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Matchup Discussion: Samus
- Thread starter Calebyte
- Start date
Don't throw fireballs if she has a shot charged. The risk of a trade is NEVER worth it.
If you have problems with her zair I recommend walking [better chance of powershielding] and crouching [goes under zair]. Dash towards her if she's landing but in a neutral position walking is better [not only in this match-up btw], you just have to be patient. Focus on avoiding her projectiles before you try to hit her. Fireball if you see a hole in her camping game to irritate her and use that chance to approach [if you see that she can't punish the lag of your fireball you can dash towards her]. If she doesn't leave herself open smart use of walk, cape, shield and crouch are the best tools to get close to her.
Learning to deal with projetiles is vital. Be patient and do not fish for kills unless you read a spotdodge or a roll. Rack up damage all the way up to 200% if needed - as long as you can deal with her projectiles you should be doing fine. If you play it safe Samus can't kill you and that's what you want to abuse. If you're at high % you can spam shield ... her grab is awful and her so-called KO moves are all grounded and can be shielded. Even at like 180% you shouldn't fear her grab so make use of that.
If you have problems with her zair I recommend walking [better chance of powershielding] and crouching [goes under zair]. Dash towards her if she's landing but in a neutral position walking is better [not only in this match-up btw], you just have to be patient. Focus on avoiding her projectiles before you try to hit her. Fireball if you see a hole in her camping game to irritate her and use that chance to approach [if you see that she can't punish the lag of your fireball you can dash towards her]. If she doesn't leave herself open smart use of walk, cape, shield and crouch are the best tools to get close to her.
Learning to deal with projetiles is vital. Be patient and do not fish for kills unless you read a spotdodge or a roll. Rack up damage all the way up to 200% if needed - as long as you can deal with her projectiles you should be doing fine. If you play it safe Samus can't kill you and that's what you want to abuse. If you're at high % you can spam shield ... her grab is awful and her so-called KO moves are all grounded and can be shielded. Even at like 180% you shouldn't fear her grab so make use of that.
JuxtaposeX
Smash Lord
A fun thing to do here is that you can do here is when Samus shoots a charged shot at you, cape in the opposite direction. Cape's reflection "hitboxes" covers his entire body, even from behind, so that might catch them by surprise. I believe her strongest kill move, other than charged shot, is her dtilt. On another note, I think she has the strongest dtilt in the game, and we have the worst.
I only played Samus once, and that was because they forgot to switch to Zero Suit, so I don't have any match-up experience against her.
I only played Samus once, and that was because they forgot to switch to Zero Suit, so I don't have any match-up experience against her.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
Mario Nair beats out Seeking Missiles, uncharged CS, and probably Super Missiles. Didn't the transcendent hitbox of Nair give a bit more priority from the start? If not, then please ignore my irrelevancy.
Samus's Dair can be dodged by Mario's crouch, unless we FF-Dair to auto-cancel it into something, then you'd have to shield, and your Nair or Usmash becomes a good option. If FF-Dair hits, expect a follow up at near any percent. Screw attack is our best OoS option (if not only good one) to use, and it's begging for punishment if it misses or they SDI the initial hit to escape. Fsmash aimed-up is our strongest KO move, and it can also be evaded by Mario's crouch. Dtilt is quick, and does high knockback, especially for a Dtilt. If it catches Mario by surprise, it should normally KO around 125-135%. Fair on ledgehop is one of our only offensive options off the ledge other than a risky air-dodge > Zair, or FF-Uair. Our highest priority is on our Uair. FF-Uair can lead into Jab, Screw Attack, Fsmash, and to a lesser use, rising Nair. Anything else is pretty much a nifty pseudo. Samus Ftilt is good on close range spacing with mediocre cooldown, and it does more damage and knockback when aimed up or down. It isn't used much. Utilt is best on BF to pressue shields above you, and as an anti-air move when edge-guarding or hitting a jump from the ledge. Samus can take out fireballs with the strong hit of Nair, and i think Zair. Full CS devours Fireballs. I think Mario beats a "Samus on the ledge" because OoS Usmash or Nair can pretty much ruin Samus's ledge options, besides stalling, of course. Speaking of stalling, you can expect us to camp on the ledge a lot when the Fireballs seem to get out of hand. We can wait it out until we see an opening, and ledge hop an Uair (near useless, but it's good to have though) to cancel any incoming Fireballs, and TRY to punish Mario. If he catches us in the ending frames of the Uair, he can punish with an aerial or Smash Attack. If we do a defensive Uair to cancel Fireballs, then go back to the ledge, Mario's only option to punish would be Dash Attack due to the average space necessary to Fireball camp (imo). The game would be back and forth, but Mario has an advantage over Samus in KO power, Projectile outlast, ground options, and close combat. Samus has an advantage in recovery, which spikes an offstage game, spacing, ledge camping, priority(?), and defensive pressuring.
