Masquerade Mafia / Mafia Wins!

[Twitchybanana]

Wow a lot happened over night. I'll address everything on this page, then continue my reread.

 

[Twitchybanana]

That's all it took? Also, I'm not sure what detail would show your change, since that happened after the day started. You had a town read on him from the beginning of the day, which doesn't make sense without some *spark*. Have you ever given a read or mentioned Morosemist yesterday at all?

I was tunneling Polish hard yesterday, leading me to ignore mist's scumminess. I thought about it, realized I was incorrect, and changed my read. That should be commonplace in mafia. It just sort of... came to me.

Here he states that Morose is missing Twitch's point, which should show that he wants people to be convinced of his 'case' on Polish. Yet that's the last you hear of him talking to others about it. This feels more like a feint, to seem like he is irritated and urging others to follow through, but never does.

...
I pushed Polish's lynch hard the entire day. What are you talking about?

He is keeping his options open by saying that Ran made it easier for him to swallow a policy lynch of him. Yet still arguing against it. Not keeping a hard stance.

I'm not going to speak in absolutes when not appropriate. Ran's vote on Polish was a bad vote in a worse post, considering the circumstances. The formally null player doing something a tad scummy makes me more ok with lynching him. Perfectly reasonable, wouldn't you say?

This comes out of left field. Never did he have an interaction that may make him change his mind, and never did he say anything to that liking. This is the most damning piece of evidence against him. This is the epitome of faking.

...

Likely-Ish? 60-80%? If you flip scum I'll gloat a bit, before re-reading and analyzing your interactions. If you flip town I'll be salty for a bit, before re-reading and analyzing your interactions and defending myself against the inevitable sea of votes aimed at me.

(This discussion is helping your rep in my book, for the record.)

The deadline is fast approaching and I don't want a mislynch. If anyone thinks I'm wrong and can prove it, please speak now. There are 4 people viewing the thread. If any of those wonderful individuals can show me a fallacy I've made, I will change my vote accordingly. I'm admittedly tunneling a bit, and I don't want the confirmation bias that comes with it to cloud my vision.

Here, he states he strongly dislikes my conclusions, without having no strong conclusions himself. This is really an odd thing to say, unless you already have a differing opinion. He never intended to genuinely push Polish.

Except I have stated I have hard reads. Furthermore, even if I didn't, it wouldn't be a real point against me. I'm not going to go around saying [player] is mod confirmed obviscum, unless my read is really that hard. I'm showing my thought process, instead of dealing in absolutes. Only the Sith do that.

Secondly, he states I am Null town, or may be clever scum. I feel this is scum who is threatened by my presence, and has to add that to seed doubt on my slot.

lel

He says this because he simply disagrees with me. He states that as if he is the one who has good reads above all...

It's almost as if I only completely trust myself and my own reads in a mafia game! How unheard of!

#214

Stalling, promises a re-read.

#217

Stalling for his re-read.

#231

Stalling, and apology for not fulfilling his promise.

I'd rather go places in life than be prompt in a mafia game. Besides, I delivered the reread.

Here, Polish makes his move, on Morosemist. He also gives a reads list above, and changes his read on me from nulltown to town, without any note in between. Odd to make that jump so suddenly, as if to appease me.

#239

Twitch finally comes back, and follows through. It reeks of waiting for Polish to make a move so he can 1+ him. Never did he build up to this, and never did he even try to read or interact with Morosemist.

You're suffering from confirmation bias, friend. For this to be a valid argument, we must work from the assumption that myself and Polish are the scum team.

This is all it took to convince him to do a 180 on Polish. There was no interaction, and no show of him changing his mind in thread. As you can see in his argument against him, he does not talk about that again. What makes his original argument invalid, now that he sees him as town? Well, you can be sure he did not think of that, since he isn't thinking about it. He dropped it and gave Polish his full support for no rational reason.

...

Likely-Ish? 60-80%? If you flip scum I'll gloat a bit, before re-reading and analyzing your interactions. If you flip town I'll be salty for a bit, before re-reading and analyzing your interactions and defending myself against the inevitable sea of votes aimed at me.

(This discussion is helping your rep in my book, for the record.)

The deadline is fast approaching and I don't want a mislynch. If anyone thinks I'm wrong and can prove it, please speak now. There are 4 people viewing the thread. If any of those wonderful individuals can show me a fallacy I've made, I will change my vote accordingly. I'm admittedly tunneling a bit, and I don't want the confirmation bias that comes with it to cloud my vision.

Corps, this is a really bad post/push. I'm going to continue reading, but that was scummy as all hell.

We have already explained that stating mafia could not determine whether or not he was VT is not providing reasonable doubt for his claim. You chose to ignore it. Likewise, I am confused why you intended to dissect the claim. It is a Vanilla Town claim, the most basic role in existence. There is no specific deciphering of this role, merely whether or not you believe the player making the claim is town. It is the role equivalent of saying, "I am town, don't lynch me." Your intention to decipher it makes you seem far more focused on roles and less on the alignment of the players behind it. As a result, I would like to see more about the intentions behind the action. I will not accept any defaulting to "this is scummy because I say so." You have failed in explaining why.

No. He has explained why he sees it as scummy. His reasoning, while flawed, has been sufficiently communicated.

Here, we have a similar read change that had no impetus to cause him to change. (None that I remember seeing)

I explained this in my big post. Please, read the thread.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. It just is a little much, and selectively so.

The underlined here are exact opposites of the opinions Twitchy claimed to have at the time of the events in each case just a few pages ago in D1, and arguably each is an outright defense of the slot. Enough of an extreme switch that I'd actually consider maybe something happened in the night if it weren't for the existence of this quote:

making that seem less plausible.

Either way, something here is wrong and needs to be addressed either in Twitchy's own play or those around him, so I'll help you try and solve it.

Vote: TwitchyBanana

Yes, my opinions changed upon reread/reconsideration.

Do you still stand by this theory, or do you no longer think it is likely?

No, I don't think it's likely.

OrangeXhtml Could you clarify formatting on your most recent post?

I'm going to continue my reread now, but Cops' push on me is really, really bad. It feels like the kind of push scum makes, honestly, but we'll see.

