Match-Up Export #4: Falco | Complete!!

[Conviction]

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Falco​

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Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

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FALCO LOMBARDI

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary
This is a technical MU defiantly but is even. Reflecting lasers in the with colors of star wars blasters is something to see in this MU. Focus putting him offstage and catching him to kill him with a Usmash at 100%

IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game: Fox should have the advantage here. Dair leads to an Utilt juggle which stacks up damage quickly, Dair can also lead to an Usmash kill. Nair and aerial shine can also set-up for kill easily. Fair can also link together very easily. Falco's aerial game is pretty much laser, Bair and Bair. Bair is nothing short of a great move against Fox though, so you should probably see it used as a frequent gtfo move. Nair has almost no use, as Fox outranges him easily.
Overall about even, Fox can't really score his skills in the air though, as his Bair is nullified by Falco's Bair, and his Uair is a no-go against Falco's strong downward hitbox. Falco uses this place as a gtfo and Fox to set-up strings.
Ground Game: Falco has quite a good ground game, complimented by his grab game. Falco has a 2frame jab, same speed as Fox. I think Fox's double jab actually combo's into stuff (at least that's what I can recall), well Falco works mainly with his first jab, or full combo. Falco's full combo shortest cancel leaves both players with 0 frame advantage, so watch out for jab combo > jab.
Tilts. Falco's tilts are nothing short of amazing, his Dtilt is a nice shield poker, his Ftilt gets us a guarenteed laserlock from 70-100% if you don't tech it, and Utilt has great follow-ups. Fox's tilts are quite good too, but don't quite serve their purpose against Falco. Ftilt is a no-go as Fox wants to keep pressure going, and Dtilt I really don't know, I never seen it used x.X. Utilt is like THE SEX though, give some chase to his DI and you'll net yourself an easy 40-50%, though it's unsafe without a decent set-up. Smashes, in this category Falco is... lackluster. Your Usmash is Falco's Usmash on steroids, your Dsmash is Falco's Dsmash on steroids. Your Fsmash serves more purpose then Falco's Fsmash, but Falco can score a really early kill if he mindgames you into his Fsmash.
Grabs, this is where Falco shines (lolololol), you can expect to get chaingrabbed alot, and Falco has a semi standing chaingrab, so as soon as you're grabbed he can go everywhere with you. His Dthrow is also a nice setup for other moves. Falco's Bthrow is pretty much suck, but it looks nice after a BPG. Falco's Fthrow will often be used as a gtfo throw. Uthrow is NEVER USED. Fox's throws are quite the same, except for the chaingrab. And Uthrow (maybe)
Overall this can be seen as slightly in favor for Fox, the ground is where he likes to be. He has more killing potential on the ground then Falco, even though Falco has to be on the ground to kill too, this brings Falco at a disadvantage. Both spacies have a good way to rack damage on the ground (chaingrab and utilt chains). Falco outranges Fox on the ground though, so you should approach with care.
Approach: In this approach Falco is the one to approach.
Defense: Force Falco to approach due to you out camping him.
Camping Game: Reflect his laser and follow with your laser which send his stunning laser and three of Fox lasers since you are able to jump cancel the shine after it being hit with a projectile.
Edge Game: Fox wins here Falco is easier to gimp, you can just easily Dair him offstage and he is dead.
Surviving: Falco has more trouble surviving, he get's shine gimped, fair gimped, everything-gimped. Fox's smashes aren't something to ignore neither, Nair combo's into Usmash, and Falco get's killed by Usmash as soon as 100%. Fox dies around 120% by Falco's Usmash. While Fox has an amazing hyphen, Falco has a DACUS. Falco's Usmash is less safe on shield though, as in not safe at all. Fox is definetely safer in killing on the ground. In the air Fox has more killing power, but Falco outranges him. Fox wins here as he kills Falco way to early. Also, CG-spike is not guarenteed on Fox if he DIs down and away.
Killing: (see above)
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Falco Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Falco Bans
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Falco Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

