Marx Rolls In! - "Now I can cause all the mischief I want!" - Dream Friend DLC Has Launched!

[Morbi]

Unfortunately, despite all of his cameos, it just does not mean much. It never really helped Impa or Tingle, and I would argue that their roles amount to much more than merely a simple cameo. Not only that, but the reality is that Sakurai has a bias against antagonist characters, as is. Beyond that, given just how recent his inclusion was, and I suppose Sakurai related Kirby bias, it is highly doubtful he will be considered for DLC, let alone the base game. It just makes no sense when his competition (more like competitor) is so stiff and therein lies my favorite and least favorite part about speculation. The best part is, I got to learn about this character and I would LOVE to play as him, I am already becoming a huge fan and I do not have much investment in the series as a whole. The worst part, the reality is some characters are just better fits for assist trophies.

 

[StormC]

His Final Smash has to be his face-splitting black hole, there's nothing more fitting.

I think Marx Soul should be his Final Smash. I think the black hole could be a Down Smash.

Not only that, but the reality is that Sakurai has a bias against antagonist characters, as is.

I don't think Sakurai really has a bias against villains. The only major Nintendo villains really left are K. Rool and Ridley, and both have, well... different reasons for their exclusions than just being villains.

 

[Morbi]

I think Marx Soul should be his Final Smash. I think the black hole could be a Down Smash.



I don't think Sakurai really has a bias against villains. The only major Nintendo villains really left are K. Rool and Ridley, and both have, well... different reasons for their exclusions than just being villains.

Eh, whatever you say. I would argue that Ganondorf remaining a clone (and not adding Ganon, the monster form), Pokemon missing out on Meowth, Porky from Mother, any of the three obvious F-Zero antagonists, cutting Wolf and never adding Andross, no Hades or Medusa (albeit, it could be forgiven with the circumstances of the series being new and adding Dark Pit as well), and if they could not add Ridley, Dark Samus would work quite easily, and I am not really sure what you are referring to when you state that King K. Rool had a "reason" for being discluded.

It paints a pretty obvious picture of bias unless you want to blatantly pretend otherwise, I suppose. To that end, you are correct, good sir.

 

[StormC]

I would argue that Ganondorf remaining a clone (and not adding Ganon, the monster form), Pokemon missing out on Meowth, Porky from Mother, any of the three obvious F-Zero antagonists, cutting Wolf and never adding Andross, no Hades or Medusa (albeit, it could be forgiven with the circumstances of the series being new and adding Dark Pit as well), and if they could not add Ridley, Dark Samus would work quite easily, and I am not really sure what you are referring to when you state that King K. Rool had a "reason" for being discluded.

Seems pretty clear to me K. Rool wasn't added because he wasn't in a game besides a baseball spin-off since Brawl. Smash 4 was all about """relevancy."""

Ganondorf and Wolf I'll give you, but for the others...

-Meowth has never been a villain in the games (unless you want to count Team Rocket in Yellow). Mewtwo is something of a "final boss" in Red and Blue, and was also a final boss in the Pokemon Stadium games.
-Porky would probably be the best pick for another Mother character but it's a dead series.
-Andross would be completely impractical in Smash. Not just because of his size but how he fights; it's far too abstract to translate to Smash in a way that makes sense and actually represents the character. At least someone like Ridley could fight in a way resembling his boss battles.
-Hades and Medusa are too new as you say.
-Dark Samus would work but if Ridley isn't getting in, I doubt we're getting any other Metroid characters.
-F-Zero is a dead series without characters that translate easily to Smash (except giving Black Shadow the Falcondorf set).

It paints a pretty obvious picture of bias unless you want to blatantly pretend otherwise, I suppose. To that end, you are correct, good sir.

I think a character should be added for a reason besides "they're a villain." Sakurai seems to agree.

 

[Deleted member]

Eh, whatever you say. I would argue that Ganondorf remaining a clone (and not adding Ganon, the monster form), Pokemon missing out on Meowth, Porky from Mother, any of the three obvious F-Zero antagonists, cutting Wolf and never adding Andross, no Hades or Medusa (albeit, it could be forgiven with the circumstances of the series being new and adding Dark Pit as well), and if they could not add Ridley, Dark Samus would work quite easily, and I am not really sure what you are referring to when you state that King K. Rool had a "reason" for being discluded.

