Match-up Export #11: Pikachu | In-Depth Discussion

[AvaricePanda]

Fox is probably one of the best characters as far as running away and tacking on percent, but there IMO two sides to camping. One is being able to force an approach, and two is making it hard for your opponent to approach you (and combined with one it gets annoying). Example, Fox can "force" approaches with lasers and tack on damage but has no real way of shutting characters out of approaching. Falco doesn't tack on as much damage with lasers but because it's harder to approach through those he kind of does and gets benefits from doing damage by shutting you out. Olimar can do both and is extra annoying.

IMO the second facet is universally more important than the first (i mean obviously you have to have some of the first to be a good camper). Sure Fox can force approaches but without a good way to repel approached at the same time it's not as big of a deal to approach him as compared to characters like Falco, Olimar, or Snake.

also what moves does Fox have to avoid getting grabbed? The only ones I can think of are B-air, which is kind of telegraphable because it's hard to time, and like full-hop N-air.

 

[4Biddin]

Fox is probably one of the best characters as far as running away and tacking on percent, but there IMO two sides to camping. One is being able to force an approach, and two is making it hard for your opponent to approach you (and combined with one it gets annoying). Example, Fox can "force" approaches with lasers and tack on damage but has no real way of shutting characters out of approaching. Falco doesn't tack on as much damage with lasers but because it's harder to approach through those he kind of does and gets benefits from doing damage by shutting you out. Olimar can do both and is extra annoying.

IMO the second facet is universally more important than the first (i mean obviously you have to have some of the first to be a good camper). Sure Fox can force approaches but without a good way to repel approached at the same time it's not as big of a deal to approach him as compared to characters like Falco, Olimar, or Snake.

also what moves does Fox have to avoid getting grabbed? The only ones I can think of are B-air, which is kind of telegraphable because it's hard to time, and like full-hop N-air.

Foxes speed is why he can camp so well.

Ex. Fox is lazoring then piki approaches fox SHAD away then runs to the other side of the stage rinse and repeat

(this is in lamest terms)

in other words its hard to catch fox and while your trying to catch him your taking damage

 

[C.R.Z]

Fox is probably one of the best characters as far as running away and tacking on percent, but there IMO two sides to camping. One is being able to force an approach, and two is making it hard for your opponent to approach you (and combined with one it gets annoying). Example, Fox can "force" approaches with lasers and tack on damage but has no real way of shutting characters out of approaching. Falco doesn't tack on as much damage with lasers but because it's harder to approach through those he kind of does and gets benefits from doing damage by shutting you out. Olimar can do both and is extra annoying.

IMO the second facet is universally more important than the first (i mean obviously you have to have some of the first to be a good camper). Sure Fox can force approaches but without a good way to repel approached at the same time it's not as big of a deal to approach him as compared to characters like Falco, Olimar, or Snake.

also what moves does Fox have to avoid getting grabbed? The only ones I can think of are B-air, which is kind of telegraphable because it's hard to time, and like full-hop N-air.

I disagree,characters may be able to make you use a little bit more effort to approach but no ones can stop a character approaching, the main reason being is because you have so many options for getting close to a character.if falco is shooting double lazers, he cant stop you from short hop air dodging through them or power shielding them or just jumping over them altogether.It is not going to keep a player back anymore if lazers stun you or not, the objective is still the same, to get them to stop.What your saying may be the case if we could only dash or walk to approach and had to take the hits.

fox has nair (lc and ac), drill, bair, ftilt and fair (when opponent is on platform) .if these moves are used correctly, it is possible to avoid being grabbed altogether.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I never said anyone could stop people from approaching altogether, I just said it makes it harder to approach. Yes you can jump over lasers, powershield through them, or SHAD through them, or whatever; point is he's limiting your approaching options and knows the smart ones you'll probably do, making you much easier to read (plus lasers do damage so that's also a benefit). Fox tacks on damage with his lasers but without the stun they aren't able to limit approaching options by any means; if anything it gives the opponent an extra option to exploit your jump when you're lasering and attack you.

but anyway that's irrelevant.

D-air isn't ever safe unless it's on hit (I mean obviously lol) but even if you D-air behind Pika's shield he may not grab you but he can still hit you. F-tilt seems too risky and would only be safe on regular shield. With only B-air and N-air as moves you can throw out that are safe from being grabbed, you don't have too many options for approaching or defense. I can't see the match-up being close to even with these severely limited options.

