Match-up Export #11: Pikachu | In-Depth Discussion

[knuckles213]

Shine stalling....???

I'd say handle pika like we do IC's
RUN FOR YOUR LIFE !!!!
Camp & run, camp & run like thats all you know (squidward voice)

gonna have to agree with this guy; their is nothing you can do. Pick a stage that pikachu can't grab you easily and remeber to CAMP, LAZER, & RUN

 

[Kuares]

But if you derp and make a mistake it's a death from just the 1 grab.

From what I've seen and experienced, most Pika's never get the death part off. They either drop the chaingrab somehow or you can airdodge their upsmash. The footstool->QA->Jab->Fsmash I've seen work and not work.

But yeah, the mentality should be an extreme "facing Falco" mindset. But unlike Falco, they're solely wanting the grab, so if you're coming down from the air to them the plan is to wait for you to land and give hugs so do something stupid like Firefox or Illusion away. If they're shielding waiting for you to do something, that's when you just Ftilt them away.

Past the CG part, the match up is pretty standard.


I'd go FD over battlefield personally, mostly because I don't have good experiences on that stage and run away is easier for me on large stages. Smashville's the best choice though as Tkd said.

 

[TKD]

discourage your opponents from playing pikachu by camping them hardcore. they should never grab you below 53%.

 

[Rizk18]

You mean above 53.

 

[Lightning93]

They should never grab you below 53%, Rizk.

 

[Rizk18]

How come? I thought that when you are above that percent the cg wont work? Explain please.

 

[C.J.]

That's... the point?

Are you at 48%? Yes? You can be CG'd. Is 48 below 53? Yes. Ergo, you should be camping like a mofo when you are below 53% so you don't get grabbed.

Or the opposite side:

Are you at 68%? Yes? You can't be CG'd. Is 68 below 53? No. Ergo you can get grabbed and not have it be the end of the world.

 

[Rizk18]

This is confusing as hell. Why would a Pikachu grab you above 53%? That's around where the CG won't work. If they grab you below that the CG WILL work. You guys smoking or..?

 

[Kuares]

This is confusing as hell. Why would a Pikachu grab you above 53%? That's around where the CG won't work. If they grab you below that the CG WILL work. You guys smoking or..?

At some point if Fox is playing right, Pika'll have to accept the fact he won't be able to grab at those percents and will move onto KO'ing him the normal way?

Because shield is a really good move that leads to grabs on miss-spaced moves.

+10% yo

 

[C.J.]

Because shield loses to grab? Why does anyone grab anyone ev


I just realized, lol

TKD is saying, as a fox player you should make it so that pika can never grab you below 53%.

I think you read it as a pika player thinking that they shouldn't.

 

[Rizk18]

Cj made it clear. TKD should've said you should never get grabbed below 53 percent lol, not that they should never grab you below 53. I thought he was sayings Pikas should never grab below 53 lol.



Edit: I could see this being only -2, even -1 on certain stages.

 

[Elite Cowdung]

auto lose if both ppl are good. fox just dies

 

[TKD]

i wrote that pika should never grab you, but of course he'll try. his unfinished fair and his uair combo into grab i think. maybe utilt does it too. just more reasons to play gayer. i wish i had a way to practice this match-up and learn if it's actually that close to impossible.

 

[C.R.Z]

i wrote that pika should never grab you, but of course he'll try. his unfinished fair and his uair combo into grab i think. maybe utilt does it too. just more reasons to play gayer. i wish i had a way to practice this match-up and learn if it's actually that close to impossible.

its not impossible, far from it

if theres platforms and you can play fox effectively pika cant win on netural stages with platforms (even FD it is very difficult).

i play pika all the time

 

[TKD]

Interesting. Keep uair to grab and unfinished fair to grab in mind, as well as cg to footstool to thunder please.

 

[C.R.Z]

Interesting. Keep uair to grab and unfinished fair to grab in mind, as well as cg to footstool to thunder please.

yeah i know this ^_^

 

[TKD]

nair trades with pika's uair and you can predict and SDI the fair to air-jump after, right?

 

[C.R.Z]

nair trades with pika's uair and you can predict and SDI the fair to air-jump after, right?

would have to double check the first one but the second one is correct yes.

 

[fox67890]

This may be somewhat of an extreme bump, but do you think halberd does good as a CP against pika?


I just thought that maybe you could let the stage purposely damage you to get above chain grabbing percents.

Just a thought.

