying eveywhere. It was a really fun dynamic and the MU changes drastically depending on whether you have a full charge shot or not. I'm going to copy paste some of my notes on the MU.


Link

• A good link will try to harass the **** out of you with arrows and his boomerang at a medium range. He'll toss his boomerang constantly to cover super missiles, uncharged CS, and approaches. It's important to spot dodge the arrows because you need all the shield you can get for approaching as a mixup, protecting yourself from bombs and arrows and the ocassional dash attack.
• Once you complete your charge shot they'll stop commiting to their projectiles and will go airborne or approach heavy on the shield. Stay mobile as hell, shield dashing and spot dodge dashing to make him all the more liable to **** up.
• Keep an eye open for his double jump and punish his landings.
• In the neutral it's important to not stay still for too long. If you whiff am f tilt get out of there, don't try another.
• You have the upper hand in mobility and allthough they can pressure you like no other character, if you keep your cool amd fill up your CS you can take control of the situation pretty easily.
• As soon as you get your CS, it's important to cook it as its presence decides the flow of battle. Don't be too superfluous with it, hold on to it. You play Samus, be patient.
• Once your CS is full they can't commit to much and have to approach through your missiles and you're punishing his approaches.
• Having a CS a ****'s hair a way from being full can catch your opponent off guard as they'll be keeping an eye open for the glow to adjust their tactics. With an almost full charge shot you can catch them firing projectiles. This is great for us because once they stop relying on the visual queues they'll just approach even when they in reality don't need to yet.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I do not know the wario matchup. Last night I faced literally my 1st wario ever in a for-glory. I knew from fooling around, wario had been nerfed, and pretty hard from Brawl. This guy's wario however, was a cut above, really, really good. This was a bad matchup in Brawl, somehow even with the nerfs and buffs I feel this is still quite bad. I wish he stuck around for more than 1 game for me to figure out the details of the matchup but wario mains are so rare...

 

[FlAlex]

I do not know the wario matchup. Last night I faced literally my 1st wario ever in a for-glory. I knew from fooling around, wario had been nerfed, and pretty hard from Brawl. This guy's wario however, was a cut above, really, really good. This was a bad matchup in Brawl, somehow even with the nerfs and buffs I feel this is still quite bad. I wish he stuck around for more than 1 game for me to figure out the details of the matchup but wario mains are so rare...

What was it that you had troubles with?

From my experience, if remembered correctly, Wario's bike was the main problem. CS and missiles were eaten by that thing. I had to resort to shielding then grabbing them after passing or to take a risk and try an aerial attack.

I can't remember what else I had trouble with besides killing because of Wectoring, but that was patched out so we don't have to worry about that any more.

Oh, and Wario's dair is a pain. Best to just keep your distance from an airborne Wario with great spacing, rolling, or Zairing.

Another thing: his bite. Hate dealing with that. Because of that, no dash attack or aerial approaches. Normally this wouldn't be the most effective option for Samus but Wario's bike put's our projectiles to waste at long distances. I think I tried dash grabbing, baiting a shield>run behind them>Pivot grab, Pivot tilting, tilting, and mid-ranged projectiles (though those are the most risky to use because of bike).


On a completely different subject-
Moderator, could a new thread be stickied to the top of the list, one that would act as an archive of all useful info for Samus. The Marth forum has done something similar to this and I think it would speed up the process of finding info without having to hunt for them through various threads.
This is the one I was a talking about:
http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-competitive-resource-thread.382874/

 

[Shinuto]

As a Wii Fit Trainer main how do I deal with Samus, especially Spammers, I try using my own projectiles but they dont work and I just...cant seem to punish her roll.

 

[FlAlex]

As a Wii Fit Trainer main how do I deal with Samus, especially Spammers, I try using my own projectiles but they dont work and I just...cant seem to punish her roll.

Your soccerballs won't help you. At all. They'll recoshe off of all her projectiles. Only use it for edge guarding. speaking of which, her up-special is invincible so don't get in it's way unless you wanna risk being stage spiked.

Her missiles are easy to take car of...in writing. You can easily roll past them but will easily be read (not that it should be too big of a problem with Samus though. All of her projectiles have some decently long ending lag). My personal favorite way to get rid of them is to hit the missiles with any melee move. It takes great timing, but doing so will leave you unscathed by the now destroyed missile. It also shows how capable you are and might scare your opponent.

