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Marth match-up thread

thebluedeath1000

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Forward-B IS easy to gimp.

Its not that hard to time an attack to pop him before reaching the edge, especially the d-tilt..hell, you can just edgehog with very few invinciblity frames if hes going to sweetspot. Falco's options aren't bad when hes high but he either has to go across or go deep and up.
 

Emblem Lord

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Technically you can't QAC into D-smash since the QAC leaves you in the air. They have to touch the ground first. Also you can Smash DI out of Pikachu's d-smash. Really hurts how effective it is.

Lucario doesn't outrange Marth except with U-smash, F-smash, Force Palm, and maybe his Dair. Overall Marth has range advantage, especially in close quarters.

You can hit Falco out of forward B. If Falco is gonna go for the edge just edge hug. Run off the stage then fastfall and immediately tap the analog towards the stage and Marth will grab the ledge. Falco will die and you won't get spiked since you gain invincibility frames. If he is going for the stage just neutral b, jab or f-smash.
 

MyRevenge.

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EditL Never mind I read it wrong
Funny how the Character Matchup Chart in the Tactical Discussion forum shows Marth as having advantage vs almost every character and barely and evens
 

Emblem Lord

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I gave Marth slight advantage vs Lucario and Pikachu. He goes even with Falco.

Also I already explained why that is in the Brawl match-up discussion thread.

Is it my fault that other posters don't invest as much time into match-up anlysis as I do or they have faulty reasoning?

Trust me shen I say Snake, Falco and Toon Link have better match-ups overall then Marth.
 

GamerGuitarist7

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Marth goes so even with metaknight its not even funny. there's no reason that he is 6:4 over him. its like marth vs falco in melee, marth may have had a slight advantage but it was a really even match.
 

Emblem Lord

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It's not like Marth vs Falco at all.

Marth vs Falco in Brawl is like Marth vs Falco in Melee. lol.

It could be 5:5 or 6:4. I'm just leaning towards 6:4. Mainly because Marth can stuff MK's special moves, he outranges MK, although their range is virtually eqaul on some moves. He can fair camp him, which makes it hard for MK to get in. And MK is light so MK will die sooner then Marth. It's just enough to give Marth slight advantage IMO.

But who knows? In the end it may end up as 5:5.
 

thebluedeath1000

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Yes, I know of the smash di for his d-smash..but that doesn't change how great of a prority advantage it holds, the quick attack cancels can get around you very fast despite what you say though.

Don't be so defensive towards normal comments emblem. This isn't someone trying to cut you down, this is me, you know me, don't get your panties in a wad.

Let people talk abit, you're too quick to shove your cents on them.
 

Emblem Lord

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If a person uses solid evidence and data then they can talk all they want, and I'll be happy to listen. Also I didn't underestimate Pikachu or anything. If you look at my laguage I don't say a character sucks or has no chance of stopping Marth unless that community as a whole has already agreed on that certain character being crappy.

Anyway, time for me to comment on some match-ups since no one posted anything.

Vs. Samus

There was alot of hoopla over Samus and her Zair back when it was first discovered. I also made a thread about it so you may wanna check that out. Basically the Samus boards weres aying how Samus countered Marth because of it. I'll tell you this now. Zair is nice, but it has been overhyped. The main thing though is that Zair is not good enough to make up for Samus' flaws. Plus the Zair can get predictable since Samus' SH is slow and floaty. Also when Samus is very close to Marth she won't Zair since it's too easy to react too and also if you are right next to ehr the Zair will fly past your body since it extends from her arm cannon, which she sticks out past her oppponent's body when they are too close.