 

[C.R.Z]

This may be somewhat of an extreme bump, but do you think halberd does good as a CP against pika?


I just thought that maybe you could let the stage purposely damage you to get above chain grabbing percents.

Just a thought.

yeah that could work, but you would have to run away most of the time and/or stand on the slants. thats if your not confident in your abilities.

 

[Jet300]

Fox vs pikachu OMG. This MU looks impossible to win.
But, Foxes have to zone Pika**** and counter pick him with Pictochat. Sooo i'll say -3.

 

[fox67890]

yeah that could work, but you would have to run away most of the time and/or stand on the slants. thats if your not confident in your abilities.

Do slants stop the chaingrab from working?
I previously thought that it only doesn't work on the SV platform.

 

[C.R.Z]

Do slants stop the chaingrab from working?
I previously thought that it only doesn't work on the SV platform.

some locks like shieks dont work on slants as fox touches the ground. you would need to test if it messes up pikas chain grab, i never have.

 

[EthereaL]

I think it's amazing how game-changing people think a chaingrab is. By that logic, ICs are +3 over everyone.

I think that Fox is -2 against Pikachu.

Lasers force Pikachu to approach, QAC can be Utilted on reaction, and Pikachu loses in the air.

Pikachu has a few disjointed ground attacks, easy gimps, and a 50-100% chaingrab that only works if Fox is under 53%.

Fox starts killing with usmash at about 90%. Pikachu starts killing at about 120% (note: not counting shoddy DI from an Utilt / gimp).

 

[Sarix]

From my own experience with the Fox vs Pikachu MU , I definitely agree that is is quite ugly for Fox. I find it best to play extremely on the defensive via camping, spacing the little rat away, and bait & punish games until out of CG percent, that grab puts Fox into hot water way to fast to take any risks. Post 53% I'd still retain the defensive game because Pikachu has pretty good close range pressure game and Fox can have trouble breaking out of close range pressure; but it is safer to attempt approaches without being punished to kill percent.

Overall I agree that this is in Pika's favor by 70:30 or +3. If the Fox is really good at spacing and avoiding that grab the MU can be a -2 for him, but not until after 53%

 

[C.R.Z]

-2 after 53%? LOL

 

[fox67890]

Really long read ahead, but i think it's important.

Eh, I feel it's a bad MU, but I don't think it's -3.

If it's on FD though, it probably is -3. If that ever happens, I advise playing them the same way TKD played in this video. There's a pretty decent chance you're going to lose on that stage.

On other stages though? Here's my advice

Pika's CG only works from 0%-53%(um, at least I think that was the number. It's somewhere in the 50s though).

Pika can play this MU two ways:

Option 1) play regularly and only CG if there is an opportunity. If he plays this way, just laser and platform camp when necessary. You're a fast character. Use your speed to escape when possible and laser. Although he can duck them, you should still get a few in (If you know how to "rain Laser", kudos to you). If you ever feel in danger, just go to a platform. The most he can do is shark there for damage, as he cant CG. Before 53%, he'll most likely get more damage than you will, but that's ok. Afterwards, you rack up damage faster than he does and kill earlier. Eat Tjolts if you want btw. Once you get above 53%, the MU is probably even, maybe even slightly in our favor (emphasis on maybe). If pika plays this way, he really shouldn't be landing that CG, which would take away the whole point of calling it -3.

Option 2) only hunt for the CG. Before you actually say that this is a good thing, that's highly debatable. You can bait him, yes, but any failed attempts and you get might get CGed. In fact, assuming that Esam played this MU the way normal pikas would, then the pika is likely to chose this option; don't underestimate this option, because it's effective. How should you handle this option? Here's my advice:

The first thing you must recognize in this option is imaginary pressure. Remember, pika only wants that CG with this option. So...where could you not get CGed? Bingo, platforms! Let's say Fox is standing on a platform and pika is below him. Many foxes would normally jump away to avoid getting hit. Why immediately do this though? He won't hit you, because if he keeps on doing it, you'll get above CG percents, taking away the "-3" part of the MU. Full hopping onto the platform with pika is a bad idea, because it's easily punishable. Play calm in this situation. He won't shark in this situation because the CG won't eventually work then. You could just stand on that platform and he'll just wait till you do something. If he hits you, then he chose option 1, where you shouldn't be getting CGed. If he still continue to wait, run of the platform when you feel ready and get some laser damage in. But... lasers can only do so much damage right? Well remember, pika won't hit you, so your in the advantage zone. On top of that, when you actually do physical damage, you should be getting A LOT with this option...

