Master Hands legitimacy in melee's tournament arena.

[Dragoon Fighter]

Link to original post: [drupal=3516]Master Hands legitimacy in melee's tournament arena.[/drupal]



Here is the link to INSANE CRAZY GUY's original thread

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280516

It was locked do to the fact the conversation was not going anywhere according to the MOD. who locked which that is ok I guess I can kind of understand that, I mean the melee discussion is no blog which does not need to be productive and it is not the debate hall were the it would be ok for a conversation dragged out do to intelligent discussion. So I moved his thread Idea to the blog (credit to him) arena but I do not mind if we just talk general master hand stuff as well.

 

[Teran]

I honestly think Master Hand would be low tier, his moves are so telegraphed it's painful.

Plus I'm assuming he'll have HP instead of percent.

 

[GwJ]

Well let's see, as far as I know in a stock match the Master Hand is invincible. Don't take my word for it, but I THINK he can only be destroyed in stamina matches.

 

[REL38]

The game glitches when you knock him down to 0%

Sooooo

 

[X1-12]

so what happens when both players want to play MH?


oh wait you can't do that.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

This is a Master Hand FAQ written by GrimTusday it should help clear things up http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278836

@Julio Terán Escobar and GwJumpman He can be beaten under current tournement rules if he has more damage and it goes to sudden death the player who is not master hand wins.

@ everyone Please read the original thread first.

 

[UberMario]

He'd most likely be low-to-bottom tier, his attacks are too predictable even with a person controlling them and Master Hand is pretty much screwed if the opponent has a decent projectile.

 

[-_skinny_-]

He'd most likely be low-to-bottom tier, his attacks are too predictable even with a person controlling them and Master Hand is pretty much screwed if the opponent has a decent projectile.

or gannon
10char

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

He'd most likely be low-to-bottom tier, his attacks are too predictable even with a person controlling them and Master Hand is pretty much screwed if the opponent has a decent projectile.

You are right about him being bottem tier as a matter of fact I would bet money that he would be some where adjacent to ether Kirby or pichu tier list wise.

 

[t3h Icy]

The serious usage of Master Hand:

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Actually there could be a potential use for him on the competitive level, INSANE CRAZY GUY believes him to be a jiggly puff counter so he may have a future yet.

 

[GwJ]

Why would he could jiggs?

 

[Teran]

Yeah but Dragoon Fighter, ICG is called that for a reason.

He's completely insane.

 

[REL38]

@Dragoon

I read a more in-depth discussion pertaining to Master Hand in the Melee Tier List thread a good while back

Needless to say, no point in arguing his usage when

a) he sucks

b) Melee ruleset won't/isn't endorsing it

c) no one would use him

d) next to no one cares


This entire idea is lol

 

[X1-12]

He's completely insane.

and carzy!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Surely he'd be the worst character in the game?

Even people who are scrubs at competitive Melee can beat the Master Hand. His attacks are horribly telegraphed and aren't too difficult to avoid. He's a massive target, doesn't move very well and has a rubbish projectile

There's also the issue that he can't lose stocks like ordinary fighters. How would the Master Hand 'lose'?

I can't see a problem of using him competitivly because he certainly doesn't ruin competitive play. Not sure why anyone would want to use him though lol. You'd probably lose super easy

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Yeah but Dragoon Fighter, ICG is called that for a reason.

He's completely insane.

He does have a logical argument you can ask him yourself, besides he named himself ICG there for he is not completely insane. Also Insanity does not mean a person is not intelligent you can be very smart and still be crazy. Anyway you should not jump to conclusions that are founded upon inconclusive evidence.

@Dragoon

I read a more in-depth discussion pertaining to Master Hand in the Melee Tier List thread a good while back

Needless to say, no point in arguing his usage when

a) he sucks

So far and most likely true but as of now scene no one has played him competitively he Could have a meta-game unknown at this time. You are most likely right but he should be around let us say you ban him just because he is bad then we should ban pichu and Kirby under that same premise which of course would be unfair. Same thing here with banning master hand.

b) Melee ruleset won't/isn't endorsing it

He can be beaten by letting the timer run out and him and having less damage and that is with the current rules so there for there would be no need to adjust the rule set.

c) no one would use him

A friend of mine is actually going to take his master hand to a tournament.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Ya, there would be no reason to use him.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Ya, there would be no reason to use him.

maybe, maybe not time will tell.