 

[OrangeXhtml]

Sorry, that was messy formatting. I'm referring to this post and the part that mattered out of the messed up quotes was:

1. Ran's inactivity felt really scummy to me based on:

Ran did a random vote post-RVS to prevent himself from being modkilled or replaced, left for another couple days, seemed miffed that nobody was defending his slot when he got back, kneejerked Polish for a completely garbage reason, implied a scumteam between Polish and Aquarious (without giving a reason), said Pro and BarMaven were fine (without giving a reason), and ignored my questioning of his post afterwards. I think he's the scummiest at this point. Who do you think we should lynch, Twitchy?

Considering he failed to visit the thread at all after this, what part of his content seemed null?

2. a. If he flipped scum, we would have likely had only one Mafia and possibly one Indie left to deal with (I think 6v2v1 is decent balance (3 mafia would make a winning situation after a possible alpha strike D2, and I haven't played a game without an indie faction (other than Kingmaker)), so that's what I'm going with right now).
2. b. He's at fault for not posting, and we prevented the lynch of an active slot that could have prevented conversation. I thought he was scummy based on his content, so a combination of getting rid of a scum read and getting rid of dead weight seemed like a good idea at the time.
2. c. Thus, lynching Raniverous seemed like the logical decision.

3. a. The problem with this is we were already looking for a replacement. Assuming that we got two replacements (which would have been unlikely anyways), the chance of an inactive this game is ~22.22% (2/9 slots inactive, assuming we ignore the fact that Pro was gone for a few days, Aquarius has been in and out, and Moro seemed to have short bursts of high activity and then slightly longer periods of low activity). If I test the probability of getting at least one inactive out of the replacements, it would be 1-binompdf(2,.2222,0) which is equal to 39.5%. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't count on a 60% chance of getting an active replacement. It's likely, but not by much. Also, who would we lynch after this? You suggested Polish at the time, but how would you justify that when considering Barman's post on the policy lynch?
3. b. Are you really willing to say that someone might become active after posting 2 times in a 7 day phase, neither post proving that he had read the thread?
3. c. So you were willing to give him a normal phase and a half to be active, while he's not even trying to replace out?

4. You have failed to prove that the risk/reward leans heavily towards letting him live, and your reasoning is flawed.

Have to go march a couple parades, will be back Sunday.

 

[Corps phoenix]

I was tunneling Polish hard yesterday, leading me to ignore mist's scumminess. I thought about it, realized I was incorrect, and changed my read. That should be commonplace in mafia. It just sort of... came to me.

I do not believe the underlined. It would be more believable if you gave a read on Morosemist, which you never cared to do.

I pushed Polish's lynch hard the entire day. What are you talking about?

You never followed up with Morosemist about him commenting on your case. If you really cared you'd ask him to do so the next time.

I'm not going to speak in absolutes when not appropriate. Ran's vote on Polish was a bad vote in a worse post, considering the circumstances. The formally null player doing something a tad scummy makes me more ok with lynching him. Perfectly reasonable, wouldn't you say?

The fact remains that you were keeping your options open.

Except I have stated I have hard reads.

If you had hard reads you would have pushed Morosemist from the start, yet you had to re-read to be able to do it. I asked you who you'd want to push and you didn't have an answer until re-reading. Not even a gut read.

It's almost as if I only completely trust myself and my own reads in a mafia game! How unheard of!

This would make sense if you had reads in the beginning to show, which you didn't have. You had to re-read to get your scumread on Morose, you didn't have it before that point, which still makes your strong disagreement with me odd.

I'd rather go places in life than be prompt in a mafia game. Besides, I delivered the reread.

I go places too. It doesn't invalidate that you had been stalling to delay content.

You're suffering from confirmation bias, friend. For this to be a valid argument, we must work from the assumption that myself and Polish are the scum team.

1. You stalled.
2. You never interacted with Morosemist or tried to develop a read on him before.
3. You vote him, a post after Polish. (Which can be shown to be sheeping)
4. You change your read on me from nulltown to town without a reason to note that change.

I'd already have voted Mist if this post didn't make it frighteningly possible he's just a misguided townie. This seems genuine, but it's also almost completely falsified.

This post shows you were feeling Morosemist was genuine yet you still vote him.
This is also wishy washy.

I explained this in my big post. Please, read the thread.

Yet you don't explain why you liked him better D1. The posts you said were townie of Orange started on page 3, before you posted the vote on Polish. Doesn't make sense for you to not comment on it and then only state it's townie in a second glance on Day 2.

No, I don't think it's likely.

Elaborate.

 

[Corps phoenix]

T Twitchybanana

1. You were still at most 80% sure Polish would flip mafia.
2. You never unvoted Polish.
3. His push on Ran came to a mislynch, which is what you were arguing he was doing. It happened, but you don't seem to remember that Ran flipped town.
4. You never explain why your original push is not likely anymore.

You ask for people to prove you wrong, but that is still you pushing while asking for comments. Yet, that post sounds like scum trying to sound townie, when it is much harder to get rid of confirmation bias. No townie would say that.

You never changed your direction day 1. Even if you had lowered the percentage a little lower to 60%, you would still have a scumread on Polish, but you threw it away completely. Your response would make sense if you said he wasn't likely to flip scum anymore, but you did not say that.

 

[Corps phoenix]

OrangeXhtml : I would very much like your input on Twitchy and my case against him.
@Polishnapkin: Since it's taking Barman forever, I am willing to see you comment after Orange, since we only have 2 days left until deadline. I also want your answers to my questions.

@MOD request prod on @BarmanUK/ Maven89 .

 

[Twitchybanana]

You never followed up with Morosemist about him commenting on your case. If you really cared you'd ask him to do so the next time.

I was addressing Aquariusboy, not you, with respect to Polishnapkin.

I will address your argument though. I have to look it over, but my initial impression was not to think it was scum team play setting up for thread control. I don't think it's impossible though, but it's very risky considering there is probably only 2 scum in a 9 man game. I don't really see it happening no matter how confident they might think they are in their own play. I am confused as to why you think they are paired at the moment. Also, the Orange half seemed a bit more invested in trying to figure out who Polishnapkin is and it seemed all wrong if it was meant to be a power play

You mean this? I didn't directly apply to it because this sentiment was covered in later posts.

I do not believe the underlined. It would be more believable if you gave a read on Morosemist, which you never cared to do.

Believe what you want.

The fact remains that you were keeping your options open.

...Sure, because I wasn't entirely sure of myself.

you had hard reads you would have pushed Morosemist from the start, yet you had to re-read to be able to do it. I asked you who you'd want to push and you didn't have an answer until re-reading. Not even a gut read.

Right. Because unlike some people, I make my pushes based off of information and analysis I attain through reading.

