Match-up Export #11: Pikachu | In-Depth Discussion

[Conviction]

Wait quick question...Teran the Falco player?

 

[KillerJawz]

Yeah, the ex-mod Falco.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah, the ex-mod Falco.

Ouch not the nicest way to put it but note taken.

 

[KillerJawz]

I couldn't have stated it any other way, he is an ex-moderator.

 

[C.R.Z]

YOU WERNT THERE KJ ! YOU WERNT THERE ! i thought teran second pika after a while because he grabbed me more than i normally would have been, so either hes better than you think or i played bad. either way, lazers won it.

 

[Conviction]

YOU WERNT THERE KJ ! YOU WERNT THERE ! i thought teran second pika after a while because he grabbed me more than i normally would have been, so either hes better than you think or i played bad. either way, lazers won it.

Tell him Zero!

 

[KillerJawz]

YOU WERNT THERE KJ ! YOU WERNT THERE ! i thought teran second pika after a while because he grabbed me more than i normally would have been, so either hes better than you think or i played bad. either way, lazers won it.

True, I wasn't. However, various smashers who went to the tournament have told me the story on it.

or i played bad.

As did Teran.

So no, Lazers didn't win it. Don't ride wins against scrub Pikachus.

 

[Conviction]

True, I wasn't. However, various smashers who went to the tournament have told me the story on it, as did Teran.

So no, Lazers didn't win it. Don't ride wins against scrub Pikachus.

Tell em KJ!

 

[KillerJawz]

Tell em KJ!

Hush you xD.

 

[Conviction]

If you weren't a mod I would be something along the lines of...
I WILL NOT BE SILENCED!
but oh wait...you can silence me.

 

[KillerJawz]

Haha! Okay we're getting a tad off topic now, get back to the discussion ^^.

 

[C.R.Z]

anyway it was still hard, but ima scrub so XD

 

[Teran]

Okay now to tell the full story.

Teran went Pikachu in order to gay Cloud, despite having NEVER touched Pikachu before. Teran played the entire match fishing for a grab, doing literally NOTHING else.

That is 100% untrue.

I went Pika and tried to camp him knowing that he wouldn't approach. Unfortunately the the CG ****ed up. I can actually play a half decent Pikachu, I play him in every smash just because. Cloud is just very very good at not getting grabbed lmao. I got desperate in the end because time was running the **** out.

But yeah, I ****ed up the CG and got punished hard, then after that I tried the whole camp thing but it didn't work and he was over me in the damage region.

In the end he actually won via timeout LOL.

Edit: Also KJ, whoever told you such things can go **** themselves, and they aren't really your friend.

as did Teran.

Oh and look I just noticed this.

Flashback bro, I never told you that. I told you how I did the KJ TRIBUTE ZOMG Samus dittos and did a bit of lulzledgestalling and mucking around but apart from that, I didn't actually talk about my tournament matches with you.

So next time KJ, you'll want to not make **** up about what I did because I'll bring you down and do it hard.

Seriously man wtf?

 

[C.R.Z]

That is 100% untrue.

I went Pika and tried to camp him knowing that he wouldn't approach. Unfortunately the the CG ****ed up. I can actually play a half decent Pikachu, I play him in every smash just because. Cloud is just very very good at not getting grabbed lmao. I got desperate in the end because time was running the **** out.

But yeah, I ****ed up the CG and got punished hard, then after that I tried the whole camp thing but it didn't work and he was over me in the damage region.

In the end he actually won via timeout LOL.

Edit: Also KJ, whoever told you such things can go **** themselves, and they aren't really your friend.



Oh and look I just noticed this.

Flashback bro, I never told you that. I told you how I did the KJ TRIBUTE ZOMG Samus dittos and did a bit of lulzledgestalling and mucking around but apart from that, I didn't actually talk about my tournament matches with you.

So next time KJ, you'll want to not make **** up about what I did because I'll bring you down and do it hard.

Seriously man wtf?

lol i KNEW it! i thought you didnt just pick pika up because i could see you knew what you were doing, i remember geting killed by Nair at one point and thought 'woah that was pro'.

NVM guys, i <3 you all

 

[Conviction]

Drama? In Europe?

 

[Teran]

lol i KNEW it! i thought you didnt just pick pika up because i could see you knew what you were doing, i remember geting killed by Nair at one point and thought 'woah that was pro'.

NVM guys, i <3 you all

Lol.

I wasn't going to win with Falco so I took a longshot. Was worth a try but maybe next time.

Also yeah Iblis, UK always be mad.