55-45 Mario, at the most, 50-50 at least.
Samus's Dair can be dodged by Mario's crouch, unless we FF-Dair to auto-cancel it into something, then you'd have to shield, and your Nair or Usmash becomes a good option. If FF-Dair hits, expect a follow up at near any percent. Screw attack is our best OoS option (if not only good one) to use, and it's begging for punishment if it misses or they SDI the initial hit to escape. Fsmash aimed-up is our strongest KO move, and it can also be evaded by Mario's crouch. Dtilt is quick, and does high knockback, especially for a Dtilt. If it catches Mario by surprise, it should normally KO around 125-135%. Fair on ledgehop is one of our only offensive options off the ledge other than a risky air-dodge > Zair, or FF-Uair. Our highest priority is on our Uair. FF-Uair can lead into Jab, Screw Attack, Fsmash, and to a lesser use, rising Nair. Anything else is pretty much a nifty pseudo. Samus Ftilt is good on close range spacing with mediocre cooldown, and it does more damage and knockback when aimed up or down. It isn't used much. Utilt is best on BF to pressue shields above you, and as an anti-air move when edge-guarding or hitting a jump from the ledge. Samus can take out fireballs with the strong hit of Nair, and i think Zair. Full CS devours Fireballs. I think Mario beats a "Samus on the ledge" because OoS Usmash or Nair can pretty much ruin Samus's ledge options, besides stalling, of course. Speaking of stalling, you can expect us to camp on the ledge a lot when the Fireballs seem to get out of hand. We can wait it out until we see an opening, and ledge hop an Uair (near useless, but it's good to have though) to cancel any incoming Fireballs, and TRY to punish Mario. If he catches us in the ending frames of the Uair, he can punish with an aerial or Smash Attack. If we do a defensive Uair to cancel Fireballs, then go back to the ledge, Mario's only option to punish would be Dash Attack due to the average space necessary to Fireball camp (imo). The game would be back and forth, but Mario has an advantage over Samus in KO power, Projectile outlast, ground options, and close combat. Samus has an advantage in recovery, which spikes an offstage game, spacing, ledge camping, priority(?), and defensive pressuring.
55-45 Mario, at the most, 50-50 at least.
JuxtaposeX
Smash Lord
What? Mario's NAIR has transcendent priority?
A2ZOMG
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This matchup is SUPER annoying if all they do is run away and make sure that you're never allowed to do safe aerial approaches. Don't jump unnecessarily in this matchup, just because 8/10 times her Z-air will stop it. Her poke and zoning game makes it very difficult to force kills in this matchup.
This entire matchup comes down to waiting for punishable mistakes and grinding it out until an opening occurs at a KO percent. Like Gheb stated, waiting in shield is usually one of your best options in this matchup, which is helped by Samus's poor grab and fairly low grab reward. Just make sure you know how to angle shield. Getting shield poked by a Z-air or F-air is irritating.
When juggling her, D-throw is a poor combo starter on Samus. She's much too heavy and floaty to effectively start juggles from D-throw most of the time. If you can, try to start your juggles with U-tilt. It helps to know that Jab cancel U-tilt is effective on Samus, although actually Jabbing Samus can be slightly iffy, since she'll be spending quite a bit of time in the air.
Generally for kills, you're either going to have to edgeguard her or punish her with U-smash. If you edgeguard her, make sure you have an answer to her tether recovery, either by N-airing her out of that as she reels in, or by hogging the ledge before she can do that.
This entire matchup comes down to waiting for punishable mistakes and grinding it out until an opening occurs at a KO percent. Like Gheb stated, waiting in shield is usually one of your best options in this matchup, which is helped by Samus's poor grab and fairly low grab reward. Just make sure you know how to angle shield. Getting shield poked by a Z-air or F-air is irritating.
When juggling her, D-throw is a poor combo starter on Samus. She's much too heavy and floaty to effectively start juggles from D-throw most of the time. If you can, try to start your juggles with U-tilt. It helps to know that Jab cancel U-tilt is effective on Samus, although actually Jabbing Samus can be slightly iffy, since she'll be spending quite a bit of time in the air.
