Matchup Discussion

[RoachCake]

I always find myself getting trashed by alot of Dededes, I didn't know that Z-air beat his F-tilt though, good to know for the next Dedede I face.

 

[Hapajin]

I also feel like the Rosalina and Toon Link are rough matches for Samus, although it might just be me. Luma is really a pain when it comes to projectiles and Rosalina has a solid close range and aerial game that Samus has trouble with. I come across similar issues with Toon Link, with his solid projectile and air game.

 

[Xygonn]

I also feel like the Rosalina and Toon Link are rough matches for Samus, although it might just be me. Luma is really a pain when it comes to projectiles and Rosalina has a solid close range and aerial game that Samus has trouble with. I come across similar issues with Toon Link, with his solid projectile and air game.

Luma is a rough matchup. I basically try to bait out the luma to be vulnerable. Kill the luma with CS or other attacks while opposite of Rosalina, then get agro on Rosalina. She is tall at least so you can hit with Usmash on the ground and Zair pretty easily.

 

[n00b]

I might have missed this earlier in the thread, but re: Rosaluma, do we know exactly which of Samus's moves put Luma into tumble state?

 

[Xygonn]

Not sure exactly, but anything over 8% seems to tumble Luma. CS I think kills Luma even from center stage. If Luma is being charged I will missile->CS and kill luma every time. Totally worth the CS.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The tumble animation is determined by knockback and like other characters knockback increases after taking damage. The following moves can knock Luma into tumble animation at full HP:
Dtilt, Utilt, dash attack (early and late hit), Sweetspot Fsmash, Up smash, Down smash (both hits), Bair, final hit of Up air, fully charged Charge Shot and Screw Attack. There are moves that can after doing some damage the best of those are probably Jab 2, Nair and Super Missile.

Luma also has stun when hit by anything (Jab 1 and Zair for instance) making Luma's antics much easier to deal with. In fact it's very possible to get Jab combo on Luma at any point. I'm not sure about the frame data but there's an extremely small window where Luma can hit us before the second Jab. It's fairly safe against anything besides rapid jab though.

I kinda like the matchup tbh.

 

[Eisen]

Question...

How on earth is Samus supposed to beat Falco or Fox? ESPECIALLY Fox. Fox has everything he needs to basically invalidate Samus.

- Better/faster recovery
- faster on the ground
- easier to land moves/moves don't have tiny hitboxes
- can reflect all her projectiles
- basically can just run away and blaster the whole match and reflector to make Samus approach with one of her godawful hitboxes, then punish.

So.... what do?

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ Eisen

You're going to stay grounded, take centre stage and kick them. Literally, f-titlt. It is not as bad as it sounds, Samus' leg is amazingly long in this game, they have short little limbs. Once the percents get higher and they start to fly creating distance you can introduce more elements to your style but you're going to kick, pivot kick and grab until %s get higher. Fish for a dash attack combo, but not too hard. Don't roll, and don't jump. When they jump in up-B out of shield. If they spam lasers, z-air. From centre stage, you can reach them.

Their recoveries are amongst the most predictable in the game I feel, I can regularly spike them.

 

[Xygonn]

Question...

How on earth is Samus supposed to beat Falco or Fox? ESPECIALLY Fox. Fox has everything he needs to basically invalidate Samus.

- Better/faster recovery
- faster on the ground
- easier to land moves/moves don't have tiny hitboxes
- can reflect all her projectiles
- basically can just run away and blaster the whole match and reflector to make Samus approach with one of her godawful hitboxes, then punish.

So.... what do?

I'm just going to address the zoning matchup.
It's ok to tank Fox's blaster. It actually has decently long lag to stop so a dash grab should get there. It seems like most Fox's (probably not really good ones) are confused when you just tank the blaster. If they are all the way on the edge. Just charge up out of range of the blaster.
Falco is easier to bait with homing missiles that you follow up with CS (hard timing admittedly but very effective). I find I like to not rush Falco down but play a typical spacing game with him. Mostly homing missiles shot at him from the air.
Samus' fair is a nightmare to both spacies forward-b recovery.
Bomb is a great gimp near the ledge against the spacies because their snap to edge is pretty terrible and forward-b and up-b both set off the bomb. Ledge bomb->dtilted fsmash or dsmash is a good edge guard if they start recovering lower.
I usually win this matchup in FG, especially when some poor fool that clearly doesn't main Fox tries to use him as a "hard" counter.