 

[GUARD]

I have not seen this stated previously (sorry if it was).... but Pikachew CAN NOT chaingrab Fox when we are at 54% and up. (his grab must NOT be stale). I am aware that Pikachew MIGHT U-smash us but when were at 54% and up, we may air dogde RIGHT BEFORE the U-smash hits us...... so in this case we may only depend on the mindgames and same for Pikachew.

This is not so bad accually since it would mean that Pikachew deals VERY LITTLE more damage to us than the likes of Falco's chaingrab > posible smash or D-air combo.

As a Fox main....I kinda got used to the fact that some characters juggle or chaingrab Fox very well.........its the `AFTER THAT` that matters for Fox.....(and trying not to get juggled or grabed.lol)

So I`ll say it again.....my goal is to NEVER (kinda) approach untill Fox is at 54% and up.

 

[Kuares]

Bump and such, tell me what still should be added and what more would be helpful. Or if you have a suggestion on how to write a particular section better.

Spoiler

KEY POINTS:

A. Advantages

• Reflector reflects(lol) thunder and thunder jolt.
• Pika's KO moves are predictable except for Nair.
• Pika is light, so kill percentage is lower.

B. Disadvantages

• Chain Grab, Fox can be grabbed between 0-54% for 100%.
• Small target, crawl, and speed makes it hard to laser.
• Can't attempt Up-tilt lock without huge risk.

C. Summary
This match-up should not be as fast paced as other ones. Fox can't rush in or else he'll get grabbed. The match revolves around Pikachu getting the grab and Fox not getting grabbed and dealing out damage until kill percentages.

If the stage has them, use the platforms. You can't get grabbed in the air, and Fox's jump height is more than Pikachu's so run around platforms a lot.

Things to note about the chain grab. It only works between 0-54% and that 10 seconds of grabbing adds around 65%. Pikachu's grab range isn't stellar but his U-air can lead to fair that leads to grab. Fox can escape the chain grab at 100%, but Pikachu can end the madness any time with an Upsmash. Though, if the Fox is watching he can dodge the smash with air-dodge.

IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:

You can't get grabbed in the air but Pikachu does have some options there so watch out. AC fair and bair won't work on a grounded Pikachu so Nair instead.​

Ground Game:

Poke Pikachu's shield with F-tilts. Don't stay close and risk losing a stock to the grab. After the CG%, you can start going in for normal Fox stuff.​

Approach:

Don't approach until after 54% or when you can do something and not get punished.​

Defense:

Power shield or reflect thunder jolts. Use Fox's speed to run around platforms and wait for a chance to attack.​

Camping Game:

Fox can't laser a crawling Pikachu and Pikachu can't T.jolt camp because of Fox's reflector.​

Edge Game:

Pikachu has a very good recovery of either Side-B or Quick Attack. If you try to edgegame, you should use Nair.​

Surviving:

SDI out of multi-hit attacks(Dsmash, Fair). Avoid getting hit by Nair at high percents.​

Killing:

Upsmash kills faster than usual because of Pika's light weight. Bair will also probably be fresh most of the match so that's also a good option.​

Frame Data:

Pikachu's Frame Data ​

Stages:

Stagestrike would look like this​

*Pokemon Stadium 1
**From the Pikachu Q/A
Smashville, the platform movement disrupts the chaingrab so if you get caught there, you can wait for the platform to move.

​

Videos:
Pikachu's CG Explination
Match Vs. Pikachu

Things to find out/get:

• How Quick Attack Combo's Affect Fox
• How to SDI Fair as to not get grabbed
• What percent to go for an Upsmash
• If people would play this match-up instead of hypothetically talking about it or choosing Metaknight/Marth

 

[RPK]

It is kinda frustrating having to play perfect the entire time though after you get grabbed as well as before you get grabbed. If the Pikachu does it right, it should take you immediately to 112% I think, in addition to putting you up in the air. From there you can be killed with one move. either Usmash, Fsmash, Nair, or Thunder. I love Fox, but seriously, I cant see this match up being close to even. I still see it as a 70-30

 

[C.R.Z]

Bump and such, tell me what still should be added and what more would be helpful. Or if you have a suggestion on how to write a particular section better.

Spoiler

KEY POINTS:

A. Advantages

• Reflector reflects(lol) thunder and thunder jolt.
• Pika's KO moves are predictable except for Nair.
• Pika is light, so kill percentage is lower.

