Matchup Chart v3 Metaknight Knight Panel

[C.J.]

Maybe I'm crazy, but why are you assuming a blanket stage at all? Why not assume the most likely stage pick for that MU. Easiest example, Olimar:
MK strikes FD and Lylat because of camping/room/pluck ratio. Olimar strikes BF for platform pressure reasons and SV for camping reasons. I'd be amazed if this MU, at top level, starts on SV more than YI:B. I know that Zero agrees with, at the very least, this example and the likely the opinion as a whole.

That being said, the most common stage will likely end up to be SV for most MUs. I disagree with the idea that it should be considered as a blanket in general though. Hell, take 3 posts during the discussion to get how the other character would likely strike and how MK would likely strike. I don't understand why you'd be so willing to have a generalized statement when having it specifically done for the needed MUs is so easy.

Either way, I won't bother about that anymore.

As far as MUs go, MK doesn't have evens, maybe Wario/G&W as +1

 

[TSM ZeRo]

It's like.... I understand that. I know that.

But.....

Look it this way. FD, Lylat and Yoshi's are a counterpick. We're talking about MK in here, not only the stages, don't forget that. BF is a place where MK can easily juggle, and use a ton of amazing shuttle loop tricks. And then there's SV, which is pretty much, the 'less horrible' stage for anyone to play MK in. That's why... we're using SV. It's the most likely (by a very, very high %) stage to be played in game 1. Unless, like I said, there's a specifical thing MK can do that can do better in SV, such as air camping. Which only really affects in SOME match ups, such as IC's and Snake. And they will probably take MK to BF if they want to (which usually happens for the case of IC's).

Anyway. Moving back to the productive stuff:

Maybe I'm crazy, but why are you assuming a blanket stage at all? Why not assume the most likely stage pick for that MU. Easiest example, Olimar:
MK strikes FD and Lylat because of camping/room/pluck ratio. Olimar strikes BF for platform pressure reasons and SV for camping reasons. I'd be amazed if this MU, at top level, starts on SV more than YI:B. I know that Zero agrees with, at the very least, this example and the likely the opinion as a whole.

That being said, the most common stage will likely end up to be SV for most MUs. I disagree with the idea that it should be considered as a blanket in general though. Hell, take 3 posts during the discussion to get how the other character would likely strike and how MK would likely strike. I don't understand why you'd be so willing to have a generalized statement when having it specifically done for the needed MUs is so easy.

Either way, I won't bother about that anymore.

As far as MUs go, MK doesn't have evens, maybe Wario/G&W as +1

Oh yes!! Yes, yes yes... great idea. And yes, you're crazy sweetie.

Is something like this useful?

MK ditto: w/e, let's assume SV
Snake: MK bans FD everytime, and Snake bans Lylat/Yoshi everytime. Then it's up to player's preference BF/SV. Let's assume SV cause of the 'numbers' of times this MU has been played in tournament in this stage.
Lucario: MK bans FD/Yoshi's, Lucario bans Lylat if the player doesn't like it, otherwise it's Lylat, or he picks SV.
Pikachu: MK bans FD and Yoshi's, Pikachu bans Lylat and then it's personal preference. Let's assume SV here.
GW: Mk bans FD and Lylat, and GW bans SV and YI to go to BF.
Ice Climbers: Mk bans FD and YI, IC's ban Yoshi's and SV and the game is played in BF.

 

[C.J.]

MK ditto: w/e, let's assume SV
Snake: MK bans FD everytime, and Snake bans Lylat/Yoshi everytime. Then it's up to player's preference BF/SV. Let's assume SV cause of the 'numbers' of times this MU has been played in tournament in this stage.
Lucario: MK bans FD/Yoshi's, Lucario bans Lylat if the player doesn't like it, otherwise it's Lylat, or he picks SV.
Pikachu: MK bans FD and Yoshi's, Pikachu bans Lylat and then it's personal preference. Let's assume SV here.
GW: Mk bans FD and Lylat, and GW bans SV and YI to go to BF.
Ice Climbers: Mk bans FD and YI, IC's ban LC and SV and the game is played in BF.

^^^

Figure out what other panels are likely to want to change ratios with you (since those are the only discussions) and just ask them now. I mean, it just seems easier/less annoying/more accurate.