It paints a pretty obvious picture of bias unless you want to blatantly pretend otherwise, I suppose. To that end, you are correct, good sir.

A majority of those aren't in Smash for a lot more than just "bias against antagonists".

You're just making up excuses.

EDIT: ....yeah, that was a little too confrontational on my part, sorry.

The point is, none of those examples you gave is a legitimate example of Sakurai having a bias against antagonists. There's simply more to it than that.

 

[Morbi]

Seems pretty clear to me K. Rool wasn't added because he wasn't in a game besides a baseball spin-off since Brawl. Smash 4 was all about """relevancy."""

Ganondorf and Wolf I'll give you, but for the others...

-Meowth has never been a villain in the games (unless you want to count Team Rocket in Yellow). Mewtwo is something of a "final boss" in Red and Blue, and was also a final boss in the Pokemon Stadium games.
-Porky would probably be the best pick for another Mother character but it's a dead series.
-Andross would be completely impractical in Smash. Not just because of his size but how he fights; it's far too abstract to translate to Smash in a way that makes sense and actually represents the character. At least someone like Ridley could fight in a way resembling his boss battles.
-Hades and Medusa are too new as you say.
-Dark Samus would work but if Ridley isn't getting in, I doubt we're getting any other Metroid characters.
-F-Zero is a dead series without characters that translate easily to Smash (except giving Black Shadow the Falcondorf set).



I think a character should be added for a reason besides "they're a villain." Sakurai seems to agree.

I suppose it depends, that never really stopped any character from getting into the game before and I am not sure why a more recent appeareance would drastically change anything.

The Pokemon are loosely based on the anime. It is why we have Jigglypuff, it is why Lucario uses Aura, and it is why Mewtwo talks. So it is definitely plausible. Mewtwo, while being a final boss, is not an antagonist.

It was not dead when he added Ness or Lucas. He had an oppurtunity then, and he avoided it, because of bias.

I believe there is a human form of Andross. I am not literally asking the floating head.

I thought Medusa was the original antagonist. Albeit, it is pretty hilarious that Smash 4 was all about ""relevancy"" and yet they were too relevant. Ha ha ha...

Perhaps Sylux, or maybe not, because he is an antagonist.

Same as Mother, it was not dead in the beginning and Black Shadow replacing Falconforf would be a viable option if Sakurai were not biased, as I stated before.

Most of these characters have plenty more than "just an antagonist." I specifically chose ones that had more. I could list even more antagonists, but I chose to pick the obvious important ones that likely would have made it in if someone else were in charge.

 

[StormC]

It was not dead when he added Ness or Lucas. He had an oppurtunity then, and he avoided it, because of bias.

I believe there is a human form of Andross. I am not literally asking the floating head.

I thought Medusa was the original antagonist. Albeit, it is pretty hilarious that Smash 4 was all about ""relevancy"" and yet they were too relevant. Ha ha ha...

Perhaps Sylux, or maybe not, because he is an antagonist.

Same as Mother, it was not dead in the beginning and Black Shadow replacing Falconforf would be a viable option if Sakurai were not biased, as I stated before.

Most of these characters have plenty more than "just an antagonist." I specifically chose ones that had more. I could list even more antagonists, but I chose to pick the obvious important ones that likely would have made it in if someone else were in charge.

-If people were complaining about Fire Emblem getting two new characters in Smash 4, they certainly wouldn't be happy about two Mother characters getting added to Brawl. And before Brawl Porky only appeared in one game, so fat chance he was ever going to be considered before then.

-The human form of Andross never appears in the games proper and has no attacks or moves to speak of. It wouldn't represent the character in any meaningful way.

-Medusa was the boss of the NES Kid Icarus but her role in Uprising was pretty small. Sakurai doesn't really have a good reason to add these characters over Palutena and two non-clone additions to Kid Icarus in the same game would be completely unreasonable.

-Sylux is such a minor character to Metroid at this time that Sakurai would never add him.

