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Match up Export #17: Lucario| New Discussion

Conviction

Human Nature
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Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Lucario


________________________________

Things to keep in mind while discussing!

Code:
* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* How Do We Judge Ratios?

To assign ratios, one must know what each ratio mean.

50:50 - Neutral/Even. Both characters have an equal amount of advantages and disadvantages against each other. The degrees of punishment and tactical efficiency are accurately similar on both sides.

60:40 - Advantage/Disadvantage. One character has something over the other character that puts him/her in a bad position, be it long range, fast speed, high juggle ability, etc. While the lesser character can get around it, it'll often be a nuisance to get around.

70:30 - Heavy Advantage/Disadvantage. The winning character capitalizes on the losing character quite hard. Usually in these cases, it's the winning character has a strength, that directly goes against the character's weakness. For instance X Character is fast and has long range, while Y character is slow and has short range.

80:20 - Extreme Advantage/Disadvantage. Winning Character has something so huge over the losing character that it over-centralizes the match-up(DDD vs DK comes to mind). This starts to enter the realm of unwinnable, though not quite there.

I won't go any higher/lower than that. I also didn't do anything in-between because it's far too specific to go into, though that doesn't mean the ratios can't be used. It mainly pertains to varying degrees when looking at advantages/disadvantages.

When that understood, the rest is easy(not really). Compare and Contrast all advantages and disadvantages of each character, and see which character has the better advantage.


* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.
With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

________________________________

:lucario: Lucario :lucario:



KEY POINTS


Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality


Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Lucario Strikes
* To Be Classified:
Code:
Final Destination,Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]
Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Lucario Bans
* To Be Classified:
Code:
Final Destination,Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]
Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Lucario Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:
Code:
Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]
Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

VERDICT :fox: ??:?? :lucario:


MATCH-UP DISCUSSION GO!
 

culexus・wau

Purchased premium only to change name ><
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its either slightly fox's favor or just REALLY annoying for lucario because we HAVE to approach you <<

christ****

TKD is really good at this MU.

if you don't know how to SHTL its slightly harder though.

but you should know if you're a fox main and not a bad fox secondary like me right? </3

uh upsmash is scary but you guys die kinda easy if you get hit while were at 120+

we have a cg to 38% I think on you guys?

If we have to recover from below theres no reason not to shine us.

idk much besides that.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Yeah, it's 0-38% then another throw of choice iirc.

TKD is scary lol, I'm sad he's not around anymore really.

There's always Rookie though
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
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Fox's cross-ups are gay.

Fsmash gets usmashed by Fox either on startup or on block.

I don't like this match-up.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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I said 60-40 Fox's favor. Write-up coming.

Lucario's moves still have range and some lasting hitboxes so it's not completely unwinnable for you guys.

Also I can get TKD if you guys would like :)
 

Asce

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Fox should definitely force Lucario to approach in this matchup. SHTL is our BEST FRIEND!!! were also significantly faster which does play into how well we get our kills in this MU. Lucarios air game is still better than ours however because of the disjointed hit-boxes on all of the aerials, but baiting Dairs is fun :)

We force you guys to approach and punish accordingly, but if we dont kill early then it becomes more of a problem for sure with your increased shieldstun, higher killing potential, etc.

55-45 or 60-40 fox advantage...probably more towards the former because Lucario will still put up a fight with correct spacing, although FSmash is a mistake to use against fox.
 

Exceladon City

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2 things that you need to know

1. Main B Button and just B button
2. Secondary AC Foxcopters

Do this until Lucario is at 40% (Force Palm CG is ineffective around 40%)

The rest is clockwork.

60:40 Fox
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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2 things that you need to know

1. Main B Button and just B button
2. Secondary AC Foxcopters

Do this until Lucario is at 40% (Force Palm CG is ineffective around 40%)

The rest is clockwork.

60:40 Fox
It isn't a FP CG. If you mash out of FP, you can get out of it even on the first FP.

It's a uthrow CG actually.

This ain't even like it used to be lol.

I don't like fsmash in this MU at all, you're not catching a smart fox with this while he's in the air, and it's punishable on the ground.

I do like utilt and uair, assuming you hug tight and don't let him slip away.