B. Disadvantages

• Chain Grab, Fox can be grabbed between 0-54% for 100%.
• Small target, crawl, and speed makes it hard to laser.
• Can't attempt Up-tilt lock without huge risk.

C. Summary
This match-up should not be as fast paced as other ones. Fox can't rush in or else he'll get grabbed. The match revolves around Pikachu getting the grab and Fox not getting grabbed and dealing out damage until kill percentages.

If the stage has them, use the platforms. You can't get grabbed in the air, and Fox's jump height is more than Pikachu's so run around platforms a lot.

Things to note about the chain grab. It only works between 0-54% and that 10 seconds of grabbing adds around 65%. Pikachu's grab range isn't stellar but his U-air can lead to fair that leads to grab. Fox can escape the chain grab at 100%, but Pikachu can end the madness any time with an Upsmash. Though, if the Fox is watching he can dodge the smash with air-dodge.

IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:

You can't get grabbed in the air but Pikachu does have some options there so watch out. AC fair and bair won't work on a grounded Pikachu so Nair instead.​

Ground Game:

Poke Pikachu's shield with F-tilts. Don't stay close and risk losing a stock to the grab. After the CG%, you can start going in for .​

Approach:

Don't approach until after 54% or when you can do something and not get punished.​

Defense:

Power shield or reflect thunder jolts. Use Fox's speed to run around platforms and wait for a chance to attack.​

Camping Game:

Fox can't laser a crawling Pikachu and Pikachu can't T.jolt camp because of Fox's reflector.​

Edge Game:

Pikachu has a very good recovery of either Side-B or Quick Attack. If you try to edgegame, you should use Nair.​

Surviving:

SDI out of multi-hit attacks(Dsmash, Fair). Avoid getting hit by Nair at high percents.​

Killing:

Upsmash kills faster than usual because of Pika's light weight. Bair will also probably be fresh most of the match so that's also a good option.​

Frame Data:

Pikachu's Frame Data ​

Stages:

Stagestrike would look like this​

*Pokemon Stadium 1
**From the Pikachu Q/A

​

Videos:
Pikachu's CG Explination
Match Vs. Pikachu

Things to find out/get:

• How Quick Attack Combo's Affect Fox
• How to SDI Fair as to not get grabbed
• What percent to go for an Upsmash
• If people would play this match-up instead of hypothetically talking about it or choosing Metaknight/Marth

this is really useful, thanks alot. i know no one has paid attention but its alot of help to the comun



btw, since the chain grab only works if we are 54% or lower then couldnt we just run and camp untill we hit 54%? take the jolts and thunders. camp the smashvile platform, play gay?

 

[-Mars-]

this is really useful, thanks alot. i know no one has paid attention but its alot of help to the comun



btw, since the chain grab only works if we are 54% or lower then couldnt we just run and camp untill we hit 54%? take the jolts and thunders. camp the smashvile platform, play gay?

Yes. But nothing is keeping the Pika player from simply not using Tjolt.

Camping the SV platform also doesn't automatically mean you won't get grabbed. It's very easy to platform cancel into a grab on the SV platform.

 

[Conviction]

What he is saying is the platform's movement breaks the CG even if he does land the grab.

You should really be playing the run-away game here. Lasers and platform camping, waiting for pika to make mistakes.

 

[Hanzhou]

Majority of the time Pikachu is prolly gonna live you with BF maybe imo... Glad nj has no pikas

 

[Kuares]

This is pretty much how I played against a local Pikachu. Platform camp, short hop laser, run away. Add a few F-tilts and get hit by Pikachu chasing in the platforms abit and eventually I get enough percent from his aerials to go in for the kill.

 

[Rizk18]

Definatley 50:50

 

[TKD]

edited post out

 

[SpliziT]

Yeah I always try to play this matchup like a Falco. Tons of SHTL's, side B's, Ftilts, and a ton of different things I wouldn't normally do on other characters to really keep it unpredictable. I don't think this matchup is as bad as people say it is. You just need to practice strategies to make it work.

EDIT: Also have good use of the reflector to enhance camping capabilities.

 

[Rizk18]

Yeah I always try to play this matchup like a Falco. Tons of SHTL's, side B's, Ftilts, and a ton of different things I wouldn't normally do on other characters to really keep it unpredictable. I don't think this matchup is as bad as people say it is. You just need to practice strategies to make it work.