Videos

Verdict
50:50 ​

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Aerial Game:
Fox should have the advantage here. Dair leads to an Utilt juggle which stacks up damage quickly, Dair can also lead to an Usmash kill. Nair and aerial shine can also set-up for kill easily. Fair can also link together very easily. Falco's aerial game is pretty much laser, Bair and Bair. Bair is nothing short of a great move against Fox though, so you should probably see it used as a frequent gtfo move. Nair has almost no use, as Fox outranges him easily.
Overall about even, Fox can't really score his skills in the air though, as his Bair is nullified by Falco's Bair, and his Uair is a no-go against Falco's strong downward hitbox. Falco uses this place as a gtfo and Fox to set-up strings.
Ground Game:
Falco has quite a good ground game, complimented by his grab game. Falco has a 2frame jab, same speed as Fox. I think Fox's double jab actually combo's into stuff (at least that's what I can recall), well Falco works mainly with his first jab, or full combo. Falco's full combo shortest cancel leaves both players with 0 frame advantage, so watch out for jab combo > jab.
Tilts. Falco's tilts are nothing short of amazing, his Dtilt is a nice shield poker, his Ftilt gets us a guarenteed laserlock from 70-100% if you don't tech it, and Utilt has great follow-ups. Fox's tilts are quite good too, but don't quite serve their purpose against Falco. Ftilt is a no-go as Fox wants to keep pressure going, and Dtilt I really don't know, I never seen it used x.X. Utilt is like THE SEX though, give some chase to his DI and you'll net yourself an easy 40-50%, though it's unsafe without a decent set-up. Smashes, in this category Falco is... lackluster. Your Usmash is Falco's Usmash on steroids, your Dsmash is Falco's Dsmash on steroids. Your Fsmash serves more purpose then Falco's Fsmash, but Falco can score a really early kill if he mindgames you into his Fsmash.
Grabs, this is where Falco shines (lolololol), you can expect to get chaingrabbed alot, and Falco has a semi standing chaingrab, so as soon as you're grabbed he can go everywhere with you. His Dthrow is also a nice setup for other moves. Falco's Bthrow is pretty much suck, but it looks nice after a BPG. Falco's Fthrow will often be used as a gtfo throw. Uthrow is NEVER USED. Fox's throws are quite the same, except for the chaingrab. And Uthrow (maybe)
Overall this can be seen as slightly in favor for Fox, the ground is where he likes to be. He has more killing potential on the ground then Falco, even though Falco has to be on the ground to kill too, this brings Falco at a disadvantage. Both spacies have a good way to rack damage on the ground (chaingrab and utilt chains). Falco outranges Fox on the ground though, so you should approach with care.
Approach:
In this approach Fox is the one to approach. Fox's job is hard because there will be a constant stream of lasers from Falco's side, and as soon as Fox stands still to shoot some, he gets stunned. Falco's lasers flinch, Fox got the bad end of the stick here.
Fox's approach can and should be mixed up. When you have a chance to reflect a laser at a SAFE DISTANCE do so, but it won't hit Falco as he is airbourne before the laser comes back. If you do it too close you will get punished. Approaching in the air must be done from the correct angle, because if you get hit by Falco's upper laser (in his shdl) it will drag you to the ground via flinching. Approaching by ground is hard if Falco knows how to use his range advantage. Overall you should try to avoid being knocked too far away that you're forced to approach. Illusion is not valid as lasers stop it easily.
Defense:
Fox should go in and wreak havoc, but with care. Everything Falco has is punishable by powershielding, all his aerials are shieldgrab-able, and most of his ground moves too. I know that Falco uses his lasers and phantasm in the defense to run away like a chicken. Falco often uses jab and Ftilt to get you away, and an occasional throw. Don't try to spotdodge if you know he's going for the grab, except if he's dashing. A good Falco occasionally jabs first and if you spotdodge the jab you ARE going to get grabbed.
Fox shouldn't really act defensive, but stay sharp for attacks when approaching and stringing.
Camping Game:
Falco is really made to camp the camper, and everyone else. Falco is (arguably) the best camper in the game. He has a reflector that extends far past his body, when baited it is easily punished, but it should not be used against on those ranges anyway. Fox's reflector is pretty much useless as an anti-camp here, as Falco becomes airbourne immediatly after shooting a laser, or he pops out his reflector, both effectively nullifying reflected projectiles. Falco's lasers are in a league above that of Fox, they're used in the offense, the defense, camping, approaching, running... pretty much the backbone of Falco's whole game. Fox uses a laser here and there for damage racking mostly, but that's pretty much it. Falco wins here hands down.
Edge Game:
Falco isn't that good when hanging on the ledge, Fox can ledgedrop Fair, shine stall etc etc. Falco usually loses when he's on the ledge, but Fox's anti ledge game isn't that good. When Fox is on the ledge most of the time he has an advantage, but Falco's combination of Ftilt, Fsmash and Bair makes it quite difficult to come back. I say when Falco's hanging Fox has a small advantage, and vice versa.
Surviving:
Falco has more trouble surviving, he get's shine gimped, fair gimped, everything-gimped. Fox's smashes aren't something to ignore neither, Nair combo's into Usmash, and Falco get's killed by Usmash as soon as 100%. I think Fox dies around 120% by Falco's Usmash. While Fox has an amazing hyphen, Falco has a DACUS. I must say that Falco's Usmash is less safe on shield though, as in not safe at all. Fox is definetely safer in killing on the ground. In the air Fox has more killing power, but Falco outranges him. Fox wins here as he kills Falco way to early. Also, CG-spike is not guarenteed on Fox if he DIs down and away.
Killing: (see above)
Recovery: Falco's sideB is better then Fox's, but Fox has a better upB.
This is about even imo.
Frame Data: is for *******.

Stages
Stage Striking (normal stages)
* Possible Fox Strikes
FD
SV
* Possible Falco Strikes
YI
BF

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
Jungle Japes, FD
* Possible Falco Bans
Rainbow cruise (?), Frigate, Lylat

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
RC, Frigate, Lylat
* Possible Falco Counterpicks
Jungle Japes, FD

I'm the best Fox in Europe, so who gives about your opinion?
It might be that a lot of this is incorrect, just point it out. (oh god I'll have a ton of work from this statement)

Overall 50/50, dead even imo.

 

[Zhamy]

Really, the only major advantages that Falco has in this matchup are the chaingrab and superior lasers. Otherwise, the pros and cons of each character match up pretty well, making this an almost even matchup.