Also a just formed group The A.M.H.D. Link is http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2291 even if you think he is useless (That can only benefit you if you fight a master hand in a tournament right?) join if you wish to see him in tournaments, he is not officially banned and the goal of this group is to keep it that way.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

puff would be master hand's best match-up by far.

things to throw out there.

1. master hand has some of the most damageing attacks sheild wise iin the game easily if you took like 2 in a row your sheild would be gone depending on move and junk.

2. puff takes 4 jumps to get over his walking fingers attack, and many other attacks would take 2-3 jumps and puff couldn't keep up as funny as it sounds.

3. when puff trys to air attack her spacing counts for nothing if she when in the air and he attacked his move will auto beat hers so puff would have to get much closer than normal to attack safely and we can both see the problem with that.

4 lack or projectile or beefy damaging move no counter,, 20% dmagae air attacks or anything. that damaging.

5. puff is uber light and helps MH worlds and her slow recovery may let himedge gaurd her decently.

puff vs MH YS would suck for her.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Wow. I thought the idea was stupid, until mr defense attourney here ^ made me change my mind.

I guess MH would be decent in tourney play, at least, vs puff.

 

[REL38]

So far and most likely true but as of now scene no one has played him competitively he Could have a meta-game unknown at this time. You are most likely right but he should be around let us say you ban him just because he is bad then we should ban pichu and Kirby under that same premise which of course would be unfair. Same thing here with banning master hand.

When any character can defeat Master Hand with no damage due to easily avoidable moves, stuck on one side of the field, presents a huge target . . . . I doubt his "metagame" will be anything impressive

He can be beaten by letting the timer run out and him and having less damage and that is with the current rules so there for there would be no need to adjust the rule set.

The fact he can only be beaten in this fashion tells you something when the rest of cast is forced to cater to timing him out

Not to mention Master Hand is forced into going off percent and may as well have one stock since the other three are worthless

A friend of mine is actually going to take his master hand to a tournament.

Again, no one uses him

There may be a small influx of people maining Master Hand (as in, 10 people), but altogether his usage will be pathetically low and he'll NEVER place in a real tourney

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

people simply come in hating before thinking that's why my ideas never get any love. MH would be decent vs puff.

@ hater

1st off we haven't fully expoled MH also just become you aren't hitting them means it's a bad thing, you could get them into a connrer like marth fair spacing and them trying to back up to avoid it and to projectile.

people want to mess with rules for MH ban corn for him and make it so you have to do 800% that would make things muuch more fun and have more options.



IF NO ONE USES HIM WHY BAN HIM???????????????? your logic is so flawed. we should ban him cause _______ banning should be the LAST option like with metagay they got rid of planking to even things up. they want to farther ban him because people still think he is broken without planking. this is someone without anything you want to ban and the 800% rule would make things much more bare a bull.

banning is the last option when nothing esle works and it's game breaking. it isn't the 800% rule would ALSO shorten matches a s*** lot.

also if you want bring out the lack of skill for MH then look at the lack of skill needed to fight him, spacing, mindgames, and tech skill is nearly totally usnless and unneeded.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Hey, INSANE CARZY GUY, Jiggs wouldn't need to space, as master hand has poor options.
It'd be like DAIRDAIRDAIR.
thoughts?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

walking hand that s*** dair is lagy, keep in mind attack buffering speeds up MH a fair amount.

dair doesn't do an insane amount of damage.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Melee...?
Buffer...?

Multi-hit moves destroy master hand, including Jiggs Dair.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

@Man of Popsicle
Buffer is where you use one of MH's moves and in mid move use one of his other moves so at the end of move one he goes right into move two.

also Multi-hits really do not do that much under current tournament rules.

 

[REL38]

people simply come in hating before thinking that's why my ideas never get any love. MH would be decent vs puff.

@ hater

1st off we haven't fully expoled MH also just become you aren't hitting them means it's a bad thing, you could get them into a connrer like marth fair spacing and them trying to back up to avoid it and to projectile.

people want to mess with rules for MH ban corn for him and make it so you have to do 800% that would make things muuch more fun and have more options.



IF NO ONE USES HIM WHY BAN HIM???????????????? your logic is so flawed. we should ban him cause _______ banning should be the LAST option like with metagay they got rid of planking to even things up. they want to farther ban him because people still think he is broken without planking. this is someone without anything you want to ban and the 800% rule would make things much more bare a bull.

banning is the last option when nothing esle works and it's game breaking. it isn't the 800% rule would ALSO shorten matches a s*** lot.

also if you want bring out the lack of skill for MH then look at the lack of skill needed to fight him, spacing, mindgames, and tech skill is nearly totally usnless and unneeded.

