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Match up time *Snake*

IrisKong

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
1,345
Location
Michigan
As I was saying in the MU board, we need to get things going and try to be an active environment with the new tier list. We now have more motivation than ever to prove that pit is Legit. I am going to try my best to help with MU threads, try to post positive remarks. The way I am doing it is once a week i will post 3 seperate threads for different characters from different tiers. we are starting with a,b,c tier because MK is a tired discussion, first will be Snake, D3 and Tink, please help me out guys!


:Snake: :Snake: :Snake:

Ok, we know snake is the 2nd best character, his broken tilts, along with the fact that he just wont die make him a hard character to beat, but its not impossible!

Pit pros/cons?

Snake pros/cons

Stages to strike/ban?

lets go guys, VICTORY CAN BE OURS!
 

Tetsion

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
330
Pro/Con

I think Pit can hold his own against snake. The problem that come's in is that Snake's priority/range and not to mention power. What I usually do is fight defensively, let Snake come to you. You can grab him out of motor slide you can reflect the grenades he throws at you and stay safe due to mirror shield blocking the blast as well. (don't rely on this a lot) Snake is a char you want to for sure fight from afar and in the air. I don't think pit's should approach him unless it's for a kill. Agitate the snake into coming to you is the best option.

Of coruse with this though if you off by a bit you are in trouble as snake taking the stage is a bad thing, attempting to kill the guy is hard. Also if he's shielding get in some more neutral A's than Smash's I been trying to to get myself to Neutral A when someone blocks or dodges.
I'd say honestly because of broken tilts + projectiles + AT's + Grabs + AND his heavy weight. as broken as a char as he feels.. I think the MU is 50/50 if you get the right options out there.

It should be somewhat obviuos that we should ban places liek battle field and yoshi's island against snake. IMO we should always (for starer stages) go for Final D. Smashville and worst case lylat are the next best thing. If we keep our distance from snake.. we need as big as a stage as possible. Banning stages with extra platforms, because as you are trying to get down. He will motor slide into you or up tilt your butt. Not good, and with yoshi's island the shy guy's can get in the way. Battle field there is TOO much in our way to fight on. He get's us on those platforms he can keep the ground game his.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
I think snake beats pit pretty cleanly on stage. it's probably nearer to even if you edge camp most of the time though.
 

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Y'okey. I don't write matchup summaries too often, even in my own threads, so I thought I'd give it a go. Back in the day when I was still learning the ins and outs of Brawl, one of my common practice partners was a Pit player. I still play him once in a while, and I remember some of the points I pulled from playing the character all the time. So, I'mma reverse those points to suit you, and give you what I think of the matchup.

We know you're going to go for the mini-chain grab at 0%. It's your job to either poke and prod with arrows while we're looking for the grab, or disguise your approach if you're really that eager to get one off on us. I personally recommend that you take the former option, and sit back and rack up percentage with arrows. It's a slow process, but it's digustingly safe and difficult to punish if you know what you're doing. You should be getting most of your percentage from ledge camped arrows. Basically, at low percents, you should be conservative and never give into your greed. Conservative = tons of arrows.

The worst possibly position you can get a Snake in, is in his cypher. Yeah, if you can force us into using that while recovering, you can easily set up your best kill move: bair. Fsmash, unless completely fresh, isn't difficult to DI, and we'll be looking for the aerial kill anyway, since that's where you outclass us.

If and when you get a Snake offstage, watch how he recovers. Does he instantly double jump into cypher, and get up high? Does he try and go for the ledge with his second jump, and use the cypher as a last resort? No matter how he does it, it's punishable. If you catch a Snake recovering high, pressure him with arrows. There's the rare occasion you get a star KO, but you should be doing that to try and scare him into taking the low option. With the low option, you can get more openings for bair kills. The stupidest thing you can do for us while recovering is make us waste our second jump. The most common tactic is to hit Snake with an arrow while he's in the animation, so he'll immediately cypher and put himself in that little dip before going up. At that point, you should get a bit greedy and go for the kill. To summarize, screw us over offstage.

One of the mottos I use when talking about a few matchups (Pit, Tink, Peach) is, "you can't powershield in the air". All that implies is that Snake is in a much better defensive position while chilling on the ground, where he has access to mines, throws, grenades, and his shield. Instead of going against him head on and getting yo' *** ftilted, you NEED to get Snake up in the air. A lucky throw, dash attack, utilt, I don't know what means you have of getting us in the air. Pit is a decent juggler, so once you DO get Snake in the air, go ape****. We have zero options when above somebody.

Ratio? It's in Snake's favor. I think it's a bit worse than 55:45, but not bad enough to be 60:40 (a legit counter). I'm going to go with the safe answer and say it's 55:45 in Snake's favor, if you have an patient and intelligent (especially patient, though) Pit.
 