55:45 Falco

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ah. yet another match in which rising Dair is very very nice... even nicer than Diddy..

I personally feel that Fox actually has a better camping game here, simply because of his more useful reflector, and quick lasers back... I don't necessarily think that Fox has to approach here, but that's pretty much my only quibble with the posts so far...

it started out with most people thinking that Falco was like this huge Fox counter...

Then I thought Fox was a pretty strong Falco counter for a little while...

And now, I think we can all agree that the match is pretty darn even...

Anything from 45-55 to 55-45 imo.

 

[GreenFox]

50:50 Although falco has a chaingrab fox can gimp Falco's recovery pretty easy and has a better reflector and lazer when they both are camping because shine stays on when he uses it and he has rapid shot lazer I also gotta give fox the props for killing early with USMASH

I say it's dead even..

 

[IAPG87]

55-45 Falco

Falco has much better camp very nice advantage, fox need falco in the air, falco boxing is better, and has 60% cg, fox 40% combo, fox better edgeguard with the shine but falco is very hard to get in the edge, fox can kill falco at 90% with good running up smash is a good advantage, because falco need 110% to kill

 

[DarkAura]

falco is not a better camper than fox... nor is fox a better camper than falco It's even in the camping area

despite the fact his lasers stun, fox fires lasers slightly more than twice as fast thus giving more damage, and don't say you have a reflector because iv never faced a falco who's bothered to reflect my lasers because it's too easy to punish. When falco SHDLs all fox has to do is standing lasers one of your lasers hit's us and 1-3 of ours hits you depending on how frequent your short hops are.

in all my experience fighting falco... one reflected laser by us screws up falco's rhythm and momentum leaving you open, and giving us time to approach... fox is fast remember.

Also fox wins camping x10 on battle field as our laser options are uber expanded there. platform laser mindgames and cancelling are too good.

i just wanted to mention the camping match up...

 

[Curaga]

Dead even.

Its a match that relies entirely on the ability of the players to sway the outcome.

Falco wants distance, Fox wants to be aggressive.

 

[Zhamy]

55-45 Falco

Falco has much better camp very nice advantage, fox need falco in the air, falco boxing is better, and has 60% cg, fox 40% combo, fox better edgeguard with the shine but falco is very hard to get in the edge, fox can kill falco at 90% with good running up smash is a good advantage, because falco need 110% to kill

EPIC post right here.

 

[SnowballBob33]

The camping game is about even. Fox can full hop fair over the lasers to approach, then just fall out of the range of any moves. Falco's lasers have stun though so fox can't really sit back and shoot. Falco can sit back, shoot, then illusion, but he risks taking damage. Since they both have shines though, you can't really give either an advantage.

It sucks if you get chaingrabbed because its automatically 50. If you get utilt/jab it basically means cg.

If you ever shine falco, its over. Don't be afraid to dair him off the stage either. His vertical distance is crap. If you both are low, just let him hit you up with his up B then get back on the stage so you don't risk saving him with your firefox.

One thing I noticed is that it's hard to get around falco's jab. The priority when he starts spinning his wings is pretty good and it's kind of hard to hit him with the wind after it.

And lol at whoever said fox has a bad anti-ledge game. Nair covers just about everything, including people who jump, ledge attack, and normal get up. Dair has greater possible outcomes but can miss more. Fair eats up people who jump a lot. Dsmash can puish people who roll because of its range and speed and fsmash hurts people who get up normally because of its distance and lasting hitbox.

The matchup is even though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

And lol at whoever said fox has a bad anti-ledge game. Nair covers just about everything, including people who jump, ledge attack, and normal get up. Dair has greater possible outcomes but can miss more. Fair eats up people who jump a lot. Dsmash can puish people who roll because of its range and speed and fsmash hurts people who get up normally because of its distance and lasting hitbox.

Yes, I bet there's an input to do Nair, Dair, Fair, Dsmash and Fsmash at the same time.
You might have a decent anti-ledge game but it doesn't work wonders against Falco, quite the opposite is true for Falco when Fox is on the edge.

 

[Zhamy]

Yes, I bet there's an input to do Nair, Dair, Fair, Dsmash and Fsmash at the same time.

Because that's totally what he was arguing.

You might have a decent anti-ledge game but it doesn't work wonders against Falco, quite the opposite is true for Falco when Fox is on the edge.

What? Hey, look what I can do!

You might have a decent anti-ledge game but it doesn't work wonders against Fox, quite the opposite is true for Fox when Falco is on the edge.

Please use logic to argue; it helps everyone.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

truth

It does work wonders against fox, because fox is outranged by falco, especially with falcos fsmash and bair, which beats most, if not all, of his options. even then falco has lasers to help.

Falco's get-up attack is a large disjoint, with great range, it has good priority, and when you hit it on a shield it pokes you too far away to retaliate. I don't know what your reaction to that is. He can ledgedrop and jump up the stage with a laser or if he's feeling lucky a reflector, interrupting all planned actions. I must admit that the rest of Falco is covered for the rest of his options.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Meh. edge game... they both kinda suck in the situation, and every option of both is punishable by the other fairly easily...