Like I said, and as Zero posted partially, SV is still going to happen more often, but why should more often mean always when it's so easy to just... figure it out.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

The MK ditto is a +1 IMO, it's pretty free. I only lose of the other MK is legit better than me.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

^^^

Figure out what other panels are likely to want to change ratios with you (since those are the only discussions) and just ask them now. I mean, it just seems easier/less annoying/more accurate.

Like I said, and as Zero posted partially, SV is still going to happen more often, but why should more often mean always when it's so easy to just... figure it out.

I can do one of each character if you guys find what I posted above is useful.

Just let me know!

 

[C.J.]

The MK ditto is a +1 IMO, it's pretty free. I only lose of the other MK is legit better than me.

I actually smiled at that.

I can do one of each character if you guys find what I posted above is useful.

Just let me know!

No reason to put in effort into characters that aren't going to be discussed.

That being said, I'm sure if you posted your opinions on striking (and reasons why) as its own thread other MKs would love to hear why you strike certain ways.

vOv

 

[Infinitysmash]

I can do one of each character if you guys find what I posted above is useful.

Just let me know!

If you want to put forth the effort to do that I won't stop you

 

[ぱみゅ]

I could make a case for Pikachu's and GnW's examples, then Snake's... But overall it's a solid example.

Anyway, I guess I'll just limit myself to comment the MUs I think need to be changed. Which aren't many, probably because MK was the most analyzed character on the last chart (probably the best known one), and that hasn't changed much since then...

0>+1:

Spoiler

Anti finally shown ESAM how Pikachu gets outranged on the ground, and how the chaingrab is too short to actually make a huge difference. Within APEX stagelist, starters are all grounded and Pikachu doesn't have much room to use his gimmicks, so in supertheory, MK has advantage in G1, Pikachu can CP kind-of-effectively on G2 just to be taken to the ground again for G3.

+2>+1:

Spoiler

Despite what people think, Ness has range. A lot of range.
He does suffer for GR stuff, but he's hard to grab, specially if he knows what he is doing. (and doesn't really let himself to get taken to stages with no platforms).

+2>+1 , +3>+2: and/or +2>+3

Spoiler

These are more of a comparative thing rather than actual changes.

• Lucario and Wario (and maybe Toon Link and Game and Watch) are definetly harder MUs than the other characters in the +2 list, specially if we consider that for whatever reason, MK loses the lead and has to approach instead of sit back and wait for them. Odds are still on MK's side, as losing a lead could be difficult, but the option is still there.
• Even if Peach is changed to +2, MK is still her worst MU, and she still struggles a lot to get in, but from MK's perspective Peach can be pretty hard to kill, as she is pretty good at keeping herself safe
  Spoiler

  which is ironic because Bowser keeps kidnapping her
• As for Dedede, I think the MU needs to be pared with Peach, either an "easy +2", or a "hard +3". MK just counters everything he has when on the air with Tornado, and either gimps us or at least deal a lot of damage when we're offstage. Dedede has range, damaging options, killpower and survability, but MK has safety, juggling, and can nullify the survability with gimps.

There, my input.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I could make a case for Pikachu's and GnW's examples, then Snake's... But overall it's a solid example.

Anyway, I guess I'll just limit myself to comment the MUs I think need to be changed. Which aren't many, probably because MK was the most analyzed character on the last chart (probably the best known one), and that hasn't changed much since then...

0>+1:

Spoiler

Anti finally shown ESAM how Pikachu gets outranged on the ground, and how the chaingrab is too short to actually make a huge difference. Within APEX stagelist, starters are all grounded and Pikachu doesn't have much room to use his gimmicks, so in supertheory, MK has advantage in G1, Pikachu can CP kind-of-effectively on G2 just to be taken to the ground again for G3.

+2>+1:

Spoiler

Despite what people think, Ness has range. A lot of range.
He does suffer for GR stuff, but he's hard to grab, specially if he knows what he is doing. (and doesn't really let himself to get taken to stages with no platforms).

+2>+1 , +3>+2: and/or +2>+3

Spoiler

These are more of a comparative thing rather than actual changes.

