Matchup Discussion

[AetherEch0s]

shield and grab? shorthopped aerials are useless this game.

 

[YourOpinionIs]

Shield and grab is amazing. I dont know why more people don't use it considering a lot of short hopped aerial has a good abit of ending lag.

 

[option.iv]

I'm definitely having trouble against Shulk and Greninja. Both have very disjointed hitboxes and move fast enough that its hard to get any projectiles out against them. They also seem to out prioritize most of her moves in boxing range. I have absolutely no idea how to beat either as Samus, and I'm going to put my money on them being some of her least favored matchups. Any advise against either would be appreciated.

My problem with samus is that everyone just short hops against me

Any advice?

For characters who recover fast after landing, you just CANNOT let them get a free short hop/jump on you. You need to anti-air and space with fair, zair, nair, and uair. Or stay mobile and do something like a retreating pivot grab and sprinkle in pivot homing missiles. Also, some chars don't have safe air-to-ground, punish those accordingly with shield-grab.

 

[n00b]

So, after playing some Rosaluma, Yoshi, Sheik and Dedede, I have some observations…

Against Rosaluma, I don't waste any time charging up, shooting missiles, or letting Rosa set up Luma. I try to get in there as quick as possible and use moves that separate them (dsmash, up b, uair maybe). I never bother with grabbing either. Rosalina becomes kind of slow, like Peach or Ness, and can be decently juggled. Her roll is pretty good, and her aerials are pretty good too, don't let yourself get caught by those. But my overall thoughts from this matchup are it's hard, mainly because it forces you into a grabless close up game.

With Yoshi, this dude is deceptively fast, and all his moves put you at disadvantage. You're launched high up and Yoshi is eager to KO via double jump uair or catching you with a fair spike. He can also run, sh air dodge pretty well and he's somehow safe after his aerials from a certain height. He doesn't have good grab or roll options though, and you can kind of outspace him for the most part. But if he gets his game going, just try to get to the ledge — DO NOT TRADE air to air, it's never in your favor. He's heavy too, and his recovery is hard to predict if they're smart, so KOing is a problem. Try to rack up damage as much as you can and go for charge shot/fsmash KOs. He's a monster in the air.

Sheik — laughably impossible for me. Sheik can't be punished by any of our tools really, and her pressure persists at ANY range — needles, down b, side b, and up close with grabs, jab, OOS SH fair/nair, ftilt, whatever. It's extremely hard to even establish space because she has such good movement to chase you down, and your floatiness doesn't help either. The only wins I got were trading dairs when they got greedy/tried to swag offstage. This feels like 9-1 to me.

Dedede is troublesome in that he has disjointed hitboxes and Gordo mixups are a threat for Samus trying to start combos where she's comfortable. Since his recovery is really good too, he can go toe-to-toe with you in the air and offstage. You have to rack up much more damage versus him and punish with Charge Shot to get KOs it seems. He's too heavy to KO in other ways, and all your other kill moves are generally outranged by him.

Of the handful of pretty good people I fought today, I'd say Sheik is the hardest matchup. It's a slaughter.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

So, after playing some Rosaluma, Yoshi, Sheik and Dedede, I have some observations…

Against Rosaluma, I don't waste any time charging up, shooting missiles, or letting Rosa set up Luma. I try to get in there as quick as possible and use moves that separate them (dsmash, up b, uair maybe). I never bother with grabbing either. Rosalina becomes kind of slow, like Peach or Ness, and can be decently juggled. Her roll is pretty good, and her aerials are pretty good too, don't let yourself get caught by those. But my overall thoughts from this matchup are it's hard, mainly because it forces you into a grabless close up game.

Sheik — laughably impossible for me. Sheik can't be punished by any of our tools really, and her pressure persists at ANY range — needles, down b, side b, and up close with grabs, jab, OOS SH fair/nair, ftilt, whatever. It's extremely hard to even establish space because she has such good movement to chase you down, and your floatiness doesn't help either. The only wins I got were trading dairs when they got greedy/tried to swag offstage. This feels like 9-1 to me.

I feel like against rosaline, you hqve to have the charged shot ready to punish with, so absolutely do charge it. I wouldn't neglect samus' s projectiles, even if rosalina can nullify them for the sole fact that this gives us some sort of control over our opponents head. I believe we need this as this prevents overly aggresive play from rosalina, and may pot3ntially give us the time we need to chargeup if they waste time using down-b.

I do not agree that separating the two are that important. And I also disagree with how you say we should do it. In fast, that should not even be a focus in this match up. Luma can come back to rosalina so easy, that splitting them up won't even matter if they voluntarily do so on their own. And even if we wanted to, d-smash is pretty bad in this game, not to mention the lag if we m7ss and the difficulty to hit with it in the first pkace. Up b needs to be set up, so that is a tough option. Up air also requires set up, so difficult option.