This would make sense if you had reads in the beginning to show, which you didn't have. You had to re-read to get your scumread on Morose, you didn't have it before that point, which still makes your strong disagreement with me odd.

The strong disagreement I was referring to was with aqua and polish.

I go places too. It doesn't invalidate that you had been stalling to delay content.

You assume mal-intent to prove mal-intent.

1. You stalled.
2. You never interacted with Morosemist or tried to develop a read on him before.
3. You vote him, a post after Polish. (Which can be shown to be sheeping)
4. You change your read on me from nulltown to town without a reason to note that change.

1. "Stalling" assumes mal-intent.
2. Because I was tunneling. Would you rather I keep tunneling?
3. Polish made a good argument. That's the point of posts like these: to convince others. He was successful.
4. Where, specifically?

This post shows you were feeling Morosemist was genuine yet you still vote him.
This is also wishy washy.

I voted him because the rather objective scumminess outweighs my paranoia.

Yet you don't explain why you liked him better D1. The posts you said were townie of Orange started on page 3, before you posted the vote on Polish. Doesn't make sense for you to not comment on it and then only state it's townie in a second glance on Day 2.

Again, my reads changed upon reread. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, Phoenix.

Elaborate.

The arguments have already been hashed out. I'm not going to spend 30 minutes writing a wall that wouldn't contain anything new. The information is there for you, in the thread.

Now, Corps, I want a yes or no answer asap -- this is time sensitive. Are you satisfied?

 

[Corps phoenix]

The arguments have already been hashed out. I'm not going to spend 30 minutes writing a wall that wouldn't contain anything new. The information is there for you, in the thread.

You don't need to. You can just summarize it into 1-2 sentences. If you can't it shows you are faking it. Explain it now.

 

[Twitchybanana]

You don't need to. You can just summarize it into 1-2 sentences. If you can't it shows you are faking it. Explain it now.

I still think policy lynches are bad. However, I realized that promoting bad policy does not automatically make you scummy. Further, I believe that Polish's willingness to actually communicate with me about it shows town intent. Finally, I think it's a fair wager that I was biased against polish because I dislike/d his leviathan bull****. I thought about all of this during the three IRL day night.

 

[Twitchybanana]

This discussion, which the coming deadline, is not conductive to scum hunting. We're putting one (myself) perhaps two (Corps) town players in the spotlight, while allowing at least one scum member to hide in the shadows while cackling maniacally.

I am the town role cop. Polish is town.

Now. Corps. Who do you find the scummiest? Orange, who do you find the scummiest? Aqua, who do you find the scummiest? Mist, who do you find the scummiest?

So. We need to actually do some scum hunting today. Even if I didn't swap my reads on polish, Corps' push is hot garbage and blatantly misrepresents what I've said/tries to find criminal intent where there is none. For this reason, until Corps, Mist, and Maven throw their hats into the ring, I'm going to Unvote. Vote: Corps Phoenix.

 

[Corps phoenix]

1. Why not come to that conclusion Day 1 when he asked you if you still thought he'd flip scum?
2. Does his willingness to talk make his actions (meaningless discussion, wifom, confusion, your word) ok?
3. I don't see that as a good justification for why you would be pushing Polish pretty hard.

 

[Corps phoenix]

@Polishnapkin I don't intend to push your slot toDay, and hopefully we can work together.

If you are cop, why make such an obvious read change here?

 

[Corps phoenix]

I am not role cop. Everyone else should respond if they are or are not role cop.

Also, I do not understand how a role cop can get an alignment... You'd find out his role, not his alignment. Please clarify.

If you are truly role cop, I'd look into Orange/Barman, who have said the least, or haven't even been around.

 

[Twitchybanana]

I was told he's VT. I made such an obvious read change because 1. I began to suspect he was town before I got my results, and 2. because I was hoping Polish would pick up on it.

 

[Twitchybanana]

I am not role cop. Everyone else should respond if they are or are not role cop.

Also, I do not understand how a role cop can get an alignment... You'd find out his role, not his alignment. Please clarify.

If you are truly role cop, I'd look into Orange/Barman, who have said the least, or haven't even been around.

Why not mist? Weren't you ready to lynch him a few posts ago?

 

[Corps phoenix]

If a player is a godfather you'd get a vt result. I still think that is a bit risky to open with as a cop.
Why did you claim early?

Why not mist? Weren't you ready to lynch him a few posts ago?

When did I say this?

 

[Corps phoenix]

I still think policy lynches are bad. However, I realized that promoting bad policy does not automatically make you scummy. Further, I believe that Polish's willingness to actually communicate with me about it shows town intent. Finally, I think it's a fair wager that I was biased against polish because I dislike/d his leviathan bull****. I thought about all of this during the three IRL day night.

Is this all still true, or a lie to hide behind your result? Just wondering.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Thinking about it now, I may gear up to switch to Barman (who has posted in his other game but not here at all, and he is past prod range) if you are really cop. Just try to think of my point of view, seeing such an obvious read change without much reason.

 

[Twitchybanana]

If a player is a godfather you'd get a vt result. I still think that is a bit risky to open with as a cop.
Why did you claim early?



When did I say this?

On mobile rn. Let me just answer the first question until i can get the quote. I claimed early because I think the risk vs reward makes sense. I get NK'd tonight in exchange for
-you being productive
-forcing the bandwagon to dissipate, making the players that aren't you and I contribute
-turning the course of the thread toward actual scumhunting.

The post you quoted was, in fact, true.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Fair enough. Since you claimed early, I'll also talk about Mist now.

Question: What is your read on Barman?

 

[Corps phoenix]

Unvote

 

[Twitchybanana]

Maven... Idk. The push on him was awful, but that doesn't make him town.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Generally, I find Morosemist to be an intelligent player, and he has a sound argument against Maven. Along with Maven's play (where is he?), it stacks up nicely. By itself, I would not really consider Barman. (Because I agree with Aqua that it is a Dumb vs Scum argument gone on for too long)

2. Mafia can't know if I'm really a vanilla townie or a PR whose just claiming to be one, therefore this discussion can't really narrow anything down

Here, he states this. For one thing, I don't know why this would be the case. Plus, a PR might not actually commit risky moves like that, so I don't think this would be the case. Occam's Razor.

Like, you claim VT to get us out of RVS, then say that Mafia can't know if you're really VT. You're implying here that you might actually not be VT and that your claim is suspect. There is literally no further point in discussing the prospects of whether or not you are VT at this juncture.