I lol at how you're assuming things I never said

Like banning him and theorycrafting Jiggs MU against him


Anyways, Master Hand still has little going for him

Aside from lowly expected representation, easily predictable attacks, inability for dittos and being a glitch; his percent-stock delima is the largest problem I see


He can only have one stock that's of use rendering the other 3 pointless
Due to this, if the opponent is somehow down a stock, they have absolutely no method of defeating Master Hand

Cuz his percent will peak reach 999% because you can't knock off a stock

So this practically forces a match between Master Hand into a 1 stock, 7 minute fight
Completely voiding the 4 stocks ruling

A result found only with Master Hand and no one else

He doesn't die in a conventional method and forces everyone else to time him out to win


So when people try to rationalize a character that can only lose via time out (voiding stocks for himself) and essentially forces the opponent into a 1 stock vs 1 stock match, I just can't help but lol at the entire idea

also Multi-hits really do not do that much under current tournament rules.

What in the world is this supposed to mean?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

stop at 800% solves your problems sorry but what's wrong with you? yes running down the clock is a bad idea but I didn't say that's what we should do. really dumb just hit him up to 800% what's wrong with that?

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I'd plank his ***.

 

[REL38]

stop at 800% solves your problems sorry but what's wrong with you? yes running down the clock is a bad idea but I didn't say that's what we should do. really dumb just hit him up to 800% what's wrong with that?

The fact that he's the only character in the entire cast that needs this to be forcefully done to for both percent and time outs

I'm wondering as to why 800%
The way I see it, this suggests a typical character will tank up to 200% for each stock which I don't find to be the case unless an average was estimated

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ever seen roy matches? I swear I saw him kill at like 180% every time before and still somehow win.

also 800% is fair seeing how MH shouldn't ever hit you so stop B****ing this idea is better than running down the clock.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I lol at how you're assuming things I never said

Like banning him and theorycrafting Jiggs MU against him


Anyways, Master Hand still has little going for him

Aside from lowly expected representation, easily predictable attacks, inability for dittos and being a glitch; his percent-stock delima is the largest problem I see


He can only have one stock that's of use rendering the other 3 pointless
Due to this, if the opponent is somehow down a stock, they have absolutely no method of defeating Master Hand

So that means if Master Hand tags you the match will not last for eight minutes, and yes that means he only needs to take out one stock but considering that it takes a LONG time to do just that (presuming you succeed in taking out a stock as Master Hand the most readable character in the game) it really does even out. Also if you are ranting on about why this is a bad idea then you imply you wish him banned because it is on a thread discussion about his legitimacy If you do not wish him banned then enplane how you can be against him and not wish him banned.

Cuz his percent will peak reach 999% because you can't knock off a stock

So this practically forces a match between Master Hand into a 1 stock, 7 minute fight
Completely voiding the 4 stocks ruling

A result found only with Master Hand and no one else

The four stock ruling is that characters will have four stocks for tournament matches which he still comes with four stocks he just does not need three of them, and about the result that can only be found with master hand there are plenty of characters with unique traits that creates results exclusive to them Like fortress hog is a result only found with browser, Shiek's needle cancel is shiek only, Pichu damage's himself. All of these things are exclusive and unique to the listed character only. Should we ban them too?

He doesn't die in a conventional method and forces everyone else to time him out to win

No, he does not die in the conventional method but he is weak as you yourself pointed out and for certain characters timing him out is honestly not a problem.

What in the world is this supposed to mean?

Read it in the context of Master Hand.

 

[REL38]

So that means if Master Hand tags you the match will not last for eight minutes, and yes that means he only needs to take out one stock but considering that it takes a LONG time to do just that (presuming you succeed in taking out a stock as Master Hand the most readable character in the game) it really does even out. Also if you are ranting on about why this is a bad idea then you imply you wish him banned because it is on a thread discussion about his legitimacy If you do not wish him banned then enplane how you can be against him and not wish him banned.

It's called not caring about the particular subject at hand, but still having a formulated opinion on the matter

In this case, I find the enitre subject of using Master Hand in game as lolworthy


To answer your point, it isn't a matter of "making it even"
If that were the case, then why not give Mewtwo an extra stock to even out him being horrible?

