Match-Up Export #6: Ice Climbers

[Conviction]

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Ice Climbers​

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Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

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ICE CLIMBERS

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/YenoHyena/foxboards/gaga-******.png​

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Ice Climbers Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Ice Climbers Bans
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Ice Climbers Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

Videos

Verdict
XX:XX ​

 

[Prawn]

Alright so, Solo Popo can CG Fox till a ridiculous percent(70 or 80 I believe), and even after that he's a pretty easy character to Alt Grab, he also dies pretty fast.

To the best of my knowledge Fox has no reliable moves to avoid getting grabbed, EVEN against one climber, at a percent lower then 40-50ish, dthrow CG -> grab release on edge -> well placed ice block = GG for fox. And with bungie-jumping you can gimp fox soooo easily with 2 climbers.

This is really a pretty bad matchup for Fox :/

That being said, it's winnable. Moon-doggie beat me in a tournament once. I'd say 70-30.

Ban FD against ICs, you'll get ***** there. This is all pretty basic but I'm just making claims to see if they can be refuted, and no one has even posted yet so, yeah.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, your post sounds completely reasonable, and the ICs are one of Fox's worst matchups, so I doubt there'll be much things opposing your thoughts. x3

 

[Zhamy]

Uh, yeah. Fox can't space very well against ICs, and that means Fox gets owned. Sorry, guys, ICs **** Fox.

70:30.

 

[Prawn]

If you want to pick up a secondary I'd recommend Snake, Peach, or Wario if you don't just wanna CP ICs with ICs. That being said you need to be pretty **** good with those characters to have a good chance.

 

[Jenkins]

If you want to pick up a secondary I'd recommend Snake, Peach, or Wario if you don't just wanna CP ICs with ICs. That being said you need to be pretty **** good with those characters to have a good chance.

..........or DK.

right, prawn? *wink* *wink*

 

[momochuu]

Fox gets beat pretty soundly in this matchup. The only thing that they have to change up from their normal game is desynched Blizzards/Ice Blocks because of Fox's reflector. Other than that, the matchup is extremely easy. It might not be as bad if a single Ice Climber couldn't chaingrab him to 70% alone.


He has almost no separating attacks, so gimping Nana will be much harder than normal. They also have the same grab release kill as they do on Falco. Definitely does not help Fox's cause.


This matchup is pretty much them getting revenge from Melee. 70:30 easily.

 

[Toronto Joe]

im good at this matchup for some reason, offensive firefox is useful in this as a little wtf fact

 

[theunabletable]

^I'd bet anything that ICs pivot grab goes through Firefox. And since it's telegraphed from a mile away it wouldn't even be hard to do so.

 

[Firestormzero0]

i totally bet sign of madness is right. Cuz i do it. :D

 

[Zeton]

If IC tries to jump back on stage together and fox dairs them, and they try to Up-B, they don't do their tether sync and just fall.


Test it if you think I'm wrong.


it works if they try up-B right after fox Dairs. The reason for it is that IC syncing is destroyed when they are hit by the hit stun of Dair. and Nana, well...is just stupid.

 

[Prawn]

If IC tries to jump back on stage together and fox dairs them, and they try to Up-B, they don't do their tether sync and just fall.


Test it if you think I'm wrong.


it works if they try up-B right after fox Dairs. The reason for it is that IC syncing is destroyed when they are hit by the hit stun of Dair. and Nana, well...is just stupid.

Good thing IC players hardly ever use their Up+B unless it's absolutely necessary? We'll just DJ Side+B past you.

 

[Teh Future]

lol this matchup is not 70-30.

Fox doesn't have to approach.

 

[Prawn]

So what's your new gamebreaking AT on killing ICs with lasers?

 

[DanGR]

I'd just like to add that the ICs can pivotgrab every attack in Fox's arsenal. He doesn't have any attacks that can be spaced outside of their pivotgrab range.

^I'd bet anything that ICs pivot grab goes through Firefox. And since it's telegraphed from a mile away it wouldn't even be hard to do so.

If they can pivotgrab MK out of his drill rush, I'm pretty sure they can pivotgrab Fox out of Firefox as well.

 

[Smoom77]

If IC tries to jump back on stage together and fox dairs them, and they try to Up-B, they don't do their tether sync and just fall.


Test it if you think I'm wrong.


it works if they try up-B right after fox Dairs. The reason for it is that IC syncing is destroyed when they are hit by the hit stun of Dair. and Nana, well...is just stupid.

ICs have a general knowledge to NOT immediately Up-B because often both of them are in a falling state/not synced so we jump or airdodge to sync back up.

 

[Zephil]

If they can pivotgrab MK out of his drill rush, I'm pretty sure they can pivotgrab Fox out of Firefox as well.

thats interesting to know, has somebody really tested it?

 

[Toronto Joe]

im not saying firefox into them, upclose if there in their bubble and you firefox you'll burn the **** out of their sheild and then blast off after

 

[theunabletable]

thats interesting to know, has somebody really tested it?

