Marth Q&A Thread (To replace new thread spam)

[AirFair]

Marth is all about tips bro (puns). Practice movement, and grab followups.

 

[Cringe]

Does anyone know a marth that uses pivoting in matches and uses it efficiently? I have been experimenting and i want to see it in action

 

[Cringe]

Does anyone know a marth that uses pivoting in matches and uses it efficiently? I have been experimenting and i want to see it in action

 

[DerpyDayha]

As far as grab follow ups, you really need to be on point with these imo:
1. Chain throws on spacies: this is the entire matchup pretty much because you'll be trying to make sh nair whiff from fox or powershield laser into grab on falco. You can find specifics elsewhere but know how to get them to 36%, how to pivot grab, when to up tilt, when to up air, and when you can tipper them based on DI.

2. Shiek: You'll want to be crouch canceling dash attack often in this matchup, so knowing throw follow ups can really help even up the punish game (key to winning this matchup). Shiek has a super easy weight + fall speed for comboing, so you can go for up throw to up tilt / up air at early percents and she's not great at coming down so juggling is effective as well.

3. Peach: Same MO as Shiek, but your dash dance shines more against Peach so even more throws. Outside of early percents you'll want to up throw IMO because Peach's options coming down are meh at best so she has to guess right to touch the ground. At early percents you have a DI mixup between forward throw and down throw (correct DI for one option is awful DI for the other). A free tipper can lead to some easy gimmick kills which really are important against a character that relies on the attrition of living as long as Peach does. Also, forward throw to sh tipper fair to combo practice is possible on her.

4. Marth: Probably most important thing in this matchup. Basically from 0 percent both Marth's want to grab each other. At early percents forward throw on Marth is GG (0% - 6% the forward throw to grab combo is either always possible OR super hard to avoid I'm not sure). Up throw is great as well since Marth only has down air to guess with. The whole matchup is just neutral to grab mainly or rarely a fair/dash attack to 0 to death since Marth edgeguards himself to effectively.

5. Puff: You won't grab puff as often in my experience, but it's decent when you do. I mainly go for the cheesy downthrow/forward throw to follow up mix up.

6. Ice Climbers: don't grab them

7. Falcon: I hate falcon. I need to further look into what options grab gives you, but you can go for tech chases mainly from up throw or down throw. At later percents up throw has unavoidable follow ups but I am still in the dark on what exactly works.

Thanks once again. I'll take that into account. Just got the game today, and unlocked Marth right away. I'll be working on some tech skill to start, then after that, this will definitely help.

Any tips on getting used to short hopping as well as dash dancing (especially with me not being used to tap jump)?

Thx!

 

[DerpyDayha]

As far as grab follow ups, you really need to be on point with these imo:
1. Chain throws on spacies: this is the entire matchup pretty much because you'll be trying to make sh nair whiff from fox or powershield laser into grab on falco. You can find specifics elsewhere but know how to get them to 36%, how to pivot grab, when to up tilt, when to up air, and when you can tipper them based on DI.

2. Shiek: You'll want to be crouch canceling dash attack often in this matchup, so knowing throw follow ups can really help even up the punish game (key to winning this matchup). Shiek has a super easy weight + fall speed for comboing, so you can go for up throw to up tilt / up air at early percents and she's not great at coming down so juggling is effective as well.

3. Peach: Same MO as Shiek, but your dash dance shines more against Peach so even more throws. Outside of early percents you'll want to up throw IMO because Peach's options coming down are meh at best so she has to guess right to touch the ground. At early percents you have a DI mixup between forward throw and down throw (correct DI for one option is awful DI for the other). A free tipper can lead to some easy gimmick kills which really are important against a character that relies on the attrition of living as long as Peach does. Also, forward throw to sh tipper fair to combo practice is possible on her.

4. Marth: Probably most important thing in this matchup. Basically from 0 percent both Marth's want to grab each other. At early percents forward throw on Marth is GG (0% - 6% the forward throw to grab combo is either always possible OR super hard to avoid I'm not sure). Up throw is great as well since Marth only has down air to guess with. The whole matchup is just neutral to grab mainly or rarely a fair/dash attack to 0 to death since Marth edgeguards himself to effectively.