 

[Eisen]

For the record, I'm not talking about For Glory Foxes. I'm talking about ones that actually know what they're doing and stop using lasers the instant you try to close any gap at all. I've tried dash attack and dash grab. Both are horribly punishable by Fox, don't have great hitboxes, don't last long at all, and usually get dodged/shield grabbed. I try to mix it up but it's like... what else do I approach with? I can't CC dtilt in this game, trying for an up-close charge shot is dangerous against Fox, and all ftilt does is reset the neutral.

Most of what I do is mixing up dash attack, fox trots, dash grabs, pivot ftilts and retreating aerials. The fact of the matter is, though, all those moves combined leave massive holes in Samus' typical wall. And yeah you can kinda gimp Fox with fair while he's recovering, but it's not going to be at a low enough percent to where it makes a difference. Plus, if Fox predicts the fair, he can simply opt for up B if he's close enough, or airdodge > side B > up B. Bombs hardly work since they explode on a timer unlike PM (Idk about Melee) which explodes on contact and actually is capable of gimps.

The problem with Samus is, even if you get a read, it's more likely than not that your hitboxes are too small to reach. It'd be like if Marth's/Lucina's best way of punishing/killing was their neutral B and if fair took like 3 times as long to end. At least, I feel that's the case in the Fox MU. Thinking about it, their animations are pretty similar. Hell, even shield breaker has advantages over Samus' Fsmash. It can be done in the air, for one, used for recovery, and actually breaks shields. Samus' Fsmash has all the startup and endlag and like, half of the reward for using it.

 

[Xygonn]

For the record, I'm not talking about For Glory Foxes. I'm talking about ones that actually know what they're doing and stop using lasers the instant you try to close any gap at all.

I freely admit I'm not "competitively" good so I can't speak to it the same as other better Samus players.

For my approach I often use:
Short hop->homing missile to put some pressure on from above that can't be reflected in to you. Chase after you fire it, then try to make a read as you approach for a dash attack, grab, RAR, or CS.

I've tried dash attack and dash grab. Both are horribly punishable by Fox, don't have great hitboxes, don't last long at all, and usually get dodged/shield grabbed. I try to mix it up but it's like... what else do I approach with? I can't CC dtilt in this game, trying for an up-close charge shot is dangerous against Fox, and all ftilt does is reset the neutral.

Dash grab is super punishable by all characters, which kinda sucks, but if I think they are going to shield a homing missile from the short hop earlier it should be able to land. I wouldn't abuse this approach. I don't feel like the dash attack is that punishable if you try to hit in the early frames. Maybe I'm crazy and just haven't played against a good enough Fox IRL.

Most of what I do is mixing up dash attack, fox trots, dash grabs, pivot ftilts and retreating aerials.

I don't know how I feel about a retreating aerial against fox, seems like he could dash in on anything other than a zair for a punish. Landing is harsh in this game.

The fact of the matter is, though, all those moves combined leave massive holes in Samus' typical wall. And yeah you can kinda gimp Fox with fair while he's recovering, but it's not going to be at a low enough percent to where it makes a difference. Plus, if Fox predicts the fair, he can simply opt for up B if he's close enough, or airdodge > side B > up B. Bombs hardly work since they explode on a timer unlike PM (Idk about Melee) which explodes on contact and actually is capable of gimps.

They do have a lot of change ups to their recovery, but once you have them recovering low, the bomb becomes much more practical.

The problem with Samus is, even if you get a read, it's more likely than not that your hitboxes are too small to reach. It'd be like if Marth's/Lucina's best way of punishing/killing was their neutral B and if fair took like 3 times as long to end. At least, I feel that's the case in the Fox MU. Thinking about it, their animations are pretty similar. Hell, even shield breaker has advantages over Samus' Fsmash. It can be done in the air, for one, used for recovery, and actually breaks shields. Samus' Fsmash has all the startup and endlag and like, half of the reward for using it.