I believe that rosalina cannot set up luma in a way that will hurt us enough that we can waste no time. In fact, rosalina should be careful to even set up luma. If luma is too far and we get a grab, we combo off of down throw with fair or up air. If we approach aerially and she sends out luma prematurely, then we get an easy punish. If she simply waits, we chsrge up and missile camp. Luma isn't as good as we might think, but we shouldn't get careless. Star bits can be seen coming, and can be punishable if we are too close to them. Luma shot has lag which we can capitalize on. Calling luma back also takes time.

Sheki isn't too bad, but she is hard. We can take more hits than she can so our advantage lies there. We have the option to camp, and we have a combo off of d-thrown. If we get the grabs which we are supposed to get, then all is well. Otherwise, we can simply tilt and play keep away. We may get grabbed, but just move for the ledge and we will be fine. Dont jump from the ledge. Cover Sheiks landings with projectiles and fire charged shots liberally, but don't be obvious. Maintain projectile pressure on landings and recoveries. Do not overcommit to an up-b kill since you are likely to miss and get punished. Dont fear needles if you are trading projectiles. Punish needles with charged shot if you canread the throw. F tilt is good, so spam it if sheik is close. Use it to cover ground approaches if you don't want t o whiff a grab. Aerial sheik approaches can be covered with retreating aerials or pivot grabs.

WhEn sheik is at ledge, if you cant comfortable stand your ground at ledge, just run and spam missiles. U tilt covers ledge hop and ledge jump. Reaction is what you have to do at ledge, or you can simply spam u tilt qnd hope they get hit... the match up shouldn't be too hard if you play patient and punish with charged shot. Charged shot is your main kill move here.

The matchup isn't as skewed as 1-9 for samus. I believe samus can handle sheik much better than the rest of the cast.

 

[n00b]

Those are interesting points and your perspective is valuable. I have yet to face more Rosalinas, so my initial recommendations might be made too hastily, you make good points. I'll keep that in mind.

With Sheik, I feel like I've tried many of your suggestions. But she just has the speed to be safe to punish your mistakes while not being punished herself, so the reward is very little for us as Samus. I tend to be a bit of an aggro Samus since Brawl, probably to my detriment. If I fight a really good Sheik main I'll save some replays of the wreckage and ask for advice haha.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Those are interesting points and your perspective is valuable. I have yet to face more Rosalinas, so my initial recommendations might be made too hastily, you make good points. I'll keep that in mind.

With Sheik, I feel like I've tried many of your suggestions. But she just has the speed to be safe to punish your mistakes while not being punished herself, so the reward is very little for us as Samus. I tend to be a bit of an aggro Samus since Brawl, probably to my detriment. If I fight a really good Sheik main I'll save some replays of the wreckage and ask for advice haha.

I should also save some replays. I hope I can help, and I hope you can help me the same.

 

[IsmaR]

Obligatory post letting you know I'm stickying this.

Most of my experience vs Sheik is as ZSS or Yoshi, but as less speedy characters, I find pivot F-tilt/grabs will disrupt them/discourage them from rushing head on. Don't bother with either type of missiles if they're not a football field away or off stage, you're better off firing uncharged Shots.

Lastly, use wall jumping/U-tilt on the ledge rather than recovering with grapple or F-air. Your mileage may vary, but I get a lot of use out of bomb stalling.

 

[Savez]

Ok. I've resolved most of the problems I had with Mac just by playing better and smarter, knowing his recovery options and how to punish them.

Now I have trouble understanding how to deal with Yoshi.

He seems to have been buffed all around. He has OoS options and we lost missile cancelling, his dash-atk can completely negate a full charged shot his fair spike is so easy to land (tested myself) and most of all his dair does 34%. three-four. I... I don't get why this is a thing.

I've managed to beat the yoshis I found don't get me wrong but I had to go to such lenght to shoot them far enough from the stage so they couldn't recover that it just doesn't seem right.

Any clue on how to deal with them? And what could I do other then try to predict the dair and roll away? Cause shielding is a no-no since the move lasts forever, has potential to greatly reduce if not break your shield and you have to time your roll VERY precisely otherwise you'll get hit by some kicks.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Ok. I've resolved most of the problems I had with Mac just by playing better and smarter, knowing his recovery options and how to punish them.

Now I have trouble understanding how to deal with Yoshi.

He seems to have been buffed all around. He has OoS options and we lost missile cancelling, his dash-atk can completely negate a full charged shot his fair spike is so easy to land (tested myself) and most of all his dair does 34%. three-four. I... I don't get why this is a thing.

