Marth 1.1.0 Patch Changes

[SilverForUbers]

Is it me or has Marth's Dancing Blade Down 3 have a faster transition into the next DB form?

 

[Vipermoon]

Just you. That would have showed in the data dump. It doesn't.

 

[drogoth232]

Is it me or has Marth's Dancing Blade Down 3 have a faster transition into the next DB form?

You have more of a window to do it, so maybe that's what it is.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Alright. I didn't really use it very much before this so maybe that's why it seems faster. I usually play online so the lag probably made it transition slower than it already is.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Looks like Sakurai put more work into adding attack effects onto Marth's sword than buffing him in terms of gameplay.

 

[Didier337]

Well his tippered D-air max percent to jab lock change from 33% -> 37%

Still not useful enough even if you manage to pull it off after a footstool.

 

[Didier337]

What a shame,I was really looking forward for marth to be buffed.I guess better luck next time.

 

[CommanderRin]

At least we got some form of a buff again for Marcina. I was really hoping for a better grab game but it seems our tactician got ahead of us in that regard.

Either way, I don't think we need too much more, some better frame data would be nice for Fair, but in reality I just want our moves to be either safer on shield or a buffed grab game.

Just my opinion...

 

[Vipermoon]

"Yo, I think Marth and Lucina fans will be happy to hear about the multitude of endlag changes. Utilt and Neutral B at any charge. As well as the landing lag for Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair, and Up B. I'm still compiling FAF changes for all characters, but I couldn't contain that news."

Quote from reliable source @ Zapp Branniglenn from the official 1.1 changes thread and I can't wait for his actual numbers. I really hope this stuff is true. If you're wondering why we never noticed some of these landing lag changes it seems to me that it's because the difference in landing lag between each move is probably about the same. And since we are so afraid of placebo... yeah this stuff can sneak by.

 

[SilverForUbers]

"Yo, I think Marth and Lucina fans will be happy to hear about the multitude of endlag changes. Utilt and Neutral B at any charge. As well as the landing lag for Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair, and Up B. I'm still compiling FAF changes for all characters, but I couldn't contain that news."

Quote from reliable source @ Zapp Branniglenn from the official 1.1 changes thread and I can't wait for his actual numbers. I really hope this stuff is true. If you're wondering why we never noticed some of these landing lag changes it seems to me that it's because the difference in landing lag between each move is probably about the same. And since we are so afraid of placebo... yeah this stuff can sneak by.

Sounds promising. Hopefully ff fair is a bit safer. Still kinda sad Sakurai didn't add more shield stunn on Marth's tippers.

 

[Didier337]

At least we got some form of a buff again for Marcina. I was really hoping for a better grab game but it seems our tactician got ahead of us in that regard.

Either way, I don't think we need too much more, some better frame data would be nice for Fair, but in reality I just want our moves to be either safer on shield or a buffed grab game.

Just my opinion...

True,I just want Marcina to have a more reliable neutral game for spacing correctly.Shields cover most of Marcina's options even when tippered,unfortunantly.

 

[drogoth232]

"Yo, I think Marth and Lucina fans will be happy to hear about the multitude of endlag changes. Utilt and Neutral B at any charge. As well as the landing lag for Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair, and Up B. I'm still compiling FAF changes for all characters, but I couldn't contain that news."

Quote from reliable source @ Zapp Branniglenn from the official 1.1 changes thread and I can't wait for his actual numbers. I really hope this stuff is true. If you're wondering why we never noticed some of these landing lag changes it seems to me that it's because the difference in landing lag between each move is probably about the same. And since we are so afraid of placebo... yeah this stuff can sneak by.

It's completely possible. I don't think IASA frames are added to the landing animations so it's completely possible and would be very nice to see.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Quote from reliable source @ Zapp Branniglenn from the official 1.1 changes thread and I can't wait for his actual numbers. I really hope this stuff is true. If you're wondering why we never noticed some of these landing lag changes it seems to me that it's because the difference in landing lag between each move is probably about the same. And since we are so afraid of placebo... yeah this stuff can sneak by.

If you want frame counted numbers from me you'll have to wait a while. I'm working on getting a list of all characters differences in endlag. Because our advances with data dumps will tell us any changes in damage, knockback, and angle. Other people need to do side by side comparisons to check changes in animation data, which is not included in the dump. And that means finding differences in a move's endlag individually. If I can just get a list of what people will need to look for, many others can frame count more accurately than I could.

Marth's endlag changes are huge for his character, so I had to announce it early. I could tell you how many frames I feel are different just by my eyeballing it, but I'm almost certainly wrong on the exact numbers. Marth's Utilt reduction seems to be a standard 3 frames. Fair, Bair, and Uair I almost missed. Let's say 2 on each. 3 on shield breaker, regardless of charge. And another 3 for the special fall landing lag of Up B. Dair is the most significant. I'd say 5 at the least.