Here too. It would actually be better to run with the claim a little bit longer, so implying he may or may not be VT shows he may prefer less backlash. This shows a survival mindset.

No, he obviously did not hurt Town, you buffoon. I am displaying how he did not follow through with his intent. Ergo, he is scummy, because now it's a question of whether or not he was simply trying to look like he was doing something pro-town.

If you haven't noticed, the only discussion that has occurred is whether or not he is scummy for backtracking on his claim, not the initial claim to begin with. I figured a clever banana such as yourself would have noticed that by now.

The red is the important factor here that everyone seems to be missing. He may spark discussion, but the fact remains he may had done so to look pro-town, while helping town at the same time. By itself it would be little, but alongside a lackluster play it would make sense.

I would agree with you, except he claimed to do it to generate discussion: which is currently working.

The discussion is only a side effect of his actions. It worked but it doesn't change his original intention.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Morosemist:

Had a good observation of the early phase. (Stating there was meaningless discussion and wondering why Orange was so confident that he would not be outted by the mechanic)
Had a good argument against Maven.

That's all. I find his case was originally a case of Maven playing bad. Yet now, alongside Maven being past prod range, and posting frequently in his other game, shows that he may not care to find scum at all, and it would make sense with the intent to open the game to seem town. All this while I and Twitchy are duking it out. If Barman were present I'd have a harder time deciding. I have also been liking Aqua's observations as of late.

With Polish and Twitch possibly being cleared, Barman and Orange would be the best outlets to look into. Just look at who is present.

Finally, Orange has been wishy washy all game, and has also been stalling. Like I stated before, he has viewed multiple times without actually posting. I and others have asked him questions and he has still yet to answer.

 

[Corps phoenix]

@Polishnapkin: Need you in here soon. I don't expect immediate responses from orange and barman. Also would like updated reads on those two.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Orange I saw you there. Again you view without commenting on current events.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Barven89 has been prodded.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Spoiler: Orange Quotes and Context

I'm a bit suspicious of Protateus since he's frantically throwing shade on literally every slot that has posted thus far. Some of the pressure just doesn't make sense (like Barman "not calling me out" where the only thing I did at the point of his last post was a random vote).

I'll simply re-post what I said earlier:

Orange has misrepped Prota in the beginning, instead of observing his actions in a natural manner. I would expect a townie to react to things naturally, but instead he just stated "RVS is slow..." when he could have talked about prota.

What do you mean "true name"? Is that our true identity, or our role? In either scenario, I would ask of you the same question that you have asked me. If you get my identity correct, that means you have already claimed and that claim has been confirmed, which could possibly put you in the hot seat for the rest of the game. If you can correctly guess the name of my role, that confirms you as the cop and you more will likely be the target of NKs. If the true name is my true identity, that would confirm your role but we still couldn't be sure if the role is town (the way it's worded, it seems the Leviathan could be any faction).

Either way, I have nothing to hide. I will allow you to decide.

Wait, this makes me think he was on edge thinking Polish copped him. The underlined seems suspicious, trying to pin doubt on Polish's claim. Orange, can you explain Polish being 'any faction' by the way it is worded?

Even if there isn't a negative aspect of remaining hidden, we can't be sure, so we may as well stay hidden while we are at it. To that end, I am not sure why Orange is so confident that he won't be screwed over by the mechanics of the game.

Possibly because he knows he can't be screwed over, because he is scum. I ask you to re-visit this line of thinking.

You,. my Illuminated Illuminati have impossibly intruded upon an intellectual point I was intent on making. Here stands Orange, incoherent and an impostor to our band of illustrious townies. For his intelligence to jump to such an in depth and intrinsically interesting assumption that his role had been imparted upon by the ever impractical Leviathon, or even to think that Ingenuity had struck that self same man, to worry about his influence and appearance to the point of thinking Leviathon knew of his illegitimacy and be worried about it, certainly implies he has something worth hiding

Good post.

Also, i agree with your point on Orange, looked like light fishing and a bit of a backhanded threat to Leviathan about revealing his role, also his reaction made it seem like his role was something he didn't want to have revealed and if he's town he really shouldn't care if leviathans gonna oust that he's town. He can argue it'd be dumb, which it would be, but he still at the end of the day shouldn't care

Both good posts. Underlined, I agree that it seems like he reacted in a way that shows he has something to hide, and that he shouldn't care about it if he's town. Instead of trying to observe Polish, Orange instead was seeding doubt into him "If you truly know my true name, we can't be sure if your role is town." (That is a paraphrase) Yet, what is that supposed to mean? Only in the case if the person has a result on him, he might not be sure Polish is town or not? He is reacting when Polish had yet to give a result.

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Page 3

#107: Not much content, some response/defense to Prota/Polish.
#114: Not much, just him replying to Prota in a snippy manner, in reference to barman.

----

I tend to agree with this. Mavman seems a tad scummy, but I'm not willing to go as far as to lynch him off of it yet unless there is about to be a mislynch. In addition, if anyone votes for him at this point, he'll be at L-1 with 2 days to go in the phase; if he's town, scum could take advantage of that and get an easy mislynch. Then, the hammerman would state that they killed him to "advance a slowly-moving game" and they "thought he was scummy" (probably just reciting Moro's reasoning instead of using their own) to get off scot-free.

On the other hand, Ranivorous has been in-thread literally one time since the game started, put in a random vote (as we were exiting RVS and had content to make a more informed vote upon), and went right back into his hole. He has had almost a full 24 hours to respond to Aquarius, and yet has failed to do so. He's not the only one who has completely and utterly failed at being active in this game, but he's definitely the worst offender. As we get further into the game, an inactive and uninformed slot will hurt us a LOT as he could be easily manipulated and will slow down conversation more than it has already slowed.

I'm going to Vote: @Ranivorousbeast until he actually gets his butt in here and does something.

The wishy washiness I have spoken about. He agrees that Barman is scummy, yet never touches him. Here is also the weird logic that he uses to stay off Maven. He states that if there may be a myslynch, that he'd go towards Barman. Yet, Ran was myslynched. How could he have known? He has a iffy response to me stating this. (Which I ask about again below)

1. I went back to re-read (shortest D1 re-read of my life lol) and realized that I misunderstood the situation. Upon the re-read, I saw that you claimed VT, then immediately after, you said that there was literally no way to know if you were actually VT. This created a WIFOM that would have never created conversation in a normal game of Mafia and would have been called out as a garbage play, but instead, it created a grand total of a page and a half of content over the past 4 days (as opposed to the page and a quarter over the first 3 days).