I've managed to beat the yoshis I found don't get me wrong but I had to go to such lenght to shoot them far enough from the stage so they couldn't recover that it just doesn't seem right.

Any clue on how to deal with them? And what could I do other then try to predict the dair and roll away? Cause shielding is a no-no since the move lasts forever, has potential to greatly reduce if not break your shield and you have to time your roll VERY precisely otherwise you'll get hit by some kicks.

Samus has good anti air, so if yoshi approaches from above, intercept them with up air or up b. Obviously, up b would be a huge commitment, so up air will be the safer option if you miss. You short hop goes over his dash attack and grab and egg roll, so short hop dair is something you can do. Yoshi does have interesting movement, to say the least. I usually just jump in and hut aeiral yoshis, and I end up the victor most of the time. I read an approach and fair if up air won't work. On the ground, I use grabs primarily. Yoshi can't safelt apprach us unless we get too eager and whiff a move

 

[Savez]

On the ground, I use grabs primarily. Yoshi can't safelt apprach us unless we get too eager and whiff a move

That I was doing right at least. On the air I was too scared to approach since I got comboed down pretty hard with uairs but that's was my fault for not timing the dodge right. Thanks!

 

[option.iv]

Can't Yoshi approach safely with up-b (egg throw) now? I mean, just from using that, he gets seemingly safe pressure.

Also, a little off topic, but I've been playing Megaman to battle against the faster characters. His jab/tilts are basically easy mode Samus zair. The fact that you can jump cancel from them makes it really good (though not as good against bigger characters). Also, I've never seen anyone tag me with a dash attack while shorthopping his buster shots/lemons. Sonic can't go autopilot against this. I'm considering Megaman a good counter-pick for Sonic, even LittleMac, and possibley a good secondary for Samus players.

 

[Savez]

Can't Yoshi approach safely with up-b (egg throw) now? I mean, just from using that, he gets seemingly safe pressure.

Also, a little off topic, but I've been playing Megaman to battle against the faster characters. His jab/tilts are basically easy mode Samus zair. The fact that you can jump cancel from them makes it really good (though not as good against bigger characters). Also, I've never seen anyone tag me with a dash attack while shorthopping his buster shots/lemons. Sonic can't go autopilot against this. I'm considering Megaman a good counter-pick for Sonic, even LittleMac, and possibley a good secondary for Samus players.

The thing about megaman is that it feels a bit stiff and other than his aerials all his other moves (specials and tilts) are unsafe and not that useful. Anyway question. Do the lemons make the enemies flintch? What moves can challenge them and still go through?

 

[Tasokun]

I can't, for the life of me, beat experienced Mario players. It seems to give me more trouble than any other character. His dash attack just completely wrecks me at every scenario, and then they follow it up immediately with Mario's instant-priority aerials. Getting down from the air becomes a chore against Mario, and, I just feel as if I'm locked into certain moves as half of them are just completely countered by him. The most difficult ones to beat are the ones who mix between spacing with jump+fireballs and just rushing down on me whenever I attempt to set anything up. Shielding+Grabbing used to be my immediate counter to Mario's dash, but lately I've seen many more Marios who just run and grab instead. The aerial fireballs- are a massive pain in my metalic rear, especially since they cancel out projectiles and make air-grabbing MUCH more difficult.

Tips would be highly appreciated, such as how to avoid getting juggled, and how to beat that pesky dash. With other characters, what I usually do when a dash is imminent, is pull a quick retreat + Pivot Missile, and that works perfectly fine, such a feat is impossible against Mario though (just goes over his head). Another thing I've been meaning to practice on is just air-dodging the first of Mario's aerials and then doing an up aerial while I'm under him, but, Mario still just wrecks in the air. Everything is risky against him..

Thanks - Taso

 

[The TaBuu]

This may sound super silly but doesn't Samus have ...

• Ftilt to space out non-disjointed characters that like to rush down Samus, such as Little Mac and Pikachu
• Zair to space aerial approaches and characters that do possess some disjointed move like Ike and Marth
• Up-B Oos if characters like Sheik begin to disrespect a shielding Samus and get unsafe with moves like Fair and Dash Attack
• Retreating Nair to box out short range characters such as Mario

Samus is a tough character to learn and definitely struggles in several match-ups, however Samus has all the tools to win if played right. IDK, could just be me being too optimistic

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Can't Yoshi approach safely with up-b (egg throw) now? I mean, just from using that, he gets seemingly safe pressure.

When yoshi throws and egg, we can fire a missile. The missiles fly straight, while the eggs travel in an arc, so they won't cancel each other out, and the eggs must move further to hit us, but the eggs fly faster than homing missiles and I think they fly a bit faster than power missiles. Depending on who fires first and how close we are, the outcome will vary. The is dependent on situational factors, so getting a feel for them can make yoshi's projectiles less safe than we might think.