This is because of one reason: pika doesn't want to hit you. Let's say you dash attack someone. Normally, you should be wary of three things:

1. Choice 1: can you utlit before they can do anything?
2. Choice 2: will they attack you back?
3. Choice 3: will they airdodge?

Against pika though? Obviously if you can utilt immediately after, then do so, free damage. What if you can't though? That leaves pika with choice two and three. Remember, he won't hit you back. He's only got choice three left, which is air-dodge. You can punish that very easily. And you'd be surprised how much you could get out of a dash attack (TKD did that throughout the round, so it's just an example. You should see what he does to Marth... In this way, the CG actually works against pika, because it limits his defensive options for protection. Out of everyone in the entire cast, pika is the most vulnerable to fox's combos once you actually hit him, because he can only airdodge if he choses option 2.

With that aside, here's some other information.

• when you're on a platform, the uair>footstool> grab doesn't work because you touch the ground too quickly. Full hop fair(since you're on a platform)>grab shouldn't be comboing because there are a lot of hits to SDI and get away
• Pika shouldn't be edgeuarding too well. Thunder is cool, but you can shine stall to wait it out when you are offstage.
• You know how we can grab release>upsmash MK if it's an air release? The same applies to pika. He travels far away, so you need some space to set it up. Your speed allows you to connect the upsmash. Fox can force air-releases on certain characters if he grabs them out of the air and immediately pummels, as shown here. Hard to land? Not really on pika with option 2. Remember, you'll be seeing a lot of air-dodges from him with option 2. Bait an airdodge and do this technique as he lands (he travels a distance from the air release though, so he might land on a platform, depending on where you grabbed him from). Getting kills on pika can be done on this way, but stay unpredictable
• Similar to MK, Pika can be upsmashed easily when standing on one of BF's platforms. I wonder, if you grab release and he air breaks, but lands on one of BF's platforms, is there enough time to upsmash him? idk
• Just like MK (again?) we could technically upsmash him while he's hanging on the ledge. However, unlike other characters, pika has two special qualities on the ledge. He could get off the ledge the quickest out of everyone (not sure if this includes tethers), but I *think* his ledge invincible wears off quicker than others. This means that if the pika is planking, don't hesitate. Dash upsmash him off the ledge. like a boss
• Almost forgot to say this. Fall though platform bair is good. I'm not sure if pika's crouch affects whether this move lands or not though. This needs testing.
• If pika grabs you below 53% and continues the CG above that, but messes it up later, you can still get CGed. Pika's CG will still work because he grabbed you before 53% and the staleness from the dthrow is still there. If he attacks you after afterwards, it might not work though. This might need some testing.
  

About killing, upsmash is safe on shield *if and only if* you do it while standing. Characters can only shield grab fox's dash upsmash because of the momentum he gets while running. I don't recommend throwing out upsmash while standing still though. However, doing a cross up could set this up. Short hop air dodge> upsmash could also work, but he could grab your landing from the short though. I didn't test it, but perhaps this works out of a walk also.

As for as stages go, stay away from FD. I'll admit it's probably -3 there. I like battlefield, PS1, and halberd. BF helps in camping, which is very important in this MU. Gimmicks from PS1 i think might affect the CG. If you want, you could let the stage purposely damage you on halberd to get above CG percents. The CG doesn't work on SV platform when moving and some parts of Rainbow cruise. Personally though, I wouldn't recommend SV. It feels to crammed to me. Experienced pikas like to end their CG with a footstool>whatever. Iirc, the footstool won't connect on slants, like the slants on lylast.

The thing about this MU, is that if the pika chooses option 2, then there really is no significant difference between an experienced pika and an inexperienced one, since all they both want to do is grab you. So don't be too afraid if you face an experienced pika. If he chooses option 1 though, that could be some trouble... which is why we should discuss this MU when above CG percents.

Of course the MU revolves around the CG, but simply stating it's there isn't too helpful. I think we should rediscuss this MU along with ICs, since fox has ways to deal with both of them now. I personally never felt Sheik was -3, but only -2. I think we should discuss that MU as well.

I haven't played this MU in a few months, but the last time I have, I did win it against a pika that was somewhat experienced. I know this sounds bazaar, but this MU could actually be -1. For now though, I'll say -2. imo of course

I hope you enjoyed my essay!

edit: look out for his fair in between combos though, as it does combo in grab. Keep in mind though, you can't fasfall immediately out of hit stun, or whatever it's called
double edit: If you dash attack a landing pika that uses fair, we seem to beat out his fair. Pretty cool

 

[Sukai]

I think everyone is over analyzing things.