Fox has to hold shield near the ledge, and shine if he guesses lasers (free gimp yay), jump if he sees a ledge jump, grab a getup attack (doesn't push THAT far away, really...) or standup, and Dair a roll (safe on the back of Falco's shield)

Falco has similar options, really... and Fox's Fair and shine help, but still, same idea... both can punish the other.


The main issue in this match (imo) is that Fox is simply the better killer... He's a better edgeguarder (since Falco's upB kinda sucks, illusion is his only real option in most recoveries... esp against Fox's dsmash's low angle of knockback), and a better on stage killer by around 20-30% assuming both characters are hitting their killers exactly when they should...

Also, Fox's usmash combos out of Dair and Nair, as Xonar said, giving him safer ways of connecting it, whereas Falco has to risk punishment for trying a non-bair kill move.


Falco has a CG that puts about 50% on Fox... which is nice, but Fox can put that back on fairly quickly with combos... not too terrible.


Then Falo and Fox are about even in the camping game, really... I personally feel that Fox's more useful reflector gives him a slight edge here...


Falco really excels in movement options, however... he does have pretty good zoning tools, and tricksies like DACUS and phantasm (which I wish Fox had).. These make him able to keep up with Fox, whereas he would normally fail largely... TO me, these are very interesting quick movements that are punishable, but are also hard to react or predict.


I'd give a slight edge to Fox in this match, simply because they are both pretty capable in damage output, and Fox is a better killer, imo... but this edge would not be more than 55-45 for Fox.

Again, this is all just my opinion, but I'm throwing it out there anyway. lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The main issue in this match (imo) is that Fox is simply the better killer... He's a better edgeguarder (since Falco's upB kinda sucks, illusion is his only real option in most recoveries... esp against Fox's dsmash's low angle of knockback), and a better on stage killer by around 20-30% assuming both characters are hitting their killers exactly when they should...
Falco's upB is pretty much the same as Fox's, except for distance, thus it's equally gimpable, Fox just has some better tools, but that doesn't mean Falco's options are bad. and angle of a move shouldnt be taken in consideration as we're talking top level, aka with DI


Also, Fox's usmash combos out of Dair and Nair, as Xonar said, giving him safer ways of connecting it, whereas Falco has to risk punishment for trying a non-bair kill move.
True

Falco has a CG that puts about 50% on Fox... which is nice, but Fox can put that back on fairly quickly with combos... not too terrible.
Say Utilt

Then Falo and Fox are about even in the camping game, really... I personally feel that Fox's more useful reflector gives him a slight edge here...
Reflectors are useless against Falco like I said before, Falco becomes airbourne immediatly after his laser, or he throws a reflector out if it's safe, which means that it won't hit him.

Falco really excels in movement options, however... he does have pretty good zoning tools, and tricksies like DACUS and phantasm (which I wish Fox had).. These make him able to keep up with Fox, whereas he would normally fail largely... TO me, these are very interesting quick movements that are punishable, but are also hard to react or predict.
Fox's speed is also a disadvantage in that it's harder to interrupt Phantasm, except if you predict it, which should be impossible against a good player

I'd give a slight edge to Fox in this match, simply because they are both pretty capable in damage output, and Fox is a better killer, imo... but this edge would not be more than 55-45 for Fox.
Fox has killing and strings here, Falco has camping and range. Both are valuable but Falco just has more trouble utilizing his tools, but we're talking top-level, so that's not really significant.

Replies in red

 

[Fenrir VII]

Falco's upB is pretty much the same as Fox's, except for distance, thus it's equally gimpable, Fox just has some better tools, but that doesn't mean Falco's options are bad. and angle of a move shouldnt be taken in consideration as we're talking top level, aka with DI

The distance, however, makes Fox's firefox much more applicable than Falco's... Falco's is still an option, but not nearly as viable as his phantasm (meaning, for a long distance, Falco HAS to phantasm, so there is only one real timing to punish) and just not as useful as Fox's Firefox... That mixed with rising fair and shine stalling make it somewhat harder to edgeguard Fox than Falco... that's all I'm saying.

Also, even with DI, dsmash sends below a 45 degree angle... It has quite low angle of knockback either way... and makes Falco recover right around stage height usually...

Say Utilt

lol yup... among other things. : )

Reflectors are useless against Falco like I said before, Falco becomes airbourne immediatly after his laser, or he throws a reflector out if it's safe, which means that it won't hit him.

well, I mean, if Falco reflects, Fox just reflects it back, really.. but roughly, given their options, camping is about even ground, I would say... Falco being airbourne really relies on relative level spacing, but I get what you're saying.

Fox's speed is also a disadvantage in that it's harder to interrupt Phantasm, except if you predict it, which should be impossible against a good player

Well yeah, but Fox's utilt is safe to throw out whenever you're expecting a phantasm. I'm not sure Fox could punish it on reaction, but it's a good priority 3 frame move... so not bad to just throw it sometimes.. But yes, Phantasm is a good movement tool most def.

Fox has killing and strings here, Falco has camping and range. Both are valuable but Falco just has more trouble utilizing his tools, but we're talking top-level, so that's not really significant.

Well, it's just that Falco has a bit more trouble landing killing attacks... and the range that he does have is also kinda offset by Fox's speed...