Really, TKD was there? Isn't he in that more "I just hang out at tourneys" stage?

I think Rookie knows this MU pretty well, he's got a lot of Lucarios near him (one's in his crew). Someone hit him up on this. RJ and those other NJ lucs I guess as well.

I'd say 45:55 Fox favor, 40:60 sounds meh and doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as our other MUs, really tests my patience to play this MU though lol. I kinda treat it similarly to the Wario MU, except you don't have to worry about camp -> fart but have other issues to deal with.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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A lot of this is baiting the other character to do something punishable. I think we shouldn't run directly at spacies like we have been though. I think we Carios need to do some empty retreating FAirs in somewhat close range and some empty jumps to let him wear down his own shield, so we can hassle it later.

We need to learn how to DI your silly FAir (help would be appreciated).

Mess up your USmash, whack our shield, and you can either get grabbed or you can get a face full of Lucario's rising DAir which can move horizontally (Air Walking).

We Lucarios need to get out of our bad habits and learn the friggin' tech that I've been talking about for the last 6 months - year >.> and learning that CG... If we stop FSmashing everything I think we might even have it even or 55:45 us. I mean we have to let ourselves be open to get USmashed.

If we force you to Up B chances are we will punish or try to gimp, you know the usual, etc.
 

Adamated

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Not very familliar to the MU. From what i have played, i hate utilt and ftilt.

So Idk i guess 55-45 is good. I havent really ran into a good cario lately.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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To be honest the more I think about it the more stage dependent this match-up is.

Fox on FD is D: for us. Lylat is D: for Fawks. Yoshi's is our best neutral against Fox probably. Then BF.

Keeping him fairly close is great for us.

Also, could someone tell me which way to DI that FAir of Fox's? (I know you're helping us, but hey we're providing all this nice info for you :p)
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Uhhh...40:60 fox? Where are people getting this idea from?

This is 50:50 if you play it right. As in don't auto pilot Lucario in this MU.

I can only do the CG to 12% before people shine out, but I hear RJ figured out how to do it til 38% while testing with Rookie. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I'll figure it out.

I really think this is a 5:5 if the Lucario doesn't play like a robot.
 

phi1ny3

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I actually think we're at some disadvantage, but not as steep as against MK or DDD tbh.

I think the first stock in this video is actually how the MU looks, mind you, RJ loses his steam pretty quickly (and he was a lot worse back then than he is now), but I think this illustrates Lucario v. Fox rather well, up until RJ loses it and makes some unsafe mistakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W94hclff5zQ

Here's one where I think the fox is waaay higher in skill level than the Lucario, but I like how he demonstrates the uthrow CG rather well:
it got deleted :\
fml

How do you guys feel about YUI, the japanese fox player?
 

Exceladon City

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Old news is old. I haven't seen anything from YUI since I first joined the boards. Also I didn't know you could mash out of FP. Thanks for the tip. But yeah I've played several Lucarios (Tactical, Fizzle, Ttar, VaMP). One of which I played regularly (Tactical) when I mained Fox, so I have about a years worth of experience in this match up. I just autopilot once I get Lucy to 40%. Fair eats Lucario, alive.

It doesn't help Lucario, isn't very fast either, since Fox, can keep up the camp game pretty steadily against slower characters not named DDD, which he can camp alright against but I digress.

Lucario, can obviously wall like his name is Vaporeon. Fairs will give Fox, hell offstage, so make sure your recovering isn't mad predictable.

The uthrow CG is a pain because, well it's a CG and Fox, gets CG'd by enough characters as is.

I can't really think of much on Lucario's part against Fox, because once again, I just autopilot after Lucario hit 40%.

I think it's a 60:40 at in Fox's favor because of the following:

-Out camps Lucario
-Can pressure Lucario pretty hard
-Heavily punishes Lucario on whiffs
-Will ruin Lucario's recovery with Shine
-Kills Lucario at fairly low kill percents (95-110%)

Fox, beats Lucario, but it isn't severe.

55:45
60:40 at worst.

Also, stages really don't matter too much. They have a similar stagelist. Just ban Japes all day.