5. Puff: You won't grab puff as often in my experience, but it's decent when you do. I mainly go for the cheesy downthrow/forward throw to follow up mix up.

6. Ice Climbers: don't grab them

7. Falcon: I hate falcon. I need to further look into what options grab gives you, but you can go for tech chases mainly from up throw or down throw. At later percents up throw has unavoidable follow ups but I am still in the dark on what exactly works.

Thanks once again. I'll take that into account. Just got the game today, and unlocked Marth right away. I'll be working on some tech skill to start, then after that, this will definitely help.

Any tips on getting used to short hopping as well as dash dancing (especially with me not being used to tap jump)?

Thx!

 

[DerpyDayha]

Oops sent it twice. Sorry!

 

[TheBestinWestPalmBeach]

Falcon is said to have one touch kills on Marth. Those down throw chaingrabs are just painful. Just learn to DI some of those aerials and play a very patient game. I think after 10-15% you can go for uthrow chaingrabs.

You can't chaingrab falcon with up throw but you can get up tilt around 42 - 45 and f smash at 80

Does anyone know a marth that uses pivoting in matches and uses it efficiently? I have been experimenting and i want to see it in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqCD9pYEMgM Arc

Thanks once again. I'll take that into account. Just got the game today, and unlocked Marth right away. I'll be working on some tech skill to start, then after that, this will definitely help.

Any tips on getting used to short hopping as well as dash dancing (especially with me not being used to tap jump)?

Thx!

practice
don't turn off tap jump when you play pm

 

[Clebus]

Actually you can get a regrab on no DI at like 37% for the record

ALSO dtilt is amazing
ALSO ALSO followups for up throw on falcon are in Kadano's thread

 

[DerpyDayha]

practice
don't turn off tap jump when you play pm

Ok, but I'm talking specifically about melee, and it's a little tough to dd with tap jump on and I'm not used to it. Any advice? And also, l-canceling. How can I practice?

Once again, thanks for the support and help!

 

[AirFair]

short hopping is easy with a non control stick method. What I do is flick my thumb over x. Short hopping depends on how long you press the jump button, not how light. L cancelling is easy with 20XX, but otherwise, it's something you just have to grind out. Practice hitting an opponent with an aerial to factor in hitstun, and then l cancel that move. also practice from the ledge (ledgehop dair/fair) and from platforms.

 

[TheBestinWestPalmBeach]

Actually you can get a regrab on no DI at like 37% for the record

that might be pretty useful if you can grab, pummel them to 42, then up tilt. Didn't know, thanks!

Ok, but I'm talking specifically about melee, and it's a little tough to dd with tap jump on and I'm not used to it. Any advice? And also, l-canceling. How can I practice?

Once again, thanks for the support and help!

as for tap jump you pretty much have to get used to it.

For L-Canceling it's best to understand how it works:
You have 7 frames before you hit the ground to L-Cancel, but hitting an opponent's character or shield adds 3 frames of hitlag to your character, you want to be pressing L (or R or Z) in the last 4 frames before you hit the ground.

If you have 20XX you can turn on white/red flash for successful and unsuccessful L-Cancel and practice it with a visual feedback. This isn't required imo since you can learn the animations (I'd actually say this is good for tournament setting) and you'll get a good feel for what is being L-Canceled and what isn't.

I'd recommend practicing L-Canceling by doing aerials against ice climbers, as 2 bodies adds 6 frames of hitlag (don't quote me on this but I'm 99% sure this is how it works), meaning their timing is so unique it basically forces you to learn to L-Cancel in the last 4 frames. This will also help you not get wobbled for free in match. (S2J Method)

 

[Clebus]

that might be pretty useful if you can grab, pummel them to 42, then up tilt. Didn't know, thanks!

http://smashboards.com/posts/16635855/
It's actually 27-35, all followups are linked there.

 

[DerpyDayha]

as for tap jump you pretty much have to get used to it.