• Lucario and Wario (and maybe Toon Link and Game and Watch) are definetly harder MUs than the other characters in the +2 list, specially if we consider that for whatever reason, MK loses the lead and has to approach instead of sit back and wait for them. Odds are still on MK's side, as losing a lead could be difficult, but the option is still there.
• Even if Peach is changed to +2, MK is still her worst MU, and she still struggles a lot to get in, but from MK's perspective Peach can be pretty hard to kill, as she is pretty good at keeping herself safe
  Spoiler

  which is ironic because Bowser keeps kidnapping her
• As for Dedede, I think the MU needs to be pared with Peach, either an "easy +2", or a "hard +3". MK just counters everything he has when on the air with Tornado, and either gimps us or at least deal a lot of damage when we're offstage. Dedede has range, damaging options, killpower and survability, but MK has safety, juggling, and can nullify the survability with gimps.

There, my input.

Pikachu vs MK is even in neutrals. It's just that Anti is super good at Tilting, which is how the MU should be played. Also Pikachu doesn't get gimped. Game 1 is even. Game 2/3's are even as well if Pikachu bans Delfino Plaza.

Ness is definitely +2 MK's favor. Easier than Wario, but harder than Peach. An MK who knows the MU simply facerolls Ness due to pressure, CG setups, and shuttle loop in general. It's in Ness's favor if the MK doesn't know the MU, though... however, it can't be +3 because you can't spam tornado, or anything vs him and win. It's all about spacing.

Wario is +1. The MU is pretty even, and the waft factor is huge in pro level. Makes it even actually if Wario uses his Waft correctly in pro level. However, MK can out-range/camp Wario very good, which gives him the edge a tiny bit in the MU.

Lucario is definitely +2. He's easier than Wario. MK has all the tools to combat Lucario effectively, and counter all of his strategies. However, the Lucario MU is a MU where you have to play knowing exactly what to do, not knowing otherwise, leads to severe consequences.

I'd say Peach is +3 for MK, or an 'easy' +2. It's hard to gauge... She's easier than Lucario, but not by 'that' much. MK shut downs Peach badly, but she can do stuff. But not too much.

DeDeDe is: In D3's favor if the MK doesn't know the MU. +2 if the MK knows what to do. And +3 if the MK knows the match up very well. MK just facerolls D3 if he knows what to do in every situation. Hard to gauge again...

Can we use... '.5' decimals? It'll be so much easier to rate this kind of stuff...

Anyway, I'd say D3 is +3, because he is easier than Lucario and Peach because you can spam tornado vs him SOOOO much. And I've played great D3's, such as Atomsk and Vex.

----

I'll make the rest soon!

 

[AtneyB]

Pikachu MK is not even...

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Quoting a question I made to ESAM a couple of minutes ago:

Me: Esam, is mk vs pikachu in neutrals even?

ESAM: Pika has advantage on BF
Even on SV
MK's advantage on FD

Me: Overall, is the MU even?

ESAM: MK +1 if you play it correctly
Only like...Anti plays it correctly

 

[GOofyGV]

Well ok then I will try to bring some usefull stuff then.

and Zero when I first saw your Avatar I thought for a sacond that you where Otori cuze he has that thing on skype xD

EDIT: could you ask ESAM to explain why Pikachu has an advantage on BF but loses on FD? Or explain it yourself =)

 

[AtneyB]

Well I'm usually not good at all at explaining stuff about matchups or theorycraft but I feel like post something about this particular matchup because I think it's a joke.

On BF, I think Esam says it's on Pika's favor because of the multiple platforms allowing him to camp with B a bit better and to pressure MK on the 2 low platforms and maybe run away with quick attack. The thing is the BF platforms are more advantageous for MK. He can aircamp and make Pika's jolt useless, he can shark as usual, and has some additionnal upB tricks he can implement in his gameplay. Also, it's a pain in the *** to be on a pf as Pika against a MK when MK can just upB or dair oos.

On SV, same ish about the platform plus something else. It's good for Pika because it gives him more options to recover, but it's the case for like every character of this game. Apart from this, it has no relevant function that isn't pf cancel or please enlighten me. On the other hand, in addition of the pf part of BF, MK can pressure way harder et kill earlier thanks to the pf when it's at the bottom of the stage, acting assome support pf, but you alreday know that.

