Marth Q&A Thread (To replace new thread spam)

[FlashG]

What exploitable habits do you look for in a player, and what are some common habits shared among many players?

 

[JNova]

If this is adressed to me, I'm afraid to say that this question is way to general for me to answer.
Do you want to know more about the Falco vs Marth MU or is about something else?
Do you want to know about habits in Neutral Game, DI, Edgeguard, Shield Pressure?
Or do you just don't care and just want to learn anything random?

 

[FlashG]

@ JNova Not specifically addressed to anyone in particular. You are certainly right that the question is broad, maybe even to a fault, and I wouldn't expect someone to attempt to answer it fully. Different people pick up on different habits, I was hoping to get a few answers just to see how people think.

 

[Quig]

Teching is definitely one of the key things to pick up on. If you can start to get a good read on where the other player techs in certain situations you can rack up serious damage a lot more quickly.

Another question I have is how to properly punish spot dodging as Marth. I often find myself running into this problem when I'm tech chasing with grabs and the opponent spot dodges and punishes. There are many occasions where I know they are going to spot dodge but I don't know the best way to punish. I can sometimes manage to just delay my grab but this gets beat out if my timing isn't good spot on.

 

[JNova]

Teching is definitely one of the key things to pick up on. If you can start to get a good read on where the other player techs in certain situations you can rack up serious damage a lot more quickly.

Another question I have is how to properly punish spot dodging as Marth. I often find myself running into this problem when I'm tech chasing with grabs and the opponent spot dodges and punishes. There are many occasions where I know they are going to spot dodge but I don't know the best way to punish. I can sometimes manage to just delay my grab but this gets beat out if my timing isn't good spot on.

In my experience you have 2 Options:

First, waiting. Either you walk towards the tech and wait for their reaction (jump, shield, spotdodge,...) and then punish, or you DD near them and wait for their reaction

Second, aerial. The most useful aerial for me for that is n-air, because it covers so much range and stands long enough out to cover the spot dodge if timed correctly (it kills really good aswell).
This is reeeeeally good, if people spot dodge like a billion of times to totally mess you up.
It's kinda funny, that characters with a fast spot dodge (Sheik, Spacies) want to spot dodge your grab because they can easily punish you BUT because their spot dodge is so fast, it's more vulnerable to moves that stand out really long

 

[ssknight7]

Quick question about double fair. I was looking for tips on how to SH double fair and it seems like most people do the first fair with A and the second fair with c-stick. Is there any advantage to doing it this way?

I ask because I find it easier to do both fairs with the A button. I wanted to know if I'm about to practice myself into a bad habit by not using the c-stick.

 

[KingKirb]

I'm new to playing marth. I used to play captain falcon.


In the neutral game, how am I supposed to down tilt people if I'm dash dancing? I know its a nooby question. Should I not dash dance very much, and just wavedash back + downtilt instead?

 

[heyitshoward]

you can wd dtilt or crouch cancel your dash then dtilt

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

Techs for sure are something you can pick up on, if you can't get a read just go for whatever covers the most options (

Quick question about double fair. I was looking for tips on how to SH double fair and it seems like most people do the first fair with A and the second fair with c-stick. Is there any advantage to doing it this way?

I ask because I find it easier to do both fairs with the A button. I wanted to know if I'm about to practice myself into a bad habit by not using the c-stick.

This is literally the first question that was asked in this thread, look at the first page.

I'm new to playing marth. I used to play captain falcon.


In the neutral game, how am I supposed to down tilt people if I'm dash dancing? I know its a nooby question. Should I not dash dance very much, and just wavedash back + downtilt instead?

Yeah, at close range you have to wd into the dtilt, as Marth can't crouch from his dash startup animation (if you can instantly turn around, you can't crouch). Because of the additional lag from the wd, I don't tend to use wd dtilt very often, however if there's a decent gap between you and your opponent then a dash cancelled dtilt usually works well.