The fact is that if you somehow lose a stock against Master Hand, it completely renders the rest of your 3 stocks utterly useless as he can't lose a stock himself

Unless, of course, a percentage rule is made which is flawed to begin with

The four stock ruling is that characters will have four stocks for tournament matches which he still comes with four stocks he just does not need three of them, and about the result that can only be found with master hand there are plenty of characters with unique traits that creates results exclusive to them Like fortress hog is a result only found with browser, Shiek's needle cancel is shiek only, Pichu damage's himself. All of these things are exclusive and unique to the listed character only. Should we ban them too?

It isn't that he "doesn't need them"
It's that he doesn't use them

Master Hand can only be dealt damage to and cannot possibly lose a single stock making him virtually unbeatalbe by not being able to lose any stocks

It is, by no means, a "unique trait" like Pichu's self-damaging electricity
It's a gameplay element that prevent Master Hand from losing any stocks

Because he wasn't designed to be KO'd like everyone else which is why he doesn't even have a respawn location like the rest of the cast

No, he does not die in the conventional method but he is weak as you yourself pointed out and for certain characters timing him out is honestly not a problem.

Except being forced to time out a character shouldn't be the case
Because choosing to time out your opponent is completely different than being forced to time out your opponent

Read it in the context of Master Hand.

You specifically mentioned the Melee Ruleset

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257229

I see nothing in the Melee Ruleset that's relevent to Jiggs dair

ever seen roy matches? I swear I saw him kill at like 180% every time before and still somehow win.

also 800% is fair seeing how MH shouldn't ever hit you so stop B****ing this idea is better than running down the clock.

I was simply wondering for the basis behind 800% instead of, say, 600%
I'd say legitimate testing to establish the cut-off percent is better than a randomly generated number
Similar to how a LGL cut-off was established via testing instead of some randomly generated number such as 70


Honestly, difficulty shouldn't be a basis or reason for fairness
Just because Master Hand would prove to be bad doesn't necessarily mean the cut-off percent should be higher just for the sake of it
A valid reason should be given as to what the cut-off percent should be although I am aware the number you presented was probably for sake of an example

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

It's called not caring about the particular subject at hand, but still having a formulated opinion on the matter

In this case, I find the enitre subject of using Master Hand in game as lolworthy


To answer your point, it isn't a matter of "making it even"
If that were the case, then why not give Mewtwo an extra stock to even out him being horrible?

The fact is that if you somehow lose a stock against Master Hand, it completely renders the rest of your 3 stocks utterly useless as he can't lose a stock himself

Unless, of course, a percentage rule is made which is flawed to begin with

I am not pro the 800% rule set that is INSANE CRAZY GUY that is probably one of the few area's me and him disagree on when it comes to Master Hand.
Also mewtwo is not a horrible character he has many appealing qualities that make him attractive yet hard to handle, but a debate over mewtwo is not for this blog.

It isn't that he "doesn't need them"
It's that he doesn't use them

Master Hand can only be dealt damage to and cannot possibly lose a single stock making him virtually unbeatalbe by not being able to lose any stocks

It is, by no means, a "unique trait" like Pichu's self-damaging electricity
It's a gameplay element that prevent Master Hand from losing any stocks

Because he wasn't designed to be KO'd like everyone else which is why he doesn't even have a respawn location like the rest of the cast

I dislike the fact you keep tossing out the word "virtually unbeatable" because he really is not my brother was able to beat my master hand with his shiek and yet he can't beat my Kirby, KIRBY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, so no he really is not "virtually unbeatable".

Also how is it not a unique trait? please explain, and all the things I listed are also "gameplay elements".

Except being forced to time out a character shouldn't be the case
Because choosing to time out your opponent is completely different than being forced to time out your opponent

See previous argument.

You specifically mentioned the Melee Ruleset

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257229

I see nothing in the Melee Ruleset that's relevent to Jiggs dair

There is not a rule towards jiggs dair in the melee's rule set you are right I was just answering the guy's statement In terms of gameplay not rule set. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[REL38]

I am not pro the 800% rule set that is INSANE CRAZY GUY that is probably one of the few area's me and him disagree on when it comes to Master Hand.
Also mewtwo is not a horrible character he has many appealing qualities that make him attractive yet hard to handle, but a debate over mewtwo is not for this blog.

Brawl Ganon has some redeeming qualities such as having various killing moves, heavy weight and having a monster dair
This doesn't take away from the fact that Ganon is lolterrible
Just like Mewtwo

I dislike the fact you keep tossing out the word "virtually unbeatable" because he really is not my brother was able to beat my master hand with his shiek and yet he can't beat my Kirby, KIRBY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, so no he really is not "virtually unbeatable".

