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Marth Q&A Thread (To replace new thread spam)

Do you think this is a good idea?


  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .

Spaghetti Sammy

Smash Journeyman
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Alrighty, Through some research, I found that Puff can be good against Marf.
I always wanted to pick up Puff, so she'll make a pretty good pocket main.
(Pocket main is a term right? Used to describe a main you use purely for one matchup)
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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Alrighty, Through some research, I found that Puff can be good against Marf.
I always wanted to pick up Puff, so she'll make a pretty good pocket main.
(Pocket main is a term right? Used to describe a main you use purely for one matchup)
I'd say Falcon and Sheik are more troublesome for Marth
 

QuantumKiller

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Okay this is going to be a really obscure question but does anyone that can do TAS inputs on dolphin know if this movement can go across FD in one go?

Ledge ->
Waveland ->
Moonwalk ->
SH Forward Air ->
Waveland ->
Grab other ledge
I can confirm it's possible, because I just did it tonight after like a million trys. Perfect moonwalks and wavelands :/
 
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Will-O-Wisp

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
144
Anybody got tips for playing against Yoshi, Samus, or Luigi? I have so much trouble in all facets of the game when it comes to these characters; neutral, punish, and recovery. I usually default to dtilt/fair spacing into grabs, but nothing much comes from it.
 
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A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
Anybody got tips for playing against Yoshi, Samus, or Luigi? I have so much trouble in all facets of the game when it comes to these characters; neutral, punish, and recovery. I usually default to dtilt/fair spacing into grabs, but nothing much comes from it.
Samus is a pretty straightforward matchup for Marth. In neutral she's going to try to space you out with wavedashes, similar to how a Sheik player would but without the crazy grab option. Samus favors her F-tilt for spacing. You can beat this with grab, D-tilt, or a F-air. If you do get a grab, F-throw is your best bet as it has the least lag. I find juggling Samus to be a bit of a chore, so I only use U-throw as a mix-up. After an F-throw, if they don't DI correctly, you can connect with a dash attack or even a pivot F-smash if the circumstances are just right. Another move you'll encounter often is her dash attack, which is easily to bait with a SHFF waveland backwards. If you think she'll dash attack the back end of your dash dance you can dash away and do a pivot F-smash to make her instantly regret this. Her grab is pretty bad, but can catch you offguard if you make the mistake of staying in shield for too long. Just remember to wavedash out of your shield often enough and it shouldn't be an issue. If you do get grabbed, DI up and away is the best choice I believe (someone with more experience can correct me if I'm wrong.) Her D-throw can combo into her dash attack if you don't DI up, and you can eat a U-tilt or N-air if you don't DI away.

Platforms benefit her pretty well, aiding her missiles while giving her a space to threaten you with N-air and B-air. If you're on a platform above her, it's fairly probable that she'll do a rising N-air, but if you're on the corner she can also get you with a B-air. Don't try to spotdodge the N-air, instead just shield or if you're in knockdown roll behind her back. Remember you can use your sword to destroy missiles and low power charge shots. If you're in mid-range and you see Samus start her missile animation, just dash attack. It will pop her up toward you and give you an opportunity to start an aerial combo. Dash attack is also very good for catching her landing if she's attempting to retreat and reset to neutral from the air. At ~30 - 45% there's a combo you can do that can kill her pretty early. SHFFL Center hit F-air -> SHFFL N-air -> Tipper F-air -> D-air spike. If the spike doesn't quite do it, pursue with a reverse up-b to threaten her jump and grab the ledge. This combo is powerful but it isn't something you should lean on. Another way to kill confirm at higher percents (~100%) is to SHFFL Center hit F-air, dash into a wavedash and go straight into an F-smash. Tipper is highly likely here and you can walk out of the wavedash to adjust your spacing if you need to. Floaty killer (Forward B -> U-tilt) works in the even higher ranges when Marth begins to struggle to find a killing move.

Samus' recovery can be annoying but Marth can easily respond to it if you're patient. While she's bomb jumping, you can jump out and hit her with neutral B, but be careful not to drop too low. If you miss, that's okay. Just go for the ledge and screw up her grapple. If she's above the stage and bomb jumping, try to tag her with a N-air or D-air spike.