Either way you swing it, this isn't a large advantage to either court, and it's a fun match to play, imo.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The distance, however, makes Fox's firefox much more applicable than Falco's... Falco's is still an option, but not nearly as viable as his phantasm (meaning, for a long distance, Falco HAS to phantasm, so there is only one real timing to punish) and just not as useful as Fox's Firefox... That mixed with rising fair and shine stalling make it somewhat harder to edgeguard Fox than Falco... that's all I'm saying.
True, I might be the only Falco using firebird to recover horizontally, and it only works because nobody else does

Also, even with DI, dsmash sends below a 45 degree angle... It has quite low angle of knockback either way... and makes Falco recover right around stage height usually...
Falco's second jump and a 30-40 degree angle makes it easily possible to recover even with firebird.


well, I mean, if Falco reflects, Fox just reflects it back, really.. but roughly, given their options, camping is about even ground, I would say... Falco being airbourne really relies on relative level spacing, but I get what you're saying.
Here I must really disagree, Falco has only like 1 or 2 frames here he isn't being reflected if he uses downB repeatedly. And if Fox runs in to punish he might just be taken by another downB, even then it can be spaced in a short hop to be almost completely safe.


Well yeah, but Fox's utilt is safe to throw out whenever you're expecting a phantasm. I'm not sure Fox could punish it on reaction, but it's a good priority 3 frame move... so not bad to just throw it sometimes.. But yes, Phantasm is a good movement tool most def.
A falco shouldn't phantasm if Fox is walking (you can't utilt directly from a dash) towards him, until Fox is really in his face.


Well, it's just that Falco has a bit more trouble landing killing attacks... and the range that he does have is also kinda offset by Fox's speed...
Fox's speed while dashing so he can dash attack or grab? Sorry but I can't take that too serious. Even if you get airbourne in your approach Falco counters it with lasers or (even better) bair.

Either way you swing it, this isn't a large advantage to either court, and it's a fun match to play, imo.
It's a hard match for both parties, fun to play yeah :D

replies in red =D

 

[Fenrir VII]

True, I might be the only Falco using firebird to recover horizontally, and it only works because nobody else does

lol maybe.. upB for both characters, I feel, is underrated, though. I mean, if you only can recover with illusion/phantasm, then your opponent only has to worry about one timing... and thus can punish only based on positioning... which is ridiculous. UpB is slow and punishable, yes... but due to this, your opponent will often be spaced to punish illusion, and have no chance at hitting you. (most people seem to think that firefox/bird can only come from below for some reason, and thus is SUPER PUNISHABLE!!!! lol)

This is one reason why I feel that firefox, especially fairly high above the stage, is a very valid recovery, and necessary to Fox's game. Falco is similar, but the range of the firebird is pretty depressing to me. : /

Falco's second jump and a 30-40 degree angle makes it easily possible to recover even with firebird.

oh yeah, to most extent. I'm not saying dsmash = death all the time for Falco... but at higher %s, firebird just won't make it, and Fox can focus on phantasm punishment. That's all

Here I must really disagree, Falco has only like 1 or 2 frames here he isn't being reflected if he uses downB repeatedly. And if Fox runs in to punish he might just be taken by another downB, even then it can be spaced in a short hop to be almost completely safe.

lol but Fox can just hold reflector, and send lasers back as many times as they need to be. (I'm mainly talking about reflecting a falco laser here..not Fox just lasering blindly or anything)

meh, camping is a bit of an empasse, and both characters can do it and get around it. : )

A falco shouldn't phantasm if Fox is walking (you can't utilt directly from a dash) towards him, until Fox is really in his face.

then a Fox walk approach is godly? hah. Fox mainly has to guess a phantasm to punish it, but it's also a risk to the Falco, shoudl Fox guess it...

Heck, if Fox guesses it right and dairs, there's a combo/usmash. It's not punishable every time, or even close, but it is a risk for Falco.

Fox's speed while dashing so he can dash attack or grab? Sorry but I can't take that too serious. Even if you get airbourne in your approach Falco counters it with lasers or (even better) bair.

"can't take too serious"? Not sure what you mean by that, really... please explain? And I thought you were talking about attack range (not camping) here... so I was mainly meaning that Fox closes gaps faster than most characters, or changes position better than most.... so rage with Fsmash and such still isn't very safe.

It's a hard match for both parties, fun to play yeah :D

Let me just say that this is like the friendliest character matchup debate I've seen in a while. I'm waiting for the "Falco laser spike zone. u die" argument, and it hasn't come yet. : )
so thanks to you.