I suggest charging your sun-salutation to the max and holding on to it as bait for the Charge shot. Do NOT use the sun-Salutation to defend against the Charge shot. Having your SunS fully charged will scare the Samus, making them succeptable to mind-games. Use this move in tangent with deep-breathing but only for the kill. Edge guarding against samus is really difficult so you'll have to smash them into the blast-zone.

Things you have the advantage in:
1. Her jab. Your jab is great for killing and is quick and rather safe at the beginning. The big thing however is that Samus's jab1 is UNSAFE on hit. If you are still on the ground when you get hit by the first jab and are close enough for your own jab, SPAM A. It will more than likely beat her second jab. Meaning a free pitfall effect for you!

2. Great speed and less commitment. When you finally get in close, go all out. If they have a tendency to roll away, keep calm and try to read where with whatever move will hit but is safe on whiff (incase you mis-predicted their direction). If you choose right then keep up the pressure. Spammers are unlikely to be great at using Samus effectively up close. If you choose the wrong direction, then would be a good time to use SunS as a means of punishing. Don't worry about charging it. You can easily charge the SunS to full while the spammer charges their own CS or spams missiles on the other side of the stage safely.

Another thing about your speed and air mobility. Bait and bait some more. most of Samus's moves are punishable if whiffed. Especially the tether.

About her roll. I don't know how fast WFT's walk is but Marth is great at punishing rolls after walking. Walk towards them to bait the roll, then after deciding where they will be, STRIKE HARD. If you don't feel comfortable punishing with melee moves, use SunS to do so. Luckily for you, Samus's roll is especially slow though it travels farther than most. Just bait a roll and punish. Most Spammers will always roll towards the opposite side of the stage after you corner them.

One last thing about Samus:
She outranges most of your moves. A good samus will use her tilts and Zair effectively. But you're not going against good Samus', are you?

In summary, don't use the soccer balls. Keep SunS fully charged for punishing rolls and whiffs and killing. Do not use to defend against CS. Use your great speed for that. Also, try to use it for mind-games. Bait grabs if they are grab hungry. Missiles are easily defeated with melee moves and rolling (I believe WFT's nair covers a lot of space so use that if I'm not mistaken). Expect and predict rolls. Punish them heavily with combos and keeping the pressure with melee moves. Samus is easily combo-able and all spammers deserve to die! Do not Edge guard samus as WFT. Use Deep-breathing to kill.

Notice that this is specifically meant for Samus spammers, not good players.

Best of luck and have a good night! hope this helped!
(if you would like to practice against a samus I am available soon on the 3ds. No wiiu for now)

If all else fails, choose a secondary that checks Samus spammers. (ideally: Link, Sonic, Link, diddy, Link, Link, Link, Capt. Falcon Link, MegaMan, Fox, Falco, Link, Toon Link, Bowser Jr, sheik. All of these characters have a spammable move that deals with spammers or are just too fast for spammers to handle. Link doesn't do any of these. He has his shield and bombs to cover rolls, TEH BAIN OF ALL TEH SP@MMARS!!)

 

[IsmaR]

WFT's Side B is better used to "stall" in the air. I use it to avoid missiles/Charge Shots (not so much homing Missiles/Z-air, though).

Additionally I use her crouching animation to avoid a lot of attacks. Missiles go right over, as do not-fully-Charged Shots and Z-air.

The upside for WFT is that Samus can't really do much against getting juggled. I can usually chain a good amount of U-airs (at lower %) and almost always get all hits of N-air. Additionally Samus can get screwed over royally by her larger/awkward frame, as more often than not, WFT's Smashes will just barely catch her by the tip of her toes. Combined with Deep Breathing, it gets especially scary.

I'd mostly stick with using tilts and keeping Sun Salutation ready, as well as being ready to shield/grab everything. As stated above, if Samus ever uses her jab, make them instantly regret it. I think pivot grabs and F-tilt are both great for punishing Samus' laggy roll, as well.

 

[shinhed-echi]

The only matchup that is an absolute PAIN for me is

Any other matchup is adaptable. But I just can't seem to get ZSS out of my hair.
If I go on the offense, she dances circles around me with paralyzers, grabs, or dash/smash attacks that land before mine.
If I go defense, I get grabbed+aired all over the place. Let's say I dodge her grab, there's not much I can do to keep her off her feet. No spectacular combo I can perform that she can't react out from on the first hit.