Zair is very nice though and I will give a link talking about it after this analysis. Zair is pretty much why this match is only 6/4 and not 7/3. Samus as a character isn't that good. She lost so much in her transition to Brawl. Her killing power is now vastly reduced and she has trouble landing those kill moves, what little that she has. Missiles have been nerfed. They are weaker overall. So is her charge shot. She tends to only get kills at very high percents. Think 150ish and higher. Her f-tilt and d-tilt are still good though. F-tilt has good range and outranges Marth's attacks except for f-smash and shieldbreaker. Her up b is still good, but it tends to lose to other high priority attacks. D-smash is still good from what I have seen. Her jab combo is solid, but it can be DIed out of, but it hits behind her the first few frames.

It's honestly just the fact that Samus herself isn't that good that puts the match in Marth's advantage. Her camping isn't that great, since he can fair through missiles and thier are plenty of ways to deal with Zair. Plus Marth can put alot of pressure on her during edgeguarding even if he doesn't outright kill her. And as always Marth is a killing machine.

So 6/4 in Marth's favor.

Here is the thread where I talk about Zair for those that want to read up on it.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148271
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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I'm considering picking Marth up again as my secondary, much like I did in Melee. Link was primary, I used Marth to get through tough matchups. In this game, Ike is my main, but has trouble versus Snake/Pikachu/DDD especially, and slight issues with some other projectile users. I'm attempting to decide on whether or not Marth will be able to cover Ike's bad matchups when the need arises.

You ratios are well... not very descriptive. I can't draw conclusions based on just numbers. I'd like to see a general blanket argument on how Marth does against projectile spammers, and detailed match up analysis against Snake, Pikachu and DDD if possible?

Many thanks!
 

Emblem Lord

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The ratio's aren't for description, they are just so you know how much of an advantage or disadvantage Marth is at. If you want descriptions then you need only ask.

I already talked about Pikachu, which is a pretty straight forward match IMO. I'll talk about Dedede in a second.

You asked how Marth deals with projectiles overall so I will answer. Honestly his method will change depending on who he is facing. In general though the only reason Marth doesn't have advantage on projectile campers is because they CAN camp.

Overall Marth has the best moveset and he has no bad moves. Jab won't see much use, but it's very fast and the only reason it isn't used is because Dancing Blade is just as fast and combos into itself.

When dealing with arrows Marth can swat them or SH over them.
When dealing with lasers Marth will want to roll, full jump, short hop, and instant double jump.
When dealing with bombs and turnips you can just catch them easily or dodge. You can swat turnips as well.
Marth can easily jab aura sphere's that aren't charged up.
Grenades can be shielded or thrown back.
Boomerangs can be jabbed.
PK fire can be rolled past or jumped over.
Din's fire is beaten with SH airdodges pretty easily.
Gyro can be shielded or used against ROB.
Laser is tougher to deal with. This is mostly about prediction, but you really can't stop ROB from getting hits in with this. Mostly Marth just has to stay slippery and evasive and in ROB's face.
Waddle Dees can be swatted away or SHed over.
Fireballs can be jabbed.
Thunder Jolt can be jabbed as well.
Needles can be SHed over.

There is an optimal way to deal with all projectiles and Marth doesn't have too much trouble dealing with any projectile. Also don't think you have to limit yourself to the one or two methods I listed for each projectile. Mess around with your options and see what works.

Now I'll talk about Dedede and alot of Marth players will probably rejoice over this and alot of Dedede players will give me hell for this.

From what I can tell after some more experimenting and more testing I think Dedede vs Marth is 50/50 even.

Now here me out. Most of you will say that Dedede has a CG , and outranges Marth, and can get grabs off anything Marth can do, and can waddle dee spam him.

So let me clarify a few things. Dedede only outranges Marth with F-tilt. That's one move. It's a decent move, but not that great. Good range, but the damage is a little low at 9%. Marth can SH over this and since Marth uses SH's as his main form of approach he will end up avoiding this alot. All the rest of Marth's moves outrange Dedede's other moves. And Waddle Dee spam is easy to deal with. They can be swatted and SHed over.

