Marth 1.1.0 Patch Changes

[MOI-ARI]

I don't recall checking (along with many things apparently) If Counter had been changed? Less end lag on it at all?

 

[A_Kae]

04b=Spotdodge
04c=Roll (Forwards?)
04d= Roll (Backwards?)
05c=Utilt
219=Shield Breaker
21a=Storm Thrust?
21b=Dashing Assault
21c=?
21d=Shield breaker (Charged)
21e=Storm thrust (Charged)
21f=dashing assault (Charged)
220=?
229=Aerial shield breaker?
22a=?
22b=Aerial Dashing Assault
22c=?
22d=?
22e=?
22f=Aerial Dashing Assault (Charged)
230=?

And then the bottom three are landing lags for up specials like @ Vipermoon said. The ? are almost certainly related to the charged neutral specials (since they're all 2 frame reductions, 42 > 40), but most of them don't appear in the raw 1.1 dump, so I can't be sure: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/144/marth.html

Edit: Charged or aerial neutral specials.

 

[Vipermoon]

04b=Spotdodge
04c=Roll (Forwards?)
04d= Roll (Backwards?)
05c=Utilt
219=Shield Breaker
21a=Storm Thrust?
21b=Dashing Assault
21c=?
21d=Shield breaker (Charged)
21e=Storm thrust (Charged)
21f=dashing assault (Charged)
220=?
229=Aerial shield breaker?
22a=?
22b=Aerial Dashing Assault
22c=?
22d=?
22e=?
22f=Aerial Dashing Assault (Charged)
230=?

And then the bottom three are landing lags for up specials like @ Vipermoon said. The ? are almost certainly related to the charged neutral specials (since they're all 2 frame reductions, 42 > 40), but most of them don't appear in the raw 1.1 dump, so I can't be sure: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/144/marth.html

Edit: Charged or aerial neutral specials.

Yeah I figured there would be charged this and that and aerial this and that but there are 16 (if I counted correctly) and you can only have 12 neutral Bs I suppose (6 for ground uncharged/charged, 6 for aerial).

I don't understand why Dancing Blade input charges aren't mentioned here? Oh and this debunks the idea that DB1 aerial is laggier since it's not there.

 

[drogoth232]

I don't understand why Dancing Blade input charges aren't mentioned here? Oh and this debunks the idea that DB1 aerial is laggier since it's not there.

Because the frames themselves weren't changed, only frames when you enter buttons.

 

[Solutionme]

So, aside frame data has anyone else had success forcing your opponents into tech roll situations with ease due to the reduced landing lag on all aerials? I've had some success to an extent and because the roll dodges got weaker I'm just having a much much easier time performing my reads without whiffing them. Just curious for some input on it.

 

[radiantshadow92]

tried the new db and simply put its amazing. its almost impossible to miss the complete combo if u want to go for it which wasnt the case before. there were times where the window felt to short before and my marth would stop mid combo when i had the opponent set up for more hits. obviously thats my fault but i think making it easier to combo is the best thing to come out of the patch for marth. i didnt really feel the landing lag changes when i played but atleast now i know sakurai is aware that marths landing lag was just terrible :DDDD

 

[Shaya]

DB1 input window going up 5 frames is a bummer, the rest of it is good.
It's now 32, when the move ends 33 in the air. In other words we don't have a buffer window on dolphin slashing or using other aerials I think (as attack inputs will register for it).

I'm guessing they either didn't think it through or they didn't like Lucina's spamming db1 nair fsmash on wifi

Can someone confirm what DB1 (grounded) end frame is now?

 

[A_Kae]

DB1 input window going up 5 frames is a bummer, the rest of it is good.
It's now 32, when the move ends 33 in the air. In other words we don't have a buffer window on dolphin slashing or using other aerials I think (as attack inputs will register for it).

I'm guessing they either didn't think it through or they didn't like Lucina's spamming db1 nair fsmash on wifi

Can someone confirm what DB1 (grounded) end frame is now?

Wait, shouldn't it be F35 that for the input window? Because of the frame speed multiplier?

 

[Shaya]

I hope not.

If that's right it would mean Aerial DB1 (which seemed like an obvious thing Sakurai was altering his game plan around with the loss of sh double aerials and db1 as a jab replacement on the ground) is now.... kinda worthless. You could... probably air dodge, jump or fast fall out of it as fast as you could before but any attack or special input would put it as just as laggy as forward air.

It would also explain you guys saying db1->aerial is harder/not possible to do anymore.
Possibly worth testing if jumping/dodging/fast falling does still work at frame 33...
OR if the game forces that jab window to "die" when the animation otherwise ends.

 

[Vipermoon]

I hope not.

If that's right it would mean Aerial DB1 (which seemed like an obvious thing Sakurai was altering his game plan around with the loss of sh double aerials and db1 as a jab replacement on the ground) is now.... kinda worthless. You could... probably air dodge, jump or fast fall out of it as fast as you could before but any attack or special input would put it as just as laggy as forward air.

It would also explain you guys saying db1->aerial is harder/not possible to do anymore.
Possibly worth testing if jumping/dodging/fast falling does still work at frame 33...
OR if the game forces that jab window to "die" when the animation otherwise ends.