Generally for kills, you're either going to have to edgeguard her or punish her with U-smash. If you edgeguard her, make sure you have an answer to her tether recovery, either by N-airing her out of that as she reels in, or by hogging the ledge before she can do that.
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
Finally we're talking about this mu. Spacing, Cape & fludd Are keys in this one.
Don't try to fight samus off stage, you'll get spike everytime. if samus plays around off stage
waiting for a spike, use you're fireball spike, if ya good on aiming.
always have a fully charge fludd to pull a full stop to samus's fair. Use cape
to send samus Missiles back @ her, with fireballs.
Don't try to fight samus off stage, you'll get spike everytime. if samus plays around off stage
waiting for a spike, use you're fireball spike, if ya good on aiming.
always have a fully charge fludd to pull a full stop to samus's fair. Use cape
to send samus Missiles back @ her, with fireballs.
mars16
Smash Lord
Also if you end up off stage and she grabs the edge with her tether be prepared for her to raise her self up and... stuff
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
Oh, and you guys can crouch under Zair, but not the tip. And if a Fireball hits an aerial Samus, you guys have a chance to get in, unless we shoot a CS, due to the restriction of Zair use for that aerial period. Missiles of any kind are dealt with easily, they have horrible priority. Samus has near 0 good up close options, so if you can get up close, and stay there, you've got a free stock. Our Dair is good for spiking, setting up aerial chases, and at low to mid%s, setting up a Screw Attack. It's NOT that good of a move, by any means, unless your recovery is utter garbage, and/or you have 0 aerial options. It has very poor priority, and it's priority is normally mistaken by it's disjointed properties. Oh, and Dair > Near anything at low%s is also legit, so expect some follow-up if it manages to hit, somehow...
-Sensei-
Smash Journeyman
I don't have much experience in this MU. I just know the obvious stuff like 'watch out for zair'. I'm pretty sure I've played only 1-2 Samus players and I can agree that this MU is quite annoying, especially getting inside. I'll have to utilize crouching more in this MU. I wasn't aware it was that good against zair. Oh and walking is definitely good in any matchup because you can't trip while you're walking lol.
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
I'll have to say......play an "anit-air" type of game against samus. I hate that zair.
KillerJawz
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Just to note that our strongest kill move is up angled Fsmash. Closely followed by sweetspot bair, then charge shot.
Dtilt is not a move you need to fear in terms of actually killing this MU. Dtilt will be used strictly to outrange and punish your grounded attacks. Our dtilt outranges everything except your fsmash, so seriously, watch out of for it. After a dtilt, always expect either a utilt, uair or some kind of follow up.
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
Thanks for droppin by, killerjawz.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
The camp game is more dependent on the stage. If it has a good amount of platforms, then Mario will be able to platform camp fairly well. If you're on a more flat stage, Mario has a much harder time camping. An advantage to Mario's fireball camping over Samus's camping is that she can't move much while shooting missiles iirc but Mario can move around shooting them. This normally will lead to them spacing zair on you. Zair is really annoying so you will have to get around that. Because of zair ground approaches are nicer. She's pretty easy to combo and really lacks good kill options. As said above, never fight an off stage Samus. Actually just watch out for her spiking you in general. Just bait the spike and recover properly.
Stage wise I'd like some input from the Samus side, but imo I would ban FD because it gives her a lot of space. What stage is a good CP vs. Samus? BF? YI? Lylat? Brinstar?
In Juu's way of describing MUs:
Neutral: Slight adv
Mario CP: Adv.
Samus CP: Even
To put a number on this: 55:45 Mario's advantage.
Stage wise I'd like some input from the Samus side, but imo I would ban FD because it gives her a lot of space. What stage is a good CP vs. Samus? BF? YI? Lylat? Brinstar?
In Juu's way of describing MUs:
Neutral: Slight adv
Mario CP: Adv.
Samus CP: Even
To put a number on this: 55:45 Mario's advantage.
KillerJawz
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Don't go to BF. You are asking to die if you go there. We control the platforms FAR better then you guys do. If you guys shield while your on a platform, say goodbye to a very large portion of your %.
Taking her to CS is the greatest option, but a Samus will more then likely ban this. I suggest that you take it to your own personal preferance. Some Samuses don't like Brinstar, so that is a safe bet. Personally, if a Mario took me to Brinstar, Halberd, Castle Siege or Delfino, I'd be pretty scared.
Going by that way of writing down MUs.
Neutral: Slight Adv for Mario
Mario CP: Adv for Mario
Samus CP: Slight Adv for Samus
55:45 to Mario, maybe 60:40.