Just stay the hell away from him. Manage your movement so you don't have to commit to blocking/reflecting the projectile and just dance around him with lasers. Attack when you can, don't be reckless. Play on any stage with platforms, it's easier on Fox due to the maneuverability.

Considering how easy it is to grab someone in this game, I say it's 8-2. I've seen and played 7-3 match ups, they don't look like this.

 

[EthereaL]

Sukai, according to your logic, ICs are 9-1 over every character in the game.

 

[TKD]

Manage your movement so you don't have to commit to blocking/reflecting the projectile and just dance around him with lasers.

Reflecting is good. Fox can hop immediately after reflecting most projectiles in SSBB.

Really long read ahead, but i think it's important.

If it's on FD though, it probably is -3. If that ever happens, I advise playing them the same way TKD played in this video. There's a pretty decent chance you're going to lose on that stage.

Fox players should ban FD or switch characters there. I don't think Fox should be able to win vs Pika or IC there.

Pika's CG only works from 0%-53%(um, at least I think that was the number. It's somewhere in the 50s though).

53% is safe.

Pika can play this MU two ways:

Option 1) play regularly and only CG if there is an opportunity.
Option 2) only hunt for the CG.

The second is the scary one (crouch as much as possible and fish for either a time out or a cg). The first way...I don't think it even works. Them approaching even though you're platform camping?

"Before 53%, he'll most likely get more damage than you will, but that's ok. Eat Tjolts if you want btw".

I DON'T RECOMMEND DOING THIS. If Pikachu's in the lead, he doesn't need to approach. Again, he should fight when he can grab you, and aim for a time out the rest of the match. But he can't just make time if he's not in the lead. This is why you're set if you deal 53% on Pikachu before he does. You can keep camping as usual, but the opponent is forced to deal those 53% back. Having the lead throughout the first 53% is very important.

This is because of one reason: pika doesn't want to hit you. Let's say you dash attack someone. Normally, you should be wary of three things:

1. Choice 1: can you utlit before they can do anything?
2. Choice 2: will they attack you back?
3. Choice 3: will they airdodge?

I wouldn't take advantage of momentum below 53%. Even if you can land a huge string, miss your timing once and it's cg time. And it's very easy to miss your timing.

And you'd be surprised how much you could get out of a dash attack...

Check your link again. The string came out of a connected down air, not a dash attack. The dash attack was only part of the string.

I can explain the combo fully:
1. Connected dair
2. Comboed into utilt
3. Wait (for him to use a landing option so I can continue my string)
3.5 (this is where you thought the combo started) Saw Falco activate dair. The combination of his landing cool-down and small range leaves a big window to enter with dash attack. So, Dash attack.
4. Wait. Expected another aerial.
4.5 The air-dodge into me was too unexpected to react to (so I didn't grab). Expected a spot-dodge afterwards. So I used SH Dair as a counter. It connected.
5. Basic utilt from a connected dair.
6. Moved around, attempted a powerblock vs a possible dair landing.
6.5 Dair was used and the powerblock was achieved, but it looked like Falco would land BEHIND Fox so I didn't react (idea: at such a close call, utilt from powerblock will work for sure).
7 Instead, I short hopped through Falco (going through was safer than being in front of him throughout the hop) and tomahawked (a tomahawk is an empty landing into grab).
8. Pummels (% allowed it) into dthrow
8.5 Free lasers (the lasers were used because I couldn't reach Falco with anything else).
9. Wait for the recovery option (a phantasm would have been met with an utilt, but...)
9.5 He air-dodged onto the stage. The air-dodge was activated so early (also the air-jump went so high over the ledge) that I could easily react to it with a dash attack.
10. I had just punished an air-dodge so I didn't expect one. Also, I had waited for his landing option several times throughout my strings so I guessed an immediate attack would be unexpected.
10.5 Usmash. KO.

I like that his stock was taken by 2 strings. But you'd be surprised how often that happens (vs pretty much everyone but MK). This is why I always tell Fox players that they should end the combos they've begun. The odds are in your favor throughout the whole string.

I think this is the first time I explain a combo...maybe I'll start a combo analysis thread.

Full hop fair(since you're on a platform)>grab shouldn't be comboing because there are a lot of hits to SDI and get away

Yay!

You know how we can grab release>upsmash MK if it's an air release? The same applies to pika.