 

[Zhamy]

Falco lasers and then spikes you so you lose also Fox can only use Dair->Utilt

70:30 Flaco

 

[Sosuke]

I'm waiting for the "Falco laser spike zone. u die" argument, and it hasn't come yet. : )

Falco lasers and then spikes you so you lose also Fox can only use Dair->Utilt

70:30 Flaco

C'mon guyssssssss.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

lol maybe.. upB for both characters, I feel, is underrated, though. I mean, if you only can recover with illusion/phantasm, then your opponent only has to worry about one timing... and thus can punish only based on positioning... which is ridiculous. UpB is slow and punishable, yes... but due to this, your opponent will often be spaced to punish illusion, and have no chance at hitting you. (most people seem to think that firefox/bird can only come from below for some reason, and thus is SUPER PUNISHABLE!!!! lol)

This is one reason why I feel that firefox, especially fairly high above the stage, is a very valid recovery, and necessary to Fox's game. Falco is similar, but the range of the firebird is pretty depressing to me. : /
Wooohooo someone that agrees with me, no comment here, just props


oh yeah, to most extent. I'm not saying dsmash = death all the time for Falco... but at higher %s, firebird just won't make it, and Fox can focus on phantasm punishment. That's all
That's true, but a true Falco can pretty much just pick his height and it becomes a predicting game. Phantasm cancel is just too good.


lol but Fox can just hold reflector, and send lasers back as many times as they need to be. (I'm mainly talking about reflecting a falco laser here..not Fox just lasering blindly or anything)
True, but this is the same concept as crawling.
Long story short, phantasm beats it.

meh, camping is a bit of an empasse, and both characters can do it and get around it. : )
True.


then a Fox walk approach is godly? hah. Fox mainly has to guess a phantasm to punish it, but it's also a risk to the Falco, shoudl Fox guess it...

Heck, if Fox guesses it right and dairs, there's a combo/usmash. It's not punishable every time, or even close, but it is a risk for Falco.
It's a risk for both, the problem is that Fox has to initiate the proces, which can be seen as a disadvantage.


"can't take too serious"? Not sure what you mean by that, really... please explain? And I thought you were talking about attack range (not camping) here... so I was mainly meaning that Fox closes gaps faster than most characters, or changes position better than most.... so rage with Fsmash and such still isn't very safe.
Yeah in terms of closing the gap you're right, must've been a misunderstanding on my part


Let me just say that this is like the friendliest character matchup debate I've seen in a while. I'm waiting for the "Falco laser spike zone. u die" argument, and it hasn't come yet. : )
Mainly because the spike is not legit on all percentages, like Wolf Fox can DI down and away and avoid the spike, though I'm not sure about percentages (thought 35+) in either way it's not that lethal. And even then the spike has to be buffered to hit, so I don't really think it's that much of a deal.
so thanks to you.

replies in redd

 

[Fenrir VII]

Mainly because the spike is not legit on all percentages, like Wolf Fox can DI down and away and avoid the spike, though I'm not sure about percentages (thought 35+) in either way it's not that lethal. And even then the spike has to be buffered to hit, so I don't really think it's that much of a deal.

That doesn't mean they won't argue it...

matchup discussions can be informative and intelligent conversations, or they can be a whole bunch of people saying erroneous things usually followed by something like "lol u die"

Even the SBR Character discussion that took place before the last tier list had SBR people saying stuff like "And Falco is a hard counter to Fox because of the spike.." twas ridiculous..and those are the people who decide tier lists and rulesets... >.>

Anyways, yeah, even if the spike does hit at the max % it actually is inescapable, Fox can get back to the stage with a double jump rising fair, so no worries there.


Anyways, I actually think we've covered pretty much everything you and I are going to say... so to sum up (correct me if I'm wrong)

Camping is pretty much even in the match
Falco has about a 0-50% CG on Fox
Falco can zone and outrange Fox pretty effectively
Falco has movement tools that allow him to deal better with Fox's speed.
Fox has good % combos
Fox has the better recovery
Fox is the better and more efficient killer
Fox is fast enough to punish or avoid many of Falco's outranging attacka



And anywhere from 45-55 to 55-45 for either char...

I say 55-45 for Fox, but others say different... so *shrug* I'm ok with whatever in this range.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Camping is pretty much even in the match
Falco has about a 0-50% CG on Fox
Falco can zone and outrange Fox pretty effectively
Falco has movement tools that allow him to deal better with Fox's speed.
Fox has good % combos
Fox has the better recovery
Fox is the better and more efficient killer
Fox is fast enough to punish or avoid many of Falco's outranging attacks

Falco has a slight advantage in camping.
In the last line you say, "Fox is fast enough to punish...", this is also true for Falco, both are excellent punishers, so I don't think it's worth noting. Fox is effective at avoiding Falco's attacks though, even if it gets in the way of his aggresive game. Also chaingrab can rack more damage then that so I'd make it:

Both characters have to be careful in their game as everything can be exploited by the opponent.
Falco has a slightly better camp game.
Falco has about a 0-50% CG on Fox, with a techchase (dair), or a 0-70% leaving you in the air (dacus).
Falco can zone and outrange Fox pretty effectively
Falco has movement tools that allow him to deal better with Fox's speed.
Fox has good % combos
Fox has the better recovery
Fox is the better and more efficient killer
Fox is fast enough to or avoid many of Falco's outranging attacks

 

[Fenrir VII]

Falco has a slight advantage in camping.
In the last line you say, "Fox is fast enough to punish...", this is also true for Falco, both are excellent punishers, so I don't think it's worth noting. Fox is effective at avoiding Falco's attacks though, even if it gets in the way of his aggresive game. Also chaingrab can rack more damage then that so I'd make it:

Are you sure that DACUS can hit when Fox is at that high of %? I thought at that point, he could DI away and not be hit reliably by it. I could be wrong, but I didn't think it could do 70%...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Are you sure that DACUS can hit when Fox is at that high of %? I thought at that point, he could DI away and not be hit reliably by it. I could be wrong, but I didn't think it could do 70%...

