Match up Export #17: Lucario| New Discussion

[C.R.Z]

lol it's that bad, no wonder. I was guessing whether he might have a run n' camp game there, but then again taking one of your best killers and wrecking it and also giving a quasi- aerial superior stage together isn't very forgiving I guess

I also think Fox would do reasonably well on Delphino with all those long stretches of space to out maneuver and the ceiling is usually VERY LOW on that stage.

delphino is like battlefield , so we like it (well i do anyways)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well now that I can post again.

This MU is kinda dumb because neither character has a truly safe kill move on the other. Lucario's Fsmash won't work unless Fox make a mistake, same with Fox's Usmash. When Lucario is at Usmash kill range, 105-120% or so with good DI, he can actually kill fox pretty well around that percent.

Lucario is outcamped, but that really isn't a huge deal. Even if Lucario would hop around lasers the fact Fox has a reflector and speed kinda hampers any chance of Lucario trying to play keep away with Fox.

Lucario is better in the spacing department. He can out space Fox so if he can get up close he can space with Ftilt and jab for the most part. Phil told you about the Uthrow CG to 38%-dthrow/bthrow. It's legit, Lucario needs to buffer the throw for it to work so if you spam shine to break out so you can catch him in the middle of the CG if he doesn't buffer it correctly. Lucario could shield and regrab but I'm 99% sure he's trying to buffer the grab and is going to not catch on fast enough if he made a mistake. The grab needs itself to stale to work properly so if he starts around 20% or later you could shine out, but keep him mind he can shield grab you out of shine if you think Lucario is going to do this jump away.

The main problem a lot of Lucario's hate in the MU is how hard it is to use Fsmash, if he wiffs it Fox can get a free Usmash, also if you shield it close enough. Can;t really catch you on landing frames or if Lucario can it's kinda hard since you can stall in the air with shine and your fall speed can get you to the ground quickly. Usmash while a good punisher is not safe on shield Lucario can punish this, Dtilt, Utilt, Filt, grab, jab etc.

Lucario is going to take to the skies more than the ground, he will beat Fox in the air. I know that Fox has fair but I'm pretty sure Lucario's fair will beat it out if he throws it out so it nails Fox's feet. Uair kills are going to be rare because dair out ranges and out speeds it.

I really can't see Lucario getting shine spiked unless he makes a huge mistake. Kinda like the Wolf MU Lucario can recover high pretty well and even then catching him in the middle of his UpB isn't that easy. Speaking of recovery, your side-b is easier to catch than Falco's is, and if Lucario can get the timing down, not too hard it's just waiting a little bit, and knock fox out of side B. Still Lucario needs to get the move out at the right time, and that inself is kinda tricky.

Stages, well Yoshi's is fantastic vs Fox, Frigate on the first part is awesome. FD and japes suck for Lucario in this MU, well japes is more manageable against Fox rather than Falco but both are still a pain in the arse against spacies. I love playing on FD but even I admit it's aggravating.

I really do think this is a 5:5. Fox is a pain because Lucario has to play so awkwardly to go even in this MU and Fox still has fears of his own about Lucario in other areas.

 

[Adamated]

How well does jjc - dsmash do against lucario?

 

[phi1ny3]

jjc?

Oh yeah, there's like one other instance I've seen fsmash work, when usmash whiffs on shield (I saw it on one match once).

 

[Conviction]

Jab Jab Cancel. Uair would also contend for aerial battles.

 

[phi1ny3]

What's the frame advantage for your jabs?

 

[Conviction]

Look it up in the thread Uzi has stickied.

EX: JJC>Shine is a frame trap. but Shine>Usmash is a combo. Only works if you JJC'd before the shine.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It looks like Lucario's frame 6 jab is not helpful here since he sucumms to jabcancled stuff.

So Fox can shine to Usmash us until he get a bit higher, which for the later part of the range Lucario is indeed in KO percentage.

 

[Steam]

If we get a grab on you guys at the ledge you can probably kiss your stock goodbye from the really bad position the air release puts you in.

 

[Conviction]

If we get a grab on you guys at the ledge you can probably kiss your stock goodbye from the really bad position the air release puts you in.

Ummm no we can still recover

 

[Steam]

Ummm no we can still recover

not if we gimp you, which is easy to do in that situation and you lack options

 

[crifer]

not if we gimp you, which is easy to do in that situation and you lack options

not true. if so, we can easily gimp you with a throw setup, too. nair to nair/shine rules.

 

[Adamated]

Ya, rising fair really makes any sour of vertical gap go away. So I dont think its a kiss your stock goodbye kinda deal here, but we are at a bit of a disadvantage, and the same goes for you if you're on the recieving end of that.

 

[Conviction]

Yea a Nair, Dair, or shine would make you go bye-bye on your stock offstage easy now that I think about how they position you.

 

[AvaricePanda]

THE ABOVE SIX VAGUE BLANKET STATEMENTS HELP ME SO MUCH WITH THIS MATCH-UP GUYS LOL

Normally I wouldn't care, but Diddy vs. Lucario is dumb for me and I don't feel like I'm learning anything from "we gimp you," "no we gimp you!" "no we gimp you because of (insert single move here and not include zoning, habits, prediction, how to apply it)." "no we can just recover (not specifiy how)."

 

[Steam]

using DJ fair after we GR you doesnt help much since Fair trades with/beats it out when luc's above fox, and we'll still have our DJ and upB while you only have your upB. From there we can just push you out with some fairs and ledgehog. at higher percents it doesnt work as well though obviously.