Charging a neutral B is luxury I can't seem to have. Missiles get cancelled by uncharged paralyzers. (Even super missiles).
Bombs are a joke, they leave me vulnerable, and ZSS is already in my grill before it even detonates.
Zair WAS my go to place in Brawl, but it's harder to land on this game.

So.... I really need help. As it stands for me, it looks like a 20:80 ratio matchup.
Samus is my jack of all trades character. I can stand my own against ANY character. But my achiles' heel (lol) is

 

[meleebrawler]

So.... I really need help. As it stands for me, it looks like a 20:80 ratio matchup.

Please refrain from using ratios to describe personal difficulty
with a matchup.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@FIAlex It's the whole package, from the air-based command grab to the stupid bike to simply better physical priority. I need to play an expert wario more to figure the matchup out in better detail. I was also really tired... but well, we know that excuse.

@ shinhed-echi I actually quite enjoy playing against zero suit. Backwards short-hop your plain-missile to go over the paralyzer and charge shot. I always eventually force them to take to the air and then blast them when they land. Her flip-kick is very predictable and comes with that extremely obvious huge trailing animation and quite a bit of lag if it misses. I find half-charged charge shots work really well, and she's so light they often can kill.

 

[shinhed-echi]

@FIAlex It's the whole package, from the air-based command grab to the stupid bike to simply better physical priority. I need to play an expert wario more to figure the matchup out in better detail. I was also really tired... but well, we know that excuse.

@ shinhed-echi I actually quite enjoy playing against zero suit. Backwards short-hop your plain-missile to go over the paralyzer and charge shot. I always eventually force them to take to the air and then blast them when they land. Her flip-kick is very predictable and comes with that extremely obvious huge trailing animation and quite a bit of lag if it misses. I find half-charged charge shots work really well, and she's so light they often can kill.

Thanks! I'll try that out.

BTW, I too happened to bump into a really good Wario user. (... or was he?)
He cancelled out all of my options with his bike. I couldn't do a single thing about it. :/ They tell me Wario's bike has a fatal flaw, but I still don't see it. XD At least he doesn't have his super armor Fsmash from Brawl.

 

[J0Y]

The only matchup that is an absolute PAIN for me is

Any other matchup is adaptable. But I just can't seem to get ZSS out of my hair.
If I go on the offense, she dances circles around me with paralyzers, grabs, or dash/smash attacks that land before mine.
If I go defense, I get grabbed+aired all over the place. Let's say I dodge her grab, there's not much I can do to keep her off her feet. No spectacular combo I can perform that she can't react out from on the first hit.

Charging a neutral B is luxury I can't seem to have. Missiles get cancelled by uncharged paralyzers. (Even super missiles).
Bombs are a joke, they leave me vulnerable, and ZSS is already in my grill before it even detonates.
Zair WAS my go to place in Brawl, but it's harder to land on this game.

So.... I really need help. As it stands for me, it looks like a 20:80 ratio matchup.
Samus is my jack of all trades character. I can stand my own against ANY character. But my achiles' heel (lol) is

hey im a samus main too and ZSS can kill Samus with her up B at like 100 from para.its ridiculous.i also fought a dedede today and he just kept dthrow into upper and those lock on samus ....samus doesnt have good anti air game.when she is getting air comboed or pressured with speed there is not time for missles(that end up getting canceled) let alone charge shot that seems to only land when its shot more randomly against skilled playeres

WFT's Side B is better used to "stall" in the air. I use it to avoid missiles/Charge Shots (not so much homing Missiles/Z-air, though).

Additionally I use her crouching animation to avoid a lot of attacks. Missiles go right over, as do not-fully-Charged Shots and Z-air.

The upside for WFT is that Samus can't really do much against getting juggled. I can usually chain a good amount of U-airs (at lower %) and almost always get all hits of N-air. Additionally Samus can get screwed over royally by her larger/awkward frame, as more often than not, WFT's Smashes will just barely catch her by the tip of her toes. Combined with Deep Breathing, it gets especially scary.

I'd mostly stick with using tilts and keeping Sun Salutation ready, as well as being ready to shield/grab everything. As stated above, if Samus ever uses her jab, make them instantly regret it. I think pivot grabs and F-tilt are both great for punishing Samus' laggy roll, as well.