On FD, well, no platform so Pika can't camp as easily. Oddly, I sometimes hear it's the best stage for Pika because he can just spam B. The thing is that Pika's jolt ain't **** for a 6-jump-character like MK. The only situation jolt becomes annoying for MK is when MK tries to camp on the ledge and just eat them. On FD, MK can just abuse of tilts pressure then nado, spaced fair and dsmash, and punish the get in attempts of Pika because they're like all unsafe. That's all he needs to do.

 

[Infinitysmash]

Can we use... '.5' decimals? It'll be so much easier to rate this kind of stuff...

Nope.

10sorryitwasn'tmydecisionandithinkthisscaleisterrible

 

[Cassio]

Well Im going to attempt to establish a little credibility here on the MK MU. Im good friends with and have practice against my regions strongest MK users including tyrant, mike, rich, etc. My most consistent practice is against DEHF, who I believe is the best player at the Pika MU with a large portion of the cast MK included. I'm not a top level player, but i've been capable of taking games from players like zex and tyrant so Im not speaking from inexperience.

I do think that MK could have a +1 on pika, but I do not agree that MK has a singular predictable strategy capable of this. My opinion from watching ESAM's match vs Anti is that it seemed like ESAM was unprepared to deal with anti's poke game and as a result made poor but consistent choices, overall countering ESAM's default rush down tactics. Its not too difficult to see, especially his second stock, his attempts to rush in at poor times and jump jolts in very vulnerable positions led to most of his issues. However if he had more consistent practice against a player such as anti and that particular strategy I think hed find it could eventually be broken down. In my own experience Ive found that anticipating the pokes and countering with grounded jolts, QA, and spaced fsmash push MK to mix up his game so that pokes alone wont keep out pika, but I never saw him effectively counter a spaced ground game in his match vs Anti. On the other hand, it also seems like most MKs do a poor job of exploiting pika offstage and in the air. The only MK Ive seen or played capable of doing this consistently is DEHF, he can do this with several characters actually. Overall I feel this is a MU that could use a lot more development.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Definitely. The issue I see with the match up is the experience in general. The amount of Pikachu's who are a national/international threat is extremely low, so very few people can actually know the MU in a professional level. That's why the level of development of the MU is so low compared to other more polished and developed MU's, such as the Meta Knight ditto, Snake, Olimar and Ice Climbers.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

MK ICs is +1

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Any arguments behind that claim?

I think the MU is even if nothing crazy happens to Nana, and also if the matchup is played in a neutral stage.

 

[iRJi]

Sheik is a + 1 at best. Lol. I won't even go into details about it yet, ill just post videos when I can. I will upload them between this week and next week.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Any arguments behind that claim?

I think the MU is even if nothing crazy happens to Nana, and also if the matchup is played in a neutral stage.

Except MK can do crazy things to Nana, he can separate them well by either Footstool>Dair or poking their sheilds with Nado.

Also, check out the semantics:
if those stages are "Neutral" how is it that ICs (and other bunch of characers) perform better on them?
Not like I disagree, I actually believe ICs beat MK on FD, but the term "neutrals" really bugs me.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Except MK can do crazy things to Nana, he can separate them well by either Footstool>Dair or poking their sheilds with Nado.

Also, check out the semantics:
if those stages are "Neutral" how is it that ICs (and other bunch of characers) perform better on them?
Not like I disagree, I actually believe ICs beat MK on FD, but the term "neutrals" really bugs me.

You forget the fact that you can't really do 'crazy' things vs a top Ice Climbers player, like Vinnie. Footstooling Ice Climbers? Just by being above them means free U-Air damage for them!

It's simple. IC's do well in any stage that does not affect their ground game. Specifically, 'neutrals', such as SV, BF and FD.

Neutrals = APEX 2013's stage list. End of story. That's the competitive standard at the moment. Japan is running tournaments using this ruleset. Most of the USA is running it too. Chile is running too. And I'm sure that Europe is doing it too, but I'm not sure. The point is, that there is majority. We need something, like a majority, or standard, to start a discussion. It's pointless that you want to have a extremely complicated and detailed discussion about 'what a neutral really is'. That's not important and it's also too complicated. Let's keep it simple, and reasonable. Let's keep in mind the current standard for this discussion: Apex rules.