What exploitable habits do you look for in a player, and what are some common habits shared among many players?

Always shielding/spot-dodging after certain movements (shffls, ledge getups, missed grabs), doing the same ledge getup option, doing a set amount of ledgestalls before getting up, performing the same approaches, teching in the same directions, DIing moves the same way every time, punishing oos... I'm just gonna stop myself right there, because almost every habit is exploitable in this game, haha. I feel that much of melee becomes setting up and then breaking expectations with your habits.

 

[heyitshoward]

ooh also many players will tech the same way they DI

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

I wrote a guide to writing guides because looking at this forum, it seems all the cool marths nowadays are submitting guides.

1. How to write Melee guides: A guide.
2. 
   
3. Hey ppl so you want to write a guide eh? well just follow my adcive and you'll be a master guider in no time.
4. 
   
5. First of all there's 2 types of formatting. either the whole guide should be a big chunk of text or it should be a list. You can if you make it a list make sure that you don't make headers or use bullet points just write every thought that occurs to you on a separate line. if you "properly" divide your guide into sectoins it will encourage the reader to skip to the parts of the guide he wants to read and he'll miss the rest of your guide. Also don't proofread. a guide is essentially one big text message. Sentence fragments are really good and don't worry about a good flow. Don't erer use the basckpace key ;your time is too valueable for that. remember that grammar and spelling is for nerds! have you ever seen one of mango's posts fromwhen he becaume the best player in the world? dude couldn't spell to save his life. that's the key to being good. also he was good when he was like 15. that means the younger you are the better you are at the game. if you're above 16 or you've played the game for over 1 year you're probably too old ot be wirting guides. the melee community has so many knowledgeable people in it who've played the game for so long that the most valuable thing for them is to hear the opinions of someone who started the game a month ago, to let them see the game again through fresh eyes without bias. Make sure your observations aare as shallow as possible and . Yu should get all your information from match commentary and matches from 2006. remember ken is the king of smash and in his prime he would beat everyone nowadays. be sure to reference slang a lot in your guide so that people know you're "with it" . Instead of saying "fast fall to the ledge" say ramen noodles, call falco's forward air the flutterhush, etc. if people don't know what those words mean they should go back to brawl LOL. For matchups, remember that the best judge of how tough a matchup is is how well you do against your friends. Maybe the pros say peach vs ice climbers is really good for peach but there's this guy in my middle school who beats me with ice climbers all the tiem so i think peach really struggles with them. For combos, don't list boring, guaranteed combos that you've seen people execute. In fact, don't worry about "true" combos at all. The best combos are strings of strong attacks, like "fsmash to missed tech punish fsmash".
6. 
   
7. End with a one-sentence conclusoin

 

[Guluheend]

I wrote a guide to writing guides because looking at this forum, it seems all the cool marths nowadays are submitting guides.

...

Wow, impressively funny. And very informative

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

Wow, impressively funny. And very informative

I'm looking forward to your Samus guide then

 

[townes]

I just got the 20XX v 3.0 hack pack. It's amazing and i've played on it lots. I was wondering if anybody has some helpful things to use it for that I haven't tried yet. I am very willing to practice alone, and I do everyday unless I'm smashing with the homies. I already do these things with it:
-falco SH lasers to PS, WD OOS, fair OOS, and seeing how long the stun lasts
-practicing on an opponent with infinite shield up to practice pressure and L cancels
-L cancels flash red
-rolling forces death
-chaingrabbing and comboing spacies with random DI
-tech chasing falcon with random tech options
-waiting turns your character green to make you move constantly
-checking out hurtboxes from ledge invincibility

Despite all of these amazing features, I can't help but feel there's more I can do with this. Anyone else do any marth stuff with the hack pack?

 

[KingKirb]

How to set up ken combos?

 

[JNova]

How to set up ken combos?

learn from the master himself lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFCQIAnYUMM

 

[AirFair]

How do I break bad habits I form with marth? (full hop aerials when short hop aerials would be safer/more effecient?)
I'm practicing tech and combos but sometimes I do these things when I don't want to, even when I know I can shffl or short hop.