For L-Canceling it's best to understand how it works:
You have 7 frames before you hit the ground to L-Cancel, but hitting an opponent's character or shield adds 3 frames of hitlag to your character, you want to be pressing L (or R or Z) in the last 4 frames before you hit the ground.

If you have 20XX you can turn on white/red flash for successful and unsuccessful L-Cancel and practice it with a visual feedback. This isn't required imo since you can learn the animations (I'd actually say this is good for tournament setting) and you'll get a good feel for what is being L-Canceled and what isn't.

I'd recommend practicing L-Canceling by doing aerials against ice climbers, as 2 bodies adds 6 frames of hitlag (don't quote me on this but I'm 99% sure this is how it works), meaning their timing is so unique it basically forces you to learn to L-Cancel in the last 4 frames. This will also help you not get wobbled for free in match. (S2J Method)

Thx, I'll try that tomorrow. Any advice for practicing wave dashing? I know how it's done, and I kind of know the timing. I get it from 1/3 to 1/2 tries which is ok, but isn't a good number for an actual match, since I don't want to try and wavedash into a forward smash and end up full jumping and doing a fair. Not quite as effective lol.

 

[DerpyDayha]

Id there any way to play without opponents? It would really help for practice

 

[Clebus]

For wavedashing, you seriously just gotta practice. no shortcuts. As for playing without opponents, there's not much you can do. You can practice combos on CPUs at like lvl 3 for sorta ok DI, but you need to play real people to get good at neutral and actually comboing unpredictable DI.

 

[DerpyDayha]

I actually found a way to do one player. You open the name selection, put your cursor on it and press a and b simultaneously. Let go of a immediately and move the cursor Down to that yellow button at the bottom of the name selection (can't remamber what it says). Then press a again right as you land on it. U have to do it fast enough that u don't go back out into the menu. So ya. I have been working on my WD and it's getting better. I'd say I get it 3/4 to 4/5 tries. So I'm getting there. Still trying to learn shuffling tho. I know how to do it, it's just hard to practice.

 

[20X6]

Might be a dumb question, but are there any tips for up tilting? I'm really tired of breaking my combos with accidental up smashes, to the point where I'm considering figuring out if putting playdoh or putty to block the stick would be considered legal.

 

[Clebus]

Don't push all the way up. Just move the stick about halfway and hit A. You don't risk jumping due to tap jump either that way.

Or just push up while you're still in lag from another move, then hit A.

 

[Bounce N Back]

I'm practicing the chain throw into combo on FD against Fox right now as Marth. I'm able to consistently do it til about 50 to 53% with upthrows and uptilt regrabs. Once I get to here though, I have a hard time comboing Fox until like around the 70s or 80s. From there, I can get an up throw which usually leads to up airs up the wazzoo until i'm ready to send them off stage with a nair for the edgeguard. But between 50 and 70ish percent, I really don't know how to follow it up on FD. If someone could give me some pointers on how to continue the combo, that'd be awesome. If you can't, a dropped link to another forum that goes into an in depth description on the process as a whole wouldn't hurt either.

Also, does anyone know the percent at which you can get a upthrow into Fsmash on fox? I was thinking that could be a temporary solution to my problem, as I have a feeling its probly in that range somewhere that I'm having difficulty with comboing. If someone could give me an exact or close percent on that, I'd greatly appreciate that.

Thanks in advance :]

 

[goobaje]

I'll go first with a general question that applies to what I'm learning now

C-sticking SH double Fairs.
I've always just used the A button and some precise joystick movement if I needed to slow my horizontal speed.
My biggest issue is that I can barely reach the C-stick in time for even left facing double Fairs. Should I just use the A button for right-facing double Fairs? Is there some method of speeding up my hands?

I have the exact same problem. I guess I just have to keep practicing and hope my hand speed increases.