True.

Fox can force air-releases on certain characters if he grabs them out of the air and immediately pummels, as shown here. Bait an airdodge and do this technique as he lands.

Nope. This technique applies when you grab the opponent out of the air. Characters aren't vulnerable during air-dodge landings until they touch the ground. The only exception would be if their invincibility ran out sooner, but it's far easier to straight up usmash such a sloppy air-dodge.

I wonder, if you grab release and he air breaks, but lands on one of BF's platforms, is there enough time to upsmash him? idk

There isn't, against any character. Immobility from release ends upon landing.

Just like MK (again?) we could technically upsmash him while he's hanging on the ledge. However, unlike other characters, pika has two special qualities on the ledge. He could get off the ledge the quickest out of everyone (not sure if this includes tethers), but I *think* his ledge invincible wears off quicker than others. This means that if the pika is planking, don't hesitate. Dash upsmash him off the ledge. like a boss

Actually, this can work against a very sloppy Pika. Pika can let go of the ledge quicker, but that difference is also removed from his ledge invincibility frames. If they seem to consistently stay on the ledge for too long (probably only pocket pikas will do this of course), usmash is a possibility. This is very situational, though.

Almost forgot to say this. Fall though platform bair is good.

It's not. Pika can dash through you and pivot grab if you're too close horizontally. If you're too far horizontally (or he simply walks away a bit) and your bair whiffs, he can dash grab you during landing cool-down because the cool-down is quite long.

If pika grabs you below 53% and continues the CG above that, but messes it up later, you can still get CGed. Pika's CG will still work because he grabbed you before 53% and the staleness from the dthrow is still there. If he attacks you after afterwards, it might not work though. This might need some testing.

You could test this, but they really shouldn't drop the cg. I'd just make sure and wait until I'm hit once or twice more before knowing I'm safe.

About killing, upsmash is safe on shield

It's not. They can unblock and dashgrab us. The cool-down for usmash is ridiculous.

Iirc, the footstool won't connect on slants, like the slants on lylat.

I'm pretty sure it works because we're in tumble, and tumble counts as being in the air.

I know this sounds bizarre, but this MU could actually be -1. For now though, I'll say -2. imo of course

Going by logic, I can only assume that Pika counters Fox (7/3+), and that Foxes should avoid playing the match-up in tournament, at least in FD.


My input on this match-up is to switch chars on FD (but please don't 2nd something like Wario who's also countered by another char). Fox players have never been 1-char ponies anyway.

I've explained the 53% thing and camping but not how to camp.

It's pretty much staying on platforms and punishing hop approaches. Every time you get to do it for free, you can blaster or ground-hug blaster. You can shield-grab his short hop uair from platforms that are battlefield's height. On Smashville's platform, there's no full cg (fthrow cg will work if he's facing the right way though; ridiculous LOL). Make sure he doesn't knock you out of the platform into tumble (from a connected hit or you blocking with your back facing the end of the platform). Never continue a string when you're below 53% if you're not 100% sure your hit will connect. Punish any dumb thing he does. Try to keep the lead. Once you hit 53% (this is the initial aim every stock), give him a beating.

This match-up is impossible in FD if the opponent can footstool from dthrow consistently (I don't know if anyone can, though).

As for the match-up odds themselves? I'd have to practice a lot with ESAM to decide that, as I've only played this match-up twice as Fox in tourney. I lost once and won once, but it was a lame pocket pika. I don't know the match-up, but 30/70 sounds about right IN THEORY. Something like 10/90 on FD.

 

[fox67890]

Idk if you'll read this in this thread, but I'll ask anyway~

About camping against pika, I'm a bit confused about what you mean. When we're on a platform and they're below us (and/or to the side), what exactly should we be doing? Should we run of the platform and laser, or be doing something else? I have a question about punish short hops on BF platforms, but I'll ask in your thread since it's more general to just the pika MU.

I never thought about pika not approaching though if under 50... Damn this MU :\

The lock on downward slopes (not the cg, just the lock) might not work because it apparently doesn't work on wolf (at least, that's what it says here in the MU summary). I'd be lying if I said I tested it with fox, but I figured it would work the same way as it does with wolf,since it's the same chaingrab.

 

[knuckles213]

well for this MU this vid is kinda old, but its a way of winning and giving an idea on how to deal with pika

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_PfZxQo_3U&feature=relmfu

also stage wise I'd say you best bet is to take pika to BF, SV, LC, BS, RC, or PC (if legal)