If yoshi jumps, the eggs can still arc to hit us, and our power missiles will miss if not timed to cover a landing. Usually, yoshis will land into the missile if they dont jump high enough, and if they start jumping high enough, we can quickly get in there, if the yoshi is close enough, and punish. If the yoshi is far, and they lob eggs, then the eggs will have to fly longer to actually hit us, giving us the time to easily react as we fire our own missiles. Our missiles apply much more pressure than yoshi's eggs, and we can choose to charge our charge shot if we want since that yoshi is all the way on the other side of the stage.

The thing about megaman is that it feels a bit stiff and other than his aerials all his other moves (specials and tilts) are unsafe and not that useful. Anyway question. Do the lemons make the enemies flintch? What moves can challenge them and still go through?

I have fought samus while playing as megaman, and megaman can easily roll pass a whiffed grab or smash and u-tilt or d-smash if we aren't careful. Lemons do flinch, but only for a very short amount of time so if they commit to grounded pellets (bad move) then we can f-tilt after hitstun, or fire a charged shot before we are hit. If they jump (best possible move out of pellets), then that sucks for us because they are out of range and can resume that amazing pressure. All good megaman players will jump after firing their pellets. Away from us or to us depends on their preference.

Megaman's specials (metal blade and crash bomber) can be spammed faster than samus's projectiles so we can't camp him unless we jump and fire homing missiles. We can just charge our charge shot as he tries to spam, so there is that option for us.

Megaman's only unsafe tilt is u-tilt because of the ending lag. d-tilt can be punished if we shield or they mispace it.

Megaman has a much better aerial game than us, however, but as always, samus can punish aerially approaching megamans rather easily if we are grounded. Just beware when recovering against megaman. His edgeguarding capability is ridiculously good.

Megaman can also cover our landings with his f-smash, so we should always go for ledge when they don't chase us in the air.

 

[Tasokun]

Also, I'd like to leave a tip for those who are paired up with opponents who reflect, such as Falco, Pit, and Mario; something I've been practicing lately is, instead of fully charging your beam, just half-way charge it. Later on, when they see you open your beam back up again, they may try to reflect it, however, you'll be able to hold it in a bit longer and fire it once their reflect has finished and they're facing end-lag. If the opponent decides to wait it out before reflecting, just continue to use the opportunity to fully charge your beam and cancel, saving it for later. Not really a tech or anything, but definitely helps with mind-games. I suppose it can also punish rolls, but, I haven't tested that too much.

 

[option.iv]

When yoshi throws and egg, we can fire a missile. The missiles fly straight, while the eggs travel in an arc, so they won't cancel each other out, and the eggs must move further to hit us, but the eggs fly faster than homing missiles and I think they fly a bit faster than power missiles. Depending on who fires first and how close we are, the outcome will vary. The is dependent on situational factors, so getting a feel for them can make yoshi's projectiles less safe than we might think.

If yoshi jumps, the eggs can still arc to hit us, and our power missiles will miss if not timed to cover a landing. Usually, yoshis will land into the missile if they dont jump high enough, and if they start jumping high enough, we can quickly get in there, if the yoshi is close enough, and punish. If the yoshi is far, and they lob eggs, then the eggs will have to fly longer to actually hit us, giving us the time to easily react as we fire our own missiles. Our missiles apply much more pressure than yoshi's eggs, and we can choose to charge our charge shot if we want since that yoshi is all the way on the other side of the stage.

I'm talking about how Yoshi can jump forward and up b, making it so he's on top/behind the egg. Not from afar. It makes it so it's like a psuedo-jump in.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I'm talking about how Yoshi can jump forward and up b, making it so he's on top/behind the egg. Not from afar. It makes it so it's like a psuedo-jump in.

oh, well then you either read that and time a charged shot, which I will admit is really hard to do in the air) or you run in under them, though this only works if they were pretty close to begin with. Otherwise, I can't think of anything else since I haven't really tried out much yet.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

Has anyone had any consistent luck against Ness? I very rarely see them online, so I don't get as much practice against human players as I'd like, but when I do I get wrecked. I'm pretty sure its mostly his godly Fair and the fact that pk fire is near inescapable now and not only is a huge setup but on its own does a lot of damage. I just get the sinking feeling I am missing something here, as I don't feel I should lose as badly as I do against them.

BTW reading this thread has helped a ton, let's keep at it!

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Megaman's specials (metal blade and crash bomber) can be spammed faster than samus's projectiles so we can't camp him unless we jump and fire homing missiles. We can just charge our charge shot as he tries to spam, so there is that option for us.