At close range Marth has plenty of good options to rely on as always and he still has his range. Dedede won't use f-tilt at close range since it will put him at frame disadvantage on hit. So once Marth penetrates the f-tilts range and sets up his spacing game then he is golden. Also Marth CAN gimp Dedede. Marth ahs some nasty tricks that he can do on Dedede when he tries to recover. First off he can just run off the stage and swipe at Dedede. Dedede can't do much since Marth's aerials are faster. He can airdodge and then jump again, but this is good for Marth since it makes Dedede waste jumps. If Marth is hanging on the ledge while Dedede tries to go over him to the stage, then he is set-up for an easy spike.

The real fun begins when Dedede uses his up b. If he aims for the stage then Marth can counter. Even if Dedede cancels his up b Marth will recover sooner then him as long as he countered a bit early and then Marth can just hit Dedede back out for more edgeguarding or repeat the scenario. If Dedede cancels his up b too close to the ground he will bust his *** giving Marth ample time to tipper f-smash in which case he will die if his damage is high enough. At the very least Marth has now reset the scenario. And of course if Dedede lands on Marth while he is countering then Marth will just knock him back out. If Dedede goes for the ledge he has to cancel his up b acertain distance above the ledge so he won't miss it. So if you for it you can hit Dedede back out if he tries to aim for the ledge, since he is vulnerable before he grabs it.

With this method Marth can inflict heavy damage on Dedede and make it extremely difficult for Dedede to recover. Now Dedede CAN recover. It's not impossible from what I have seen. Mostly he just has to be tricky and try not to get too preditcable, but the situation is heavily in Marth's favor and Dedede will usallly eat some hits before he can make it back. One way he can get out is if he hits the part of Marth's body with his up b that is facing away from the ledge this way Marth knocks him towards the stage when he counters. Dedede will eat some damage, but at least he ended Marth's recovery trap. Although Marth can counter this by not counter at all and just doing SH airdodge and then getting Dedede off the stage witha smash. But as I said this situation IS in Marth's favor so Dedede must be very careful.

Overall the main things that make it even are Dedede's CG, his camping while not extremely effective does help him out a bit, he is heavy so he doesnt die easily, and he has good recovery. But his problems are that his kill moves aren't good at all. They are all slow, so he cant really kill well at all. He has to rely on gimping with his aerials and his aerials aren't even that good either. Bair is good, but the rest are only above average. He has good close range options, besides his grabs, but none that are amazing and Marth outranges them all. Although his jab combo is good, but again Marth won't get hit by it consistently due to his spacing. Also a small tidbit on the CG. It seems like alot of Marth s have been saiyng that you can up b out of the shield grab. I have done it in tourney, but I don't know if it can be done consistently or if it's just because Marth flys far back from the d-throw. IF it turns out that Dedede can't consistently CG Marth then it's his advantage 60/40 no question.

I'll do the Snake match-up later.

WHOMG MARTH HAS TEH LIEK NO BAD MATCH-UPS?!?!? WTFHAX!!!

Yeah.

And niether do Falco, Snake, Toon Link and Wolf IMO.

Top tiers generally have no bad match-ups or 1 bad match-up. 2 at the most.

If you don't understnad that then you need to play some other fighting games.
 

Emblem Lord

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Fairlly certain that doesn't work on Marth, since Marth flys the farthest when Dedede down throws him.

But I'll test it anyways.

Edit: So, yeah I'm ****ing around with this, and there is like no way that Dedede can infinte CG Marth unless there is a wall. I could be wrong, but I really don't think I am.

Also Marth is hard to consistently CG anyway. Even M2K has trouble with it.
 

TechnoMonster

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I'm sorry I misread the thread, I was thinking Mario. DeDeDe's primary kill move is his uptilt which kills at normal smash percents tho and is fast.
 

Emblem Lord

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Oh.....

Ok.