EDIT: Also have good use of the reflector to enhance camping capabilities.

"You just need to practice strategies to make it work."

Even though this may be true, that logic can be used in ANY matchup and referring to ANY character. This MU is still really bad. 65-35 anyone?

 

[Lightning93]

I actually have no opinion on this matchup anymore given the new information.

All I can say is that Rizk, the logic you're referring too doesn't work for every matchup, sadly enough. Ganon vs Shiek, for example. There's literally nothing Ganon can do if Shiek sets up properly. I think we can all agree however, Fox has some very notable tools for dealing with Pika's grab range.

 

[Wilmenz]

Can't Pikachu crouch under Fox's lasers?

 

[SpliziT]

"You just need to practice strategies to make it work."

Even though this may be true, that logic can be used in ANY matchup and referring to ANY character. This MU is still really bad. 65-35 anyone?

Sure ok. You get my point though.

 

[Lightning93]

If Pikachu crouches completely still, yes. But that pretty much gives Fox a mobility advantage. It's not easy to turn around from a crouching position.

 

[Rizk18]

I think we're ready to put the 65-35 ratio on this.

 

[Kuares]

From what I was talking to a Pikachu main at a tourney a while ago, he said that when he was in the air and Fox was below, it felt his moves were either out ranged(N-air) or out sped(Dair) by Fox's aerials. He also had trouble getting the grab due to the way I was playing.

Yeah, reflector does pretty much destroy thunder jolt use. The jump/roll option on the ground after reflection really helps play keep away. Which is what Fox should do in be doing in a lot of Match-ups.

Rizk, it's -3 silly.

 

[SpliziT]

I really really think we should discuss the Kirby matchup. Even TKD said it was a bad MU and I never seen anyone in these forums discuss it.

 

[Conviction]

Pretty convincing stuff going on, does anyone have any vids or something that solify their points?

 

[Rizk18]

From what I was talking to a Pikachu main at a tourney a while ago, he said that when he was in the air and Fox was below, it felt his moves were either out ranged(N-air) or out sped(Dair) by Fox's aerials. He also had trouble getting the grab due to the way I was playing.

Yeah, reflector does pretty much destroy thunder jolt use. The jump/roll option on the ground after reflection really helps play keep away. Which is what Fox should do in be doing in a lot of Match-ups.

Rizk, it's -3 silly.

Lol a -3 equals what? 70-30? I think that's a bit off. 65-35 sounds a little better. Although the chaingrab isn't the only thing, it's also the QAC which is hard to get around with Fox. Anther ***** me using this lol. Also ledge guarding, Pikachu's uair is really good for gimping also.

 

[Kuares]

Pretty convincing stuff going on, does anyone have any vids or something that solify their points?

I wasn't able to get any videos from 2 weeks ago, so I don't have anything to show.

The chaingrab isn't the only thing, QAC is hard to get around with Fox. Anther ***** me using this lol. Also ledge guarding, Pikachu's uair is really good for gimping also.

These things I've not seen. QAC I've never seen overly used much in a match, so I don't see how it shuts Fox down. How does gimping with Uair work?

 

[Rizk18]

These things I've not seen. QAC I've never seen overly used much in a match, so I don't see how it shuts Fox down. How does gimping with Uair work?

I didn't say it shuts him down, just saying that it's a very good against Fox. Maybe it's just Anther, but he does it so well to the point where you get so frustrated. If you play him you will know lol. Gimping with Uair is really quite simple. Once you're off stage, he can throw an Uair at you, depending on where you are.

1st. Middle part or above off screen:

Generally, the Pikachu will Uair with the tip of the tail to try and get an "angle" hit on you, and if that works, there's pretty much no chance of you getting back on stage(depending on what stage you play) and if you happen to get back on the stage, i'm pretty sure you will be eating a F-smash/Thunder/or Nair, maybe even a grab if you're at low%. Although the Uair gimp doesn't generally work that well at low percent but on Fox it would because of how fast he falls.

2nd. Middle-lower part off screen:

This is where the Uair shines(lol). If you are recovering low for some reason, then expect an Uair. If you get directly under the ledge and Pikachu is grabbing the ledge, as you come up with Firefox, you will get gimped by an Uair and Pikachu can even footstool you after the Uair. Smart Pikachus will hit you with Uair while the Firefox is charging to get the guarenteed gimp.