2. That in of itself isn't scummy, but intentionally trying to make yourself look better for the rest of the thread could have more scummy intent behind it than townie intent. This isn't a point anymore, though, because you have kept your claim for VT despite pressure.

3. I completely agree. Neatness and thought collection isn't exactly great on 1% battery on Mobile Firefox SWF. I usually use Chrome as my main browser, but that has my main account logged in right now, so whatever.

1. There is no 'wifom' that will stop people from guessing a person is lying about their role or not. It's the same as any standard game. If this were true, no one would know to consider a town cop claim to be genuine or not. Why would Twitchy consider that he may be night killed if 'scum might not know if he's a pr or not'. Frankly, Maven's claim that scum won't know is bull****. Orange stating he believes this, is bull, especially after one post.

2. He backpedals immediately. He doesn't try to run with it long either. His change of stance is not believable. It might make sense if it takes a while, but he backs down as if he has no back bone.

3. I do not understand why the underlined would influence his wishy washiness on Barman and Ran. Seems like back talk.

With that said, Mavman is still providing decently useful content and I really don't want to lynch off of only 4 pages of a game and non-decisive evidence. I think that we should go for Raniverous so that we have more time to get stronger reads, but then again, a Barman flip could give us valuable info to actually start conversation.

More wishy washiness. He states a barman flip may be valuable, yet never comes back to this.

Quite honestly, I don't feel very comfortable with anyone being lynched off of 4 pages of content other than Ran based on level of commitment and generally bad play. Ran did a random vote post-RVS to prevent himself from being modkilled or replaced, left for another couple days, seemed miffed that nobody was defending his slot when he got back, kneejerked Polish for a completely garbage reason, implied a scumteam between Polish and Aquarious (without giving a reason), said Pro and BarMaven were fine (without giving a reason), and ignored my questioning of his post afterwards. I think he's the scummiest at this point. Who do you think we should lynch, Twitchy?

At this point, he is unsure besides Ran. That's it.

Page 5

#186: Page 5, Orange isn't around as much as he was in page 4. He only replies to respond to Prota stating Orange should be lynched, and throws in an agreement with Polish.

I'm not sure right now. I was planning on perusing Pro today, but that's obviously not an option. I'll have an answer when I have enough of a workload break to do a re-read.

Still unsure. He never really gets an answer.

Page 7

#278: His post seems like a re-read, but doesn't seem like it leads anywhere, no actual conclusion. He also doesn't comment on current events. It's only a re-read. He also re-enforces his Barman townread.

Summary for those who skim:

1. Orange's reaction to Polish's 'claim' is odd. Pins doubt on Polish without Polish even giving a result, which shows a guilty conscious.
2. Orange misreps Prota, as omgus. He never observes Prota's scumminess before hand, which doesn't show pro-town mindset.
3. Is wishy washy on Barman, and states multiple times he'd rather not lynch him over Ran through-out the early/mid game.
4. States he won't lynch barman unless there might be a mislynch, which is a very odd statement to say. How can he know this beforehand?
5. His push on Barman seems fake, he backtracks and states he believes the 'wifom'.
6. Is generally unsure on who else is scum after Ran flipping town.
7. Re-reading, never commenting on current events. Alot less posts then then his early game posting rate.
8. Has viewed multiple times and has left questions un-answered, absorbed in his re-read that doesn't really give him a new scumread.

Unvote; Vote: OrangexHtml

@Aquariusboy
@Polishnapkin
T Twitchybanana
@Morosemist

 

[Corps phoenix]

Spoiler: Barman Quotes and Context

Or did this guy really just think he got outed as mafia already? Why would he assume the other role was a cop and immediately think the Leviathan stuff was real and relating to it?

Starts off with a good read and reaction after Orange responds to Polish 'knowing his name'. He doesn't do much with it later on though. Never really conversed much with Prota about it, and never really explained why he was 'cool' with Orange later on in the day. Has he forgotten this due to having to defend his claim for a good chunk of time? Wait...

I'm really not ok with the way this game has been going, first I really doubt that's Leviathan and more then that who cares?

The anonymity looks like it's going to really hurt RVS so I'm going to roleclaim. I'm Vanilla townie

I have a theory, that Barman claimed (a very risky move) to distract from discussion between Polish and Orange. Orange agrees that Barman's move successfully changed the topic from Polish v Orange to "To be VT or not VT; that is the question." I would guess that if a scumpartner has witnessed his partner react to a guilty gambit, he'd do whatever he can to salvage the situation. This is what I think happened here. I have evidence to support his push on Orange is not genuine as well.

Page 3: Maven is mostly in defense mode on this page.

Don't like how wishy washy the post ended up, but with deadline 14 hours away I'm forced to agree to lynching Raniverous. There's not really another option, hopefully converstion will really pick up day 2.

Vote: Raniverous

This seems pretty weak. It seems like Barman had something at the start, and made sense. Protateus also made alot of sense, yet Barman never conversed with him further about that, only asking him to clarify his Vendetta speaking tendencies. Instead, he focues on defending himself, and not much more. He does like Barman's post talking about Orange hiding something.

He states he feels Orange is being wishy washy there to ease the transition from Orange to Ran, as if to make it genuine, when he hasn't really genuinely pushed it as far as he could, because he had plenty of ammo.

We cool

I agree that Ran needs to get lynched today, I don't think anyone has done anything scummy enough to override someone not posting at all

It seems odd for Barman to be alright with Orange after having a 'useful avenue' to push, which he hadn't really pushed.


#159: Here, he argues that if Polish and himself didn't do anything, there'd be no content to find anyone.

With just that, the only thing left would be a no lynch (horrible), or we lynch someone who hasn't posted a thing. The later gives us some information, and with nothing scummy being done it's the best option.

I think anyone would have suggested a policy lynch at this point, and I don't think we should jump on Polish for being the one to do so. If it wasn't him it'd be someone else.

I think he argues this to convince Twitch to lynch Ran. Scum want a mislynch, and the town is pretty lazy, so they have to work hard to achieve it. I feel this is the most effort I have seen Barman pull to achieve something, which came to a myslynch.
---

Page 5

Problem is that it is between lynching him or a mislynch. There's not another option. You're suggesting we lynch the person who suggested that, but that's something anyone would suggest. Pretend no one said that. Who would you want lynched in that scenario?

More of the same thing.

---

Page 6

No sign of Barman.

---

Page 7

No sign of Barman.