I've never had a chance to test it on Firefox, but then again I've never played a Fox who would Firefox when I could probably pivot grab it. Considering ICs can pivot grab MK out of his freaken tornado, I bet they can pivot grab Fox out of Firefox.

Although I guess I might as well test it in a moment.
EDIT: Yes ICs can most definitely pivot grab Fox out of Firefox.

 

[Adamated]

I can see how terrible this matchup is for fox. I'd say definitely around 70-30 because of the 50% popo chain. But, with fox's camping ability, speed, upsmash and reflector it makes it better, but in no way easier. i'm assuming that trying to Nair over and over is the only plausible thing to stay ungrabbed longer and then rely on your reflector until some random opening occurs and you can stay away from pivotgrab (lol)

Also, I tested the popo only cg, and I could only CG till 48 from 0%. Am I missing something or did we just assume that 70% was right? So maybe a little better than thought, maybe 65:35?

So in a summary,

IC's Advantages:
-Pivotgrab all of Foxes moves (does this include F-tilt?)
-Popo CG to 50%
-Relatively easy to CG with Nana (I'm not 100% on this cuz i know every character has a different timing)
-Blizzard owns Illusion
-Ice Block owns Firefox
-Grab = Stock Loss (duh)

Fox advantages:
-Laser out-ranges IC's
-Reflector limits Blizzard and Ice Block
-Up Smash Kills at approx 104% With Proper DI 89% without any DI

Ice Climbers 65:35 Fox

 

[DanGR]

Also, I tested the popo only cg, and I could only CG till 48 from 0%. Am I missing something or did we just assume that 70% was right?

Are you sure you're buffering the dash grab correctly? If not, you'll be able to chaingrab to much higher percents. I do recall chaingrabbing the spacies to much higher percents that 50%.

IC's Advantages:
-Pivotgrab all of Foxes moves (does this include F-tilt?) Yes, but I doubt that situation will come up very often.
-Popo CG to 50%
-Relatively easy to CG with Nana (I'm not 100% on this cuz i know every character has a different timing) I'd say he's one of the easier characters to chaingrab. The light weights usually aren't very difficult if their name isn't Jigglypuff.
-Blizzard owns Illusion
-Ice Block owns Firefox
-Grab = Stock Loss (duh)

 

[Adamated]

I only said F-tilt just to know if possibly had some move that worked haha.

Umm, no im not sure if I buffered correctly but it still didnt seem like it would, I'd like to see some evidence before I take that to heart.

 

[DanGR]

In the same way Pikachu chaingrabs fox (it looks as if he's clearly out of Pika's grab range, but gets pulled down anyways), Popo chaingrabs Fox, but across the stage. If you don't buffer the dash grab they'll jump out at that point.

 

[Fenrir VII]

To clarify a few points:

Zeton's statement was correct, and would generally come into play in one particular situation.. As you are Forward B-ing up, if we are able to land a dair (not as hard as it sounds), you guys are screwed...

TO Joe mentioned Firefox, not as an approach tool, but attacking a shield with the startup. Surprisingly effective... don't know that I would use it in the match that much, but he wasn't saying just blast at you and hope you miss a grab/shield/whatever


I was under the impression that the solo IC CG on Fox only went to 50... and I had personally gotten out of it around there before. *shrug* I'll admit I don't know too much about that, but I didn't think it went nearly as high as 70

Fox can completely outspace the climbers with one move, Bair. Now, it takes ridiculous skill and patience to space bair well all day, but it is safe on shield, and pretty much acts as a wall to stop the climbers.

Fox also has a fairly decent time attacking behind the ICs

but pretty much everything else is a wrong choice.


Guys, I seriously think this is Fox hardest matchup. I could see how Shiek would be arguably harder, but I give it to ICs...

 

[Zhamy]

Fox can completely outspace the climbers with one move, Bair. Now, it takes ridiculous skill and patience to space bair well all day, but it is safe on shield, and pretty much acts as a wall to stop the climbers.

And this still gets beat by a good desynced blizzard, unfortunately. But if you can get it. SH Bair is probably your best option...which isn't saying much.

Fox also has a fairly decent time attacking behind the ICs

Just don't get Dsmashed. It's not as good as it was in Melee, but still definitely a threat.

 

[Fenrir VII]

And this still gets beat by a good desynced blizzard, unfortunately. But if you can get it. SH Bair is probably your best option...which isn't saying much.



Just don't get Dsmashed. It's not as good as it was in Melee, but still definitely a threat.

Both true.

blizzard is one of the IC's least safe options, imo, due to Fox's Fall speed. Generally, it's pretty easy to jump over to attack the back of shield.

And yes Dsmash is a threat to watch out for... but behind a shield is pretty much your best bet in the match.

I still don't think it's unwinnable, but the matchup is stupid hard.

 

[GUARD]

Ice Climbers are the LAST (literally) characters I want to face.

first of all.........if you suck with Ice Climbers.......then you can only solo chaingrab to like 50%........but I faced Swordgard..............and for those of you that know him....he's really good....... he WILL (no joke) solo chaingrab Fox till 87%.......and you CAN NOT do a thing about it.