Haven't taken a look at Marth's customs. When a special move has a change of any kind, they're not always diligent about changing the custom variants in the same way.

And finally, all differences in endlag are also on Lucina as well.

 

[Illuminado]

Hype. Am now updating. So sad I have to go to work today. I'll throw Marth around and see if I can't see any of this end lag reduction you're talking about.

 

[Illuminado]

Here's a random specific case that may demonstrate a bit of ending lag reduction to you guys. I've whacked Captain Falcon on 22% in training mode. Sour spot Fair to jab true combos if you keep holding forward to get in range of tipper jab. Only at this percent so far, but I'm pretty certain it didn't do this pre patch.

 

[Vipermoon]

If you want frame counted numbers from me you'll have to wait a while. I'm working on getting a list of all characters differences in endlag. Because our advances with data dumps will tell us any changes in damage, knockback, and angle. Other people need to do side by side comparisons to check changes in animation data, which is not included in the dump. And that means finding differences in a move's endlag individually. If I can just get a list of what people will need to look for, many others can frame count more accurately than I could.

Marth's endlag changes are huge for his character, so I had to announce it early. I could tell you how many frames I feel are different just by my eyeballing it, but I'm almost certainly wrong on the exact numbers. Marth's Utilt reduction seems to be a standard 3 frames. Fair, Bair, and Uair I almost missed. Let's say 2 on each. 3 on shield breaker, regardless of charge. And another 3 for the special fall landing lag of Up B. Dair is the most significant. I'd say 5 at the least.

Haven't taken a look at Marth's customs. When a special move has a change of any kind, they're not always diligent about changing the custom variants in the same way.

And finally, all differences in endlag are also on Lucina as well.

So for sure those are the only moves with end lag changes? Including everything from jab 2 to DB4 down?

 

[Roy of Pharae]

I barely noticed any changes with Marth when playing.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I can't believe dancing blade is worse now. People can escape right after hit one with no problems.

 

[Kira~]

I killed a Diddy at the middle of the stage with the second hit of nair at around 115%. Did it always kill this early or...?

EDIT: I also just killed a Roy at 110%.

EDIT 2: T.Link at 116%

 

[Moydow]

Been studying the frame data after hearing about these landing/ending lag changes, and here's what I've come up with so far:

U-tilt: Now lasts a total of 36 frames, down from 39 (FAF 37, down from 40)

F-air: Now 16 frames landing lag, down from 18
U-air: Now 14 frames landing lag, down from 16
D-air: Now 24 frames landing lag, down from 28 (I checked several times, it's only 4 frames less)
B-air: Now 17 frames landing lag, down from 19

Shield Breaker: Now lasts a total of 50 frames uncharged, down from 52 (FAF 51, down from 53)
Dolphin Slash: Now 20 frames landing lag, down from 23

If anyone wants to double-check these numbers, be my guest.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uair traps now super legit and scary.

"I'm really feelin it!!!!!"

 

[Illuminado]

Lol @ Emblem Lord . You happier yet? :D. Nintendo seem to be delivering slow and steady buffs where they're due. I've seen you go from melancholy to positive on the state of Marth through the patches since release. Good times.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly I'm mostly happy for you guys. I have no intention of ever using Marth again in a competitive environment.

#RyuNation

 

[Vipermoon]

I can't believe dancing blade is worse now. People can escape right after hit one with no problems.

Then DB faster. All they did was extended the timing to input each hit. That's a buff.

Been studying the frame data after hearing about these landing/ending lag changes, and here's what I've come up with so far:

U-tilt: Now lasts a total of 36 frames, down from 39 (FAF 37, down from 40)

F-air: Now 16 frames landing lag, down from 18
U-air: Now 14 frames landing lag, down from 16
D-air: Now 24 frames landing lag, down from 28 (I checked several times, it's only 4 frames less)
B-air: Now 17 frames landing lag, down from 19

Shield Breaker: Now lasts a total of 50 frames uncharged, down from 52 (FAF 51, down from 53)
Dolphin Slash: Now 20 frames landing lag, down from 23

If anyone wants to double-check these numbers, be my guest.

Thanks. Yeah saw this in the other thread. Lord William said he got the same numbers (and also that Bair is 19 > 17). So these are definitely accurate guys.

 

[A_Kae]

Thanks for getting those frame changes. Updating the OP now.

Definitely feeling better about this patch then I did last night. Those are some really nice changes.

I'm going to do some in depth testing on u-tilts movement later today.

 

[CommanderRin]

The changes are definitely better than previously expected, tho I still feel that some more changes could be made to give Marcina one last finally push into more viable territory (aka better).

The only time I'm happy about Lucina being Marths clone is that when balance patches are put in place I can always assume Marth changes reflect Lucina's lol...

U-air and N-air are my most used normals now lmao

 

[Emblem Lord]

The change to nair only serves to widen the gap between Marth and Lucina.