Fd is always going to be banned by MK. And IC's are going to ban Delfino -because of Sharking-, or Frigate because of the Nana glitch. Lylat is never going to be played by either side because there are better options. Frigate and Halberd for MK. And BF and Yoshi's for IC's. That leaves BF/SV games in every set. Speaking from a competitive standpoint, IC's do way better than MK in a neutral, than MK does vs IC's in a neutral. This is because in neutrals you can't shark IC's, which means you must fight them. Which is exactly what IC's want you to do. In counterpicks, like Delfino and Halberd, you can shark them, and keep the pressure, but completely safely. And IC's don't play in Frigate because of the Nana glitch. And IC's own MK in Yoshi's. MK can't camp well there due to the weirdness of the platform's position, and the fact that you can't cancel your shuttle loop consistently there, or land there with tornado safely. You also can't scrooge. This is definitely a good stage for IC's vs MK. IC's don't fear MK in any neutral (except maybe SV cause of scrooging, but it's covered in the Apex 2013 rules, so it doesn't count). MK fears IC's in any neutral. And IC's fear MK in any counterpick. This is why IC's have the advantage over MK in neutrals.

This MU is also heavily influenced by who wins game 1:

If MK wins game 1, it's over for IC's. Meta Knight can literally throw game 2, counterpick game 3 and win. But if MK loses 1 game, it's also over for him. He'll have to beat IC's in a good stage for them twice. Which is extremely hard in pro level...

However, having an advantage does not mean an insta-win. It means that it's easier to win, that's all. But I think it's way harder for IC's to win game 3 in MK's counterpick, than MK winning game 3 in their counterpick. But in both sides it's hard, it's just that in one side is even harder.

Ice Climbers can also comeback in any moment due to the CG. MK also has this factor, due to Nana, and gimps. They destroy each other pretty hard (MK and IC's).

I'd say the MU is +1 for MK due to Tornado pressure. But that's all. IC's can deal with everything else (Except MK's hard counterpicks).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What do you guys think about the Diddy MU? I think it's even

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm done here. I have already posted my input.

FTR, I don't think you are wrong. I even said I agree with your ICs statement, I just told you to re-think when to use the term "neutral". That's it. You got all jumpy for such a small thing.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

What do you guys think about the Diddy MU? I think it's even

+1 cause of off-stage/aerial game. It'd be inhuman to consider a 'perfectly played' MU and qualify it as "even" if Diddy 'Plays correctly and doesn't get gimped'. Diddy always gets sent off-stage at one point. Especially if you're facing a pro level MK player. And if you're off stage vs an MK in pro level, you're dead. No matter what.

Also, if we took this factor of 'Perfectly played MU' as a consideration when rating the match up chart, things would be extremely different. We would have to add perfect powershielding (and everything) to every MU. It'll be impossible to rate. We can only count: Correctly played, as in pro level. Which means correct use of your character's options against your opponent's character.

That's why the MU is +1. Diddy does fine vs MK as long as he doesn't get sent off the stage. This factor gives MK the edge over Diddy, which means an advantage that Diddy can't combat, that means: +1

I'm done here. I have already posted my input.

FTR, I don't think you are wrong. I even said I agree with your ICs statement, I just told you to re-think when to use the term "neutral". That's it. You got all jumpy for such a small thing.

I'm arguing about your post. You only talked about the FD factor which is something we all agree about (You didn't said anything about the rest I said, which why I said it). I told you why and how I use the term 'neutral' in this discussion. Which is precisely, 'starter'. I didn't get jumpy, I'm simply arguing. Maybe it's the internet factor making me seem more aggressive, or 'jumpy' to how I really am. I didn't mean to be or look that way. I apologize if you feel the contrary.

 

[GOofyGV]

I agree with Zero in the IC mu and Diddy mu although I think that because of our counterpicks it could be +1 MK. But getting back at SV I honestly don't think we really play on this vs IC's. We could strike FD and SV and they would probably strike Lylat and Yoshi's I asume? Which means this mu would go to BF.
I honestly think that due to the platforms there MK can have a slight edge. then they can go to SV game 2 ofcourse but after that we have an own strong counterpick if we win game 1.