That is the cost of having CS. I know it's always dangerous to use against fox and falco, but you can still use it to punish some moves and recoveries.

I hardly ever use F-smash except at the same time/right after a bomb hits, utilted into a bad arial approach, or as a punish for an unsafe landing. It's not much of an offensive weapon especially against Fox.

Bombs go off if they are attacked, forward b and up b will both set off the bombs and stun fox or falco for a short time. Best used just over the edge to set up another hit. Kinda like this (conceptually):

https://vid.me/bhMd

If they try to recover high->fair if they go low->bomb

Maybe one of the actual good Samus players can help you more.

That crazy 0 -> 50% string RC taught me does work on Ness incidentally, I got some jaw dropping mileage out of it yesterday. dash attack -> cross up-air -> jump -> b-air -> b-air. Really upped my game.
Still trying to land those d-air strings. Many hundred attempts in training. D-air can actually true combo into itself...! This is probably old news for some. The hitboxes are weird and all varying priority. 14-10-11.

Careful with this combo, it stales your b-air which is one of Samus' few kill options. A clean fresh b-air is almost as good as fsmash.

 

[FlAlex]

For the record, I'm not talking about For Glory Foxes. I'm talking about ones that actually know what they're doing and stop using lasers the instant you try to close any gap at all. I've tried dash attack and dash grab. Both are horribly punishable by Fox, don't have great hitboxes, don't last long at all, and usually get dodged/shield grabbed. I try to mix it up but it's like... what else do I approach with? I can't CC dtilt in this game, trying for an up-close charge shot is dangerous against Fox, and all ftilt does is reset the neutral.

Most of what I do is mixing up dash attack, fox trots, dash grabs, pivot ftilts and retreating aerials. The fact of the matter is, though, all those moves combined leave massive holes in Samus' typical wall. And yeah you can kinda gimp Fox with fair while he's recovering, but it's not going to be at a low enough percent to where it makes a difference. Plus, if Fox predicts the fair, he can simply opt for up B if he's close enough, or airdodge > side B > up B. Bombs hardly work since they explode on a timer unlike PM (Idk about Melee) which explodes on contact and actually is capable of gimps.

The problem with Samus is, even if you get a read, it's more likely than not that your hitboxes are too small to reach. It'd be like if Marth's/Lucina's best way of punishing/killing was their neutral B and if fair took like 3 times as long to end. At least, I feel that's the case in the Fox MU. Thinking about it, their animations are pretty similar. Hell, even shield breaker has advantages over Samus' Fsmash. It can be done in the air, for one, used for recovery, and actually breaks shields. Samus' Fsmash has all the startup and endlag and like, half of the reward for using it.

As someone who has played some very good FG foxes, I feel it is safe to say that you better switch to a secondary character for that MU. Samus is just easy prey for the pesky spacies. Don't pick Samus if you can help it.

You are correct. Everything you do is punishable. If you have to live with this MU, I say start standing your ground but don't be static, stay on the ground unless fishing for a read, get used to performing jab1 without continuing on to jab2, tank lasers to charge CS, learn all her Charge-cancel options, and only use SH>Dodge and SH> Dair as your aerial-to-ground options. Only Dtilt when they are close enough.

Remember that these are your safest moves: Ftilt, Jab1, SH>Dair, Zair. Stay with them. Do not use any other move unless reading or punishing.

Also, as a Marth secondary, I feel I should point out that Samus' Fsmash produces more knockback than shield breaker (not sure about Lucina's) or at least I feel they do.

Best of luck!

 

[Ffamran]

Attention all personnel. Meteor impact will occur in four minutes.

Hello Samus players, the Falco boards have a Samus MU discussion thread up. I would love it if we could have input from you all. Here's a link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-06-samus-shoot-first.390326/.

And yes, it does take Falco 4 minutes to land Dair and meteor someone in SSB4 now.

 

[FlAlex]

Attention all personnel. Meteor impact will occur in four minutes.

Hello Samus players, the Falco boards have a Samus MU discussion thread up. I would love it if we could have input from you all. Here's a link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-06-samus-shoot-first.390326/.