There's probably more to learn, but it's late and this is all I can come up with at the moment. If you more specific matchup questions I can do my best to answer. Good luck!
 
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FE_Hector

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@ A_Reverie A_Reverie Just a suggestion, instead of doing an "empty short hop fast falled into a wavedash backward", wouldn't it be a way better, faster option to SHFF waveland back?
 

A_Reverie

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@ A_Reverie A_Reverie Just a suggestion, instead of doing an "empty short hop fast falled into a wavedash backward", wouldn't it be a way better, faster option to SHFF waveland back?
I think this is what I meant. It was late when I posted so I must have worded it in a silly way.
 

Will-O-Wisp

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Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna try and slowly incorporate some of that stuff in. Another quick question: How useful is shield stopping/shield pivoting in the spacie matchup? I read somewhere that pivot nairs/fairs were good as bait tools, so maybe shield pivot into aerial could be useful.
 

A_Reverie

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Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna try and slowly incorporate some of that stuff in. Another quick question: How useful is shield stopping/shield pivoting in the spacie matchup? I read somewhere that pivot nairs/fairs were good as bait tools, so maybe shield pivot into aerial could be useful.
Using shield stop to create F-air walls is good, but don't overuse it. A stationary F-air can be dashed in on and punished before the lower hitbox comes out (F-air covers below and in front of Marth much later than above or in front.) Retreating double F-air or SHFFL F-air is much more defensive. Use this when you think Fox is going to jump in on you. You can go for D-tilt or grab as a followup, or a F-air combo if percent is high enough.
 
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FE_Hector

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Using shield stop to create F-air walls is good, but don't overuse it. A stationary F-air can be dashed in on and punished before the lower hitbox comes out (F-air covers below and in front of Marth much later than above or in front.) Retreating double F-air or SHFFL F-air is much more defensive. Use this when you think Fox is going to jump in on you. You can go for D-tilt or grab as a followup, or a F-air combo if percent is high enough.
Also if you're still in the neutral and you think Fox is gonna jump in on you, if you haven't committed to anything, WD or DD back grab (pivot for DD), is generally a pretty good option. That's what let me win my first tourney set against a Fox main :D
 

A_Reverie

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Also if you're still in the neutral and you think Fox is gonna jump in on you, if you haven't committed to anything, WD or DD back grab (pivot for DD), is generally a pretty good option. That's what let me win my first tourney set against a Fox main :D
Congrats man!

Another option for if you have a really good read on your opponent and KNOW they're going to rush in on you, dash back pivot F-smash is ridiculous. This is only for those ballsy "I have your number" plays though.
 

DeadPigeon

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Also if you're still in the neutral and you think Fox is gonna jump in on you, if you haven't committed to anything, WD or DD back grab (pivot for DD), is generally a pretty good option. That's what let me win my first tourney set against a Fox main :D
SS sh fair seems better than WD back if you have a read on/react to fox jumping in (with nair say) because it covers most of fox's nair spacings. WD back looses if the fox predicts your retreat and goes for a deep nair (ie they'll place their nair at the far end of your dd). Not to say WD back is bad; it covers some of fox's aerials and most of fox grounded attacks, and thus can cover some mixups that fair can't. For example, fair looses to run in upsmash, but WD back beats it.
 

FE_Hector

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SS sh fair seems better than WD back if you have a read on/react to fox jumping in (with nair say) because it covers most of fox's nair spacings. WD back looses if the fox predicts your retreat and goes for a deep nair (ie they'll place their nair at the far end of your dd). Not to say WD back is bad; it covers some of fox's aerials and most of fox grounded attacks, and thus can cover some mixups that fair can't. For example, fair looses to run in upsmash, but WD back beats it.
The thing was, I had a read on him. I KNEW that he was going to try to drillshine usmash me, so I WDd out of the way, grabbed him as soon as he landed, and 0-deathed him. I agree that there are sometimes other options, but I was simply providing one.
 