Samus' Super Missile goes straight through Crash Bomber.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Samus' Super Missile goes straight through Crash Bomber.

My god, you are right! That skews the matchup oh so much more in our favor (I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic because I truly mean this). I have been playing a megaman, but I'm not entirely sure if he was adequate with the character, or bad in the matchup, but me, playing as Samus, wrecked his megaman on yoshi's island and on fd. I think I just played against bad samus players when I used megaman.

Samus can use her own fair to beat out megaman's fair. If he jumps in, then so can we, and we will almost always win out. His dair is slow on startup and on ending, so we should be able to easily counter with up air or up b. Megaman's up air is interesting, but that is it. It lacks the utility you would have hoped. The only aerial I am afraid of is his bair. It still covers our recoveries rather well.

You can f-tilt while being hit by pellets. If megaman is too close, he gets hit. And if megaman starts firing pellets ever, we can just fire a charged shot. the lag of the pellets prevents him from shielding, and jumping over the charged shot requires really good reactions. Though, pellets beat missiles, but we can just follow up missiles with charged shot.

 

[DerpaDoo]

I have been having problems with Mario (D-air has more priority than U-air and has very small amounts of lag). His dash attack has very little lag afterwords also so in order to shield grab you have to hit 'a' right after he connects with his dash attack, so its easy for him to just short hop behind and b-air to tilt. Cape forces limits Samus's projectiles zoning capabilities, and combos don't work as well on Mario since he is floatier.

Also, I played against a few good Diddy's and their combo game just left me in the dust. I had to switch to sheik or zss in order to have a decent chance at winning although this was before I started using up-b out of shield which works like Samus in melee and can disrupt combos very easily.

Luma isn't too bad except for finding a halfway decent approach. Her roll and grab are fast so trying to approach via dash attack doesn't seem to work too well, and pivot tilting seemed to work only some of the time depending on what she does out of roll. I usually go 1:1 with them but they are incredibly boring matches and I just lose patiences during them.


The hardest part is punishing with Samus imo. I can usually get good reads on people, but it doesn't seem to matter too much. I can't find any really viable times to use nair and he slow air movement makes it hard to approach aerially.

I feel like you can vector out of PK Fire. I haven't had any problems with ness, actually. Most of the time all they do is Pk-fire to dash attach and I just DI out of fire to shield grab. Charge and time D-smash to punish rolls, and Samus's fair seems to have more priority than Ness's fair. Also fast fall u-air to get under his fair just to mix it up. Since it has little lag you can usually follow up pretty easily.

Has anyone had any consistent luck against Ness? I very rarely see them online, so I don't get as much practice against human players as I'd like, but when I do I get wrecked. I'm pretty sure its mostly his godly Fair and the fact that pk fire is near inescapable now and not only is a huge setup but on its own does a lot of damage. I just get the sinking feeling I am missing something here, as I don't feel I should lose as badly as I do against them.

BTW reading this thread has helped a ton, let's keep at it!

 

[caldw19940]

First Smash game I picked up Samus and really enjoying her so far. I may not be able to offer as much insight as others but I'll say what I've noticed. Overall slower characters or ones lacking in projectiles seem like obvious matches in her favor and she seems to do just fine against even characters with reflectors due to her missiles being as slow as they are to not effect her much or bait them out for a fully charged neutral B.

I've heard some players say Mac can be tough, others say he's not bad. I've personally not had too much trouble with him, her grab range is enough to force them to be a lot more careful going for armored moves and the use of Bombs and F-tilt to disrupt him and out range him upclose works too. "You ain't no air fighter Mac" rings true as even Samus' somewhat meh aerials outclass his and he's very very very easy to cheese out after a backthrow or almost any move that'll knock back a good bit. Once he's off missiles, bombs, bair and dair become great ways to keep him back as he struggles to recover. He's forced to come near you since he has no long range attacks so it's not too difficult to just shield > grab his approaches when ducking and weaving past neutral B and missiles and just toss him off stage and sometimes kill him from low percentage just because his recovery is terrible.

The characters I've had trouble with however tend to be ones with strong aerials (Yoshi) or very fast characters with some long range options (Sheik, ZSS, Greninja), I haven't fought Sonic enough to say how I feel about the MU but he seems to do okay at getting in on her due to his speed. Anyone able to share any experience or advice on how to combat some of these?

 

[DerpaDoo]

Sheik seems like a similar matchup to the melee counterpart. Just avoid grabs, use a lot of ftilts, dtilts, and utilt if she is approaching from air. Also fast fall uair is good for catching them off guard from fairs, just don't be too predictable. Upb out of shield if too much shield pressure or try to create some space between the characters. I usually just block needles every time.