Lenus Altair

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Messages
518
I agree with Tetsion about keeping the maximum distance possible Vs. Snake. While he is vulnerable to our chaingrab it isn't worth the risk of his scary/busted hitboxes of his ftilt, uptilt, and jab combo, which also deal a great chunk too.

We out camp him and arrows can disrupt his motor sliding. Also, keep in mind his motor shot is a projectile that can be reflected by AR, though that probably wont come up much. Another fun fact is if you grab him out of his up+b and release, he'll fall without being able to recover (much like Pit after being twacked out of WoI). Again, shouldn't come up often as snakes are well aware of this, but if they make a mistake...

Abuse your distjoints if he gets up close with retreating SH Fairs and FH Dairs. The air is your friend.

Also, Wing Renewal and go off stage to gimp the *******. Even with his up B having Super armor, its doable and stronger attack like fair/sweetspot bair will knock him out of it. His ariels to defend himself arn't as threating as ours (I feel).

Planking is... doable in moderation. Wings push the nades away, just don't rely on it.

... I think its pretty close to even. MAYBE a slight lean towards Snake simply becuase of the sheer abusable power/survivability factor he has. He doesn't have anything that wrecks pits game, hes just strong frankly.

50:50 or maybe 55:45 towards snake...

Thats all for now.
 

pitskeyblade

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
1,343
Location
Makin movies makin songs & FIGHTIN ROUND THE W
If I were fighting a Snake, I would definitely ban Lylat because the way the platforms on the stage are set up coupled with the color of the background make it very difficult to see the little traps that Snake likes to set. Snake is a very strong and hard to kill character. Snake and Meta Knight seem to give me the most trouble at tourneys these days. I agree with the spamming of arrow to make him stay away from you. If he feels like throwing out some grenades, cancel them with arrows and if you're lucky they'll go off close enough to Snake that he'll get damaged by them (provided that he doesn't shield or spot dodge). If he pulls out his cypher close to the stage, there's 3 things you can try to do: grab him out of the cypher and just hold him (as was mentioned earlier), try to Dtilt him and spike him, or just stand at the edge and get hit by the cypher, knocking Snake off of it, and creating the same effect as grabbing him. If he does rack you up to 100+ damage, watch out because that is prime Utilt material for Snakes.
 

MysteriousSilver

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
774
Location
Lincoln, NE
Snake wins this matchup in my opinion.

Out ranges you, out powers you, out lives you, and makes camping difficult.

Still, it's not terrible. Jabs are great here, don't underestimate their range if he closes in. Play as defensive as you can in this match, as you can camp him pretty solidly if you keep him pinned down. If you keep your eye on him, you can shoot his 'nades out of the air and make life hard for him when they land at his feet. Make sure you angle arrows down if he starts crawling.

When he closes in, try to stay out of Ftilt range unless you see an opening. Mirror shield can send him flying into bad spots if he pulls out the DACUS, and depending on when it hits, dtilt can knock him out of it and into the air. Actually, Dtilt is a great friend here since it pops him up. Once Snake is above you, he doesn't really have an answer to your Uair. Alternatively, you could wait for him to airdodge, grab him on landing, and toss him back up. Utilt also works for this.

Watchout if you decide to glide back to the stage--Utilt will eat your Glair and if you glide above him you're in the perfect position to take one in the face.

You can play ledge games with Snake rather effectively, but you need to adjust the normal strategy. Too many Uairs will make you explode, 'cause grenades. WoI, however, will push them away from the ledge at a safe distance (and right into Snake if he's staying too close) and set off his proximity mines without hurting you.

Don't airdoge his Fsmash, just jump away and arrow him or something.

AR reflects his mortar, but you already knew that. It's possible to get him trapped in AR right where the mortar comes down so the explosion hits him, too.

CHASE HIM OFF STAGE. Seriously, do it. Wing refresh and give that mofo a Bair in the face. SUPER ARMOR THAT. Don't worry if super armor goes through an Uair or something, remember, you're still doing damage.

That's my two cents.
------------
Question: Why the **** do 'nades clank with an arrow that hits them, but explode when they hit AR? That doesn't seem fair at all.

EDIT: See the counterpick thread for my opinion on counterpicks in this matchup: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258095&page=2
 

Gadiel_VaStar

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,066
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
GadielVaStar
I think everyone summed up the matchup well. If Pit plays defensively, he has a much greater chance of winning. Try to incorporate some WoI fairs/bairs for spacing. A KO strategy that I like to use is a shorthop close to his utilt range. Then, when I feel like he'll go for a u-tilt, I'll unleash Wol to outspace him and hit w/ a bair/fair which send him in a bad position if not KOing.

-Notes
*Keep your smashes to a minimum because snake can punish HARD if he shields them or you miss. Use them when he's in a disadvantaged situation(air, missed tech).

*D-tilt spacing seems to work well, and discourages approaching.

*Reflet nades if possible.

*Be conscious of where he places C4 and land mines.

*Plank Hard @ high %s. One tilt or aerial is all he needs for the KO, so play safely.
 