Taking her to CS is the greatest option, but a Samus will more then likely ban this. I suggest that you take it to your own personal preferance. Some Samuses don't like Brinstar, so that is a safe bet. Personally, if a Mario took me to Brinstar, Halberd, Castle Siege or Delfino, I'd be pretty scared.
Going by that way of writing down MUs.
Neutral: Slight Adv for Mario
Mario CP: Adv for Mario
Samus CP: Slight Adv for Samus
55:45 to Mario, maybe 60:40.
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
You'll have to play good mindgames when samus has the fully charge shot ready. (Cape)
QFT.
A good samus won't just lackidasically toss out a fully charged power-shot like a scrubby samus would...More than likely, they'll try comboing into it.
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
I know. It's really about being on high alert when samus players have it fully charge.
At times i always counter that attack against genosamus, & he's a beast with her.
Some ppl even say that he's better then xyro.
Calebyte
Smash Lord
GenoSamus is a beast, I remember watching him play BoX7 a while back. So good.
Cape can help a lot in this matchup, but it's not going to help a ton. Samus still outcamps us. Zair is what makes this matchup really aggravating, as it spaced zair completely shuts down our aerial approaches.
I recommend caping super missiles and full charge shots and perfect-shielding homing missles, partial charge shots, and zair. DO NOT jump towards Samus, you are just begging her to zair you a few times.
Approach with SH fireball and walking shield. Once you're inside apply shield pressure with dair and start doing Mario things. (jabs, grabs, utilts, etc).
Cape can help a lot in this matchup, but it's not going to help a ton. Samus still outcamps us. Zair is what makes this matchup really aggravating, as it spaced zair completely shuts down our aerial approaches.
I recommend caping super missiles and full charge shots and perfect-shielding homing missles, partial charge shots, and zair. DO NOT jump towards Samus, you are just begging her to zair you a few times.
Approach with SH fireball and walking shield. Once you're inside apply shield pressure with dair and start doing Mario things. (jabs, grabs, utilts, etc).
Coolwhip
Smash Champion
I'll post some mario vs. samus videos now......
Bo_x7 (mario) vs. Genosamus (samus) round1
Bo_x7 vs. Genosamus round2
Flameleon also have videos against a samus player....
flame vs. dryn round1
flame vs. dryn round2
^theres more rounds of flameleon against dryn's samus, i'm lazy now. LOL
Bo_x7 (mario) vs. Genosamus (samus) round1
Bo_x7 vs. Genosamus round2
Flameleon also have videos against a samus player....
flame vs. dryn round1
flame vs. dryn round2
^theres more rounds of flameleon against dryn's samus, i'm lazy now. LOL
Inferno3044
Smash Master
No BF? Thanks for the heads up. I saw that you said Halberd is a good stage for Mario to take Samus to. Yoshi's has a similar stage set to it so is it a good stage?
Urlon
Smash Rookie
I too was wondering if Yoshis was a good CP.
A2ZOMG
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Nah, Mario controls BF better. Just most Mario players don't understand how good D-air is for platform pressure and stage control. Samus imo is most difficult to deal with on Smashville out of all the neutrals.
Samus's anti-airs are definitely annoying. Nothing new. You're not supposed to jump unnecessarily in this matchup anyway. That is however difficult for several Mario users to cope with.
Speaking of Brinstar, it is Mario's best stage in pretty much every matchup not named MK I should state.
KillerJawz
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That's inaccurate. We control BF better, I won't bother arguing with you on this matter. Smashville is not a good place for Samus on Mario because provided you can shield platform cancel the platform, getting into Samus is a piece of cake. I played a Mario today on every stage and CP just to clarify my thoughts on the matter. He has trouble on BF, mainly because of the priority of our zair and uair. He found it very difficult to approach because we had every single platform covered with something. Mario DESTROYS on CS in this MU. You have no idea how easy it to is for Mario to rush into Samus here. The first section hinders our ledge approach HORRIFICLY, the second one should be obvious as to why we do badly there.
That's correct.
Then go there.
In response to the Yoshi's Island thing. You are welcome to go there. After playing Mario again, it's really just a matter of who feels more comfortable there. The highish ceiling does help Samus a bit here seeing as she dies quicker off the top. A well spaced Usmash from Mario can end us quite easily on Halberd, not so much on Yoshis. Mario will really appreciate that platform though, shield platform cancel it and Samus will be FORCED to either anti air or retreat. You are ALWAYS in the beneficial position here. However, should we get under you on that platform, it becomes the exact opposite. If you feel confident you can control that section of the stage, this match is yours. The ghosts will once again either hinder or help you. If you feel that Samus gimps you too oftenly, this will probably be a safe bet for you. Should you feel you gimp Samus easily, perhaps Halberd is the better option.