And yes, it does take Falco 4 minutes to land Dair and meteor someone in SSB4 now.

What's with the meteor warning? Oh, wait. I see. So...are you saying Falco's Dair takes forever to spike or that it's hard to hit with?

Also what's with the smiley? 4 minutes sounds like an eternity in a fighting game.

 

[Ffamran]

What's with the meteor warning? Oh, wait. I see. So...are you saying Falco's Dair takes forever to spike or that it's hard to hit with?

Also what's with the smiley? 4 minutes sounds like an eternity in a fighting game.

I like putting in random quotes from a character's franchise or something that relates to them or maybe not. I've been to the Mega Man, Captain Falcon, and Fox boards for MU introductions and they had something similar to that like "Mega Man, Mega Man, blah blah, blah".

I believe the meteor warning is from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. I think it's the phazon meteor... Man, I really need to finish the Prime trilogy. I looked up Metroid countdowns and saw it and I felt it was appropriate since people complained and still complain about SSB4 Falco's Dair. So, self-deprecation as a Falco main and a cool quote from an awesome franchise?

 

[FlAlex]

I like putting in random quotes from a character's franchise or something that relates to them or maybe not. I've been to the Mega Man, Captain Falcon, and Fox boards for MU introductions and they had something similar to that like "Mega Man, Mega Man, blah blah, blah".

I believe the meteor warning is from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. I think it's the phazon meteor... Man, I really need to finish the Prime trilogy. I looked up Metroid countdowns and saw it and I felt it was appropriate since people complained and still complain about SSB4 Falco's Dair. So, self-deprecation as a Falco main and a cool quote from an awesome franchise?

No wonder I didn't recognize that quote. Hello! I am the samus main who doesn't like Metroid as a series! (any metroidvania really).

For a second I thought you were gloating about Falco's dair. Didn't know I was the only person to hate that move too.

I've been over to that MU thread you introduced. I like you. You humor is appreciative and your info useful. Thanks for including use in that thread.

 

[Ffamran]

No wonder I didn't recognize that quote. Hello! I am the samus main who doesn't like Metroid as a series! (any metroidvania really).

For a second I thought you were gloating about Falco's dair. Didn't know I was the only person to hate that move too.

I've been over to that MU thread you introduced. I like you. You humor is appreciative and your info useful. Thanks for including use in that thread.

Eh, to each their own I suppose. For one, I don't like Marth or Roy, but I like Ike, Lucina, Robin and Chrom. Marth, I don't know why, but I just do not like him even though I learned more about him in Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and how he impacted the world in Awakening. As for Roy, I think it's more of the voice clip inconsistencies where he would sound like a pre-teen in-game, a BAMF for his victory quotes, and a truck horn when he got hit.

Falco's Dair as of SSB4 has the same start up as Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's Dairs. I don't think that's much of a problem, but I never played Falco well or much in Melee and Brawl. Still, Falco's Dair in past games came out at like what? Frame 8? That's insane, especially as a meteor that strong. Either it needed to be like everyone's meteor or it needed to be way weaker as a meteor. Personally, I wouldn't have minded if it was the weakest meteor in the game, but the fastest meteor in the game, but now it's a regular meteor. Still, I wished Falco's air speed was faster... Freaking bird can't move in the air...

Edit: The Prime series is less of a Metroidvania and more of a FPS mixed with exploration, Metroid-stuff, and discovering. So, the combat is much more visceral than in past games, but I never played the past games that much, but I'd like to if Nintendo would release more of them on the eShop and if I owned a Wii U. Oh, and Club Nintendo better be working when I decide to login.

 

[Afro Smash]

Man its so frustrating to play characters that have really low end lag on their moves, it just feels so unfair that you're so punishable whereas theyre able to apply constant pressure at little risk to themselves, Sakurai pls

 

[FlAlex]

Man its so frustrating to play characters that have really low end lag on their moves, it just feels so unfair that you're so punishable whereas theyre able to apply constant pressure at little risk to themselves, Sakurai pls

So...does that mean everyone NOT bowser and Ganon?