DeadPigeon

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The thing was, I had a read on him. I KNEW that he was going to try to drillshine usmash me, so I WDd out of the way, grabbed him as soon as he landed, and 0-deathed him. I agree that there are sometimes other options, but I was simply providing one.
Yep, there are always options, that's the beauty of melee :)
It still seems like the fox could have daired deep into your DD to beat WD back if he had a read/you were abusing it. Regardless, using WD or DD to evade and punish your opponent is really good.
 

jihaeng29

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When you need to go across the stage to follow up on a hit, is it faster to foxtrot, or dash-WD-dash or dash-run?
 

FE_Hector

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I'm pretty sure that wavesurfing is only a really important technique for Falco. Far as I know, running across the stage is his fastest option. Depending on what you want to do to follow up, you may want to end your run animation by crouching, but if you've gotta end the run animation, WD is generally a better option because it lets you re-enter your DD at will.
 

DeadPigeon

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When you need to go across the stage to follow up on a hit, is it faster to foxtrot, or dash-WD-dash or dash-run?
Dash->WD->WD etc is the fastest option, but not by much

How much faster can Marth go across FD with Dash Wavedashes than frame perfect Wavedashes (without the dash) or Running?
I counted the frames (again) and it seems that DWD are only perfect for initiating the movement. Here are the raw values for moving from one side of FD to the other, counting from the first input frame to the last grounded frame:

Dash → Run: 97 frames
DWD → DWD → DWD … : 96 frames
DWD → WD → WD … : 94 frames

Imho, running, dashing and (especially) dash-dancing with Marth is overrated in comparison to wavedashing. Wavedashing can be abused quite a lot more than it is done in the current metagame.
 

FE_Hector

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TL;DR, DWD into repeated WD is the fastest, but not that needed unless 3 frames are that important to you.
 

-ACE-

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"Wavedashing can be abused quite a lot more than it is done in the current metagame."

^^ truth. Marth's wd is sooooo good.
 

Eonn

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Dumb question, where are some good guides to Marth? I didn't see any kind of thread/compendium with links to stuff.

EDIT: I'm blind. Sorry.
 
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DV8R001

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Dumb question, where are some good guides to Marth? I didn't see any kind of thread/compendium with links to stuff.

EDIT: I'm blind. Sorry.
Here's something I use in combination with the guides, if it helps: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrllkUvUM63vbU2rezlZYkAI1tAzLpnzr
Just For TIps by Nassef Ameen: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrllkUvUM63vbU2rezlZYkAI1tAzLpnzr
Tech Lessons #PewPewUniversity by PewPewU (Kevin Toy) - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0vnsPOq4FD37x4d_yhRfS9yrziqCWGQ4
 
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Joaco

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What are Marth's best ways to get up from the ledge?
 

FE_Hector

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Ledgehop fair, uair, or nair are all good options, as is ledgedash grab. If you've got the space, I'd just do a ledgejump and work with whatever space you have. Pretty situational, but ledgedashes or ledgehop fair, uair, and nair are your 4 good options.
 

Hunybear

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I don't know where to ask this so ill bring this thread back. Is there a Marth R&D (research and development) Facebook group or just a Marth social or something?
 
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FE_Hector

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I'm relatively sure there's a Marth R&D FB group. Just try a few different searches and you should be able to find it. It was in my suggested groups for a while.
 

Kaoak

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How often and when should I use down tilt as Marth, especially in the neutral game. To specify, I find that I never have time to use it because I am always dash dancing against characters like Fox and Sheik, and in order to have room or time to downtilt I need to have enough space to get into a run animation or a dash->wavedash, which is hard to get against fast characters with projectiles, and to get it I basically forfeit my entire stage. Against characters like Falcon who I find are always jumping, if I downtilt they just jump over it and I take a knee to the face.

I've heard people say that dtilt is Marth's best move so I figure I must be missing something. I just never have room to downtilt and if I do I feel like a forward air (against frequently airborn opponents) or a grab (against grounded opponents) just does its job better, requires less spacing and has greater reward with less risk so there has to be something I am doing wrong here.
 