 

[dyl0n]

Anybody have some insight on chain forward throws on Spacies? I stumbled upon them while messing around in PM then saw it done by M2k a few times in some old videos. I've tried practicing them on CPUs but I can't get em for the life of me.

How do I break bad habits I form with marth? (full hop aerials when short hop aerials would be safer/more effecient?)
I'm practicing tech and combos but sometimes I do these things when I don't want to, even when I know I can shffl or short hop.

This is a very broad question. Is that the only bad habit you have or are there others? If its just a matter of you flubbing the short hops, you just gotta practice short hopping til you can do it at will, its all muscle memory. Anything more than that you just need to consciously remind yourself not to commit whatever bad habit you've become adjusted to and implement something thats beneficial instead. It all goes back to your fundamental tech skill and knowing your options. Personally, I practice my fundamentals once a week using the 1 player glitch on fixed camera mode for hours at a time. Your fundamentals can always use improvement even if you think you're rock solid on them, believe me on that.

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

How do I break bad habits I form with marth? (full hop aerials when short hop aerials would be safer/more effecient?)
I'm practicing tech and combos but sometimes I do these things when I don't want to, even when I know I can shffl or short hop.

Hmm full hop aerials generally suck, if it's something you do intentionally I think in time you'll stop doing them just because they don't work well, like some sort of Darwinian metagame thing. I do those a lot but it's because my tech skill is pathetic. When playing, try to occasionally go a whole game where you just devote yourself to doing/not doing one thing. Back in my Brawl days as a young lad I had a bad habit of rolling too much, so I played against bots for 2 days where I did not allow myself to shield at all, and it ended up cutting my rolling by like 75%. Come to think of it, I should try forcing myself to approach with dtilt every time. This of course works best against opponents you'll still be able to beat even if you handicap yourself (bots, noob friends, half the people in your pool ; ), if you get destroyed while practicing something it'll make you more adverse to doing it in the future I'd guess.

Anybody have some insight on chain forward throws on Spacies? I stumbled upon them while messing around in PM then saw it done by M2k a few times in some old videos. I've tried practicing them on CPUs but I can't get em for the life of me.

This is pretty much a chain throw on every character I'm pretty sure, it's kind of situational. For starters, it only works if you're throwing the character below something like 6 or 7% (2 guaranteed regrabs at 0%). I think if fastfallers DI down and away they can spotdodge? The timing is really tight either way, maybe spacies have a 1 frame window to spotdodge, maybe Marth has a 1 frame advantage to grab; either way with human error the regrab is viable IMO. It works the rest of the cast but some floaties can DI up to avoid it I think (if they do this then a quick fair should get them so it's no real loss). You can get a lot more grabs on floatier characters if they DI down and in, but they'd have to be clueless for that. Idk how you can't get the timing, it's pretty easy IMO, but then again I do it so much that it's pretty automatic by now. You'll get the hang of it.

I just got the 20XX v 3.0 hack pack. It's amazing and i've played on it lots. I was wondering if anybody has some helpful things to use it for that I haven't tried yet. I am very willing to practice alone, and I do everyday unless I'm smashing with the homies. I already do these things with it:
-falco SH lasers to PS, WD OOS, fair OOS, and seeing how long the stun lasts
-practicing on an opponent with infinite shield up to practice pressure and L cancels
-L cancels flash red
-rolling forces death
-chaingrabbing and comboing spacies with random DI
-tech chasing falcon with random tech options
-waiting turns your character green to make you move constantly
-checking out hurtboxes from ledge invincibility

Despite all of these amazing features, I can't help but feel there's more I can do with this. Anyone else do any marth stuff with the hack pack?

You already do wayyyyyyy more with it than I do! Then again dolphin crashes when you try half the stuff it offers.