I definitely think it's the former. I just spent a few minutes on this again. In slow motion zoomed in you can definitely tell the animation ends but I'm still able to input DB2 for what seems to only be a frame or two later.

But Sakurai's intentions are actually really cloudy because you can buffer aerials during any part of aerial dancing blade. So DB1 to Nair (I prefer SH AD to Nair lol) is just as easy as it was before.

In fact, here's something weird... since when did using the A button during grounded dancing blade NOT continue dancing blade? I thought the A button continues the combo (I'm not sure because I never used DB with the A button)? Well it doesn't right now, you can buffer/spam any A move you want, anytime, grounded or aerial.

 

[Shaya]

REALLY?

Attack button doesn't progress ANY dancing blade hits anymore?
Well well welll welll welll well.

All it did was nerf db1 to dolphin slash then... which was actually really good and I was getting into that.
****.
Sakurai been watching my for glory matches again

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay then... so it did used to do that. I'm actually glad it doesn't I always thought that was dumb.

 

[fox67890]

I don't think "attack" inputs ever progressed dancing blade iirc. I honestly want to say I'm 95% certain of this, but I don't want to be called out if I'm wrong.

I also feel like the only thing to worry about is aerial DB>DS, which can still be done the same way it was before, but the timing is a bit more strict.

 

[Vipermoon]

I so wish I had my 1.0.3 3DS right now.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think "attack" inputs ever progressed dancing blade iirc. I honestly want to say I'm 95% certain of this, but I don't want to be called out if I'm wrong.

I also feel like the only thing to worry about is aerial DB>DS, which can still be done the same way it was before, but the timing is a bit more strict.

Maybe you're right, lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thinking about it, I definitely remember some form of A button dancing blade at some point of the game (wii u even).

 

[A_Kae]

I don't think attack ever continued DB either, but I can't say that I would have noticed it much if it did.

Anyways, what's the new landing lag for up-specials? Is it 20/34/40 or 19/33/39?

 

[fox67890]

I'd really be surprised if that was the case (regarding attack inputs ever progressing DB). Maybe somebody can confirm it soon, but it doesn't really matter overall, since it certainly doesn't in this patch.

It may be kinda disrespectful to repost my thoughts on how dancing blade was changed, so I'll put them in a spoiler

Spoiler

The only thing this realistically changes is the timing to input another special move (which are Marth's dancing blade, dolphin slash, and counter) if you plan to stop dancing blade midway. Generally speaking, I don't think Marth's usually inputted any of these options after a canceled dancing blade (with the exception of aerial DB>DS for recovery), but If you want to, you still can. The timing is just a bit different/slightly more strict.

The timings for things like aerial DB> 1st nair or upair are still the same since inputting an "attack" input rather than a "special" input after aerial DB1 does not lead into the second hit of DB (unlike inputting Up+B for dolphin slash, or Down+B for counter). You'll just get whatever aerial you inputted.

So regarding dancing blade, nothing has really changed overall. The timings for some things are just a bit different.

I just wanted to say that the uair>dair spike combo that seemed very impractical before, now kinda feels a bit better. It's still not all that smooth, but it's easier to do now and can be done at more percents. If an opponents close to the ledge, going for aerial DB1>upair>dair spike may be worth it now. Just something to think about

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't think attack ever continued DB either, but I can't say that I would have noticed it much if it did.

Anyways, what's the new landing lag for up-specials? Is it 20/34/40 or 19/33/39?

The former. I don't know why the game files say that. Just another one of those weird reasons. I mean, we always had DS at 23, CS at 37, and DJ at 43. The game said it used to be 22, 36, 42 but we do know it's a 3 frame buff and that's all that matters.

 

[Shaya]

DB1 to Dolphin Slash as an aggressive/combo thing is good/important.

As it as a relatively reliable (and eventually combo'd) aerial kill confirm.
Now our frame 28 or later input window is now 33 later (i.e. no buffer).
Probably won't take long for me to get over this, but is it something that could lose me a tournament match under stress? Yep.

 

[Langston777]

man DB was already easy as **** to combo in this game anyway, what is nintendo thinking

 

[cerealkiller]

I checked the first post and it isn't there.

I noticed this: Utilt got damage nerf for tipper 11 ->9.

EDIT: seems to be a Sandbag glitch/bug, check below.

 

[A_Kae]

I checked the first post and it isn't there.

I noticed this: Utilt got damage nerf for tipper 11 ->9.

It's always done 9% on the tip.

 

[cerealkiller]

Hum, I'm pretty sure it didn't. Or at least I can 100% confirm it didn't in a particular situation: utilt tipper did 11 on the sandbag while waiting for the match to start with a friend.

 

[A_Kae]

Hum, I'm pretty sure it didn't. Or at least I can 100% confirm it didn't in a particular situation: utilt tipper did 11 on the sandbag while waiting for the match to start with a friend.