First Smash game I picked up Samus and really enjoying her so far. I may not be able to offer as much insight as others but I'll say what I've noticed. Overall slower characters or ones lacking in projectiles seem like obvious matches in her favor and she seems to do just fine against even characters with reflectors due to her missiles being as slow as they are to not effect her much or bait them out for a fully charged neutral B.

I've heard some players say Mac can be tough, others say he's not bad. I've personally not had too much trouble with him, her grab range is enough to force them to be a lot more careful going for armored moves and the use of Bombs and F-tilt to disrupt him and out range him upclose works too. "You ain't no air fighter Mac" rings true as even Samus' somewhat meh aerials outclass his and he's very very very easy to cheese out after a backthrow or almost any move that'll knock back a good bit. Once he's off missiles, bombs, bair and dair become great ways to keep him back as he struggles to recover. He's forced to come near you since he has no long range attacks so it's not too difficult to just shield > grab his approaches when ducking and weaving past neutral B and missiles and just toss him off stage and sometimes kill him from low percentage just because his recovery is terrible.

The characters I've had trouble with however tend to be ones with strong aerials (Yoshi) or very fast characters with some long range options (Sheik, ZSS, Greninja), I haven't fought Sonic enough to say how I feel about the MU but he seems to do okay at getting in on her due to his speed. Anyone able to share any experience or advice on how to combat some of these?

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I have been having problems with Mario (D-air has more priority than U-air and has very small amounts of lag). His dash attack has very little lag afterwords also so in order to shield grab you have to hit 'a' right after he connects with his dash attack, so its easy for him to just short hop behind and b-air to tilt. Cape forces limits Samus's projectiles zoning capabilities, and combos don't work as well on Mario since he is floatier.

The hardest part is punishing with Samus imo. I can usually get good reads on people, but it doesn't seem to matter too much. I can't find any really viable times to use nair and he slow air movement makes it hard to approach aerially.

So, against mario, his ground game is much faster than ours. His roll is quick, his dash attack is guick, his smashes with d-smash in particular- are quick. We can't try to contest this. Try fighting ev en a level 9 mario and you will see what I kean. Luckily, we are fighting humans, and not powershielding, perfect roll timing, safe-playing jerks.

A lot of mario players go in and cape if they see you charging up. Usually by ground. You get a grab. Oh, and while charging, simply press the grab button to immediately grab. Or if by air, we cancel our shot into shield and react accordingly. The best thing a Mario can do is to fake a ground approach, we whiff a grab, and they punish. The safest thing for them to do is to spam fireballs. I don't need to tell you how to evade spam.

So wehen mario gets a grab at low percents, expect a d-throw combo. You can airdodge after the first u-tilt so vector away and air dodge. Usually, they won't expect this. Do this enough and you get read and regrabbed.

So mario can easily roll past your ftilt or dtilt and then grab or dsmash.That Iis just how mario plays, so always expect rolls. Maybe don't make super hardnreads, but do know that it is coming, and prepare accordingly. Use low lag moves like ftilt always. Utilt of fair against air approaches, etc.

I found that samus can adequately juggle with up air. Hisdair vs my up air usually worked out for me, though probably because of disjoint. Can anyone shed light on samus up air versus mario dair?


THe main thingin this matchup is learning the mario's habit. They get too comfortable doing certain things, so much that I we should be ableto capitalize and land fsmashes. Watch how the get off ledge, how they react to aapproaches, how they react when you charge your charge shot, etc. You will always find that they have a preference to roll a certain way or whatever.

Also, always have a charge on hand, even if you decide that you'll never use it. It keeps the opponent on edge if only for the fact that they have a reflect that encourages them to use it. I got a few free grabs against a mario because they were too eager to cape a charged shot that never came. I have replays saved, but ill only upload if someone asks because in opinion, those matches were boring to watch over.Al

How do we feel about Luigi?

His dthrow combos in other aerials as well as his up tilt, and most of his aerials seem to outprioritize ours.

I know this is a double post and I am sorry, but the thread will not be bumped by an edited comment.

 

[andilex]

sorry didnt mean to double

are they any options we have against zzs down b?
since it can just manuver around our missles and charge shot.
and its hell once we are in the air against her

also i have a bad habit of wanting to shield grab against her on block.
llike if she fast fall up airs, its safe for her to up tilt, so if u block up air, and try to grab. you will get hit by uptilt.
also in certain distances, her dash attack is safe on block if u go for a grab, shell just jab and punish startup of grab like utilt.

is bomb the only thing we can do in the air against a rush down character while falling down?