---

Page 8

No sign of Barman. Yet.

Summary for those who skimmed:

1. Has been completely absent from play on Day 2 so far. Possibly scum who gave up, and has no other paths to walk. He has been posting in his other game.
2. Maven claims vt to distract from discussion between Polish v Orange.
3. Maven votes Orange, yet never does much with it. Focuses on his defense.
4. Transitions from a good push to Ran, a policy lynch. With a weak transition.
5. Is 'cool' with Orange, seems fake after having a hard entrance onto his wagon.
6. Focuses a bit much to push the Ran lynch, more than he has for a Orange lynch from early game.

FoS: BarmanUK

@Aquariusboy
@Polishnapkin
T Twitchybanana
@Morosemist

 

[Corps phoenix]

How is this different from any other time any player has claimed VT in all other mafia games?

It was un-prompted, if he was townie. This is different because it seems like he's doing so to distract from the 'meaningless discussion' happening on page 2. Also because of my theory I have explained in the Barman spoiler.

Vote: BarmanUK

I don't like that he claimed to be VT under the pretenses of 'trying to start discussion', then claimed that he 'may not actually be VT and was trying to cause more wifom for scum.' He didn't accomplish much with this approach and ultimately fell flat on his face when asked why he did it. The attempt seems not so genuine since there was no follow-through.

I want to address this post for Twitchy. His point wasn't that the vague vt claim didn't actually create discussion. The point was regardless of the positive of his action, his intent was to post that claim to appear pro-town while creating discussion as a side-effect. (Yet I have a different idea of why he did it, please read the Barman spoiler to find out what it is)

I also do not buy any Orange angles that exist or hold over from the previous phase: I still believe he is one of the towniest slots alive. I cited his post count being the highest in the game and that he has not shied away from addressing major points yesterday; that still rings true. I also want to note that on two seperate occasions, he realized that the angle he was attacking was wrong and left it alone instantly. This occurred both on page 2 when he attacked my claims of being Leviathan as well as Page 4 when he realized the bartender lynch was rather weak and dropped that as well. I also do not believe that a member of the mafioso makes this claim:

Lastly, I still stand by my claims that the Bartender is likely town due to the unlikeliness that mafia would claim VT on D1 to get the game going. That said, I am not personally fond of his attachment to the armchair and I would prefer for him to become more involved in the game as of now. His inertia may simply be a product of the lack of effort exerted by the rest of the game but that is only an assumption I can make, not necessarily fact.

I think you are very wrong. Even I can be wrong (and just was), and I do not fault you or Twitchy for it. I think Orange's 'townieness' has sunk as his post count did. He hasn't been as present as he was earlier game. He also has no direction today, and when he did post, he was posting a re-read, and never quick comments on current events. I implore you to re-consider, look at my case on him.

Underlined, I think it may be likely in this extreme case. I have evidence to support it as well. Now, it's understandable for one to claim a role if it didn't matter. Yet in this game it still does matter. His 'wifom' thing doesn't apply. I don't understand why people buy that, and he'll need to clarify that. Yet, in that situation, he could have done any number of things, and not have claimed. It was more of a desperate move. Also, it makes sense along with his whole play. He hasn't been around D2 at all, even past being prodded.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Twitch, I can now understand why you have had the 'strong dislike' of my reads, especially Polish. I want you to understand that I was wrong, and want you to try to see from my point of view. Your sudden turn at the beginning of Day 2 was very odd. Cops usually leave crumbs, and not sudden unexplained read changes. Saying things like "It came to me..." just sounds like lies. Voting Morosemist on the basis of a 'blatant lie' seemed very weak. You, as cop, have played a weak cop game, and I wasn't expecting it. I would hope your future games, you play the cop role a bit more conservatively. Yet you are still the cop, and these two (Orange and Barman) are not even around much, Barman less so. I have come to my senses. I truly believed you and Polish were scum, and now truly realize that I was wrong. It happens.

Now please consider my two new avenues, which thankfully from realizing you and Polish are clear, I have found. I strongly feel you and Polish are wrong on Rose, and I have already explained why. I am willing to converse more. Yet time is of the essence! We have until tomorrow, Monday. I have been up all night constructing these posts. I feel we have something with these two cases. I want you to tell me what you think of my overall play, in addition to my push on you. Don't solely focus on that alone. I will most likely be going to sleep soon, unless anything keeps me stimulated. Good night. (Or morning)

 

[Maven89]

Uh, Barman told me to apologize to you guys for not being here and wanted me to tell you he's going to put way more effort into the game and hopes everyone can forgive him. He's also on phone so can't post himself. He also wanted me to tell you that I'm stupid and dumb and like ribbons in my hair

 

[Twitchybanana]

Alright mafia-ing now.

 

[Twitchybanana]

I'll simply re-post what I said earlier:

Orange has misrepped Prota in the beginning, instead of observing his actions in a natural manner. I would expect a townie to react to things naturally, but instead he just stated "RVS is slow..." when he could have talked about prota.

I dislike this argument. It's scummy, but only if you're really looking to find something scummy. It's odd, I suppose, but not of much significance imo.

Wait, this makes me think he was on edge thinking Polish copped him. The underlined seems suspicious, trying to pin doubt on Polish's claim. Orange, can you explain Polish being 'any faction' by the way it is worded?

Again, this could be looked at as scummy, but it's not much. It's not a good argument to lynch someone on.

Possibly because he knows he can't be screwed over, because he is scum. I ask you to re-visit this line of thinking.

How would being scum make him know that? Unless scum are fully informed of the intricacies of the games' mechanics, scum would be in the same boat.

Good post.

Mmmmm. We all have something to hide -- our true identities and roles. Not inherently scummy.

Both good posts. Underlined, I agree that it seems like he reacted in a way that shows he has something to hide, and that he shouldn't care about it if he's town. Instead of trying to observe Polish, Orange instead was seeding doubt into him "If you truly know my true name, we can't be sure if your role is town." (That is a paraphrase) Yet, what is that supposed to mean? Only in the case if the person has a result on him, he might not be sure Polish is town or not? He is reacting when Polish had yet to give a result.

Bad argument. Regardless of role and alignment, we don't want our information revealed. Regarding the doubt-seed thing this is, again, confirmation bias. Yes you could argue it's planting a seed of doubt, but the doubt-planting statement is objectively correct, and thus a not inherently scummy point to make.