*continues testing other things since my Wii is already on.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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Thanks a bundle Emblem Lord. ^^

How has your Ike been developing? Or have you given up on him because he Marth is proving to be so much better? xD

If you are still playing Ike regularly, I'd really like your skills in Matchup analysis in my thread on the Ike boards. You've already posted once I think, the "Detailed Character Matchups" thread. I'd really appreciate that.
 

Emblem Lord

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My Ike is decent. I play very safe. I don't take too many risk try to go for psychic smashes like alot of Ike players. I don't like taking gambles.

I would have to mess around with Ike more but honestly his match-ups aren't too different from Marth's although he generally does a bit worse in any match then Marth does.
 

darkmarth88

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hey everyone. up until now, i have used this site as a source of info to better my metagame, advanced techniques, etc. so i can only hope you welcome one of my rare posts. XD the characters that have given me trouble in order is zelda, wolf, pit. we all know marth isnt much of a projectile avoider, but a good zelda player will realize this and is very deadly on efficiently landing them. she's a great camper, but i have found that closing the distance with dodging, double jumping, air dodges and counter have worked wonders, especially countering her -->b. i would suggest using your spacing correctly and try and predict her dodging and dont be afraid to grab when necessary. and never stay above her, she will **** at that point, stay as low to the ground as possible. as for wolf, his smashes pack a punch, but if you can keep him above you and combo off of that, you should be fine. again, forward grab into combo and occasional countering to keep him on his toes. remember, your fair is far superior to his. d-tilt is also a safe and reliable move. pit is another annoyance, his arrows are the main problem, if a pit has an excellent control of arrows once you're off the stage, it almost spells death, well almost. with appropriate di, and airdodges you may still have a chance. again, close the distance between your opponent and capitalize on your better priority. forward b combo is great at close range and almost outprioritizes other moves. adapt to your opponent, that is your greatest asset. i hope you have found all this info useful. till we meet again.
 

Gum

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Maybe its just in my head, but it seems like Marth "options" against projectiles is actually a curse. Im a Samus main who has never had a problem with a Marth. This is mainly because, when going against Marth, you fire projectiles with the intent of forcing his move. This goes for any good projectile based character. Knowing Marths options is key, and when you know these (or if you are just observant), you can capitalize on how he reacts. Its actually REALLY easy to beat him using this strategy. You fire, you read, and you capitalize. This is pretty much how the whole match goes. On another note though, I mainly see this happen when Marths goes against people who use campy characters and switch between aggressive and defensive on the fly. In a nutshell, Marth is a predictable *** dude who's options help him mostagainst characters with less options than himself (poor C. Falcon ::sigh::).
 

Emblem Lord

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Play some better Marths and stop posting nonsense plz.

How the hell can options hinder someone?

Be serious. And Marth is anything but predictable.

Marth has options that put him in positions where he is safe and can react to anything osmeone does. When he gets close if you try to spam him he can just attack you. SH Fair puts him in a position to react to anything when it's shielded. An opponent has options, but they can't attack him without risking that Marth will hit them. There best option is to roll away or jump away, which still leaves Marth safe and gives him ample time to reset his spacing.

I don't think I need to go into what Samus' problems are or the fact that she does not compare to Marth in anyway.

I certainly don't have the audacity to just go into a Samus match-up thread and post about how predictable she is or why she isn't good or w/e.

You know what?

**** it. I don't like your post and I don't like your disrespect towards Hugs in the Samus boards.

Post more dumb **** so I can tear it apart. Who knows maybe the rest of the Marth boards will get a laugh at your stupidity.
 

alchfilosofer

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Maybe its just in my head, but it seems like Marth "options" against projectiles is actually a curse. Im a Samus main who has never had a problem with a Marth. This is mainly because, when going against Marth, you fire projectiles with the intent of forcing his move. This goes for any good projectile based character. Knowing Marths options is key, and when you know these (or if you are just observant), you can capitalize on how he reacts. Its actually REALLY easy to beat him using this strategy. You fire, you read, and you capitalize. This is pretty much how the whole match goes. On another note though, I mainly see this happen when Marths goes against people who use campy characters and switch between aggressive and defensive on the fly. In a nutshell, Marth is a predictable *** dude who's options help him mostagainst characters with less options than himself (poor C. Falcon ::sigh::).
Marth options against many projectiles: COUNTER, shield/powershield, jump/shorthop/instant_midair_jump, ftilt/jab/fsmash/fair (any move whit enough priority to block projectiles), airdoge, rolls/spot_doges... (thanks to marth's speed many of this options are better than other characters).