You seem caught up on these characters for some reason when in reality there are more important characters, both from their own franchises and from Nintendo in general, to be added. The reason people want characters like K. Rool and Ridley is not because they're semi-important villains in their series, it's because they are characters that would make for good Smash fighters and at this point there's very few, if any, Nintendo characters as important or more important than them left to add.

 

[Morbi]

A majority of those aren't in Smash for a lot more than just "bias against antagonists".

You're just making up excuses.

EDIT: ....yeah, that was a little too confrontational on my part, sorry.

The point is, none of those examples you gave is a legitimate example of Sakurai having a bias against antagonists. There's simply more to it than that.

Sorry, I missed this. I am not saying that he has a bias against specific antagonists and I understand that there are other reasons to avoid these characters, I am just noticing a general trend. There are only 7 out of 58 characters in Smash that are anti-hero or antagonist. Two of these, about a third of them, come from his own series. Three of them, about half, are Mario series originated. And the last two are literally clones.

An antagonist is the driving force of a narrative, without them, there is no conflict. Therefore, by extension, antagonists are often quite important to the story and as a result, become popular characters. It is clear Sakurai prefers other character archetypes based on his choices. Or in other words, he has, at the very least, a soft bias.

-If people were complaining about Fire Emblem getting two new characters in Smash 4, they certainly wouldn't be happy about two Mother characters getting added to Brawl. And before Brawl Porky only appeared in one game, so fat chance he was ever going to be considered before then.

-The human form of Andross never appears in the games proper and has no attacks or moves to speak of. It wouldn't represent the character in any meaningful way.

-Medusa was the boss of the NES Kid Icarus but her role in Uprising was pretty small. Sakurai doesn't really have a good reason to add these characters over Palutena and two non-clone additions to Kid Icarus in the same game would be completely unreasonable.

-Sylux is such a minor character to Metroid at this time that Sakurai would never add him.

You seem caught up on these characters for some reason when in reality there are more important characters, both from their own franchises and from Nintendo in general, to be added. The reason people want characters like K. Rool and Ridley is not because they're semi-important villains in their series, it's because they are characters that would make for good Smash fighters and at this point there's very few, if any, Nintendo characters as important or more important than them left to add.

He was originally going to replace Ness, so you never know, it might not have been terrible.

Same as Fox, I suppose. You could reference aspects of the boss fight and incorporate them with originality.

Yep, I prefer Hades myself, but I definitely already addressed those circumstances above. I am not trying to prove that these characters are viable, I am just talking about how they were either forgotten or just added as bosses or assists, by the way. As apparently that is not clear.

It was mostly a joke (hence the troll emoji), we need to see how they handle him in Prime 4.

Not really, while I would love to see them, I am not really expecting them in any capacity. The only antagonist I am truly attached to is Black Shadow. Other than that, I would potentially believe Ganon, and Wolf's return are not asking too much. If he can get Ridley and King K. Rool to work, great.

My only point was that antagonists are clearly subject to bias. I have no idea why Marx would be among the first to truly break the mold.

 

[Deleted member]

The Pokemon are loosely based on the anime. It is why we have Jigglypuff, it is why Lucario uses Aura, and it is why Mewtwo talks. So it is definitely plausible. Mewtwo, while being a final boss, is not an antagonist.

Lucario using Aura as means of combat has nothing to do with the movie he's from. That's just a Lucario trait.

As for Mewtwo, he's treated in an antagonistic light within Smash, which can especially be seen in Melee with Event 51. This is very likely due to his characterization within the movie, where he was the antagonist.

As for why not Meowth, perhaps he just doesn't see any point in him?
Jigglypuff is not a good counterpoint for Meowth, as Jigglypuff was an easy add in 64 using pre-existing data from Kirby and served as a joke character designed to be pathetically weak.
Timing also worked in Jigglypuff's favor, too. Had Jigglypuff not been a recurring gag in the anime at that point, it's highly unlikely she would be in Smash Bros. at all to this day.

And considering it took until Brawl for even someone like Charizard to be included when Charizard is one of THE most significant and popular Pokémon in the franchise, do you REALLY want to argue that Meowth hasn't been included over some stupid bias?