Fox can find ways and tactics for Marth's, MK's, even Zero Suit Samus........BUT HELL NOT ICE CLIMBERS.

ps:......pikachew is a ***** with chaingrabs but he's a character that you CAN definetly avoid any grabs................and Shiek is NOT that anoying AT ALL...........'F-Tilts' may be a *****.........but you can ALLWAYS DI the beginning of the 'F-Tilt' combo. I seriously disagree of the fact that Shiek has the upper hand on Fox.

 

[Adamated]

I agree. , but this thread doesnt seem to be going any where, so I say that we focus on individual things like "the best way to avoid a grab" or if you manage to desync them, what should you do to kill nana faster?

Personaly, i think shining nana is the best way to go (if at lower %'s) simply because she cannot recover on her own. But fsmashes and dsmashes are a good way to catch her shield lag.

What do you all think?

 

[TKD]

Run away and shoot lasers (short-hopped singles of course). Jump on platforms. Punish stuff. They're a bit too slow to chase you. Poking at their shield is OK if you watch out for spot-dodging. Finally, land at their back with your aerials if you're going to nair or dair. They can't punish that if you utilt after landing.

About KOing nana, she'll just die when they're desynched from an usmash (she doesn't DI, remember?). Maybe you can also JC shine her to the ledge, but I don't focus much on a separated CPU climber as you can just run away and shoot even if they're synched.

I finally played the match-up recently a bit, and I think it's much easier than we thought. This makes me feel motivated about playing against Sheik too.

 

[Storm_Fox]

Is there any practical way to approach?

To seperate I try to D-Air into shine or D-smash but it only takes you so far

 

[Fenrir VII]

There's not a terrific way to approach... Dair is way too risky. you have to space it behind a shield every time, and even then, it's risky (hello pivot grab)

I seriously think the best way to play this match is camp out the opponent, make them approach (you can), then watch their approach. If they come with Blizzard, get in the air, and you can Dair, bair the back of their shield, or if you're a bit late, just go to the other side of the stage and reset.

If they approach with shields, and just normal approaches, you can form a SH Bair utilt wall that makes it incredibly difficult to grab you..

Normally, ICs kind of play a zoned area game, where they hold an area of stage stage and force other chars to maneuver around them.

I think Fox's best chance in this match is to reverse this... hold your area as best as possible... punish blizzard, reset spacing pretty often, and don't go for ANYTHING that isn't safe...

Honestly, Fox has tools to effectively zone shields... it's just hard to maintain this in the match, so approaching is exceedingly difficult. I'm just glad Fox has a laser.

Grabs are actually surprisingly ok in the match, albeit very risky. PWG is probably your best option here, then just use dthrow or fthrow to hit the other IC immediately, and you're safe... I can't really recommend it highly, but there are situations where you just need to grab.

idk, with very good Fox play (and assuming very good IC play as always), I see this match levelling around 7-3ish, actually... because I can see Fox making it very hard for ICs to land grabs, and being pretty effective using Bair and such to eventually hit nana, then capitalize.

Sheik is easily the harder match for Fox (changing my statement from before), but I believe Pika is sliiiightly easier than this (also levelling near 7-3 in my mind)

 

[Jar.]

Is there any practical way to approach?

To seperate I try to D-Air into shine or D-smash but it only takes you so far

Not really. Unfortunately. If you approach with grab, you get grabbed. Approach with falling dair, you get shielded then grabbed. Falling nair? Shield -> grab. See where this is going? Really, all we can do is shoot lasers and run away...

 

[Conviction]

Boost Pivot Grab. Cross-ups. Bair. Spaced Nairs.

 

[Rizk18]

^ It's still not enough to help this MU. 70-30 if not then 65-35.

 

[M@v]

ahhhhhhh the neccrrrrroooooooooo T_T

Anyway this one isn't fun. Go Mk or someone that has tons of aerial mobility and/or has ridiculously ranged moves




so

 

[Conviction]

-____ I know the MUs bad but I answered his question. So what was the point of telling me that?

 

[Elite Cowdung]

this is just like pikachu. if both ppl are the top skill then fox just gets owned

 

[TKD]

Stadium. Stadium2. Battlefield.
Ban FD, or switch from Fox if someone takes you there.

You have to blaster IC all day. They're slow, so they can't chase you at Stadiums nor Battlefield. Fox is so fast that you can sneak unseen approaches if you want. If you'll space bair, I think you need to actually land it. I don't know if there's time to buffer roll out, but I've been dash grabbed because of whiffing laggy moves like that one (eg sheik's bair).

 

[knuckles213]

couldn't you possible out grab the ICs with Back throw while play a patience waiting game cause the first thing the ICs want is a juicy chain grab, but in order to get the grab they have to get in REAL close and fox's grab box is larger and faster than the ICs.

 

[TKD]

i agree. that's another surprise you could use, and it's useful. i guess you have to buffer roll/shine if they spotdodge it. if there's a chance to boost pivot grab, that'll mess them up too.
oh yeah you have to shinehop vs the ice blocks, but don't actually hit them with the shine, just reflect them. if you hit them, they're not reflected (and you're dead).