 

[CommanderRin]

The change to nair only serves to widen the gap between Marth and Lucina.

True, but I meant frame data changes and the likes. If Marth's U-tilt gets lower end lag Lucina gets it to. Easier for me since I don't really know how to go about confirming move-set changes.

Marth will always be better unless Sakurai makes some type of big change to Lucina.

 

[CURRY]

Buff/nerf for DB?
Sure, DB -> SB is harder, but aerial rising DB -> DS, which is actually used for recovering? D:<
All it takes is a slight adjustment, so it's ok. It looks like Marth starts to fall a LITTLE before DS now, but it's very minimal.

DB feels SO close to what it was in Brawl now (I'm ashamed to say this, but I occasionally didn't all hits because of the tighter window). Now all we need is the insane IASA from Brawl, hah.

Nair still feels like it has less lag than uair, but if we line up http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth and the "16 -> 14" frames for uair from this thread, that doesn't seems right. Are we really sure on this? We have an accuracy on this data of within 1 frame or something, right?
Or maaaybe it's just me.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lucina's Utilt damage buff is crazy good. The front hit does slightly more than half the damage between Marth's sour and sweet spot and the back hit does even more damage than that.

Having the same knockback values, this makes Lucina's front facing Utilt almost as strong (very close) as Marth's game-release tipper Utilt. While the back hit is actually slightly stronger than game-release tipper back hit.

Add all of this to the fact that Marth's Utilt now inconsitently moves him around (messes with your spacing which is super important in the juggles) and that you only have react to and memorize 1 set of percents for follow-ups (no tippers/non-tippers) Lucina now has a better Utilt than Marth.

@ CURRY ever since 1.0.8 Nair had 12 frames of landing lag

@ A_Kae so it ended up being 1.1.0 (I wanted this one the most)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Glad to hear you got the numbers for the changes.

Every patch we hear Marth players yelling about how different his DB is. If you really think there's some difference with the move and its many hits, please try to elaborate such a change and why you think it's there. It's extremely inconvenient for people to carefully check each individual attack.

And you guys don't even use that move anyway, so whad'you know?

So for sure those are the only moves with end lag changes? Including everything from jab 2 to DB4 down?

I tested everything I could. But that didn't include dash and pivot grabs. My testing method just doesn't allow me to see those moves with any kind of accuracy and I don't ever assume there's a change just because I haven't checked it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zapp we got Marths that dont even know he can tipper uair to tipper uair and thats a day one combo.

Dont take people too serious lol.

 

[Bribery]

These buffs! I'm so glad I stuck with Marth. I picked him up in 1.0.4 to learn the fundamentals of Smash and ended up really enjoying him, especially after the Jab buff.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

yay, Marth buffs.

I can't do anything for a couple days as I'm out with some friends, but is the "inconsistent movement" on U-Tilt because you're not buffering the actions properly due to the new FAF? I don't think it moves unless you buffer the move.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Cool, Side B buffs. Playing Lucina casually, I find Side B too hard to use.

 

[Vipermoon]

yay, Marth buffs.

I can't do anything for a couple days as I'm out with some friends, but is the "inconsistent movement" on U-Tilt because you're not buffering the actions properly due to the new FAF? I don't think it moves unless you buffer the move.

No it's something more complicated than that. I don't have access to game right now but yesterday what I found basically matches what is said in the original post and below. At this point I want them to fix it so that it does nothing like Lucina. At any rate, we'll see what A_Kae finds out.

 

[fox67890]

This also entails that the second hit of nair kills earlier then...right?
Also, I'm definitely feeling the thing CURRY mentioned about aerial rising DB -> DS having stricter timing. Definitely something you need to sit down for a moment and readjust yourself too. If you time it slightly incorrectly, you'll just do the second hit of dancing blade when trying to recover, which often spells out death for you. This is actually kinda disappointing, but with just a bit of practice, you should be able to still do it optimally.

 

[Vipermoon]

This also entails that the second hit of nair kills earlier then...right?
Also, I'm definitely feeling the thing CURRY mentioned about aerial rising DB -> DS having stricter timing. Definitely something you need to sit down for a moment and readjust yourself too. If you time it slightly incorrectly, you'll just do the second hit of dancing blade when trying to recover, which often spells out death for you. This is actually kinda disappointing, but with just a bit of practice, you should be able to still do it optimally.

Our Nair is now by far the strongest Nair in the game.

Yeah actually I meant to ask about that... if the DB1 timing increase applied to aerial I'd be pretty pissed. It's already almost useless in recovery, why make it riskier? One mistake and you are dead for sure.

 

[CommanderRin]

So F-air is still kinda useless compared to these U-air and N-air buffs we keep getting haha...

 

[Trunks159]

Our Nair is now by far the strongest Nair in the game.

Stop it.