It was not dead when he added Ness or Lucas. He had an oppurtunity then, and he avoided it, because of bias.

Because not adding Porky of all characters means he's biased against antagonists.

Despite not being "dead", it was still a very niche series. So niche, that Ness was originally going to be scrapped in Melee in favor of the Earthbound 64 protagonist before that game got cancelled. So GOOD IDEA! Let's add Porky when Ness HIMSELF was on the chopping block!
And when Lucas was added to the roster, Mother 3 wasn't actually released yet. It was still in development.
So which makes more sense? Including the protagonist of the soon to be released game, who happened to be the same character who was going to be in Melee in place of Ness initially, or adding a secondary villain from Ness' game?

I believe there is a human form of Andross. I am not literally asking the floating head.

There has never been a "humanoid" Andross in the games outside of brief flashbacks.
Which itself is not grounds for being playable in Smash.

I thought Medusa was the original antagonist. Albeit, it is pretty hilarious that Smash 4 was all about ""relevancy"" and yet they were too relevant. Ha ha ha...

So Sakurai is biased against antagonists because he didn't include Medusa and Hades alongside Palutena and Dark Pit?
As if we needed more reason for people to ***** about a "Kid Icarus bias" on his part.

Same as Mother, it was not dead in the beginning and Black Shadow replacing Falconforf would be a viable option if Sakurai were not biased, as I stated before.

Or maybe, just maybe....Black Shadow didn't get Ganondorf's moveset because Sakurai didn't want to drastically change Ganondorf and wanted to keep him as the slow and powerful heavyhitter he was designed as in Melee?
Or maybe he simply doesn't like the idea of just passing off the "scraps" of a character to some other character just for the sake of rebuilding the first character from scratch when time is an issue?

But no, that would make too much sense. It's obviously just because he has a bias against antagonists!

Most of these characters have plenty more than "just an antagonist." I specifically chose ones that had more. I could list even more antagonists, but I chose to pick the obvious important ones that likely would have made it in if someone else were in charge.

You clearly have no idea how characters get in Smash or how development works if you think even ONE of those characters would have been included solely due to a different director.



EDIT: Yeah, I know I'm getting confrontational.
At this point, I don't care.

If someone makes a bold, irrational claim, has faulty "evidence" for the claim, and tries to use the claim to argue against an unrelated character, I'm not pulling any punches.

 

[MrElectroG64]

If Marx doesn’t make it into this game I hope he gets another major role soon (preferably as a villain again) so his profile can be raised for future Smash entries.

Serious question, what would he grab stuff with?

well, apparently, nothing, lol. Though I'd prefer he grabs people with his mouth, making the same face as his mouth laser.

 

[60Watt]

After some deep consideration, I have decided that Marx is my preferred Kirby rep, though any Kirby rep would be nice. I support!

 

[PeridotGX]

so guis i made a pretty gud marx moveset and i think i shuld put it here

(That hurt a little to write. Anyways, better time then ever to share my abysmal Marx Moveset from the Smash 4 era. Don't even put it in the OP, and if you do put it in with the Marx falling off the ball.)

Spoiler: Abysmal Miiverse Marx Moveset

The Freezer Force was a Miiverse group that Made Movesets

 

[Watch Out!]

This guy definitely has my support. I would probably main him, too. And the DLC for Star Allies boost his chances, so we have that to be thankful for.

 

[Professor Lexicovermis]

I'm back!

Apologies for my absence; the OP now has all the supporters I missed!

 

[MrElectroG64]

I'm back!

Apologies for my absence; the OP now has all the supporters I missed!

very nice my dude. and speaking of supporters, we're already just one shy of 50! That's awesome! I honestly can't believe the amount of support Marx has gotten already, it's really great.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

I guess I never properly stated it but I'm super in support of Marx for Smash

 

[MrElectroG64]

So who here has been playing as Marx in the Ultimate Choice and Guest Star?

What's you best scores in the Ultimate Choice? What team(s) did you use?