Tetsion

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
330
That's good to keep in mind, instead of smashing we should build up % more with other attacks than smashes.

Surprisingly ALL of his smash's are decent. Has anyone tried up smash canceling while running? It can be good to get in on snake, just for snake if you are up close go for grabs, neutral A A A +, AR, Etc.. you can block most of his attacks with mirror shield the only thing is the grab.
 

Nitrix

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
867
Location
London, Ontario
Arrows are important, they make him drop his grenades which is fantastic since it sets him off balance. Pit has to be careful to avoid the F-Tilt and just be aware of the mine/C4 situation.

Just never let the Snake get into his game.
 

IrisKong

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
1,345
Location
Michigan
My room mate plays snake so I always get lots of MU experience against him.

The best way to fight snake is far away UNTIL YOU HAVE A GOOD LEAD (this is probably rare but still), We can overwelm him on stages with platforms using air game. WoI stalls into fairs and such are great way of baiting tilts. Capitalize on any mistake he makes ( a wiffed tilt most commonly) and pop him into the air. Snake HATES the air, and will take a ton of damage from us when hes up there. Throw him/knock him off the stage, unless he is already high up in the air, you will probably get at least 2 airals in when he is trying to cypher recover.
Snake has broken tilts and can kill us early (we all know this) but other things to watch out for.
Nair hurts, DI that ****. His grenades kill and he can stop them in mid air, so dont spam reflectors to try and stop them like an idiot, he will just make them land in front of you. Snake will try to Dthrow tech chase chaing grab us, dont be predictable with your get up tactics.

This MU is obviously in snakes favor (hes the 2nd best in the game for a reason.) but its a close matchup if you play it smart. 55-45 snake. Ban Halberd, take him to whatever stage isnt banned that makes him jump around the most.
 

link2702

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
2,778
camping is one of pits best strats here, use your arrows any and every time you get a chance, as it will force snake to approach you, trying to approach him is almost always a death wish, make him come to you.

your arrows , like someone else said, are great for screwing up his nade game, and snake gets very screwed over without his nades, though just remember, be prepared when he gets close, as his tilts still have a WTF Retardedly broken range, speed, and power.

when snake is near you, try to get him in the air, he ***** pit bad up close on the ground, but his aerial game is a joke, and get him offf the ledge and you can go for some pretty good kills.

also, one thing EVERY player needs to know about snake, regardless of whether its pit, or not, when snake is using his Up B, if he's close enough for you to grab him near the edge, GO FOR IT, but DON'T PUMMEL him, OR throw him at all, wait for him to break away from your grab, its a tiny glitch that works on both snake and sonic if i remember, they can't use the up b again unless you actually did some damage to em or they touch the ground, since you are holding em over the ledge, where they aren't actually touching ground, and you haven't did any damage to em, the game still considers them in free fall mode, so unless he can bring out a c4 in time and bomb himself back up, he's pretty much dead. only characters this can't work with are ones that have tether grabs like link and samus that i know of.


oh...and btw, did i mention you should camp with your arrows?


no joke on this folks, forget the arrow loops/fancy trix, go all out camping with normal arrows on him, this is coming from someone who has alot of experiance fighting snake. back when i tried to convince myself that arrow looping was acutally useful.....each and every snake i'd face slaughtered me, second i stopped with the arrrow looping gimmick, and started camping my *** off on em with arrows, suddenly my most hated match became one of my favorites, i don't have nearly as much trouble with snake anymore, i know there are some pits who still refuse to believe that pit NEEDS to camp with arrows like mad in certain matchups, but honestly people, he does, watch the japanese pit mains, they camp like mad, and they tend to do a HELL of alot better with pit in tourny placings then we do, get out of the mindset of "pit doesn't need to camp to win, SEEE!" because folks...he honestly does, I've never met a falco main that didn't camp there *** off, why? because they realise he has an amazing projectile, pit mains need to realise this about his arrows, quit with the arrow loop gimmicks people
 

Katana_koden

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
609
Location
Some Where In Metro Atlanta
It's at least 50:50 with smart pits.

Abuse his shielding
- charge arrows
- switch directions charging arrows
- WoI fair spacing
- Just about guaranteed Nair when shield is mid - high in strength.
-He shields his grenades =_=

Range Camping Overpower
- Drops a Nade before tossing, shoot the Nade
- Pops a Nade in the air towards you, Ground WOI it and it bounces back
- Tosses a nade regular, Shoot at the point he releases the Nade to make it bounce back.

Damage Control
- In air we are beast
- If he drops a grenade while uair-ing, it stales and knock back shouldn't be a problem, damage racking his 24- 30%+ to our 12% and lower only.
-Dthrow punishing aerial dodges with another Dthrow or uair if he thinks about jumping away.

Those are a few advantages we have on snake.

There is no way we should have a lower match-up. Its at LEAST 50:50
 
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