 

[dyl0n]

This is pretty much a chain throw on every character I'm pretty sure, it's kind of situational. For starters, it only works if you're throwing the character below something like 6 or 7% (2 guaranteed regrabs at 0%). I think if fastfallers DI down and away they can spotdodge? The timing is really tight either way, maybe spacies have a 1 frame window to spotdodge, maybe Marth has a 1 frame advantage to grab; either way with human error the regrab is viable IMO. It works the rest of the cast but some floaties can DI up to avoid it I think (if they do this then a quick fair should get them so it's no real loss). You can get a lot more grabs on floatier characters if they DI down and in, but they'd have to be clueless for that. Idk how you can't get the timing, it's pretty easy IMO, but then again I do it so much that it's pretty automatic by now. You'll get the hang of it.

Yea I knew about doing them on floaties, its much easier to do, but spacies is a different story. The video I saw, M2K did it on a Falco from mid stage in the neutral game and took him all the way to the ledge forcing an edgeguard. I abuse the F-throw offstage into D-tilt on spacies, so if I could implement the chain grab into my neutral in addition to that, it would improve my game immensely.

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

Yea I knew about doing them on floaties, its much easier to do, but spacies is a different story. The video I saw, M2K did it on a Falco from mid stage in the neutral game and took him all the way to the ledge forcing an edgeguard. I abuse the F-throw offstage into D-tilt on spacies, so if I could implement the chain grab into my neutral in addition to that, it would improve my game immensely.

Hmm well I need to see a clip of that happening, I was not aware that was doable.

 

[dyl0n]

Hmm well I need to see a clip of that happening, I was not aware that was doable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wObPaSvjZE8 First done around 0:42, 10:29, and 13:18.

I must have remembered incorrectly since he only did 3 throws, but nonetheless, they went from midstage to the ledge. I also didn't know about the percents when I first watched it until now, so thanks for your insight man.

 

[FlashG]

That chainthrow only works at really low percents. Once they get past 10% or so they fall on the ground and have to tech and it's only possible when they're standing after the throw

 

[AirFair]

I thought you could only chaingrab spacies like twice before they can spotdodge/roll out of it. It can still work if they don't tech so it's just on how fast you can go, at least that's what I think.

 

[AirFair]

Hey, I was wondering about whether I should full jump with the control stick or the x button. I have been using the control stick up till now and am pretty comfortable with it. I have heard that using the x or y button to jump is better so I was wondering if that meant that I need to change how I play. Is it better for Marth and general play or can I just keep doing my thing?

 

[FlashG]

If you use the x or y button to full jump and short hop you will be able to jump in a given direction easier and generally have more control over your character. If I was you I would pick x or y to do all my jumps with. However, it is just preference, and if you're perfectly comfortable jumping that way and you don't think it hinders your gameplay then it's perfectly fine to stick with it. It's all up to you.

 

[airtight_hag]

I have a friend who's just learning melee, and he likes Marth, and he's getting decent with him, but I was just spectating a match and noticed that the dude is CONSTANTLY using the horizontal smash. Like dude's using that attack more than a lot of Roy players I know. I have tried pointing it out to him, but I think a better way to get him to mix it up some would be just start punishing it a lot. Any ideas on how? My two main characters are Marth and Dr. Mario. Marth can obviously parry it, but with Doc it's a bit tougher. I can use the cape, but I'm not often in range for anything too strong after that happens. My bread and butter combo is cape -> horizontal smash, but he's getting smart enough to not let me get in close enough to do that. Other ideas?

 

[FlashG]

Bait out the Fsmash and grab him. Fsmash has a ton of lag. You can also shield it and wavedash out of shield into grab.

 

[airtight_hag]

I'm fairly new to taking Smash seriously, so I'm terrible at wavedashing, but I like this idea a lot. A lot of the dudes I play with almost never grab, and so they don't really think about how to avoid it.