 

[Tasokun]

My friend has became the master of gimping by spamming Mario's fireballs.. and It's extremely irritating. Both matches I pertained an 80% lead until the very end, but died from fireball gimpage at the low percentages of 20%-35%. What makes it even more annoying, is half the time after being gimped, tethering ends up turning into an aerial, and in the worst case, a forward aerial. It's literally hell fighting Mario.. I guess I should use Up-B after being gimped but it's still irritating. Pikachu also gives me similar troubles as well.

 

[n00b]

are they any options we have against zzs down b?
since it can just manuver around our missles and charge shot.
and its hell once we are in the air against her

also i have a bad habit of wanting to shield grab against her on block.
llike if she fast fall up airs, its safe for her to up tilt, so if u block up air, and try to grab. you will get hit by uptilt.
also in certain distances, her dash attack is safe on block if u go for a grab, shell just jab and punish startup of grab like utilt.

is bomb the only thing we can do in the air against a rush down character while falling down?

For ZSS/fast characters you just need to fight them over time and see what's safe. For example even with Link and Shulk, they have surprisingly safe moves that samus can't properly punish with shieldgrab. ZSS can just jab/do whatever when she gets pressure on. The only thing I find to be unsafe is her dair on block and a mistimed dash attack on block. If I see a ZSS jumping around with Down B I just try not to contest it. Stay in front of her or below her, really.

My friend has became the master of gimping by spamming Mario's fireballs.. and It's extremely irritating. Both matches I pertained an 80% lead until the very end, but died from fireball gimpage at the low percentages of 20%-35%. What makes it even more annoying, is half the time after being gimped, tethering ends up turning into an aerial, and in the worst case, a forward aerial. It's literally hell fighting Mario.. I guess I should use Up-B after being gimped but it's still irritating. Pikachu also gives me similar troubles as well.

How are you dealing with the spam? do you take advantage of canceling your dash into shield, your dash into spotdodge, etc? do you try to pre-emptively zair him to control the pace of fireballs? And as for tether recovery, read this:

Problem: Fair instead of tethering under some unknown circumstance
Expected result: Tapping Grab in midair should cause a tether recovery attempt, or at least a z-air, not fair.
Steps to reproduce: Get hit, enter and complete hitstun. Wait some frames while "tumbling" midair, hold forward, tap Z. Do not input any other actions and fair should come out.

When hit, and after completing suffering hitstun, and left in a "tumble" state (but free to move as no longer in hitstun), some frames afterwards, holding forward and tapping grab causes a Fair.

If you double jump, air dodge, etc out of hitstun so you're no longer tumbling, you should get a zair and not a fair.
If you hold forward and mash z-air immediately out of hitstun (and some frames afterwards, but not as much as the first scenario) you should still get zair.

So if you get gimped out of your double jump, do your best to do some other action (air dodge) before going for the grapple.

 

[Tasokun]

How are you dealing with the spam? do you take advantage of canceling your dash into shield, your dash into spotdodge, etc? do you try to pre-emptively zair him to control the pace of fireballs? And as for tether recovery, read this:

I've tried zairing but the pace of the fireballs just accumulate underneath me and I end up landing on top of them or something, or he actually manages to hit me while I'm in the air with a fireball. I do run+shield cancel but it usually ends with me being aerial'd or grabbed. :[ While off stage, I mostly try to tether to the edge immediately so fireballs are too slow to get to me, but, sometimes it fails, and I get hit by the tiniest part of the ball. It sucks because, I press A to reel in quickly, yet the tether cancels and then I'm sent into an aerial instead of reeling. I actually already knew about the tumble thing but, it's just harder in specific situations like these because it happens so quickly, especially in scenarios where I expect the grab and/or A button to do something else entirely (reel-in). I feel like I've nailed a lot of Mario's Other strategies considering I've been having massive leads against them lately, it's just the wacky anticlimactic situations that end up in me losing, and those types of things happen often against Mario for some reason..

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Hey guys, what's up with that Zelda matchup? Is it me or is it an up hill battle??

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Hey guys, what's up with that Zelda matchup? Is it me or is it an up hill battle??

Yes. I also want to know what is up in this matchup. I have yet to face a decent Zelda, and I am unfamiliar with Zelda in a lot of aspects. What can she do effectively? What should I avoid? What shouldI know about zelda before playing against her? And can I combo her off a throw?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

• Her neutral B reflects a lot later in the animation than before. I think if your opponent is continually pressing the B button she'll be continually reflecting projectiles with no gab between the inputs.
• Her neutral B has priority over our dash attack.
• Her teleport is a kill move and it has so much range. We have to condition ourselves to shield once we hear that teleport noise.
• Her down B has way more range than one would expect and eats projectiles. If used on the ledge, it can make recovery problematic.
• Her aerials seem to beat out all of ours.