 

[C.R.Z]

yeah teran it was, to be honest im glad people are starting to do what they can to win. in the end of the day you have to do your best, and if counter picking characters helps then i say go for it. gives me good practise aswell, id rather people play me in a way which makes it hard for me to win

iblis UK brawl commun isnt really mad, its mostly the melee players XD

 

[KillerJawz]

Teran you ain't been Pikachu in tournament before this, nor have you got anyone offline to play Pikachu WITH. I highly doubt you know about Pika's buffered CG, QAC combos, locks, grab setups etc etc. Also the as did Teran bit was supposed to be quoted in a different section, reread that previous post.

Don't be mad cos I be telling the truth. Now drop the matter.

 

[Teran]

Actually I do, I've lurked Pika boards since the beginning and I know the Pikas probably better than you do.

Also I do but he's been out of London since late 09 so our meetings are sporadic.

Sure I haven't been Pikachu in tournament before, that doesn't mean that OH ZOMG I CAN'T USE HIM AT ALL.

So I ****ed up by doingitwrong that match, big deal. You aren't "telling the truth" KJ, since first of all I wasn't fishing for grabs until the last 50 seconds, and I never talked to you about my matches. These are two things you stated which were completely false so no, I will NOT drop the matter until you realise your mistake. As a resigned mod, your staff status means nothing to me, and since I know full well I'm not breaking any rules (considering I spent over a year enforcing them), I'm telling you right here how it is.

Don't test me KJ, I built my entire rep on shutting people down.

 

[KillerJawz]

..What on earth does mod status have to do with anything here?

Also, I used to main Pikachu in 08/09, and did use him in tournament, so I would like to think I know him a great deal further then yourself. You also did lose a 80/20 - 75/25 MU. Furthermore, I'm simply relaying what people have told me in the smashuk chat and offline.

Also I didn't say you talked to me about your matches, I edited that post realising the mistake I had done (seeing the late reply I made afterwards, during of which I had fallen to sleep, obviously not being able to correct it in that time).

Come on Teran hun, that's dance the night away.

 

[Teran]

Alright, but those suckers caught the last few moments evidently, because earlier I was doing nothing but camping until I ****ed up the CG and got smacked hard for it.

TVs there were wack, I vs'd Hoe4u and 2-0'd him, and I'm sure you wouldn't call him a scrub Pika. Yeah I lost the matchup, I did do it wrong, evidently by the fact I ****ing lost, but passing on reports about me fishing for the grab all match is bull****.

Besides if I'd had any sense of playing truly gay, I'd have just settled with the % lead I got and planked. (Which I'll do next time yeeeeah)

Oh and the staff thing was from you saying "drop it" in a commanding tone. I know that very well, and it doesn't work on me.

 

[KillerJawz]

Alright, but those suckers caught the last few moments evidently, because earlier I was doing nothing but camping until I ****ed up the CG and got smacked hard for it.

Then fair enough.

TVs there were wack, I vs'd Hoe4u and 2-0'd him, and I'm sure you wouldn't call him a scrub Pika. Yeah I lost the matchup, I did do it wrong, evidently by the fact I ****ing lost, but passing on reports about me fishing for the grab all match is bull****.

Relaying what I was told. Also Hoe4u can't handle Falcos (that is assuming you went Falco on him), seeing as he fails to beat Keith the very large majority of the time.

Besides if I'd had any sense of playing truly gay, I'd have just settled with the % lead I got and planked. (Which I'll do next time yeeeeah)

You should do it, then wait until Cloud comes down and do this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEx91rtLP60#t=6m08s

Also the drop it thing I did before I was a staff member.

 

[Zhamy]

Why the hell are you two getting your panties in a knot about who's better at Pika?

 

[KillerJawz]

^Oh we're not. This is just all so typical banter, and it's actually promoting some discussion, it's like Teran said, it isn't breaking any rules. We know eachother well enough to know this is all light hearted banter.

 

[Teran]

Then fair enough.



Relaying what I was told. Also Hoe4u can't handle Falcos (that is assuming you went Falco on him), seeing as he fails to beat Keith the very large majority of the time.

Well like I said, what you told was lies and those who told you them are not your friends. Also it seems most people people have trouble with Keith tbh I'm surprised he even beats him at all.

You should do it, then wait until Cloud comes down and do this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEx91rtLP60#t=6m08s

Definitely looks like a good idea.

Also the drop it thing I did before I was a staff member, it just so happens that staff members use it.

I see. Well I guess that's fair nuff, I'm just used to it from arguments in the secret dungeons.