also if you try to punish the marth's anty-projectile options, he has the counter
 

OmegaXF

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This list says even vs a Snake. That is so wrong. The way to kill Snake is an argument right there. So Snake can break this list to shreds saying it is an even match up. Not to mention some of the other characeters. Im just saying this list is not 100% accurate, or close to it.
 

Emblem Lord

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Uh huh.

Honestly the Snake boards thnk Marth beats Snake which I don't think is true at all.

Anyway, this is Marth we are talking about. He kills stuff real good. Tippers and good aerials. Plus it's pretty easy to spike Snake or hit with tipper nairs when he is recovering.

Honestly that's not even a real argument.

You're gonna argue how MARTH kills?

Really?
 

Emblem Lord

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Gonna make some changes to some of Marth's match-ups.

Zelda will be changed to 6/4 Marth's favor. Din's fire is not hard to deal with and Marth can out space her once he gets close and she has no reliable answer. It's very effective agianst her since if she wants to attack she risk getting hurt, plus Marth is a great edgeguarder and Zelda would be ahrd pressed to get in her kill moves when Marth is spacing correctly.

Wolf will also be changed to 6/4 for the same reason really. Wolf's blaster is not hard to deal with and if Marth spaces well he can avoid Wolf's best kill move, his d-smash and his other close range options like his shine. F-smash is annoying, but Marth can outprioritize it. I have beaten Wolf's f-smash with a fair from Marth. And if Wolf spams it everytime Marth tries to space he will get predictable, so good Wolf's won't spam it. And of course Wolf is easy to gimp and falls prey to Marth's awesome edgeguarding.
 

Gum

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Play some better Marths and stop posting nonsense plz.

How the hell can options hinder someone?

Be serious. And Marth is anything but predictable.

Marth has options that put him in positions where he is safe and can react to anything osmeone does. When he gets close if you try to spam him he can just attack you. SH Fair puts him in a position to react to anything when it's shielded. An opponent has options, but they can't attack him without risking that Marth will hit them. There best option is to roll away or jump away, which still leaves Marth safe and gives him ample time to reset his spacing.

I don't think I need to go into what Samus' problems are or the fact that she does not compare to Marth in anyway.

I certainly don't have the audacity to just go into a Samus match-up thread and post about how predictable she is or why she isn't good or w/e.

You know what?

**** it. I don't like your post and I don't like your disrespect towards Hugs in the Samus boards.

Post more dumb **** so I can tear it apart. Who knows maybe the rest of the Marth boards will get a laugh at your stupidity.
In other words, Marth can only take full advantage of another if that particular opponent has fewer options than Marth. He has options against different characters, but within each individual match, they are limited. For example, he cant jab falco's lasers, but he can roll (among a few other things), but if a good falco knows what marth can do against them, they can capitalize on the reactions that they know he is going to use.

You are truely laughable. My point wasn't just about samus, it was about any projectile based character with a good player behind them. You can do all you want to avoid and counter, but if your opponent reads you like a book, it won't help much in the long run. Its basically like saying "well I know Marth needs to get in relatively close, so let me make this work for myself and take advantage of that detail." It has nothing to do with Marth being good. I fail to see how that is a rediculous notion. You come up with pseudo-factual bull**** when really, It comes down to who is the better strategist. Obviousley this is about match-ups and statistics, but it seems like you give info without taking into account all the elements in the equation, or anything that could potentially happen. Obviousley, Marth is a kill machine, but what if someone uses their character advantages to sway the match, and basically play smart while keeping these things in mind. In short, your analysis is pointless. If someone interested in Marth match-ups sees your "facts", but they know things from experience to be different, they arent gonna give a **** about your crazy talk because it doesn't universaly apply. Try not to be such an elitist plz.
 