 

[Afro Smash]

Even Ganon's got Up Smash and Down Tilt ;-;

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Man its so frustrating to play characters that have really low end lag on their moves, it just feels so unfair that you're so punishable whereas theyre able to apply constant pressure at little risk to themselves, Sakurai pls

That depends on how you play. If you wanna go ham with aerials and landing lag... Then you chose the wrong character, but you knew that already. You chose Samus, knowing full well what you were in for, right? A patient game was always the way to play Samus. Though now we have a bit of leeway since punishing is easier in this game. Parry is applicable for every character, but Samus has the tools to use it very, if not most, effectively with the crazy fast and powerful, yet disgustingly short ranged forward smash, up b, jab, etc. I suggest learning parrying to punish attacks out of shield. While many low landing lag aerials will lag them a bit, if done too high on shield and isn't multi hit, parry forward smash can typically do what you need it do. And I wouldn't say that low landing lag aerials are the best shield pressure. Have we forgotten up b out of shield? That gets people who go in too close. Samus in this game has a fantastic out of shield game, I am glad I stuck by her for this long, and hopefully you can learn to deal with low landing lag aerials better. It is just a part of the game which we have to learn to adapt to just as every other character must (in varying degrees of course, tho we might never have a chance on the aggressor's end of things).

 

[Afro Smash]

Don't worry I know exactly what ive let myself in for by maining samus, thats not gonna stop me complaining about her though. I made that post after facing a G&W on Anthers Ladder, and was just frustrated by how difficult it was to punish him. His fair and bair are disjointed so he doesnt have to put his hurtbox near enough to me for me to punish with Up B OoS, and grab is too slow to catch him as he lands, so jab was basically my only option, and even that didn't work every time (possibly due to lag). The other thing is that shields are so great in this game, which makes grabbing a great option too, but for Samus this is not only slow but incredibly punishable if missed. My opp did a good job of mixing up shielding with short hop air dodges so that grabbing was very risky, especially seeing as g&w has great d throw combos to punish me with. Also I don't think F Smash is crazy fast in the slightest, its fairly fast, but not really fast enough to punish characters with low end lag moves, unless power shielded, and even if you tipper it, the shield push si still small enough to allow an easy punish afterwards. Then more G&w specifiaclly he has the bucket to make Charge Shot risky, and an invicible up b to make it real difficult to beat him off stage, where i usually pick up most of my kills. I lost the set 2-3, and def could of played better, but it was still frustrating.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I can commiserate Afro Smash. The grab end lag is frankly the worst part of Samus if I could pick any part. The grab startup would be the 2nd worst. Or maybe the first. I'm finding the only way to grab against a good reflexes opponent is when they land and to pivot grab, and the best is boost pivot grab in case you miss. Stage control I'm finding critical. Back against the edge, options are really limited. Centre stage you can reach their landings if they go either way and you have room to slide in the grab either way.
I also agree, that while the f-smash is an amazing 10 frames, it often fails to connect out of shield. Only perfect shield, spot dodge works. Whereas an imperfect shield -> ftilt is way safer and more commonly connects.
The fsmash -> cross up roll -> fsmash -> repeat that some characters can simply get away with (yoshi) is almost criminal. The solution is reverse charge shot but I'm not good enough yet to pull this off in clinch.

 

[Hapajin]

The start up to the grab has really been frustrating me lately. I've been getting reads but the startup is so slow, that I'll often miss anyway because they roll or spot dodge a second before it connects. I know I'm kinda making a John, but I honestly feel like having such a slow startup to the grab is an poor trade-off for being a tether grab.

Also, any suggestions for the Greninja matchup? I've been struggling with that one lately.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

The fsmash -> cross up roll -> fsmash -> repeat that some characters can simply get away with (yoshi) is almost criminal. The solution is reverse charge shot but I'm not good enough yet to pull this off in clinch.

Or you can stay in shield and wait for the roll and then jab or whatever is fast enough and can reach. People who roll to cross up shield do so a lot and if you pick up on that, the punishment timing can be a bit tricky, but is totally possible.

The start up to the grab has really been frustrating me lately. I've been getting reads but the startup is so slow, that I'll often miss anyway because they roll or spot dodge a second before it connects. I know I'm kinda making a John, but I honestly feel like having such a slow startup to the grab is an poor trade-off for being a tether grab.