Mishun Cumpleet, I have achieved all I wanted to here, that will be all.

Honestly though with Pikachu's got pathetic grab range, I don't think the matchup is like 9001/-1308135145 in his favour. As a Falco player, my attitude to grabs is to camp and grab only as punishment. I never grab offensively if I'm actually switched on. Cloud's Fox's fluidity, speed, and spacing shows that it's possible to play defensive against Pikachu and make it nigh on impossible to get grabbed, although that does come at the cost of pretty much any approach. It's basically just cat and mouse but it can be done. Also since I do admit I'm not a Pikachu of any real high calibre, I'd not put that as a true barometer, but at the same time I'm very good at actually landing grabs, and from that match I barely even attempted to until extremely late game when I was running out of time.

I'd definitely like to give it another shot though, I think it'd be fun.

EDIT: wtfninja'd

Zhamy obviously dun know about FORUM DUELS

 

[Conviction]

Wait hold on! Play that back!

25/75-20/80 MU? Wtf this?

 

[KillerJawz]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254597

70-30 then, curse Pikachus and their random numbers...

 

[C.R.Z]

yeah teran next time we ll play again, london does need less lag in its tourneys

 

[Teran]

People should get EDTVs and component cables. :3

 

[AvaricePanda]

just saying, if you think Fox vs. Pika is 6-4, then wth is D3 vs. Snake, or MK vs. Marth, or Diddy vs. G&W, or any match-up that's actually 6-4 or worse?

:The match-ups not a free win/not unwinnable" is much, much different than 6-4.

 

[Conviction]

8/2 is considered unwinnable >.>

 

[KillerJawz]

7/3* is considered unwinnable, at least by that chart that Praaxis made a while back.

 

[Conviction]

Opps well I'll go with 65/35. I know this MU is hell but no unwinnable...idk if I have good luck or something but I've only lost to one Pika.

 

[GUARD]

I say this match-up is deffinetly in Pika`s favor......but not 70-30..... I would say more around 60-40 OR 55-45.

- Fox can OUTCAMP Pikachew
- Fox KILLS Pikachew way better
- chaingrab has a limit in percentage.....(unless he chaingrabs you at a rediculously low percent, because his grab gets stale and he may chaingrab you longer)

I just tend to camp pika and somewhat LET HIM hit me with his projectile sometimes (saying that he is far enough to not grab me afterwards) This way the percentage he deals on me wont be a grab.....so if he grabs me, it wont be stale (therefore he should not chaingrab you.)

also...........just sheild at a high percent....when your close to Pika... since Pikachew can't kill us. and we may dash U-smash Pika RIGHT AFTER any of his Smash Attacks. (U-smash, D-smash, and F-smash)

 

[AvaricePanda]

in theory I don't see how Fox outcamps Pikachu but I haven't played a serious match against a Pikachu as Fox in forever and I wasn't that good then. Unless someone provides videos I can only theorycraft, but I can't see how Fox can run away from Pikachu well, prevent him from approaching, or even tack on that much damage with lasers (Pikas crawl goes under them)

fox kills pikachu better yes. Chaingrab percent limit isn't that low though, and Fox doesn't have reliable methods to avoid a grab. Honestly Pikachu could just not use projectiles much at low percents to just get the grab and get a free 90%

If you only shield at high percents it's predictable, but yeah it's more valid then (as compared to getting practically 0-deathed lol). however you shouldn't expect to get a kill from dash shielding something because Pikachu and most characters/players should never do a smash attack as a response to a shield or dash shield.

IMO this match-up is closer to 7-3 than 6-4. 7-3 still means you're winning 3 out of 10 matches against an EVENLY MATCHED PIKACHU (which is honestly a lot, also considering that most of Fox's methods to avoid a grab is outplaying the opponent). If you think it's 55-45 you're saying it's the same match-up ratio as like Falco vs. Diddy, or Diddy vs. Marth, or easier than D3 vs Snake...which is honestly ridiculous.

 

[zyth]

I really think this match up is almost unwinnable for Fox, unless you just have that much more skill than the Pika. here's why:

1. CG(obviously)
2. Pika can duck under lasers.
3. if pika spaces jumping tjolt right even if you reflect he comes down and grabs immediatly, if you get hit by it after it hits the ground stun kicks in and pika still grabs you.
4. QA spam, I don't think it was mentioned before but if Pika hits you onto the ground he can just keeps using QA to keep you on the ground.
5. think your safe at high percents? nope, ugrab into Downb and ur dead anyway
6. the speed is almost even so fox can't run circles around pika with his usual combos

well that's just what I have to say after battling quite a few foxes for a while.