 

[AirFair]

If you use the x or y button to full jump and short hop you will be able to jump in a given direction easier and generally have more control over your character. If I was you I would pick x or y to do all my jumps with. However, it is just preference, and if you're perfectly comfortable jumping that way and you don't think it hinders your gameplay then it's perfectly fine to stick with it. It's all up to you.

Coming back to this answer, just wondering, is it hard to do a JC grab with the x y button for your jump?

 

[FlashG]

Coming back to this answer, just wondering, is it hard to do a JC grab with the x y button for your jump?

It's super easy to do a JC grab with x or y. When I first learned about JC grabs I probably practiced for 2 minutes before I had 95% consistency with them. JC grabbing with the control stick is probably pretty hard, so If you can do it that way then there is no doubt in my mind you pick it up with x or y in no time.

 

[AirFair]

It's super easy to do a JC grab with x or y. When I first learned about JC grabs I probably practiced for 2 minutes before I had 95% consistency with them. JC grabbing with the control stick is probably pretty hard, so If you can do it that way then there is no doubt in my mind you pick it up with x or y in no time.

Thanks Flash! I guess I will start jumping with X next time I practice. I think the only trouble i will have is ledgehopping lol

 

[Acorn]

So I'm just playing around with some Marth movement stuff (he's pretty much the inverse of Falco in that regard) and I've noticed that sometimes when I waveland off of a platform, when I land on the ground I'm knocked down. I've only had it happen a few times and I can't seem to reproduce it.

Does anyone know about this or what causes it? I'm using the 20XX pack, but I doubt that makes a difference.

 

[Espi]

So I'm just playing around with some Marth movement stuff (he's pretty much the inverse of Falco in that regard) and I've noticed that sometimes when I waveland off of a platform, when I land on the ground I'm knocked down. I've only had it happen a few times and I can't seem to reproduce it.

Does anyone know about this or what causes it? I'm using the 20XX pack, but I doubt that makes a difference.

It's when you shield and fall off a platform. It's called dropzone.

 

[Acorn]

It's when you shield and fall off a platform. It's called dropzone.

Yeah that's it. Thanks. He's just so slippery.

 

[AirFair]

yea but you gotta love that wavedash.

 

[AirFair]

Hey so I am asking this to wrap up a series of questions I had.
I was just practicing my movement today with X for all of my jump inputs (apart from Y to wavedash) and wanted to ask a question about aerials.

More specifically, what is the fastest or most effecient way to throw them out when shffling with x jump and stuff like that, whether c sticking is better in certain situations. Basically short hop aerials I guess. Thanks.

EDIT: As I practiced I started to understand what suited my playstyle more so instead I ask a different question. How do I move like PPMD? The dashes and wavedashes seem so fluid and I don't really know where to start on that.

 

[Meru]

Dash -> WD -> Dash -> WD, across FD left and right until you can do it without messing up. I think Kadano said somewhere that you are a little bit faster doing this (if you do it perfectly). After practicing this for a while, just kind of move around the stage and experiment with cactus dashing (ctrl f "cactus" on the google doc)/ WD->dash movement tricks. Also, practicing changing up your dash dance speed is very important, it's not good enough to just be able to do it as fast or as slow as possible - you want to be able to do it at all speeds. If you can find somebody willing, practice long WD in place, and have them use fox/falco's dash attacks against you at different points in your dash dance, to practice avoiding their attack and reacting - this'll help your reactions in DD and force you to change up ur DD lengths. One thing that I've found a lot of people don't practice nearly enough (and for the most part, not at all) is practicing the different WD lengths as well. Waveland->FF wave*land around battle field to get that down, try to never miss ledgedashes. Also, practice run->crouch->dtilt and try to do it as fast as possible. And practice dashing out of dtilt so you can do it as fast as possible.

 

[AirFair]

Thanks! It's a great help.

 

[AirFair]

What are some good ken combo setups on spacies?
Any tips on a good/fast ledgedash? I tend to SD.
What are some good methods for working on tippers? specifically the fair, as it can be hard to postion mid approach for a noob like myself.