It seems to me we have to play as aggressively as possible and not giver her a chance to breathe. If we go in to aggressive though she'll beat us out with her neutral B so it's important to bait that out of her and punish with a pivot grab. I'll be playing this match up quite a bit and hope to be able to provide better insight soon enough.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Zelda can punish our missiles with her upB, so it'd probably be best to avoid missile play.

If you tap her icon on the touch screen you can see where she's teleporting. Also note that when used on the ground she can shorten it, but if used in the air it has to go the full distance (if she teleports down to the ground she'll continue to go the direction she's facing).

 

[IsmaR]

Z-air, Z-air, and more Z-air. Any Zelda caught playing Reflector bait, or throwing out Phantoms should eat one.

F-air and D-tilt help as far as the range/priority issue go. The problem is racking up damage rather than killing since Zelda is so light (and has a fairly well-telegraphed recovery). While we lose out on our main projectiles at face value, they still function at range to both punish any end-lag on her special moves (one slip-up with her teleport or Din's Fire and it's pewpew) and destroy Phantom (destroying it prevents it from spawning for a good while).

As far as approaching goes, let Zelda come to you. Retreating/sinking Z-air, pivot grabs/F-tilt, and short hop U-air/F-air or U-tilt do well to cover her approaching from either the ground or air (watch out for the delay on N-air and obviously light kicks, of course). Empty jumps and shield dashing for when they don't feel up to it, or if you've got the timing down pat, use lots of homing missiles + Z-air through them if she tries to reflect.

I have a fair bit of experience with this match-up on both sides. Zelda's got a few things going for her, but struggles once you learn to adapt.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Hey, @ n00b . Weren't you going to organize all the good info here in the OP?

Anyways, how does everyone feel about Luigi? I myself feel like we have too hard a time with him. Thoughts anyone?

 

[toadster101]

If there is a Samus user here named Royvox, you can literally go **** yourself. He spent the ENTIRE match shield rolling away from me and spamming projectiles. The match took so long that we had to do sudden death, and I'm sure you can figure out who won.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

If there is a Samus user here named Royvox, you can literally go **** yourself. He spent the ENTIRE match shield rolling away from me and spamming projectiles. The match took so long that we had to do sudden death, and I'm sure you can figure out who won.

... hello guy, but this is a matchup thread. Not a place for you to call out someone

(pretty sure there is a thread for that like this one:
http://smashboards.com/threads/who-was-that-the-player-finder-thread.371217/ )

But if you want matchup help, then I am sure the community would be happy to oblige ;P

 

[toadster101]

... hello guy, but this is a matchup thread. Not a place for you to call out someone

(pretty sure there is a thread for that like this one:
http://smashboards.com/threads/who-was-that-the-player-finder-thread.371217/ )

But if you want matchup help, then I am sure the community would be happy to oblige ;P

The reason I posted here is because the King Dedede/Samus matchup is completely one sided. You guys should be happy that the "Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire" has such an easy time against the King of Dream Land.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

The reason I posted here is because the King Dedede/Samus matchup is completely one sided. You guys should be happy that the "Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire" has such an easy time against the King of Dream Land.

I see. That's cool.

I've been having trouble against Ike, I'm fairly new to competitive (definitely not new to Smash) so any tips would be helpful.

Gosh! I realized that nobody answered your question! So, Ike can short hop nair, and this covers a lot of space and if this hits you, it can set up for Ike gimmicks. Also watch out for rolling too much since Ike is one of the best at punishing with up smash (covers both sides rather than one from f-smash).

Ike can not really go deep for edge guarding so always recover low. Watch out for ledge drop bair and run off fair or nair as these are his main edge guards.

So always spam missiles. This covers a lot of his approaches. He has to jump or roll and his roll isn't the best. Missiles cover his side b and all ground approaches though.

Ikes mainly play mind games and they may fake out approaches so watch out for that. One notable thing to mention is that if you get hit high, good Ikes will simply jump and fast fall over and over and essentially shark from under you so go for ledge. This gimmick can be tricky at times since they don't over commit, and you are a sitting duck in the air. Up air is scary. This juggles you and has kill potential.

Alternatively, you can juggle Ike easily, though this is a universal fact for all matchups versus Ike. Your up air is sooooooo good here, it isn't fair.

Maintain consistent pressure with tilts and missiles and zair. Always screw with Ike's momentum because an Ike with momentum messes with your head and puts too much fear in you, but don't be brash because Ike punishes too offensive play. If you can keep ike from getting momentum, then you will be able to whittle him enough that he gets impatient and takes huge risks whereas you can pick off a kill with charged shot or get a grab, and edge guard.

One thing to mention is that Ike has terrible horizontal recovery when low and if you can nair him when he is over the ledge, he is most likely a goner.

What else...?