Samus gets juggled badly in S4 no where near as bad as brawl.she needs to be buffed

 

[DungeonMaster]

Getting back to the stage right now is the single most important skill for Samus. In the air you really you need to know the matchup in GREAT detail because just throwing out an aerial is almost a guarantee you're going to be sent sailing again. Air-to-below you, essentially forget about it beyond mix-up.
You drop bombs, air-dodge and position to land safely. Up-air FAST FALL. Critical.

As for people jumping in at you - at the 45 to 70 degree angle approach - you must learn to up-B out of shield. Everything that goes up, must eventually land. When then land, they lag. Shield, up-B.
You are also not going to simply stand there and launch missiles and hope that works. That's where you take to the air, air-dodge jump through them and launch a missile backwards. Or jump back and launch a missile/CS Again, they WILL land.
My air-game right now is essentially mix-up, z-air, and (some) follow up against launched opponents and gimping. More often than not, if I launch my opponent, I charge my shot and position rather than pursue in the air. The more I play the more I find Brawl instincts are totally wrong. I basically bounty hunt landing/rolling lag now. I'll post a few vids at some point, I'm no expert but I am winning quite consistently on for-glory.

 

[Afro Smash]

Is there anyway to get out of pk fire from ness? seems like the only way is to shield in which case thats a free grab, not something u wanna give up when he has a killing backthrow and down throw follow ups.

And it stops Charge Shot ;-;

 

[FlAlex]

Is there anyway to get out of pk fire from ness? seems like the only way is to shield in which case thats a free grab, not something u wanna give up when he has a killing backthrow and down throw follow ups.

And it stops Charge Shot ;-;

slowly move away from the source and try to roll out as soon as possible. Usually roll towards ness since most will try to either grab you or predict a roll out and away from with his dash attack.

I would get in the habit of spot-dodging PKFires. Makes punishing much easier.

Can you trade with a PK fire with down tilt and D-Smash? I don't know why no one ever tries this. It is My prefered method for dealing with all projectiles.

Also, why use CS at all against Ness except when punishing REALLY laggy moves? The fact that his FSmash and Down special deals with CS should make you keep it for mind-games. I would charge CS and then use it for baiting the down special and punishable FSmash.

Ness's are a huge problem for Samus. Samus' floaty-ness and Ness' combo abilities make for a scary opponent, so keep your distance and never go for a bait. Never select a move that is punishable on whiff against Ness. This isn't too bad for Samus as her missiles don't travel far enough to worry about FSmash at a distance and are not absorbed by Dspecial and missiles pressure Ness to come with punishable moves.

I don't have too much experience with this MU but I theorize that UpTilt, Ftilt, USmash, Zair, and Bair and nair are your greatest answers to ness (since the best will be coming from the air). Most in my experience however are only used to dash attack approaches, dash grabs, roll approaches, and aerial and spaced pk fires. Pretty punishable for Samus. Just predict where they will roll with a tilt or Dsmash, grab before dash attacks and dash grabs, and beat all aerials with your tilts and USmash.

One last thing, when at Back throw kill-percentages. Keep away from whatever blast zone is closest and either force Ness to get in using your missiles or beat Ness out with your range.


Sorry that most of this doesn't even address your original question. I ramble to try to make it seem as if I know the MU.
Hope this helps! Best of luck!

 

[Afro Smash]

Spot dodging and rolling towards him will definitely help, especially the latter, so thanks for that. As for Charge Shot i find im quite good at baiting people in to it, even characters with reflectors, and then they throw it out too much and get punished easily (bar falco hnnng).

And yeah i stopped it a few times with d tilt

I dont have a big problem with the match up most of the time, but im sure your rambling will help some people ^_^

 

[FlAlex]

I dont have a big problem with the match up most of the time, but im sure your rambling will help some people ^_^

Thanks, man!

 

[IsmaR]

Is there anyway to get out of pk fire from ness? seems like the only way is to shield in which case thats a free grab, not something u wanna give up when he has a killing backthrow and down throw follow ups.

And it stops Charge Shot ;-;

DI up. It sounds stupid, but it's saved my life numerous times tonight (had a loooooooooooooong session with a Ness player).

As for actually avoiding it, spotdodging is better than shielding, while short hop (or Morph Bomb jumping) usually work best.

Can you trade with a PK fire with down tilt and D-Smash? I don't know why no one ever tries this. It is My prefered method for dealing with all projectiles.