Lucario's should go to somewhere like SV, Lylat or YI just to put as many obstacles in Fox's way. Oh and the reason I say pick SV, is because of how little it is. Lucario would do much better against Fox if he doesn't have to trek across a stage.
 

Adamated

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OH YEAH!!! Fizzle plays Lucario I forgot... I play with him at weeklies every so often. But still he doesnt go cario much on me, but when we do he always moans and groans about it so idk lol.

Crifer: dont always assume that the attacs that are being talked about are being compared to each other as far as who would win if they were thrown at the same time. It's assumed that the attacks are going to be used at a time that i will hit or have a good chance of hitting.

But i do agree about the Foxacopters, and fair is def. a pain to us of the edge.

And since no one responded to the DI question... I believe that you want to di down and towards us or down and away, but since we go up and forward (mostly) di'ing up is bad. It mainly just depends on if its a full hop with momentum boosting or if its a sh/fh without the momentum boost, because we have more directional control if not boosted.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Um, we did not even discuss the match-up that deeply I think its hard to really say what the numbers are at the moment. You guys did not even tell us how to DI your FAir.

If you were to force numbers out of us I would say that this is 50:50 at worst for Lucario.
 

Adamated

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Um, we did not even discuss the match-up that deeply I think its hard to really say what the numbers are at the moment. You guys did not even tell us how to DI your FAir..
And since no one responded to the DI question... I believe that you want to di down and towards us or down and away, but since we go up and forward (mostly) di'ing up is bad. It mainly just depends on if its a full hop with momentum boosting or if its a sh/fh without the momentum boost, because we have more directional control if not boosted.

>.> 55:45 Fox imo
 

phi1ny3

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Meh I don't like it because it reminds me too much of the Falco MU, except more killpower.

I honestly want to know if Fox relies more on bair oos (ala falco baiting) or trying uair oos, I have a feeling Lucario's fullhop/vertical zoning game won't get contested if it's smart, but how well does uair do as a quick reactionary aerial? It looks a tad too slow to be a SH juggling tool, but I dunno :\.

I say it's 45:55 Fox's favor. Don't get grabbed, or you eat 48% (uthrow CG + bthrow/dthrow to finish off)

I agree you want some cramped space so fox can't run away so much.
 

Zhamy

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I honestly want to know if Fox relies more on bair oos (ala falco baiting) or trying uair oos
Bair OoS is okay, but Fox's playstyle is different from Falco. Uair OoS is very unsafe unless autocancelled.
 

Fizzle_Boy

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OH YEAH!!! Fizzle plays Lucario I forgot... I play with him at weeklies every so often. But still he doesnt go cario much on me, but when we do he always moans and groans about it so idk lol..
We haven't played in 6 months!:laugh: During the summer you'll probably get to see my Lucario....sooner or later. But you're right, I don't use him often in friendlies.
 

Adamated

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We haven't played in 6 months!:laugh: During the summer you'll probably get to see my Lucario....sooner or later. But you're right, I don't use him often in friendlies.
Lol, I'm pumped haha. I havent played in forever and i come back to sinclair and I'm ethan now lol. Since he's not there I really dont have much of a challenge.

Anywho.... I still say 55:45 fox... and I move that we go on to stages
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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Stages...

I dun like FD

You guys probably don't like Lylat.

We don't like Halberd

You probably don't like Yoshi's (short stage room + wallcling boost is helpful I guess)
 

C.R.Z

Smash Lord
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Stages...

I dun like FD

You guys probably don't like Lylat.

We don't like Halberd

You probably don't like Yoshi's (short stage room + wallcling boost is helpful I guess)
we like FD

we dont mind lylat

we like halberd

we hate yoshi's island
 

Conviction

Human Nature
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1st part=meh (we can recover its just we are forced to land on stage when on the right side.)
2nd part= really good
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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lol it's that bad, no wonder. I was guessing whether he might have a run n' camp game there, but then again taking one of your best killers and wrecking it and also giving a quasi- aerial superior stage together isn't very forgiving I guess :p

I also think Fox would do reasonably well on Delphino with all those long stretches of space to out maneuver and the ceiling is usually VERY LOW on that stage.
 
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