Emblem Lord

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Are you stupid?

Projectile camping is nothing new.

Marth was dealing with it in Melee and guess who won the most tournies in Melee?

Marth.

Guess who was considered no less then second best character in melee.

Marth.

When projectile campers use projectiles there is thing called recovery time you see, that allows a character to close in. This is what you have to take advantage of. I'm being elitist. I think you need to go back to the Samus boards and READ some of your post in thier and then see who is elitist.

Pseudo-factual bull****? The **** I'm saying is just raw data and tactics. You actually said that Marth's options limit him which is by far the dumbest thing I ever heard.

EVERYONE that knows thier **** has said that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to match-ups and I ALWAYS try my hardest to look at things from both characters sides to see what each character has in thier arsenal.

The only character in the game who's projectile camping is effective against Marth is Falco, but Falco lags quite a bit after shooting lasers and using his shine. You going to call that pseudo-factual nonsense? Guess what? The fact that you know Marth has to get closer is meaningless. Marth is a very good character and has no problem getting close so even if you know what he is going to do, alot of the time you can't effectively stop him from getting close through the use of projectiles. There are alot of ways to deal with them and they aren't unstoppable.

You are either a moron or you just suck with words and don't know how to explain yourself. Either way you shouldn't be debating.

To anyone reading this thread: Don't hesitate to laugh at this fool and post about how much of a moron he is.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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Gonna make some changes to some of Marth's match-ups.

Zelda will be changed to 6/4 Marth's favor. Din's fire is not hard to deal with and Marth can out space her once he gets close and she has no reliable answer. It's very effective agianst her since if she wants to attack she risk getting hurt, plus Marth is a great edgeguarder and Zelda would be ahrd pressed to get in her kill moves when Marth is spacing correctly.

when any one attacks they risk getting hurt i feel u ment something else by this, like since her reach is shorter she could hit away before she gets close confirm if i am interpreting this correctly

i think zelda should be a 5/5 i am now going to break it down a bit and maybe over simplify a little but i am lazy so i wont go move by move

zelda has din's fire marth has no projectiles zelda advantage also dins fire hurts marth when he tries to recover racks up damage
marth has speed zelda is a slowish marths adv
marth has reach zelda has some distance but marth wins this one out
zeldas upsmash has priority witch hurts marths air game
zeldas down smash sends people at good angles but short reach so good spacing marths dont have to worry that much about it
zelda's up air beats out marths down air and is a killer
zeldas recovery can be predictable and has lag if landed on the stage which marth can take advantage of

ok since as previously stated i am lazy i am goining to simplify this even more
marth has speed and range
zelda has projectile and some massive priority and some range of her own
i think they even each other out

Note: i have to commend you for answering so many people on this topic while my own laziness keeps me from even going into great detail on just this one matchup (maybe its lack of motivation and not laziness)
Also sorry this is poorly written
 

Emblem Lord

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The reason it's 6/4 though is because Din's fire is easy to get past then Marth simply outspaces her at close range and avoids her set-ups.

Zelda has good options, but Marth's spacing takes care of alot what she can do to him.
 

k4polo

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Not to be mean but I trend I am seeing is that you are putting everything in Marth's favor. Very Soon everyone be 6:4 to Marth's advantage for some other reason. It seems a bit biased IMO.
 

alchfilosofer

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In other words, Marth can only take full advantage of another if that particular opponent has fewer options than Marth. He has options against different characters, but within each individual match, they are limited. For example, he cant jab falco's lasers, but he can roll (among a few other things), but if a good falco knows what marth can do against them, they can capitalize on the reactions that they know he is going to use.