You can trade with the following:

F-Smash (if sweetspot, you won't take residual damage past the interruption), F-tilt (angled down), end of U-tilt, D-tilt (if they hit the cannon, not you yourself), and the apex of D-smash (haven't test if it works better with the back hit).

 

[FlAlex]

while short hop (or Morph Bomb jumping) usually work best.

Morph ball being USEFULL? Hell froze over. Is it the best method though? Won't the end lag be too long? And I don't know if i would choose short-hop. Samus is far too floaty to punish PKFire with a SH besides with DAIR but that has so much landing lag and Ness is so hard to hit.

 

[IsmaR]

No one said anything about punishing to begin with. Resetting your position/falling back/retreating to neutral position was usually the best thing to do. Used the time for charging projectiles (in an actual match, PSI Magnet/F-Smash are almost never going to be used).

 

[FlAlex]

No one said anything about punishing to begin with. Resetting your position/falling back/retreating to neutral position was usually the best thing to do. Used the time for charging projectiles (in an actual match, PSI Magnet/F-Smash are almost never going to be used).

Meh. I would rather punish if I felt comfortable enough. I don't see why I wouldn't take the free dash attack.

 

[Tasokun]

Would anyone be willing to post a video of them winning the Samus vs Rosalina matchup? I'd like to know what to do against her specifically, nothing's working. Her dodges, dash, smashes, range, and power are insane. She never takes any hits either because of that cursed Luma. I've tried mostly close ranged stuff so far, but it's 2v1, and Samus's speed isn't in her favor. Basically the opponent continuously spot dodges while using Luma as an annoying wasp.

Also, getting down from the air, is two times worse against Rosalina, not just because she's literally two characters that can take up a lot of space on the floor, but because her dash attack is insane, in every way. Usually I bomb jump right over the heads of those who are predictably dashing towards me, but Rosalina's taller than Lady Liberty. When her Luma finally dies, the opponent just starts spamming dodges/spotdodges and grabbing me whenever I even attempt to make a move, the timer quickly runs out in those instances; and a new star is born. ]:

And I know this has been answered many times before, but, again, nothing's working. I'm hoping a video would be able to help even further with figuring out this matchup.

 

[Afro Smash]

Here's a game I had yesterday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RGksm_vANE

Not exactly the best Rosalina (doesnt call luma back nearly enough), nor am I the best samus, but hopefully it can help a bit.

A few things to note are

-Rosalinas recovery isnt easy to sweetspot the ledge with, so spamming up tilt when theyre off stage works quite often
-Killing luma is p easy with missile spam, and if they get overzealous with down b you can dash grab/predict roll etc

I agree though, I despise her dash attack and characters that disappear when doing rolls and spot dodges

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Morph ball being USEFULL? Hell froze over. Is it the best method though? Won't the end lag be too long? And I don't know if i would choose short-hop. Samus is far too floaty to punish PKFire with a SH besides with DAIR but that has so much landing lag and Ness is so hard to hit.

You could short hop around and pressure by simply being close. Skittish ness players tend to roll a lot or pk fire a a lot. If you are already short hopping and close enough, when they flub a pk fire, then you can punish with a nair, or simply land to whatever.

Always being mobile and never committing too hard makes you a difficult target. Are you comfortable with Samus's movement? Pk fire isn't the best projectile when you understand the do's-and-don'ts about it.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Rosalina is a tricky matchup. A Rosalina who know what they're doing won't let you purt the hurt on Luma.

When you grab her it's important to throw her immediately as Luma can smack you and it's always important to throw her forwards as Rosalina can hit you with a recalled Luma before you can even finish the throw cooldown.

When Rosalina is on the ledge you can sneak a bair on Luma as Luma doesn't recieve invulnerability. Now that I think about it, a Rosalina who reads a move on Luma at the ledge might try to punish with a ledge drop aerial and we might be able to gimp this.

She can easily gimp you with her dair early into the game so watch out for that.

 

[FlAlex]

Are you comfortable with Samus's movement? Pk fire isn't the best projectile when you understand the do's-and-don'ts about it.

Hahahaha! Am I comfortable with Samus' movement at all, Hahahaha -NO!

I have yet to find one character in the entire roster that feels just right, except for my secondaries: Pit, Marth, and Ike. Samus is weird to control. Her run is sub-par to her walk IMO because her walk is fast and her run makes it seem like she's dragging along. I wouldn't mind her jump that bad if she was more controllable like Jiggly.