FE_Hector

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How often and when should I use down tilt as Marth, especially in the neutral game. To specify, I find that I never have time to use it because I am always dash dancing against characters like Fox and Sheik, and in order to have room or time to downtilt I need to have enough space to get into a run animation or a dash->wavedash, which is hard to get against fast characters with projectiles, and to get it I basically forfeit my entire stage. Against characters like Falcon who I find are always jumping, if I downtilt they just jump over it and I take a knee to the face.

I've heard people say that dtilt is Marth's best move so I figure I must be missing something. I just never have room to downtilt and if I do I feel like a forward air (against frequently airborn opponents) or a grab (against grounded opponents) just does its job better, requires less spacing and has greater reward with less risk so there has to be something I am doing wrong here.
When Marth WDs, he's actionable as early as frame 14. Also remember that WD down dtilt is an option. On top of that, know how quickly you're actionable out of dtilt. It's definitely a situational move, but it also gets some interesting followups a lot of the time.
 

Kaoak

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When Marth WDs, he's actionable as early as frame 14. Also remember that WD down dtilt is an option. On top of that, know how quickly you're actionable out of dtilt. It's definitely a situational move, but it also gets some interesting followups a lot of the time.
This isn't anything new to me, I can't space very well on a 21 frame startup move (if done frame perfectly), and most of the time it just gets jumped over, shielded or crouch cancelled and I get nothing off of it and get hard punished, (sheik get 50% off of a grab, fox gets nair -> shine -> grab -> up throw up air).
 

FE_Hector

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This isn't anything new to me, I can't space very well on a 21 frame startup move (if done frame perfectly), and most of the time it just gets jumped over, shielded or crouch cancelled and I get nothing off of it and get hard punished, (sheik get 50% off of a grab, fox gets nair -> shine -> grab -> up throw up air).
That honestly sounds like more of an issue against aggro opponents. Getting in a dtilt vs an opponent that always wants to be in your face is going to be pretty difficult. Try to establish more stage control, etc before going for a dtilt. You've got other options that can be mixed in, too.
 

DeadPigeon

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If they're jumping over the dtilt, then it's doing it's job. Your opponent feels like they can't approach on the ground. Mix in more wd uptilts or fairs
 

TriforceHero666

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How do I recover after doing a dair? I've noticed that there are so many frames of lag that I can't recover easily after using it.
 

The Young Izzy Iz

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Thoughts on subbing in F-tilt for any situation you'd otherwise use F-smash in once the opponent is above 100%~? You don't really need the extra knockback, F-tilt comes out 3 frames faster (6 frames if A-Sticking), has FOURTEEN less frames of ending lag, and it rises from the bottom up making the timing window for hitting any falling enemy more forgiving.

I only ask this because I tend to see a lot of F-smash fishing in the critique thread once the opponent rises above combo percent. There's safer ways to fish for stray-hit kills with Marth, at least IMO. At the very least at that percent its going to force an edgeguard situation.
 
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Ladder

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Thoughts on subbing in F-tilt for any situation you'd otherwise use F-smash in once the opponent is above 100%~? You don't really need the extra knockback, F-tilt comes out 3 frames faster (6 frames if A-Sticking), has FOURTEEN less frames of ending lag, and it rises from the bottom up making the timing window for hitting any falling enemy more forgiving.

I only ask this because I tend to see a lot of F-smash fishing in the critique thread once the opponent rises above combo percent. There's safer ways to fish for stray-hit kills with Marth, at least IMO. At the very least at that percent its going to force an edgeguard situation.
what's a sticking?
 

Uchihadark7

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Thoughts on subbing in F-tilt for any situation you'd otherwise use F-smash in once the opponent is above 100%~? You don't really need the extra knockback, F-tilt comes out 3 frames faster (6 frames if A-Sticking), has FOURTEEN less frames of ending lag, and it rises from the bottom up making the timing window for hitting any falling enemy more forgiving.

I only ask this because I tend to see a lot of F-smash fishing in the critique thread once the opponent rises above combo percent. There's safer ways to fish for stray-hit kills with Marth, at least IMO. At the very least at that percent its going to force an edgeguard situation.
Tipper f-tilt and tipper f-air are both good options at higher percentages.
 
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