Also, any suggestions for the Greninja matchup? I've been struggling with that one lately.

To compensate for the grabs, either use them earlier (not exactly a viable solution) or dont grab versus those characters.

As for the greninja matchup, I went to the greninja boards to find sparring partners but I have found no luck so far. Sorry. ;P

But I do remember when I was stuck with a janky DS with broken shoulder buttons that uncharged shuriken can really screw us up. If we are hit, a follow up grab is likely. If we try to jump, then that puts us in a situation to get juggled or knocked over to the edge. And this is a problem because it is very hard to come back from the ledge against greninja. I think fully charged shuriken can hit ledge, so we are pressured to get on stage and we have to counter greninja just right in the situation. charged shot and f tilt cover ruunning up approaches from greninja, but they can just run up and shield, but this is where grab is favorable, but the greninja might have used a short hop aerial instead so charged shot or f tilt or even f smash might have been favorable. Maybe they will use mmore shurikens and that can only be countered by shielding, etc. There are a lot of things that greninja can take advantage of. He outspeeds us so hard on ground and in the air, I remember being utterly destroyed in all aspects of play, but that was a long time ago (3 months) and I have grown since then so I am not sure how the matchup truly works out.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm thought I'd go through all characters and list how good/bad the match up, feel free to disagree!

30/70

Late, but can this be explained? Mario definitely has the advantage but I don't see it as that bad for Samus.

 

[Afro Smash]

Late, but can this be explained? Mario definitely has the advantage but I don't see it as that bad for Samus.

All his attacks are fairly lagless, and he's one of the best at approaching with SH aerials, which he finds easy to land on Samus's tall stature, and good spacing can avoid oos punishes. Then theres cape to make sure hes not subject to missile pressure and makes using Charge Shot risky, and finally his Up B seems to have hella priority which makes off stage gimping difficult. Leading with fireballs can force shields which lead to his grab combos too.

Not impossible by any means obviously, I'd say he has a fairly large advantage though

 

[Xygonn]

All his attacks are fairly lagless, and he's one of the best at approaching with SH aerials, which he finds easy to land on Samus's tall stature, and good spacing can avoid oos punishes. Then theres cape to make sure hes not subject to missile pressure and makes using Charge Shot risky, and finally his Up B seems to have hella priority which makes off stage gimping difficult. Leading with fireballs can force shields which lead to his grab combos too.

Not impossible by any means obviously, I'd say he has a fairly large advantage though

I feel like Mario is one of the easier characters to gimp because he has limited options and up b doesn't cover much distance. Got a great zair gimp on a good mario today plus a nice dair kill. Zair is your best friend against mario. Zair>SH Fireball too. Hit that same mario with ~10 dairs on one stock (maybe just lack of MU knowledge). Otherwise he was comboing me like a fiend. Traded sets with him 2-2. Tried to shoot one of his fireballs with a super missile and missed, he caped it and I didn't shield in time for the last kill of one set. Very embarrassing.

 

[HeroMystic]

As long as Mario saves his second jump he shouldn't be getting gimped unless it's from D-air (which is plausible if timed correctly to intercept), and Mario does have the air speed to conserve his second jump until the very last moment when he needs it.

I can see Z-air messing up Mario's short-hop fireball tempo, so mixing up missiles with z-air in your spacing game seems like a good idea.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Samus players, the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread is currently analyzing Samus. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Samus match-up, Samus's discussion period will last until the end of 2/25.

 

[FullMoon]

Hi, Bounty Hunters, we in the Greninja boards are going to discuss the MU for Samus. Any input you guys can give us would be very much appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ke-yoshi-3-2-3-9.369356/page-13#post-18695566

Just make sure you don't lose all your power-ups in the way.

 

[FlAlex]

Just make sure you don't lose all your power-ups in the way.

Low blow.

 

[Locke 06]

Hey Samus mains. The Mega Man boards are discussing the matchup between our characters and would love it if you came over to contribute!

Grapple your way over here. Just... keep your helmet on.