 

[TooBadWaluigiTime]

I never knew how much I wanted Marx into Smash until Star Allies

but now i need my demon grape

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Not gonna lie, I'm kinda torn between him and Galacta Knight. I feel Marx is more unique, likely to have a unique and likely complex moveset, but Galacta Knight does seem like a choice they'd make if they needed a popular clone (like they did with Dark Pit and Lucina). I do believe Bandana Dee is more likely, which is unfortunate, but I do hope either Galacta Knight, or Marx would make it in.

 

[AustarusIV]

I love how Star Allies basically put Marx back on the chart for a lot of people, including myself. He’s pretty much my ideal Kirby newcomer at this point, being the one that will generate the most hype out of me.

 

[Professor Lexicovermis]

So who here has been playing as Marx in the Ultimate Choice and Guest Star?

What's you best scores in the Ultimate Choice? What team(s) did you use?

I finished Soul Melter in 15:05 with 4 Marxes!

 

[MrElectroG64]

I finished Soul Melter in 15:05 with 4 Marxes!

lol that's awesome! I've actually yet to even play the ultimate choice on soul melter yet, but I'm definitely going to try and do it with one Marx only as my first try. Wish me luck!

 

[Dig Dug]

I actually was gonna hold off on buying Star Allies for awhile since I already have a big backlog of games to finish, but when they revealed my boy I caved and bought it immediately. My one regret is just how badly it made me want Marx in Smash. I don't have high hopes, but oh well. Sign me up.

So who here has been playing as Marx in the Ultimate Choice and Guest Star?

What's you best scores in the Ultimate Choice? What team(s) did you use?

I got 19:33 with solo Marx. He's busted, I love it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'll have to check my record but I beat Soul Melter with Bluster Marx despite nearly dying because I forgot to eat the last tomato left

 

[Zeox]

I am between Dark Matter swordman and Marx, love both, would love to see both in smash, they have been in recent kirby games (dark matter swordman in planet robobot and marx obviously in star allies) both are villains of classic kirby games, and smash really needs more villains.
I want them much more than bandana dee, i don't get why so much people want him in the game when there are other kirby characters that at least I find more interesting.

 

[AstroHamsta]

Ever since the Dream Friends were announced, I wanted to belive in this reality.

Sign me up.

 

[Montblanc Noland]

I support Marx 100%. As much as I love Bandana Dee, I'd take Marx over him.

Or I'd take Chef Kawasaki.

 

[Kevandre]

I'd be for it. I really liked Marx in Star Allies. And all the other newcomer DLC, but still. I don't know if I want a giant hamster or Arlo's disembodied head in Smash Bros so Marx it is lol

 

[Zeox]

I made Marx bigger.

 

[MrElectroG64]

I made Marx bigger.

My god... now you've made him TOO big! How will he ever be able to fight against poor (little) Kirby?

 

[Zeox]

My god... now you've made him TOO big! How will he ever be able to fight against poor (little) Kirby?

Just wait until is revealed that Marx killed Kirby's parents and is the leader of the space pirates with Zero and Nightmare

 

[MrElectroG64]

Just wait until is revealed that Marx killed Kirby's parents and is the leader of the space pirates with Zero and Nightmare

If it means making Marx the villain of a kirby game, then...

 

[Starcutter]

Even though Marx isn't my preferrred Kirby villain, I do think he's got the best final boss theme. I think I have a thing for weird time signatures.

 

[Dig Dug]

Even though Marx isn't my preferrred Kirby villain, I do think he's got the best final boss theme. I think I have a thing for weird time signatures.

Love Marx's theme, but 02's theme will always edge out for me, personally. I really hope they bring back both of them for Smash 5, or better yet give them new remixes altogether. Especially for 02. I don't hate it or anything and I get what they were trying to do with it, but it never quite hit the right notes for me. I thought Marx's remix was pretty spot on, though.

 

[MrElectroG64]

I thought Marx's remix was pretty spot on, though.

god, I forgot just how good it was...

 

[Luminario]

Finally got around to finishing off the moveset for this little cutie that's been lying on my desktop for weeks on end.

Spoiler: Moveset~

Marx's double jump allows him to fly freely for a couple of seconds. Airdodging while in flight has him keep up the current directions momentum for the dodge before falling regularly. Attacking also has him continue the momentum for a second before he starts falling.