You are truely laughable. My point wasn't just about samus, it was about any projectile based character with a good player behind them. You can do all you want to avoid and counter, but if your opponent reads you like a book, it won't help much in the long run. Its basically like saying "well I know Marth needs to get in relatively close, so let me make this work for myself and take advantage of that detail." It has nothing to do with Marth being good. I fail to see how that is a rediculous notion. You come up with pseudo-factual bull**** when really, It comes down to who is the better strategist. Obviousley this is about match-ups and statistics, but it seems like you give info without taking into account all the elements in the equation, or anything that could potentially happen. Obviousley, Marth is a kill machine, but what if someone uses their character advantages to sway the match, and basically play smart while keeping these things in mind. In short, your analysis is pointless. If someone interested in Marth match-ups sees your "facts", but they know things from experience to be different, they arent gonna give a **** about your crazy talk because it doesn't universaly apply. Try not to be such an elitist plz.
Dude, seriously Marth have MANY options, only an idiot would try the same tactic again and again, not to mention if falco try to use Fsmash/phantom to counter his anti-proyectile tactics, marth could just use counter and ready.

I think your problem is what you think many marth players are idiotic, well you obliviously have no idea.
 

alchfilosofer

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Not to be mean but I trend I am seeing is that you are putting everything in Marth's favor. Very Soon everyone be 6:4 to Marth's advantage for some other reason. It seems a bit biased IMO.
well since marth is a very no_lagy character whit many speed, useful moves, priority, range, and counter, it may have his reasons
 

Emblem Lord

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I have reasons for this.

Sorry, but Marth is a good character. Not my fault.

If it makes you feel better I don't think Falco or Snake have any bad match-ups either.

And hey at least I give solid reasoning and evidence to back up my claims. I'm not some blind fanboy here, I just go by what I know and I visit the other boards regularlyto see what discoveries have been made and how it will affect Marth's match-ups with them.

To be fair, I think Marth's match-ups with Wolf, Falco, Snake and ROB and MK are debateable.

An argument can be made for any one of those match-ups to be even, in Marth's advantage or thier advantage. I think in the end all those match-ups will be even though since an argument can be made for either side.

Anyway, the Ness and Lucas match-ups will be changed. Marth has an infinite on both of them which is good for damage racking and setting up for a kill at higher percents.

The infinite is just grabbing them and hitting them till they get out then re-grab and repeat the process.

They will both be changed to 7/3 maybe 8/2. More then likely Ness will be changed to 8/2 since Marth works him over harder then Lucas. Lucas is just overall a better character.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

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are these numbers coming from the base character or from the almost non existent meta-game b/c the way you answer makes it sound like you are talking more about the player behind the character then the character themselves?

you talk about spacing as if it was another move. When in fact yes it's true marth as well as most characters when spaced very well are much harder to beat you can't just say a well spaced marth can win especially when you don't have any proof to back this up and you don't even mention the spacing options for the character he is up against. You somtimes (not saying you intend to) make it sound as if you have a great pro marth fighting a so-so other smasher thats the feeling i get from reading your posts
 

Emblem Lord

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No.

This is basic number ratio that has been used since the days of street fighter.

All it represents is how much an advantage or disadvantage the match-up is.

If you think I'm saying I have a pro Marth and I'm playing scrubs then you have ignored every single one of my post in this thread.

When Marth spaces well, it simply limits his opponents options. This is nothing new to the fighting game world. Many characters in different fighting games use this very basic strategy to shut down other characters or at least give them advantage in the match-up.

I'm just talking basic strategy and if you can't see that then you should seek to understand fighting games on a higher level.
 

∫unk

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The infinite is just grabbing them and hitting them till they get out then re-grab and repeat the process.
You mean fthrow -> jab until they DI out -> fthrow again? can you explain further

I think Zelda is easier than Wolf, Zelda's projectile is slower and much easier to approach against.
 
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