 

[FlAlex]

Just... keep your helmet on.

fine by us. We're far too sexy to be seen with our helmets off (that and we don't want lemon juice in our eyes...)

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Any tips against a good Luigi? I just got bodied 6 or 7 matches against one. His slow fireball approach honestly negates any zair spacing I can throw out, he had me in jab to throw to air combos sending me at 50% in no time, and the only kills I had were from lucky charge shots. There seemed to be no way to approach and no way to effectively defend for long. I'll never underestimate that green guy again.

 

[Hapajin]

Any tips against a good Luigi? I just got bodied 6 or 7 matches against one. His slow fireball approach honestly negates any zair spacing I can throw out, he had me in jab to throw to air combos sending me at 50% in no time, and the only kills I had were from lucky charge shots. There seemed to be no way to approach and no way to effectively defend for long. I'll never underestimate that green guy again.

I can relate to this big time, I have a friend who's a solid Luigi main and I can relate to this so much. Your post perfectly describes my experience, with the fireball approach, throw combos, and my only kills coming from lucky charge shots, haha.

 

[Afro Smash]

Yeah we cant really ever approach in this match up, honestly running away to ensure you always have a CS is completely viable since Luigi is slow and CS will beat his Fireballs, so if you punish him for getting overzealous with the Fireballs he'll usually lay off them making it easier to have a physical confrontation. He's also really slippery so our combos dont work on him for very long whilst he can combo us til we die i think as he can do with p much the whole cast.

A saving grace ive found in this match up is dropping bombs over the ledge can really easily gimp his recovery, since good Luigi's recover low to avoid Green Missile punishes. If the bomb pushes him horizantally at all its usally lights out for him since his up b basically goes purely vertical, or it can leave him in hit stun long enough to not make it back. His down b doesnt sweet spot the ledge either so if they start doing that then you can f smash them as they pop above it, it does have real good priority though.

Overall a tough match up that needs a very defensive playstyle to overcome it.

 

[Varia31]

Any advice on dealing with a good Fox? I tangled with a really good one earlier, and got destroyed. One tactic he used a lot was using his jab to juggle me just enough to use a down-smash on me. He also frequently cut off any landings or zairs I used with his dash attack.

Also, what about Meta Knight? I actually fought one for the first time today. He was tricky because he is a small character, and of course, is much quicker and can hit pretty hard before I have the chance to counter. This was actually the same guy that used Fox, so he also used dash attacks to cover my landings, and because he's so low to the ground, landing a zair is trickier.

Most of the attacks that Fox and Meta Knight can dish out are quicker than most of Samus' moves, so I'm having difficulty trying to counteract them. Couple that with Samus' floatiness and it suddenly becomes tough to make safe landings after being launched. Normally I can use my bombs to throw someone off that's doing that a lot, and I didn't get hit all the time on landing, but this player was clearly more... seasoned. I can hold my own against most of the cast fairly well, but these two are presenting a problem. Any tips would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.

 

[Afro Smash]

Samus is actually one of the few characters that can Up B out of Fox's Jab lock, so take advantage of that (though dont get predictable with it or theyll shield scout it). Up B Oos is good against Nair and Dair approaches, and try to use Jab 1 and F Tilt a lot to keep him out on the ground. I'd say use Zair very sparingly since he's usually quick enough to dash underneath it and punish you. Other than that theres really not much we can do to beat him on stage, he's just to quick and too good at juggling, your aim shuld always be to get him off stage and find some way to punish his recovery since both his side b and Up B are very predictable and punishable. Something I like to do is firing CS to punish Side B recoveries, then after this theyll start pre emptively using their reflector, forcing them to side b low then up b, which can be punished by a Bair.

Don't really have enough experience vs good metaknights to offer any help unfortunately

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Remember that you can tank so much of fox's hits it's ridiculous, and play keep away from all his ko moves rather easily. You can bomb out of his upair range, dodge his upsmash, and generally be unpredictable with your movement. Most of your damage output will come from poking with your bombs, tilts, grabs and throws, and the occasional unexpected cs. It's okay though because you only need to worry about getting Fox to about 80% before you can kill him. I have a replay against a pretty decent Fox that I saved that I'll try uploading later as an example.