Another way Uair can gimp is if the Pikachu throws out jabs while you are trying to recover back to the ledge, then into an Uair and then his follow-ups.
I hope this helped

This is all from my experience from playing a lot with Anther. Sorry if somethings seems a little off.

 

[RaqTasmeneth]

Controller throw-down syndrome can now occur in other-than campy matches. It may be experienced through a single grab of the Fox.
RARGHH~~~!!!!

XD

 

[zero212]

I haven't seen it in this thread yet but has anyone even considered shine stalling against a pika? from my own expirence it works wonders as long you use your mind while shine stalling.

 

[Lightning93]

Shine stalling in what context?

 

[Robfox]

Shine stalling....???

I'd say handle pika like we do IC's
RUN FOR YOUR LIFE !!!!
Camp & run, camp & run like thats all you know (squidward voice)

 

[zero212]

well in the context i mean avoiding cg's and try to get pika in the air so you can attack him without having the fear of getting grabbed or what i do against pika is let myself get hit until 42 % so they can't do insane damage on me or even kill me with it. (i keep out of grab range though) Then just play the way i normally do. I barely have any IC's mu expirence but i think robfox is right with that run and camp and preferbly on a stage that has (moving) platforms but keep an eye open for dair utilt combo's or nair utilts if possible.

Also from my expirence QAC does not shut fox down as long you keep reading and punishing the QAC's from pika. I do a lot vs a pika i played 2 or 3 times. i believe you can also confuse a pika by clashing the QAC with for example a dash attack. it both cancels out but i think fox is faster to respond to it.

 

[M@v]

This matchup in a nutshell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCI18qAoKq4

 

[Lightning93]

That is so true, brilliant play M@V.

 

[TKD]

Camp from platforms. Fall on him with nair when you're confident or when you have to (make it impossible or very unlikely for shield-grab and pivot grab to work). Blaster when possible.

The dynamic is in your favor if the opponent chases you onto platforms (either willingly or because of percentage disadvantage): every time he tries to reach your platform, he puts himself in the air. If you were above, you can land on him with nair as he reaches the platform below you. If you end up lower than him, it's a great situation because there's a lot of safe approaches available. You don't ever need to risk it if the opponent likes to chase you. The dynamic is not in your favor if the opponent just pokes for % advantage (and succeeds) and then stays still (this is when you "have to" approach, but again, I recommend ungrabbable approaches).

% adv, stock adv, and having >52% @ same/more stock are the most comfortable situations you can have in this match-up.

AGAIN, % adv, stock adv, and having >52% @ same/more stock are the most comfortable situations you can have in this match-up.
This is important to remember. Take care of these situations. They're not to be wasted, reaching them is your goal from the start, and conserving them is your goal after having reached them.

After reaching 53% (I think it was 53%), fight normally. Be conservative, low risk, or however you like to call it. I've found you can calmly plow through Pikachu. The reason I like to go steady/conservative vs Pikachu, is because it's safer or more consistent: that way you have greater chances of taking his first stock first: a very nice advantage to have vs Pikachu.

That's the best way I've found to play this. Oh yeah, you can let Pikachu grab you on Smashville's platform because he can't cg there for long/at all. Switch chars at FD (unless you banned it of course). Otherwise, you need a whole other game plan in FD.

 

[Rizk18]

What if Pikachu just ducks and goes for grabs.

 

[Lightning93]

I think TKD was saying you approach with a shield-grab preventable approach and in order to get the percentage lead. Then position yourself on a platform.

 

[knuckles213]

this is one ****ed up match up (just as bad as IC) where you hope the pika user is terrible with pika. my only defense against pikachu is pick a level that constantly moves, lazer the **** out of that pikachu, grab, and phantasm/fox fire

 

[Conviction]

What if Pikachu just ducks and goes for grabs.

If the pikachu is that linear, you should feel bad to losing to it. Just saying.

This is very bad match-up but it's not like "Derp I do this and you lose"


Tbh, I didn't know people were still discussing this, nothing at all has changed in this matchup.

 

[Rizk18]

If the pikachu is that linear, you should feel bad to losing to it. Just saying.

This is very bad match-up but it's not like "Derp I do this and you lose"


Tbh, I didn't know people were still discussing this, nothing at all has changed in this matchup.

But if you derp and make a mistake it's a death from just the 1 grab.