U-tilt
Frame 6- 8: 9% 50b/100g (KO@ 177%) 100° 1.25-Hitlag Slash
Frame 6- 8: 6% 50b/100g (KO@ 250%) 100° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Frame 6- 8: 5% 50b/100g (KO@ 257%) 361° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Frame 9-12: 9% 40b/100g (KO@ 188%) 85° 1.25-Hitlag Slash
Frame 9-12: 6% 40b/100g (KO@ 265%) 85° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Frame 9-12: 5% 40b/100g (KO@ 277%) 361° 0.7-Hitlag Slash
Max Damage: 9%

From 1.0.4

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Attack inputs never continued DB, SH aerial DB then I mash AAAAAA like mad and get Nair on the first frame, have done this since the game came out o.o; silly people~ Does everyone else wait exactly for the exact amount of frames before ADB into an aerial...? I guess the buffer window is nice but, come on

Also, I think the DB extra window is a buff since you can now use it to frame trap people more effectively. Land first hit of DB, pause, THEY SHIELD/ROLL? Stop and punish, NO SHIELD? Continue (Maybe) The second hit comes out fast so you get to react to some stuff. Sometimes you hit them in an awkward angle at low% and need to delay the next hit just a bit... Now you won't get killed because of accidental DS or SB.

 

[cerealkiller]

Well then what's going on? This may be irrelevant (and sound dumb) but I am 100% that on the sangbag online that tipper dealt 11, because I did it every time. Could they have forgotten to change the % values for that screen specifically in the previous pacthes?

 

[MOI-ARI]

Hum, I'm pretty sure it didn't. Or at least I can 100% confirm it didn't in a particular situation: utilt tipper did 11 on the sandbag while waiting for the match to start with a friend.

That explains. Yeah sandbags are weird, dont use them. xD

Like Samus' Charge Shot full charge SHOULD do 25% but on the Sandbag, does 28% for some reason. Im sure its the same dumb occurance for utilt.

 

[cerealkiller]

I'm glad then.

 

[Illuminado]

Thinking about it, I definitely remember some form of A button dancing blade at some point of the game (wii u even).

Definitely not in this iteration of the game. Melee, yes.

 

[Shaya]

Explaining dancing blade changes:

It's by all accounts a buff.

Their windows for the next strike increased by 5 frames. Now you have a move which is much closer to being able to pressure the opponent into worrying about whether you're going to strike again or stop.

Dancing Blade 1's input window ended frame 27 now it's 32. The move itself had an end frame of 42, but now is 40 (also buffed).

So in other words this move has gone from 15 frames of no input cooldown, to EIGHT.
It's significant QoL buff.

The "down side" is that with the game's buffer window of 10 frames and the input window before cooldown being less than that, your timing for inputting a special has to change.
In aerial DB1's case you can't really buffer a special at all.

If I'm remembering correctly, DB2 is roughly that same cooldown as DB1 is now. So we have "two" opportunities to have a REACTION SPEED TRAP on dancing blade now. Sweet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For those that want easy mode Marth, this is one step closer.

tl;dr Run at someone and hit forward B, then follow this option tree.

If they get hit, hit confirm into the rest.

If they roll, stop.

If they block, pause, then keep going. 90% of the people that play this game will get hit because they are spastic and just want to press buttons.

 

[Solutionme]

Explaining dancing blade changes:

It's by all accounts a buff.

Their windows for the next strike increased by 5 frames. Now you have a move which is much closer to being able to pressure the opponent into worrying about whether you're going to strike again or stop.

Dancing Blade 1's input window ended frame 27 now it's 32. The move itself had an end frame of 42, but now is 40 (also buffed).

So in other words this move has gone from 15 frames of no input cooldown, to EIGHT.
It's significant QoL buff.

The "down side" is that with the game's buffer window of 10 frames and the input window before cooldown being less than that, your timing for inputting a special has to change.
In aerial DB1's case you can't really buffer a special at all.

If I'm remembering correctly, DB2 is roughly that same cooldown as DB1 is now. So we have "two" opportunities to have a REACTION SPEED TRAP on dancing blade now. Sweet.

So if I'm reading this correctly that means we have more frames to input the next string with the B button, but we can use an A move after eight frames instead of 15 now? Also yeah as someone else stated A button attacks don't continue the DB string.

 

[Freelance Spy]

There are much harder things to time in smash than our new DB.

I think we should be grateful. As outraged as I was at first, I can't even be mad at what is clearly a good thing.

Moral of the story is first impressions suck. Especially if you pull an all nighter before you test the new patch.

 

[Solutionme]

There are much harder things to time in smash than our new DB.

I think we should be grateful. As outraged as I was at first, I can't even be mad at what is clearly a good thing.

Moral of the story is first impressions suck. Especially if you pull an all nighter before you test the new patch.

Same feeling we got about the loss of jab resetting with jab 1. The change was worth it though.

 

[Slickfate]

Thank you for this, Marth now has more combos due to the dair buff with less landing lag. :D

 

[Langston777]

Time to start dairing into the ground like a champ

 

[Slickfate]

We melee now

 

[Solutionme]

So can we say Marth is now tourney worthy? Also by how much?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean, you lose to Sheik, ZSS and Diddy.

Thats not a good look, you feel me dawg?