Also how is it not a unique trait? please explain, and all the things I listed are also "gameplay elements".

I've only used that term once, actually

Anyways, matches amongst you and your brother aren't credible examples
Tourney results and high level player matches are more credible

Not to mention Kirby is far better against Master Hand due to multi-hit attacks
Spam dair and fair


To continue with your next point, Pichu's self-damaging electricity doesn't hinder the entire point of Smash
Knocking your opponent off the stage to clear off all their stocks

Master Hand cannot be KO'd becaue he cannot be knocked off the stage thusly rendering his stocks infinitely safe

Master Hand can tank 999% and not lose a stock making him "virtually unbeatable" because he cannot lose any stocks
Voiding the entire point behind Smash

Pushing for a percent cut-off is making Smash into a traditional fighter in the sense that it is not about knocking your oppoent off the stage to clear off stocks, but rather attack your opponent to clear off their health bar (aka percent)

It's a matter of principle, really
Smash is about knocking opponents off the stage, not knocking off a percent total

See previous argument.

It still stands that if you go by timing out Master Hand, it ends up being the only strategy to defeat him
As in, you're forced to do it

Kinda sounds like stalling, actually

There is not a rule towards jiggs dair in the melee's rule set you are right I was just answering the guy's statement In terms of gameplay not rule set. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Just checking

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Brawl Ganon has some redeeming qualities such as having various killing moves, heavy weight and having a monster dair
This doesn't take away from the fact that Ganon is lolterrible
Just like Mewtwo

One of the beautiful things about melee is almost all the characters are incredible dangerous if used by a professional level tiers still exist but with enough skill it starts to really not hold any power over that player.

I've only used that term once, actually

Anyways, matches amongst you and your brother aren't credible examples
Tourney results and high level player matches are more credible

Not to mention Kirby is far better against Master Hand due to multi-hit attacks
Spam dair and fair

Yes how ever we can't fully have a truly informed and complete debate until master hand is USED IN THE TOURNAMENT until then home matches are the best data we have, and yes Kirby for god tier (I have bias for Kirby I know full well that is not what you meant).

To continue with your next point, Pichu's self-damaging electricity doesn't hinder the entire point of Smash
Knocking your opponent off the stage to clear off all their stocks

Master Hand cannot be KO'd becaue he cannot be knocked off the stage thusly rendering his stocks infinitely safe

Master Hand can tank 999% and not lose a stock making him "virtually unbeatable" because he cannot lose any stocks
Voiding the entire point behind Smash

Pichu was not the only character listed in my argument and causing him to lose stocks is not how to beat him and I could see your point if we are talking about team battles but we are just talking 1v1. (for now I actually was thinking of debating that latter.)

Pushing for a percent cut-off is making Smash into a traditional fighter in the sense that it is not about knocking your oppoent off the stage to clear off stocks, but rather attack your opponent to clear off their health bar (aka percent)

It's a matter of principle, really
Smash is about knocking opponents off the stage, not knocking off a percent total

I actually agree that a percent is a little unnecessary, If it is not broken do not fix it.

It still stands that if you go by timing out Master Hand, it ends up being the only strategy to defeat him
As in, you're forced to do it

Kinda sounds like stalling, actually

It will not take that long if master hand wins because he only needs to take one stock once again that makes him very unique but not unbeatable. Also as I am sure you already know there are more than just one way to do one goal so the counter strategy could be more varied than JUST camping (Fox and falco's lazer camp would be murder against master hand same with just about anyone with a good projectile.)

 

[Zook]

Wouldn't Master Hand not function properly on a lot of stages? He's built to fight on a level stage, I wouldn't expect him to be best friends with like Corneria and whatnot.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

@Zook you are correct and if you wind up playing on corneria and peaches castle you (as master hand) lose automatically because the other player can not reach you (Master hand spawns below the great fox and inside peach's castle) making corneria the ultimate counter pick against master hand (as peachs casstle is banned if I remember correctly.) While other stages like pokemon stadium and poke floats for an he has a fixed area of attack for some of his moves thus limiting is options. How ever there are other battle fields other than final destination that work just fine.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

masterhand shouldnt be allowed in tournaments because nobody should have to sit through the boring *** DAIR DAIR LOL AIRDODGE matches. and also glitch johns.