 

[Clebus]

I'm practicing the chain throw into combo on FD against Fox right now as Marth. I'm able to consistently do it til about 50 to 53% with upthrows and uptilt regrabs. Once I get to here though, I have a hard time comboing Fox until like around the 70s or 80s. From there, I can get an up throw which usually leads to up airs up the wazzoo until i'm ready to send them off stage with a nair for the edgeguard. But between 50 and 70ish percent, I really don't know how to follow it up on FD. If someone could give me some pointers on how to continue the combo, that'd be awesome. If you can't, a dropped link to another forum that goes into an in depth description on the process as a whole wouldn't hurt either.

Also, does anyone know the percent at which you can get a upthrow into Fsmash on fox? I was thinking that could be a temporary solution to my problem, as I have a feeling its probly in that range somewhere that I'm having difficulty with comboing. If someone could give me an exact or close percent on that, I'd greatly appreciate that.

Thanks in advance :]

Tbh you gotta do swift up airs -> regrab on no/slight DI and just regrab on hard DI till about 64% i think. check the flowchart though.

 

[heyitshoward]

you can get uthrow tipper between about 60 and low 70s. sometimes you need to move a bit (ex. no di requires a half step back/forwards). sometimes you can get it even earlier if they di all the way out i think

 

[Glish]

Is it just me or is CGing Fox easier than Falco?

Also, how do I beat Falco? I've been using my Sheik for that MU but want to learn it as Marth (I'm new to Marth, I've used Sheik for a while).

 

[Bounce N Back]

Tbh you gotta do swift up airs -> regrab on no/slight DI and just regrab on hard DI till about 64% i think. check the flowchart though.

you can get uthrow tipper between about 60 and low 70s. sometimes you need to move a bit (ex. no di requires a half step back/forwards). sometimes you can get it even earlier if they di all the way out i think

Thanks a bunch, i'll play around with that sometime this week.

 

[Clebus]

Also I'm reposting Beat's chaingrab post here:

"Upthrow CG flowchart against Fox
Read these notes before reading the flowchart:
- All damage numbers in this guide, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are PRE-THROW percentages.
- This flowchart assumes that you have room to work with. If your opponent starts DIing towards an edge you need to be prepared to cut the combo short with a tipper or dair.
- Every follow-up in every step is reactable. There's no need to guess or read which way they'll DI.
- Pummels aren't mandatory, but they make it easier to execute the following move and the extra damage they tack on means the finishing tipper will be stronger.


1. 0 - 16%: Regular regrabs

2. 17 - 32%:
2a. No DI or slight behind DI: Pivot regrabs.
2b. Any other DI: Regular regrabs.

3.0. 33%:
3.0a. No DI: Turnaround uptilt -> regrab
3.0b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt -> regrab
3.0c. Any other DI: Regular regrab -> pummel

3.1. 34% (the reason it's different from 33% is that uptilt starts becoming unreliable against no DI because of its weird "not-upwards" hitboxes. If you actually get the correct hitbox, it'll still connect into a regrab, so if you feel confident that you can get it every time then just follow the chart for 33%):
3.1a. No DI: Rising SHFFL uair --> regrab
3.1b. Slight behind DI: Uptilt --> regrab
3.1c. Any other DI: Regular regrab

3.2. 35 - ~59%:
4a. No DI or slight behind DI: SHFFL uair -> regrab
4b. Any other DI: Regular regrab

5.0. ~60 - ~65%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> regrab (they should now have at least 80%, but less than 90%)

5.1. ~69 - ~75%: Pummel at least once before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 105%)

6.0. ~80 - ~84%: Pummel once or twice before throwing -> delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 110%)

6.1. ~85 - ~87%: Delayed SHFFL uair -> tipper (post-tipper damage should be around 115%)

7. 90+%: Either upthrow -> tipper or upthrow -> weak uair -> tipper"

 

[Bounce N Back]

I didn't know that existed. Thats glorious. Looks like some of my follow ups up til like 48 or 50% pre throw aren't what is recommended on the chart here, but I haven't been punished for it by the competent fox players i've been messing with. Again thanks a bunch

 

[TheBestinWestPalmBeach]

http://smashboards.com/posts/16635855/
It's actually 27-35, all followups are linked there.

ty, I seriously have to practice these since this is a lot to remember. That said, looks like you really want the grab at around 40 since all of the options look pretty good reacting to their DI

 

[AirFair]

Yo we need to bring this thread back.