 

[C.R.Z]

I really think this match up is almost unwinnable for Fox, unless you just have that much more skill than the Pika. here's why:

1. CG(obviously)
2. Pika can duck under lasers.
3. if pika spaces jumping tjolt right even if you reflect he comes down and grabs immediatly, if you get hit by it after it hits the ground stun kicks in and pika still grabs you.
4. QA spam, I don't think it was mentioned before but if Pika hits you onto the ground he can just keeps using QA to keep you on the ground.
5. think your safe at high percents? nope, ugrab into Downb and ur dead anyway
6. the speed is almost even so fox can't run circles around pika with his usual combos

well that's just what I have to say after battling quite a few foxes for a while.

1. obviously yeah
2. ducking does not make a significant amount of difference as fox can just threaten an approach to get you to stop ducking, also you cant do what you want when your ducking
3. fox will hardly use shine on pikas project tile unless it will hit you back.fox will most likely power shield those.dont take spacing into consideration like that aswell as both players will be spacing well, what you described does not give you a guaranteed grab, pika doesnt have anything like that.
4.not sure what you mean exactly but i do know that QA enlarges your hurt box, which means it is very easy to hit you.
5.not sure about this either, are you sure your accounting for DI?
6.not exactly true, pika is fast, but fox can still string pika just as easy as other characters.unfortunatly for pika, he does not have enough speed to keep up unless hes using QA from what ive experianced.when using QA he has limited options aswell.

i cant say your 100% wrong on some points but the match up is definatly not unwinnable.

 

[GUARD]

ARGUABLY......some MAY agree that in a 1 vs 1 (Fox vs Pika)..NO CHAINGRAB......it`s even.

obviously we know that Pika will tri to grab us durring the whole duration of the match when Fox is in % grab range.

that being said....Fox has to use extreme caution and NEVER attack the shield or shield in general at a low %. (power shielding projectiles is OK as long as Pika is not too close) Pika`s thundershock projectile is EXTREMELY slow compared to Fox`s lasers. They are soooo easy to dodge, power shield or even shine without Pika grabbing Fox afterwards. (this is why I say Fox outcamps Pikachew) also, the run away reverse SHOL, SHDL or SHTL works EXTREMELY WELL here for Fox.

In general though, this is still one of the hardest match-ups for Fox I find. I will not agree that this match-up in 70-30 however. many may say 60-40.......I say it is more around 60-40 (but just BARELY allmost 55-45)

Whether we like it or not.....grab is a great counter for Fox (if used well)........so this match-up is still very hard and anoying.


ps: Fox should STRIKE all stages with little or no platforms. `with the new ruleset`: I would strike FD and SV for sure and personally, I would also stike Castle Siege and PS1. I`m ready to bring Pika to Lylat, Yoshi`s Island (brawl), BF or Delfino for neutrals. (I`m not a fan of Yoshi`s Island though.) I would DEFINETLY ban FD for counterpicks. not sure where to bring Pika though.....is Brinstar good??? (saying that Pika doesn`t swith characters that is.lol)

 

[AvaricePanda]

i can't believe one of Fox's hardest match-ups is easier for him than the Snake vs. D3 or Falco vs. MK match-ups.

also define camp. Fox can get damage by running away but there's few characters he can camp 100% effectively because he doesn't have much to threaten people from coming in to approach him. Yes Pikachu's projectiles are easier to avoid or dodge, but as Fox approaching Pikachu is very dangerous, and the projectiles limit your options further.

 

[C.R.Z]

i can't believe one of Fox's hardest match-ups is easier for him than the Snake vs. D3 or Falco vs. MK match-ups.

also define camp. Fox can get damage by running away but there's few characters he can camp 100% effectively because he doesn't have much to threaten people from coming in to approach him. Yes Pikachu's projectiles are easier to avoid or dodge, but as Fox approaching Pikachu is very dangerous, and the projectiles limit your options further.

thats not true, fox is the best camper in the game.the reason being he cannot be out camped by anyone. i think of camping as pressuring your opponent to approach. You dont need to have a projectile to camp. your goal is not to prevent an approach, its the complete opposite.what makes A. character better camper than B. is when they are compared in a match up. who ever has to approach is the one who was out camped. yes it is dangerous for fox to approach but he never has to commit to one because hes good at camping, he also has a few moves which can avoid getting grabbed altogether.

btw dont strike SV, its prob our best stage to avoid getting grabbed/ chain grabbed