The wishy washiness I have spoken about. He agrees that Barman is scummy, yet never touches him. Here is also the weird logic that he uses to stay off Maven. He states that if there may be a myslynch, that he'd go towards Barman. Yet, Ran was myslynched. How could he have known? He has a iffy response to me stating this. (Which I ask about again below)

Wishy-washiness, or a townie being unsure of his reads because of inactivity. Again, for your argument to make any sense, you have to assume orange is up to no good.

1. There is no 'wifom' that will stop people from guessing a person is lying about their role or not. It's the same as any standard game. If this were true, no one would know to consider a town cop claim to be genuine or not. Why would Twitchy consider that he may be night killed if 'scum might not know if he's a pr or not'. Frankly, Maven's claim that scum won't know is bull****. Orange stating he believes this, is bull, especially after one post.

2. He backpedals immediately. He doesn't try to run with it long either. His change of stance is not believable. It might make sense if it takes a while, but he backs down as if he has no back bone.

3. I do not understand why the underlined would influence his wishy washiness on Barman and Ran. Seems like back talk.

1. Fair enough.
2. Not backpedaling. Merely weighing pros and cons.
3. Not wishy-washy. Just not committing to a read he isn't confident in. There's a reason you don't use warlock punch if you think they're going to double spot dodge.

More wishy washiness. He states a barman flip may be valuable, yet never comes back to this.

Perhaps, but why would he need to restate it later?

At this point, he is unsure besides Ran. That's it.

Which is a completely fair and reasonable position based on content up to that point.

Page 5

#186: Page 5, Orange isn't around as much as he was in page 4. He only replies to respond to Prota stating Orange should be lynched, and throws in an agreement with Polish.

Still unsure. He never really gets an answer.

Page 7

#278: His post seems like a re-read, but doesn't seem like it leads anywhere, no actual conclusion. He also doesn't comment on current events. It's only a re-read. He also re-enforces his Barman townread

This is all fair.

Starts off with a good read and reaction after Orange responds to Polish 'knowing his name'. He doesn't do much with it later on though. Never really conversed much with Prota about it, and never really explained why he was 'cool' with Orange later on in the day. Has he forgotten this due to having to defend his claim for a good chunk of time? Wait...

I have a theory, that Barman claimed (a very risky move) to distract from discussion between Polish and Orange. Orange agrees that Barman's move successfully changed the topic from Polish v Orange to "To be VT or not VT; that is the question." I would guess that if a scumpartner has witnessed his partner react to a guilty gambit, he'd do whatever he can to salvage the situation. This is what I think happened here. I have evidence to support his push on Orange is not genuine as well.

This is so... Insubstantial. It's plausible, but it could just be sloppy town (a plight I know all too well) or some other causality. Your theory of mafia teamwork can't be part of the reason you think someone is mafia. You have to scum read them in a vacuum, then look at possible correlation with other players, etc.

This seems pretty weak. It seems like Barman had something at the start, and made sense. Protateus also made alot of sense, yet Barman never conversed with him further about that, only asking him to clarify his Vendetta speaking tendencies. Instead, he focues on defending himself, and not much more. He does like Barman's post talking about Orange hiding something.

He states he feels Orange is being wishy washy there to ease the transition from Orange to Ran, as if to make it genuine, when he hasn't really genuinely pushed it as far as he could, because he had plenty of ammo.

...I guess this is correct? Technically? All your pushes feel like you're reading too much into human tendencies.

It seems odd for Barman to be alright with Orange after having a 'useful avenue' to push, which he hadn't really pushed.


#159: Here, he argues that if Polish and himself didn't do anything, there'd be no content to find anyone.

I think he argues this to convince Twitch to lynch Ran. Scum want a mislynch, and the town is pretty lazy, so they have to work hard to achieve it. I feel this is the most effort I have seen Barman pull to achieve something, which came to a myslynch.

This is a good point, and worth pursuing. However, we can't hold someone accountable for a D1 ML to the point of lynching them, because D1 MLs are things that happen.

I want to address this post for Twitchy. His point wasn't that the vague vt claim didn't actually create discussion. The point was regardless of the positive of his action, his intent was to post that claim to appear pro-town while creating discussion as a side-effect. (Yet I have a different idea of why he did it, please read the Barman spoiler to find out what it is)

Fair enough.

----

Corps, you're a very interesting slot. Without looking at the details of your actions, you seem very town-y. You've made seemingly well thought out cases, brought activity to the thread, and seem to be inclined to scum hunting. However... The devil is in the details. All of your pushes (two of which we know to be incorrect) thus far have worked off of an assumption of guilt, or have simply read very far into simple human tendencies. Your cases draw their persuasiveness from screening any given action in the worse way possible. That's how you get lynches as scum.

So, I'm willing to pursue and discuss your cases toDay, likely to the point of lynching one of them, but if you lead us to a mislynch toDay, I want your head toMorrow.

 

[Twitchybanana]

I also want everyone other than myself and corps to comment on corps' cases and give a read on corps. I want to see if anyone else sees what I see.

 

[Twitchybanana]

Also, it's worth noting that while I feel all of Aqua's post have solid, Town-ily oriented content, he, as far as I remember, has not made a single push this game. Js.

 

[OrangeXhtml]

Continuing my re-read; I'll get to conclusions at the end of the read, and I apologize that my schedule has been REALLY busy.

I'd have to reread to answer that with any confidence. That said, ANY OTHER lynch REGARDLESS of outcome puts town in a better position than a ran lynch. Pushing a ran lynch is inherently anti-town, if not directly scummy.

Good *** question. @Ranivorousbeast I'm boutta hammer you if you don't commit to being active. It's better than a no lynch.

Why did you neglect to vote Ran, then? Aquarius finally hammered 4 minutes after the end of the phase.

Mod: Request replacement on Morosemist, since he outted a while ago, before I was replaced

That's a bit odd to request replacement, seeing as I don't recall him being one of the most inactive slots in the last phase.

If you want to claim VT and cause discussion to occur as a result of claiming VT, you don't provide reasonable doubt for the legitimacy of your claim. You sit on the claim and wait for actual discussion to occur. All he accomplished was explaining why what he did was being pro-town while not accomplishing anything with the claim because he immediately provided for reasonable doubt.

No one, as far as I can remember, actually discussed the legitimacy of his claim to any serious degree except for me, because he immediately dismantled the potential for discussion by providing reasonable doubt.

It's like a player who claims a gun, then in the exact next post says he actually might not have a gun, but claimed as such to get discussion going. You're never going to look good for making that kind of play, ever, regardless of what your intentions may have been, but if you're going to make that play, it makes sense to stick to your proverbial guns and wait until actual discussion has occurred before providing reasonable doubt.