Jab: Simple whack with the twin tails of his hat, one after the other. 2 hits.
Ftilt: A sweeping kick forwards, just like Kirby's ftilt.
Utilt: Swings the tails of his hat around for 2 hits upwards.
Dtilt: Kirby Dtilt.
Dash: Rush. performs the dash forwards from his boss battle.

Fsmash: Marx shoots a smaller version of his laser attack after a small startup. Hits around 5 times for the full attack. Good at killing and Corrin Fsmash range, but easy to see coming and heavy endlag, though it does push him backwards even at the ledge, so using it there facing away from the ledge cuts out the endlag.
Usmash: Shadow Uppercut. Marx vanishes into a shadow on the ground before shooting upwards out of it hard. Invincible for the split second while in the shadow.
Dsmash: Marx materializes his wings and shoots out a barrage of rainbow hexagons each side for multihit damage, before splitting into his pink and blue orb form for a second to knock opponents away.

Nair: Turns so that the top of his head is facing the camera and spins with his wings extended.
Fair: Marx flips forwards, hitting opponents with his hat tails, then with his feet. 2 hits.
Bair: Turns with his heels facing backwards and criss crosses his feet twice. 2 hits.
Uair: Twitls his hat's twin tails around twice. 2 hits.
Dair: Marx Flip Ultima. Marx shoots straight down, knocking opponents away. When he hits the ground he creates a small shockwave and a windbox on either side.

Grab: Marx attempts to grab the opponent with his wing's claw.
Pummel: Whacks the opponent with his hat.
Fthrow: Prank Kick. Marx throw the opponent under him and performs his Prank Kink animation, complete with kicking the opponent away. Good kill throw at the edge.
Bthrow: Warps behind the opponent then performs Rush at their back.
Uthrow: Shadow Uppercut below the opponent.
Dthrow: Shoots a small seed underneath the opponent that then grows into a smaller version of the thorn column attack, blasting the opponent and anyone who touches the thorns away.

B: Black Hole. Marx splits in two, revealing a black hole that absorbs all projectiles and items in a wide radius, regardless of if they're from friend or foe. The absorbed projectiles are used in Side B.

Side B:Thunder Arrows. Marx recycles the projectiles absorbed with Black Hole into the Thunder Arrows. The amount of arrows shot out depends on how many projectiles were absorbed and how powerful they were. Maximum of 9 arrows can be stored. Not good at killing, but great at racking up serious damage when several arrows land.

Up B: Multi-Warp. Marx uses his warping skills from his boss fight to warp 3 times. Always warps the same distance each time, even when directed into the ground, so no bluff warp like other teleport characters. Has a weak hitbox on each re-appearance and at certain % the warps can combo into each other.

Down B: Blast Ball. Changes depending on used in the air or on the ground. Only 1 ball at a time.
In the air, this is simply the bomb drop attack with a small explosion when it hits something. Can be hit back just like WFT's Header. Can also only be used once in the air.
On the ground, Marx brings out a ball to stand on and roll around. Pressing B while on the ball has Marx kick it in a wide arc, meaning it's capable of missing smaller targets at a certain range. Jumping off of the ball lets Marx attack it similarly to WFT's Header ball, allowing for more angles. Marx can also jump off the ball and absorb it using B, allowing him food for the Thunder Arrows if the opponent doesn't use projectiles.

Final Smash: Marx Soul Beam. Marx throws out the four cutters. If any opponent gets hit by the cutters on their path then Marx splits apart and sucks the opponent touched and anyone in range into a black hole. Transported to an area that looks similar to Marx's boss fight area, Marx unlocks his Soul form and blasts the opponents with the full power of his laser.

 

[Starcutter]

I found a pretty great Marx related video just now, I feel like you guys would like it.

(Volume Warning)

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Updated my wishlist with a Marx headshot.

Spoiler

 

[TCT~Phantom]

It is Marx's day in RTC. Come rate him!

Also let the workers of the world rise.

 

[MrElectroG64]

Updated my wishlist with a Marx headshot.

Spoiler

View attachment 141718

beautiful. looks great! you wouldn't be willing to do requests for an image similar to that... would you? heh...