Diddy is +1 because we can gimp hm pretty easely. But Diddy wins on the ground. We have to get him from the ground in order to win. I am playing the mu to much on "getting an banana" Which leaves me open.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@ Zero, you also have to assume that the MK isn't going to play perfectly and its not easy to gimp diddy

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I agree with Zero in the IC mu and Diddy mu although I think that because of our counterpicks it could be +1 MK. But getting back at SV I honestly don't think we really play on this vs IC's. We could strike FD and SV and they would probably strike Lylat and Yoshi's I asume? Which means this mu would go to BF.
I honestly think that due to the platforms there MK can have a slight edge. then they can go to SV game 2 ofcourse but after that we have an own strong counterpick if we win game 1.

Diddy is +1 because we can gimp hm pretty easely. But Diddy wins on the ground. We have to get him from the ground in order to win. I am playing the mu to much on "getting an banana" Which leaves me open.

IC's strike Lylat and SV. You're forced to play in BF/Yoshi's for game 1. The reason they ban Lylat is because no one likes it (altough it could be good due to the triple platform cancel punishes...) and in Smashville it's easier to air camp them.

@ Zero, you also have to assume that the MK isn't going to play perfectly and its not easy to gimp diddy

That is not truth. MK doesn't have to play 'perfect' to get someone off the stage. Diddy, however, needs to play quite flawless to never get sent off the stage when playing vs a pro level MK.

It takes a grab. An Up b. An aerial. A standard combo. Too many things will send you off the stage. It's not hard.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I wasn't talking about getting thrown offstage, I was talking about getting gimped.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I wasn't talking about getting thrown offstage, I was talking about getting gimped.

And what I'm saying is that if Diddy is off stage at all, he should be gimped if MK plays it correctly. Diddy doesn't have options in that position, while MK has tons of them.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Zero have you seen Nairo vs. Vinnie play?

Top level play right there.
Nairo can wreck nana pretty easily, even on Vinnie.
The problem is that Vinnies Sopo is also super good.

I think it's even or -1 at worst on FD, +1 anywhere else(except frigate or Delfino. Those may could pull off a +2.)



Edit: http://youtu.be/6ohF-r2jZcs

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Zero have you seen Nairo vs. Vinnie play?

Top level play right there.
Nairo can wreck nana pretty easily, even on Vinnie.
The problem is that Vinnies Sopo is also super good.

I think it's even or -1 at worst on FD, +1 anywhere else(except frigate or Delfino. Those may could pull off a +2.)

I've seen it, and played Vinnie in person.

MK wrecks Nana pretty hard. And Nairo is very good at linking attacks. So that's a dangerous combination for IC's.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

And what I'm saying is that if Diddy is off stage at all, he should be gimped if MK plays it correctly. Diddy doesn't have options in that position, while MK has tons of them.

As long as the Diddy saves his second jump or is recovering from above, this shouldn't really be happening.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Double jump get dair'd
Monkey flip get dair'd
Barrel jet pack get dair'd


MK can gimp everyone. Including MK.

 

[Infinitysmash]

Double jump get dair'd
Monkey flip get dair'd
Barrel jet pack get dair'd


MK can gimp everyone. Including MK.

MM my Diddy?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Go to my tourney and I'll MM you for all the entry fee money's.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Recover high

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Recover high

So that you allow Meta Knight to play under his best position? (below his opponent).

 

[Player-4]

Lol not like recovering low is a much better option. Recover smart, read your opponent, and don't be predictable.

 

[bubbaking]

I hate that mentality where everyone thinks MK is their worst MU when it's clearly not.
A lot of DDDs seems to believe that, but I don't hate it as much as I hate Olimar and ICs....

With the Apex ruleset, and Delfino and Halberd allowed, MK is easily harder than Olimar and ICs. If you look at other recent tourneys, such as WHOBO 4, that had RC and Brinstar legal, it gets even worse. Olimar will never be easier than MK. ICs would be harder if you gave them a Japanese stagelist. MK dominates in the very areas of our strengths. No character completely disregards our survivability like MK does. Olimar and the ICs won't be gimping DDD anytime soon. MK, though... We can separate, CG, and/or gimp the ICs from a grab. We can gimp Olimar or punish his landing off of a grab. What do we do to MK off of a grab? Olimar must use more than one move during most of the match to beat us. Same goes for Olimar. Mach Tornado destroys us unless we hard read it or stay the **** away from that character.

Tl;dr - MK is EASILY harder than both Oli and ICs on pretty much every American stagelist.