Lately, I've thought about using Samus more like jiggly. Has anybody tried this out? She has multiple great aerial attacks and her floatiness allows for some pretty cool stuff. You can SH Dair grounded opponents (assuming they aren't small/crouching) and not receive the landing lag. You can also SH>dodge and if you time it right, you can land just in time to attack. I'll be trying this out some more on FG.

What are the do's and don'ts of pkfire? I know you aren't supposed to use it when your opponent is above you but that's it. What else is there?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

PK Fire is not safe against fast characters or characters that are close to Ness. If you read PK Fire (possibly even by reaction if you're close enough) you can dash in, shield it and then dash attack.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

PK Fire is not safe against fast characters or characters that are close to Ness. If you read PK Fire (possibly even by reaction if you're close enough) you can dash in, shield it and then dash attack.

Also you can dash to spot dodge too. Which one to use is situational.

 

[FlAlex]

Also you can dash to spot dodge too. Which one to use is situational.

thank you both!

 

[Afro Smash]

Ok after facing a a really good little mac, im p much certain its impossible to beat him without gimping. He's quite simply is too fast for Samus to be able to react to what he'll do and appropriately punish outside of shielding and grabbing him from his laggier attacks, however a whiffed grab is ridiculously easy for him to punish. Landing on the stage is difficult since he covers ground so fast he can easily catch you if you bomb to change direction, and obviously landing on top of him is never an option cuz super armour up smashes will rock your world.

So basically I was forced to ledge camp all game, jumping up, throwing out zairs/fairs then regrabbing edge, and if he approached to try and take advantage of no invincibility then wall jump to bair to avoid dsmash. or wait on the edge for him to approach then throw him off stage and attempt to gimp. Neither of these were reliable or fun, so is there any way to combat him on stage, any secret tips or anything? If not I think ill just end up picking secondaries if i know im going to be facing him.

 

[FlAlex]

Ok after facing a a really good little mac, im p much certain its impossible to beat him without gimping. He's quite simply is too fast for Samus to be able to react to what he'll do and appropriately punish outside of shielding and grabbing him from his laggier attacks, however a whiffed grab is ridiculously easy for him to punish. Landing on the stage is difficult since he covers ground so fast he can easily catch you if you bomb to change direction, and obviously landing on top of him is never an option cuz super armour up smashes will rock your world.

So basically I was forced to ledge camp all game, jumping up, throwing out zairs/fairs then regrabbing edge, and if he approached to try and take advantage of no invincibility then wall jump to bair to avoid dsmash. or wait on the edge for him to approach then throw him off stage and attempt to gimp. Neither of these were reliable or fun, so is there any way to combat him on stage, any secret tips or anything? If not I think ill just end up picking secondaries if i know im going to be facing him.

I thought everyone's answer to Lil mac was gimping? It's not hard (well, okay, for every OTHER character).

Perhaps a smart use of bombs as a deterant and more Ftitling? I don't think he can out reach our F-tilt except with FSmash.
Also, use pivots more often for mind games. Try charging the CS and using the available defensive options so you can still charge your biggest weapon and keep him away.

There is something I would like you to try. I've noticed that Samus can SH>Air dodge and reach the ground WITHOUT landing lag. I wanna see if that could help. You can do this with DAIR as well.

Honestly, I would use a secondary for Lil mac. Samus just isn't cut out against blunt force.

Best of luck.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Ok after facing a a really good little mac, im p much certain its impossible to beat him without gimping. He's quite simply is too fast for Samus to be able to react to what he'll do and appropriately punish outside of shielding and grabbing him from his laggier attacks, however a whiffed grab is ridiculously easy for him to punish. Landing on the stage is difficult since he covers ground so fast he can easily catch you if you bomb to change direction, and obviously landing on top of him is never an option cuz super armour up smashes will rock your world.

So basically I was forced to ledge camp all game, jumping up, throwing out zairs/fairs then regrabbing edge, and if he approached to try and take advantage of no invincibility then wall jump to bair to avoid dsmash. or wait on the edge for him to approach then throw him off stage and attempt to gimp. Neither of these were reliable or fun, so is there any way to combat him on stage, any secret tips or anything? If not I think ill just end up picking secondaries if i know im going to be facing him.