Even if dacus cant hit, the dash attack will combo into a variety of attacks, often leading into 70% anyway. Most falco's go for the tech chase though, even more of a disadvantage.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Even if dacus cant hit, the dash attack will combo into a variety of attacks, often leading into 70% anyway. Most falco's go for the tech chase though, even more of a disadvantage.

No, I'm saying, above 50% (ish), Fox gets pretty strong DI away from Falco's Dthrow... to not even be reliably hit by dash attack... and the inclusion of teching means it can lead to other things, but is escapable.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No, I'm saying, above 50% (ish), Fox gets pretty strong DI away from Falco's Dthrow... to not even be reliably hit by dash attack... and the inclusion of teching means it can lead to other things, but is escapable.

Fox doesn't really get that far, he just goes low.
If you mean DI down and tech you'll still be hit by anything and everything.

Let's just agree that techchase is best. Remove the last sentence in the statement and I'll be fine to agree with anywhere 45:55 - 55:45, preferring 50:50 myself.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fox doesn't really get that far, he just goes low.
If you mean DI down and tech you'll still be hit by anything and everything.

Let's just agree that techchase is best. Remove the last sentence in the statement and I'll be fine to agree with anywhere 45:55 - 55:45, preferring 50:50 myself.

I'll drink to that *tips hat*

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

'Woot a normal discussion with a Falco player' is probably your thought right now

 

[Zhamy]

Just a tip on Dthrow->spike: It's avoidable at almost all percentages except this one gap in mid-percents (somewhere from 50%-ish?, don't remember). You can SDI into the stage and tech in most cases, and the timing is pretty forgiving. Learn, abuse it, don't get gimped.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Just a tip on Dthrow->spike: It's avoidable at almost all percentages except this one gap in mid-percents (somewhere from 50%-ish?, don't remember). You can SDI into the stage and tech in most cases, and the timing is pretty forgiving. Learn, abuse it, don't get gimped.

At the percentages where the spike is viable a roflcopter will get you back on the stage

 

[M@v]

Since I use both of these guys in tourney, and I've played both sides of the matchup, here are my thoughts.

Even or 55:45 in favor of the blue bird, because of the CG. I'm really not sure. A feat very few characters can accomplish. And now for each of their respective advantages in this matchup:

Fox:

-air game. Fox got Falco beat in the air. Fox's aerials are much better than Falco's overall. The only aerial Falco has that is as good(arguably better) than fox's aerials is bair. It kills, it approaches, it spaces, its a sex kick, it has good priority. What else do you need out of an aerial? the only other aerial Falco has thats good is his nair, and Fox's fair is better than in it pretty much every way.

-Kill Power. The one thing I miss whenever I use Falco is the ability to completely smash people with fox's superior kill power. Falco is meh in the kill department, with his 3 best kill moves(Upsmash, Fsmash, backair) being pretty easy to predict. Even though Falco's upsmash is the same animation, it's harder to hit with due to falco's slower running speed. And fox's running upsmash>Falco's boostsmash.
Fox's kill options are pretty apparent. Hands down one of the top 5 kill moves with upsmash, with a better version of falco's downsmash and a decent backair for KOs

-Recovery. Don't get me wrong Falco's phantasm> Fox's Illusion. But if Falco can't use phantasm, he is in deep ****. His up b is full of fail. It's such a joke of a move. Meanwhile, although by no means safe, Fox's firefox actually goes farther than his illusion range wise, so its actually practical for recovering low. Also, Fox has the rising fair jump boost. Combine with shine stalling and not only is fox better at recovery, he can also mindgame his recovery to come back safe.

Falco's Advantages:

-chaingrab. Yup. Fox gets chaingrabbed. And it takes like 50% off of him. Considering he is light and all, that doesnt help.

-Range: Falco has an obvious range advantage here. His lasers go farther, his ftilt is longer than foxes, his bair has great range. Fox unfortunately lacks in that department.


Grey area: (No clear advantage)

-Camping. Falco got the better laser but the worse reflector. Fox got the worse laser but better reflector. It all comes down to who plays their cards better. That person wins the camp battle.

lets leave it at this: even if the fox knows how to handle Falco's camping, then outcamp him, 50:50. If not, 55:45 Falco.

 

[Zephil]

Since I use both of these guys in tourney, and I've played both sides of the matchup, here are my thoughts.

Even or 55:45 in favor of the blue bird, because of the CG. I'm really not sure. A feat very few characters can accomplish. And now for each of their respective advantages in this matchup:

Fox:

-air game. Fox got Falco beat in the air. Fox's aerials are much better than Falco's overall. The only aerial Falco has that is as good(arguably better) than fox's aerials is bair. It kills, it approaches, it spaces, its a sex kick, it has good priority. What else do you need out of an aerial? the only other aerial Falco has thats good is his nair, and Fox's fair is better than in it pretty much every way.