What are some good uses of Marth's dash attack?

 

[seko08sk]

Yo we need to bring this thread back.

What are some good uses of Marth's dash attack?

If I am correct yu can dash attack a fox/ falco around 40-60 % bait/ ther roll and grab them

 

[seko08sk]

Againt sheik beides grabs how else can / do you punish sheik
Doesnt matter how hard it is / swaggy or simple i just want some more info and gimmicks for this matchup

 

[heyitshoward]

use for dash attack:

- side throw followup on characters that di out (don't know specifics)
- calling a jump (ex. aerial needles, falco jumping to shoot a laser)
- calling an overextended/sloppy dd (laggier and riskier than dtilt, but goes farther)

if you get a tipper dash attack it sends them on a nice long slow arc above your head so it's not difficult to react with the appropriate conversion (aerials, tipper, whatever) but if you don't tipper it... it'll probably get cced and punished LOL

vs sheik:

it depends. there's not enough context in your question to answer it properly. what are you trying to punish? if she did something laggy such as up bing onto the stage there are a lot of things you can do. double dip, tipper, up b, etc. but if you're trying to punish like a whiffed ftilt or something then obviously you don't have such slow options.

 

[seko08sk]

use for dash attack:

- side throw followup on characters that di out (don't know specifics)
- calling a jump (ex. aerial needles, falco jumping to shoot a laser)
- calling an overextended/sloppy dd (laggier and riskier than dtilt, but goes farther)

if you get a tipper dash attack it sends them on a nice long slow arc above your head so it's not difficult to react with the appropriate conversion (aerials, tipper, whatever) but if you don't tipper it... it'll probably get cced and punished LOL

vs sheik:

it depends. there's not enough context in your question to answer it properly. what are you trying to punish? if she did something laggy such as up bing onto the stage there are a lot of things you can do. double dip, tipper, up b, etc. but if you're trying to punish like a whiffed ftilt or something then obviously you don't have such slow options.

Sorry I should be morr specific i want to punish wiffed spot dodgs and laggy moves

 

[Clebus]

I'm actually 80% sure in Marth dittos fthrow -> dash attack is guaranteed on good DI (i.e., DI that doesn't let you fsmash or regrabK) at a certain mid percent.
cuz i was definitely DIing down and away and m2k fthrow -> dash attacked me LOOL

 

[Qazoo306]

I main Roy in P:M. Is Marth too similar to play because their differences could throw me off?

 

[Rosy]

How viable is dair oos?

I have been using it and it has extended some many hits into huge combos and is great for setups to spike. But I never see any advanced players use it the amount I use it.

 

[Clebus]

Advanced players probably never use it because the other players they play don't put themselves into a position where it would be useful. Dair OoS is a huge commitment, but if it is guaranteed and has a guaranteed followup, there's no reason not to go for it.

 

[DerpyDayha]

About dash attack: Ken said that sometimes you can nair into a dash attack and then, if tippered, and depending a bit on DI, I'm pretty sure you can fsmash them.

Don't know if this helps anyone but it's something.

 

[Malcolm Pickering]

Hey i have a quick question: Can you shffl a rising fair with marth? Or does rising fair auto cance even when you fast fall?

 

[QuantumKiller]

Does anyone know

I main Roy in P:M. Is Marth too similar to play because their differences could throw me off?

Marth is similar but timings are going to be very different since he's a fastfaller. There are many thing one can do that the other can't. Look up videos and guides of both and you'll see that their playstyles are not entirely same.

 

[DireDrop]

Alright, here's my noob question: After jabbing a Fox using Side-B to recover to the ledge, what is the optimal follow-up? I've gotten into bad habits from fighting a lot of Falco's. I always go deep and end up getting hit by the fire during the charge up stage of Fox's Up-B (obviously not an issue with Falco). Should I just wait at the ledge to jab again? Maybe use counter? F-Smash!?