I once met a Mac I had to resort to ledge camping to beat as well so I understand completely what you're saying. I personally don't feel it's impossible to take him on in neutral since it's the same grab/ftilt dynamic against other characters just on a way, WAY faster pace. He can play footsies and bait out your grab so easily so it's something to watch out for. Luckily though, he can't really approach aerially so the dynamic is a little simplified since we don't have to use fairs as well.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Ok after facing a a really good little mac, im p much certain its impossible to beat him without gimping. He's quite simply is too fast for Samus to be able to react to what he'll do and appropriately punish outside of shielding and grabbing him from his laggier attacks, however a whiffed grab is ridiculously easy for him to punish. Landing on the stage is difficult since he covers ground so fast he can easily catch you if you bomb to change direction, and obviously landing on top of him is never an option cuz super armour up smashes will rock your world.

So basically I was forced to ledge camp all game, jumping up, throwing out zairs/fairs then regrabbing edge, and if he approached to try and take advantage of no invincibility then wall jump to bair to avoid dsmash. or wait on the edge for him to approach then throw him off stage and attempt to gimp. Neither of these were reliable or fun, so is there any way to combat him on stage, any secret tips or anything? If not I think ill just end up picking secondaries if i know im going to be facing him.

I Feel like all you need vs mac is just one grab. Grab to d throw, to wait for a landing to grab to dthrow, and repeat. Of course, you can throw in a dthow follow up on one throw but once he air dodges, he gets back to the ground. Ad soon as you are grabbing him and throwing and waiting, eventually you can just lob him over the edge and whatever.

In standard neutral game, don't fire a m7ssile if they are within a roll away. Make sure you charge your charge shot as much as possible. Sometimes, you can use the charging up as a bait for a grab. Pivot grab in the nuetral works well. When you have room, run back and if they chase you, then pivot grab. Tilts and pivot tilts help a lot, as others have already mentioned.

Probably most important, learn the mac's habits. Take it slow and watch them. Do they air dodge too much? Side b too much? No grabs? A lot of smashes? These are what you have to look out far. Bait out punisheable laggy moves like smashes. Make them scared. Run at them and then jump back. Short hop in, but them jump out. Mind games are the most important thing in your arsenal besides charge shot. You gotta feed their fears.
Edgeguarding is whole other thing that involves a read, like if he doesnt drop low for up b, use a charged shot. This eats double jump to stage, side b if they are high enough, but not down b. Of course, down b is a gambl. If you don't set off his counter, he falls to his death. But you don't need me throwing out a flow chart about this.

I

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I Feel like all you need vs mac is just one grab. Grab to d throw, to wait for a landing to grab to dthrow, and repeat. Of course, you can throw in a dthow follow up on one throw but once he air dodges, he gets back to the ground. Ad soon as you are grabbing him and throwing and waiting, eventually you can just lob him over the edge and whatever.

In standard neutral game, don't fire a m7ssile if they are within a roll away. Make sure you charge your charge shot as much as possible. Sometimes, you can use the charging up as a bait for a grab. Pivot grab in the nuetral works well. When you have room, run back and if they chase you, then pivot grab. Tilts and pivot tilts help a lot, as others have already mentioned.

Probably most important, learn the mac's habits. Take it slow and watch them. Do they air dodge too much? Side b too much? No grabs? A lot of smashes? These are what you have to look out far. Bait out punisheable laggy moves like smashes. Make them scared. Run at them and then jump back. Short hop in, but them jump out. Mind games are the most important thing in your arsenal besides charge shot. You gotta feed their fears.
Edgeguarding is whole other thing that involves a read, like if he doesnt drop low for up b, use a charged shot. This eats double jump to stage, side b if they are high enough, but not down b. Of course, down b is a gambl. If you don't set off his counter, he falls to his death. But you don't need me throwing out a flow chart about this.

I

I've seen a commonly used set up where they use their down B while recovering from offstage at about Samus' height in a way where they aren't jeopardized by you triggering it. I can theorize that Zairs work well against this because the knock back might be enough to get the gimp if they don't use their counter and if they do, you're perfectly safe from where you are. They usually try going for recovering counters when they see how quick I am to nair them but If they down B predictably you can just time the nair a little later and get a guaranteed gimp.

 

[IsmaR]

You can literally just not do anything and watch them SD after the counter kills their momentum/leaves them too far to recover.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I haven't tried this, but I think you can gimp a counter attempt by activating it from the other side.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I haven't tried this, but I think you can gimp a counter attempt by activating it from the other side.