-Kill Power. The one thing I miss whenever I use Falco is the ability to completely smash people with fox's superior kill power. Falco is meh in the kill department, with his 3 best kill moves(Upsmash, Fsmash, backair) being pretty easy to predict. Even though Falco's upsmash is the same animation, it's harder to hit with due to falco's slower running speed. And fox's running upsmash>Falco's boostsmash.
Fox's kill options are pretty apparent. Hands down one of the top 5 kill moves with upsmash, with a better version of falco's downsmash and a decent backair for KOs

-Recovery. Don't get me wrong Falco's phantasm> Fox's Illusion. But if Falco can't use phantasm, he is in deep ****. His up b is full of fail. It's such a joke of a move. Meanwhile, although by no means safe, Fox's firefox actually goes farther than his illusion range wise, so its actually practical for recovering low. Also, Fox has the rising fair jump boost. Combine with shine stalling and not only is fox better at recovery, he can also mindgame his recovery to come back safe.

Falco's Advantages:

-chaingrab. Yup. Fox gets chaingrabbed. And it takes like 50% off of him. Considering he is light and all, that doesnt help.

-Range: Falco has an obvious range advantage here. His lasers go farther, his ftilt is longer than foxes, his bair has great range. Fox unfortunately lacks in that department.


Grey area: (No clear advantage)

-Camping. Falco got the better laser but the worse reflector. Fox got the worse laser but better reflector. It all comes down to who plays their cards better. That person wins the camp battle.

lets leave it at this: even if the fox knows how to handle Falco's camping, then outcamp him, 50:50. If not, 55:45 Falco.

agree with everything in this post... is exactly how I think... the only thing to add was already mentioned in this thread that is that in tilts department and jab Falco wins, only Fox´s utilt is an exception..

 

[crifer]

btw. I never was cg spiked by a Falco...

And like Fox vs Falco is like on of my favourite mu´s in the entire game,
not only because they are "friends" or whatever in one game...

actually everything was said.
I love nair to upsmash,
50:50

 

[Zhamy]

The thing about Falco to remember is that he's one of the few characters that beats Fox out in boxing, so your most effective range is "when you can smack him upside the head with aerials." Other than that, mostly everything has been said, so on to stages?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Of the neutrals, I prefer FD to anything else, really... nothing's too terrible, but FD really limits his recoveries, making it easier to guard them.


After that, I personally like the following stages for CP:

Frigate Orpheon
Lylat
Brinstar


Brinstar is overall good for Fox, and the other two make recovery riskier... which hurts Falco a bit more than Fox... so yeah. : )

 

[TKD]

editted post out

 

[M@v]

Fox CAN recover. You just have to rising fair 1st. If you don't, you can be edge hogged on some stages.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, Fox can recover every time... he can actually even recover without rising Fair, but Rising fair allows you to get on the stage or grab the ledge every time... it's ridiculous... and Falco's like "noOooo, now how do I do damage???" heh kidding, but CG spike isn't legit.

 

[TKD]

I feel that this is one of the match-ups I know best now. Too much info to organize constructively, since I haven't slept.

- I shine to reflect blaster shots when predicting or it's safe and SH 3ple blasters or just jump after having reflected.
- Approaching is weird still. It's possible to land at Falco's back with nair in case they block, but it's possible that they predict this and turn around before blocking, too. Air-dodging is good in case Falco tries to keep you out with his high priority nair.
- When predicting a phantom, you can turn your back against Falco and SH dair away from him to catch the phantasm.
- Bair's cool. Turn-around shine into bair while moving away is cool as well. There's also aerial shinestalling and foot-stools. In desperate times, illusion away and cancel. All options to avoid a grab.
- You can't challenge Falco with predictable aerials when at high %, as Falco's usmash and fsmash beat Fox's aerials.
- If you dair a Falco that phantasms back on-stage, Falco conserves his landing lag, so if you jab after the dair, their landing lag kicks in allowing you to grab or usmash in the correct direction.
- Similarly, you can hold A to jab Falco out of his phantasm and hit him during landing lag, although this doesn't seem to work all the time, plus remember that Falco is invincible during the first 3rd of phantom's trajectory, so you can't challenge it from too close after it's already in motion.
- If Falco's being juggled and he performs and aerial or air-dodges too early, you can shield-grab or bait and dash attack to continue the string. You can even hit him (including usmash) if he performs a phantasm too late (as Fox dashes quickly enough to reach him during start-up).
- Utilt into grab is better at low % where more utilts don't combo. Utilt into waiting to see what Falco does to attempt strings is better at higher % where utilt doesn't combo into itself anymore.
- Dair beats very predictable spot-dodging habits, you can't be predictable yourself though as Falco's usmash and fsmash counter it.
- After clashing moves on the ground, you can block Falco's incoming jabs
- You can shieldgrab or usmash Falco's 2nd jab from block, or only the 1st one if you predict the opponent will only do that one
- Try not to get chain-grabbed. Fresh dthrow stops comboing into other stuff at around 28%, I don't know the correct %.
- After being jabbed once at chain-grab %'s, you can roll away or amazingly shine on reaction to avoid being grabbed.

Just a bunch of tips, I guess. It's not entirely obvious to me what you should do in this match-up, so I can't generalize the game plan yet. you can watch a match of mine against a pretty bad Falco the first match of a youtube video called "teekaydee vs fox16".