@Adamated- our air release puts us pretty high up and far away while yours puts you pretty far under the stage and rather close.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Normally I wouldn't care, but Diddy vs. Lucario is dumb for me

1. You just need to learn to kill him. Have Count teach you how, he's pretty good at it.

2. Fox?!? Even more reason to go Falco against you.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Not that I can't beat him per se, but it's just not a fun match-up. I just camp haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard, I got Braxton down to like less than 2 minutes remaining on our matches, lol.

And you know I don't kill well so I need to work on that.

I don't trust my secondaries enough in tournament anyway :x

 

[Steam]

footstool him out of wallcling if you can. and do whatever you can to keep him from getting momentum when he has high Aura. Remember he has a ton of options but all of them are pretty unsafe, so I guess try to bait him into something =/

 

[Conviction]

*looks*

Fox vs. Lucario

Ummm....I don't know how far you guys are coming out to get us.

We can DI back while Rising Fair. Remember Fox's Fair gives a horizontal momentum boost.Then we illision to ledge or stage.

 

[Steam]

we might still be able to reach you but Im not sure. I'll go check now =P edit to come soon

 

[Steam]

We can still get to you but your fair beats us there it seems. but if we can predict you'll do that we can just DJ so we're above you again and fair you once or twice then ledgehog you.

Also pummel release puts you at an even worse spot, you'll be able to do things quicker (so you can get higher up) but since you're right under the ledge fair will be able to get you no matter which way you DI, and Luc will still have a DJ. Both of these could be avoided with a shine-stall (We might be able to dair you after it, IDK) but it's still a really risky position for fox.

edit: sorry, didnt mean to double post =/

 

[Conviction]

Errr??

Rising Fair or stall with Shine to make you go back to stage.

 

[Steam]

our fair will beat out/trade with your fair from above. it varies with the exact angle and spacing. But shine stall will likely save you unless we predict that you will

 

[Conviction]

Sounds gimmicky now.

 

[Steam]

what do you mean by that? Lucario just has wierd hitboxes and a variable priority system

 

[Conviction]

It sounds like a guessing game. Not something as go to option.

 

[D. Disciple]

Usually I shoot out aura spheres at you guys to harass if I have a Fox off stage, then follow up from their. If it hits you, I grab the edge and then start to punish, if you airdodge it I just wait for you to try to come back then punish.

 

[Conviction]

Aura spheres? Aim for the ledge I guess. Don't head toward lucario. Either stay above or go to the ledge.

EDIT: Aura spheres do sound like the best option though.

 

[Steam]

Still though, I'd take a 50% chance for a low%gimp if I could

 

[Conviction]

Yea I agree but it's something you can know but not 100% relie on.

 

[Steam]

Well I wouldnt exactly count on getting a grab on the ledge lol.

It's also stage dependent too lots of stages save you. But then again we might even be able to get you out of shine stall when we pummel release even when we take the normal angle. You could probably react to it too and our dair is ******** and comes out frame 4. But I'll test more of it out tonight

 

[Conviction]

Ok let us know what happens.

 

[Steam]

Unfortunately It will be a few days before I can get a testing buddy. changes of plan suck =[

 

[Conviction]

Ahh...well trust me nothing is gonna keep going so it will be the same when you get back. So you won't miss anything.

 

[Steam]

actually got to test it out today and shine gets punished REALLY easily and fair outprioritizes your fair a lot more often than I initially thought.

 

[TKD]

This is my absolute best match-up. If I only know ONE match-up, it's this one. Everything posted here are baby's "gaga"s to me. I'm actually tired of these discussions which quickly fill themselves with vast innocence.

Maybe I'll start posting only advice to let you get caught in your own stubborn discussions. Barely anyone listens anyway (or is capable of executing). What do you guys think? Am I just being bitter?

 

[Robfox]

^ Na not bitter probably jus annoyed that peopel usually get in an arguement over little things and if they do constantly ask questions. It's understandable.

This MU for me is somewhat fun if a person really knows Lucario like KuraKami. If a person can aireal just right with Lucario, can side B CG, and can use Aura sphere at the right moment they will destroy Fox. For Lucario here is my advice
1. Stay out of the air
2.Up tilt maybe 1-2times for a setup anything past that Lucario can Dair succesfully
3.getting close to Lucario can be dangerous overall I would say dodge and punish the whole time.
But hey that's just me.

 

[.AC.]

^ Na not bitter probably jus annoyed that peopel usually get in an arguement over little things and if they do constantly ask questions. It's understandable.

This MU for me is somewhat fun if a person really knows Lucario like KuraKami. If a person can aireal just right with Lucario, can side B CG, and can use Aura sphere at the right moment they will destroy Fox. For Lucario here is my advice
1. Stay out of the air
2.Up tilt maybe 1-2times for a setup anything past that Lucario can Dair succesfully
3.getting close to Lucario can be dangerous overall I would say dodge and punish the whole time.
But hey that's just me.

lucario cannot chaingrab fox with side B.

 

[Variable]

This is my absolute best match-up. If I only know ONE match-up, it's this one. Everything posted here are baby's "gaga"s to me. I'm actually tired of these discussions which quickly fill themselves with vast innocence.

Maybe I'll start posting only advice to let you get caught in your own stubborn discussions. Barely anyone listens anyway (or is capable of executing). What do you guys think? Am I just being bitter?

I'd say you know the MK MU pretty well too.