A side note here, you guys will want to be careful when you spotdodge. As you probably know, our grab lingers, not like we'll ever use it. But just be careful. Jab's 2nd hit will punish your spotdodges as well so don't always expect a jab cancel into perhaps a ftilt/dtilt. Try keep out of mid range, or more specifically, ftilt range.
I would like to add that GenoSamus's match with that Mario is a typical example of knowing the stage, but not the MU. Take special notice to how Geno controls the platforms. Do not use Dryn's match as an example. That is Wifi.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
**** CS. That is my least favorite stage. If Yoshi's and Halberd are good choices then I'm good stage wise.
Killer, are you saying that Mario is significantly better at stage control?
Killer, are you saying that Mario is significantly better at stage control?
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
If anybody cares or wants to now, Mario has a slight advantage to a decent advantage over Samus. For yalls scales its a 55-45 or 60-40.
A2ZOMG
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Why bother arguing about how Samus can reach all the platforms with her Z-air and stuff? The only time Mario should be on platforms is for high recoveries or for extending juggles. He controls from below the platforms however significantly better than Samus does since his D-air is not just good for land traps, but also is a better shield poke and mixup tool (SH D-air under the low platforms, fullhop D-air under the top platform to give you an idea). Assuming Mario (or anyone for that matter) isn't jumping on the platforms like a moron, what control the opponent has on the platforms is irrelevant unless they are going for juggles, which is the advantage Mario has in controlling BF. Samus's platform game does control a lot of space, but it isn't hugely threatening, as opposed to more or less just being a consistent reminder to never be above her unnecessarily.
The platform on Smashville however benefits Samus's recovery significantly more than it benefits Mario's, and do note that Mario's aerials are practically never KO moves, while Samus does at least have a situational aerial KO move to use. I guess you can say platform shield cancel approaches are okay, but I still would recommend against being above Samus in the first place regardless.
KillerJawz
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No. I'm saying that in this MU, Mario has the tools to control YI better then we do. That's just my outlook on that though, so you can take it with a pinch of salt.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
I took that as "YI is a good stage to take Samus to." I'm good.
KillerJawz
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Fair enough. How do you guys feel about taking Samus to PS2?
Calebyte
Smash Lord
I personally don't feel comfortable taking Samus to PS2. Some of the transformations are fairly neutral, but the wind transformation seems like it would work heavily in Samus' favor, allowing her to mercilessly spam zair and projectiles. Just speculating though, since I don't know from experience. I rarely CP anyone to PS2, honestly.
A2ZOMG
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Take Metaknight to PS2! It's one of few stages he's legitimately worse on.
The wind transformation isn't exactly that great for Samus either. She's REALLY floaty. Jumping on that stage isn't particularly wise unless you have a move that pulls you to the ground.
The electric transformation I would assume is the most annoying one to deal with against Samus if you're not controlling the center.
The wind transformation isn't exactly that great for Samus either. She's REALLY floaty. Jumping on that stage isn't particularly wise unless you have a move that pulls you to the ground.
The electric transformation I would assume is the most annoying one to deal with against Samus if you're not controlling the center.
Inferno3044
Smash Master
PS2 isn't normally legal where I am. EC all day!
KillerJawz
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As Samus I REALLY hate the wind transition. It messes up every kind of spacing option I have. Zair becomes less effective, Missiles become better but the trade off really isn't worth it. We die MUCH earlier off the top here due to our floatyness to the point where it's an absolute joke.
The electrical part is something which I personally have never tried to master. I don't understand how I'm supposed to play this section. I can't approach from the ledge If I get knocked away so I think this could be something to consider in this MU. That's just me personally however, I highly doubt this applies to every Samus.
The electrical part is something which I personally have never tried to master. I don't understand how I'm supposed to play this section. I can't approach from the ledge If I get knocked away so I think this could be something to consider in this MU. That's just me personally however, I highly doubt this applies to every Samus.
A2ZOMG
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Your region is stupid. PS2 is an infinitely superior stage to PS1. By far much less abusive, and more matchup balanced than PS1. The tournament I did attend on the EC however did happen to have PS2 as a legal CP.
And the main reason I say Samus is probably annoying on electric is if she's controlling the center, she can expect to anti-air a lot of approaches, just since approaching on the ground with the treadmills is much more difficult.
I would assume the Ice transformation is technically the most beneficial for Mario as well, at least in terms of opening up new approach options.