I've already explained this concept before, so your confidence is amusing at best.

This is an interesting PoV... I've never considered this before.

Summary for those who skim:

1. He never interacts with Morose or others, only with Polish, and gives reads on Polish, Orange, and Aqua.

He's also interacted with Barman, and the reason he hasn't interacted with them much is probably because we have been the main topics of conversation for the game thus far (other than Aqua). You hadn't become the driving force that you are right now.

2. He keeps his options open on Ran, while arguing against it in the same token.

Post # please? I'm just quickly going through this because I only have 10 minutes.

3. His #205 comes out of left field, and 180s on his strong stance of Polish without any notice or good reason.

A re-read, good night's sleep, and re-thinking the slot from a different PoV is enough of a reason.

4. His #210 States he strongly dislikes my conclusions without having any strong conclusions himself.

His opposition of your conclusions is a strong conclusion, plus I could point out a few places where he's stuck his neck out opposing thread sentiment.

5. Stalls many times, and hides behind Polish's push to support it, and votes Morose. (Who he had not even interacted with to develop a read)

Haven't seen much stalling from him, but the second point is fair enough.

6. His stalling and weak reasons to support his switch seem like lying, and I can see through it and I think others can too.

You literally just re-stated two of your points in a sixth point.

I'm out of time and will be coming back later tonight. I have part of an analysis typed up that I will post as soon as I get back.

Also, the reason you may see me viewing thread frequently is because my phone says that it's still in-thread even if it's locked.

 

[Corps phoenix]

T Twitchybanana :

Actually, that was my first observation upon replacing. So it's not something I would 'look for', and I think you have agreed with it before. When someone claims 'they know our name' we don't jump to the conclusion that person has a cop result on us. Townies will simply assume just about the name. There is no need to add in the 'he may or may not be town' bit. Only scum will worry about a person having their 'true name' because the person would know he's a mafia whatever. A person would not come out with a result so early unless it was a worth while result. (Not innocent) He did backtrack, (concede) and he admitted here:

I was conceding that I was wrong. Also, I came back and re-read after dinner and watching the Peanuts Movie with my family, and I can see where you're coming from.

By themselves, it is not enough. Yet alongside the rest of his play, it makes sense. He's not even reading. He just replied to my case on you before you claimed cop. That's just redundant. He is sort of present, but not really, as he's only around to 're-read' and never can stay for a conversation. It's taking him until one day before deadline, to actually have a conclusion. That's a bit too long.

---

My points on Barman are weaker, because he is a weaker read. I give out the point that he claims vt to distract from the polish v orange mess, because people are still confused about it. It just doesn't make sense for a townie to just claim when there are other ways to start off early game with a gambit. (Such as voting, bandwagoning, gambiting as vig, etc) Now answer this. If role 'wifom' isn't a real thing, why did he use that answer instead of a different one? I understand that well. But I am considering why he would do it as scum. Why would he do this as town? (Because they don't care about their wincon, are a town vi, etc)

Yet, Maven is a good player. Crazy, but good, not a VI. Town wouldn't throw out their claim because it does help scum narrow down pr's. Town doesn't have reasons to go ape **** because they only know their own role pm. VT's are meant to play in a way to draw night kills, to protect pr's. Once scum know a person is vt, they can look elsewhere, drawing the pool of 'possibly pr' down. So, saying 'scum don't know whether he is vt or pr' isn't a valid answer, because that is not the case and you know it. Therefore, Maven claiming in such a way with an invalid answer, doesn't make sense from a town perspective, wouldn't you agree? If you disagree, I want you to then show what exactly the town perspective would be. Finally, he hasn't been here except to apologize about not being her. Do you think that is acceptable, one day away from deadline? I think not. That is the nail in his coffin.

 

[Corps phoenix]

T Twitchybanana :

Also, I am usually quite detailed with my cases and observations. I also have studied psychology and am a social work major, so that should clue you into why I look into 'human tendencies'. I don't understand why you think one shouldn't look for human tendencies when reading people. I say it's a must. I look pretty deeply, indeed. I think you are focusing too 'on the surface'. You have to know what a person is thinking and get inside their head to really understand their intentions and motivations, wouldn't you say?

OrangeXhtml :

How can you know 'there is about to be a mislynch' in the first place? Guess what, there was a mislynch in Raniverus, why didn't you move to Barman then?

I actually want you respond to this again. Your first answer wasn't suitable, actually.

 

[OrangeXhtml]

I actually want you respond to this again. Your first answer wasn't suitable, actually.

I don't care what you think is suitable or not, my first answer is true.

T Twitchybanana :

Actually, that was my first observation upon replacing. So it's not something I would 'look for', and I think you have agreed with it before. When someone claims 'they know our name' we don't jump to the conclusion that person has a cop result on us. Townies will simply assume just about the name. There is no need to add in the 'he may or may not be town' bit. Only scum will worry about a person having their 'true name' because the person would know he's a mafia whatever. A person would not come out with a result so early unless it was a worth while result. (Not innocent) He did backtrack, (concede) and he admitted here:

Actually, I was genuinely curious about the nature of the claim. "True Name" could refer to our normal accounts or our role IDs, and if I were Mafia, would I have really given Polish the opportunity to reveal my identity? The whole "he may or may not be town" bit was so that people wouldn't auto-confirm him if I corroborated that is ability is real.

By themselves, it is not enough. Yet alongside the rest of his play, it makes sense. He's not even reading. He just replied to my case on you before you claimed cop. That's just redundant. He is sort of present, but not really, as he's only around to 're-read' and never can stay for a conversation. It's taking him until one day before deadline, to actually have a conclusion. That's a bit too long.

I replied to your case on him because I was trying to figure out your reasoning at the time and hadn't gotten to the new part yet. I've been perpetually behind this phase because I've had a APCS Final Project to work on, an APCS Test, a CET quiz, a bunch of CET worksheets, three AP Stats quizzes and a test (all of these things in the space of 3 days), two full-length parades, a friend's birthday party, church, Christmas caroling, and 3-hour marching band practices pretty much every day after school this week. I dunno about you, but I'm pretty happy that I've gotten to read everything up to the last page with the unexpected workload this week/weekend. I'll be reading up so that I don't post uninformed garbage about newer stuff than I have read up on, but if you have any more direct questions for me, I'll be around for a little bit.