I know for a fact that you can safely Up smash a Mac counter from below him as he can only travel horizontally for it which is something else to keep in mind.

 

[Afro Smash]

Hello again, yes im back so soon... this time after playing a very good sheik! Now little mac is ok, i never found it difficult to beat him just wondering if there were ways to face him on the ground that were a little more fun than waiting by the ledge and shielding, and thx for your tips. But this Sheik I faced... now I don't think the Sheik player I faced I would've been able to beat with any other character either since he was just better than me but good lord.

This man would fair combo me at low percents like 7 times depending how far i was from the edge of the stage (would like to know if this is escapable, I know nair doesn't come out quick enough), approach with fast fall nairs in to immediate side tilts, repeatedly throw out only the first two hits of jab to keep pressuring but not allow himself to be grabbed, needle pressure for when i wanted to charge neutral b, fair to bouncing fish, and bouncing fish mix ups in general.

Her aerial speed/movement/mix ups, and lack of lag on her tilts and jabs, I just really had no idea what to do. That's not to say I didn't usually take 1 stock, I just had no real plan ever, everything I did was just an in the moment reaction, and I lost at least 3 stocks to getting stage spiked by her bair after a missed fair, but I'd really like to know if there's any gameplan to execute vs Shiek and when its safest to throw out grabs.

The player was just named 'Black', Wish I'd saved some gampeplay to show exactly the stuff he was doing.

 

[RTGNTV]

Is this the official tier list?

UPDATED 11/01/14

Some of the threads are getting a little cluttered with questions about how to fight certain characters and getting a little off topic, so let's use this thread for matchup questions and answers.

If you have trouble in certain matchups, give us footage or whatever you think is problematic, and we'll try to share our experience/strategies to help you out. If you have a solid grasp on what works against certain characters too, please feel free to chime in.

Every once in a while I'll update the OP with categorized info, possibly make a guide that can be updated (or crowd-edited in a google doc or something) just so we have more organized resources here.


Bowser

Bowser Jr.

Captain Falcon

Charizard

Dark Pit

Diddy Kong

Donkey Kong

Dr. Mario

Duck Hunt

Falco

Fox

Ganondorf

Greninja

Ike

Jigglypuff

King Dedede

Kirby

Link

Little Mac

Lucario

Lucina

Luigi

Mario

Marth

Mega Man

Meta Knight

Mewtwo

Mii Fighters

Mr. Game & Watch

Ness

Olimar

Pac-Man

Palutena

Peach

Pikachu

Pit

R.O.B.

Robin

Rosalina & Luma


Samus

Sheik

Shulk

Sonic

Toon Link

Villager

Wario

Wii Fit Trainer

Yoshi

Zelda

Zero Suit Samus

What tier is Samus and Zero Suit Samus?

Are we gonna discuss the match-ups one by one? Or more of them simultaneously?

Anyway, in my limited experience playing against Mac, the most basic thing I've found works is to just pressure him with projectiles to force an engage, and then try to block it and grab him out of it. Some of his engages (I don't know the exact moves, I've never actually played him) can actually just be stopped by grabbing him out of the attack. As soon as you have him, just try to throw him off the stage and keep him there, his recovery is so bad that if you manage to attack him after he double jumps, he's usually pretty much dead.

If he's comboing or juggling you, remember that we have vectoring instead of DI now, so you can actually steer away from him to get out of his stuff, then just try to go for the ledge and shoot a few projectiles at him to get him a bit closer to center stage so you can get back up there. Mac's not great at playing around the edges, so don't go towards him when he goes back to center stage, as he'll be at an advantage there. This also means that you shouldn't approach a grounded Mac from the air, just because he's bad in the air doesn't mean he's bad anti-air.

If you're fearing his KO punch, wait about 6 seconds. After this window of time, any damage he takes will take his KO punch away.

What is the latest up date for Smash wii u?

Sheik has Bair for tether grab...so dont camp the ledge against her..

is this a tier list for little mac?

 

[IsmaR]

1. Don't post multiple times in a row. Edit your last post if you need to add more to it.

2. There is no "official" tier list yet.

3. Don't quote random users asking completely irrelevant questions. I realize you're trying to get your post count up, but continuing as you are now will only end up with you getting banned.