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Mario's DownB Solved? The Wisdom of the Blue Shock Waves!

kirbykid

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What I’m about to report on probably contains spoilers. So if you don’t want anything ruined for yourself (if that’s the kind of person you are [not that there’s anything wrong with that]) then stop reading now. There is wisdom in the screen shots. We must examine them now!




If we ignore that KrazyKid who proclaimed “interchangable B Moves” in a certain thread this morning, then there can only be a few (conceivable) possibilities as to which “button home” the Mario Tornado will belong.
<ol>
<li> Down B in the air only</li>
<li>Down A in the air only</li>
</ol>
Let’s think about this. As we’ve seen in the Nintendo World 2006 video, this move hovers Mario in the air. A moves typically don’t have gravity defying effects like this. Also, if you can still “helicopter” upwards, isn’t that the opposite of a down A air move, especially if the hit boxes are on Mario’s fist and not his feet? Something seems off.

Regardless if it’s an A move or a B move (or something else), here’s good evidence that Mario can still move upward with this move.

<img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/mario_070906d-l1.jpg" alt="The Blue Waves" height="300" width="364" />

As you can see there are two small blue shock waves moving up from the contact point on both Zelda and Kirby.

I think these shock waves are part of a way to visually display the effects of havok, DI, and the momentum of moves/attacks. This is a step in the right direction to achieving perfect game design. Nobody wants to memorize the invisible calculations of a game in order to play it. There are fighters like this, and even the best players hate the game’s guts. Just ask Changsta how he feels about the Naruto figher. Apparently it’s all about wack-a-doodle invisible-invincible-ungrabable-hit-box-frame-cancels. When a game features too many invisible aspects like that, it moves away from being a “game” and closer to being a representation of “abstract concepts.” That is not a good direction to be in unless you want to play in a Kandinski Improvisation painting.

<img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kandinski.jpg" alt="Kandinki" />

Sakurai would never expect a little kid playing Brawl to understand how collisions and the momentum of moving bodies work. But if he shows it with a neat blue shock wave, the kid will be able to better discern the games mechanics. After all, we did. I remember teaching my friend Travis how to play smash when I barely knew anything about the game (or game design for that matter). I told him that when you land from a jump without doing an attack, the dust cloud that’s kicked up is “spiky.” This means you can immediately do something else after landing. If the cloud is “poofy” (like when landing from a B moves) then you can’t do something right away: lag. From such simple visual cues, I was able to begin to make sense of the extremely complex game of Melee.

It’s clear to see that these shock waves correspond to the direction that the energy from an attack moves. Notice all the angles.

<img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/diddykong_070822d-l.jpg" alt="diddy" height="236" width="287" /> <img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/ike_070807d-l.jpg" alt="Samus and Ike" height="235" width="286" />

<img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/pokemon_trainer_070829c-l.jpg" alt="seeds" height="237" width="291" /> <img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/peach_070817c-l.jpg" alt="Peach " height="234" width="285" />
<p align="left">Even in these’s pictures where it’s a little harder to spot! Once you start seeing the waves, it all becomes clear.</p>
<img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/metaknight_070905c-l1.jpg" alt="kirby good night" height="236" width="288" /> <img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/zerosuit_samus_070719c-l.jpg" alt="zamus" height="239" width="291" />

It appears the Kirby and Metaknight have clashed swords in mid air. There’s a faint white bubble coming out of Metaknight’s head. It travels off the screen shot and back around for a complete circle. If you find the center of that circle, you’ll have found where the two swords met. This is new to Smash!

What if these shock waves delve deeper? What if the deeper blue color they contained, the more powerful the hit/the less you can DI the hit? The game will start to make a lot more sense a lot more quickly if elements like that were in place.
Keep your eyes peeled for future screen shots.
 
Undrdog

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Though it's a long shot, isn't it conceivable that they are finally utilizing the Y Button? Perhaps there's a whole new strew of moves? I doubt it though. Odds are it can only been done in the air. Which would be a shame for Luigi.

Of course if he had his Vacuum Cleaner in Brawl to counter Mario's Water Canon... lol
 
ChRed2AKrisp

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WAIT OH SNAP! It is an aerial b move, sakurai said earlier to make sure to try special moves in the air, this is probably an example of this.
 
Banks

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good **** makes sense, i thought before that maybe there were vastly differeent b-tilt moves, but this seems more logical
 
Caleb Wolfbrand

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This is really interesting. I noticed an odd blue wave in one of the pics for the Fire Emblem stage. The third picture on that update, there is this BIG wave like those... Interesting
 
T

_the_sandman_

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So far all of the screens/vids with the tornado were in the air. While the FLUDD was always on the ground. I think ChRed2AKrisp nailed it.

As for the shockwaves, I hope they tone down DI a little bit. I mean the computer players really abused that function. Bowser couldn't even use his flames without them crawling through.
 
Zauron

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An interesting theory but the basis behind it is still flawed. The trailer did NOT show the Tornado defying gravity any more than any other multi-hit mid-air A move, including Mario's old DAir, does.

Watch the trailer closely. You'll see that Mario's overall trajectory does NOT change from the jump he executed to perform the move. In fact at the end of the Tornado he has fallen to below the height of his jump. The only "hovering" here is the hit lag that all moves have for dramatic effect.

Try this in Melee. Using Mario, throw a light or damaged enemy up into the air. Jump, and, as soon as you lift into the air, immediately press Down on your C-Stick. Mario will perform his DAir and, if timed right, will drill into the enemy you threw up. Exactly like in the trailer, he will appear to "hover" for a while while the drill move causes hit lag for each hit, and like in the trailer, he will be moving upwards for most of the move since you started it on the way up, then begin to fall near the end of it. The only difference is the Tornado lasts longer, has longer hit lag thus the hovering is longer, and ends in that double-punch that sends opponents away.

For an example of this, check this video at 15 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiSoNcI3YA4 You'll notice the DAir Mario uses behaves just like the Tornado in the trailer, except in the trailer the hit lag is longer and it does the punch that sends them away at the end.

There is thus no evidence that Mario's new Tornado gives him any special hovering or rising height like the old one, in the only instance we've seen it used it behaves the same as any other multi-hit airial A attack.

And the shockwaves don't go against the DAir conclusion either. Like other DAir's, such as Link's and Luigi's and several others, Mario's sends opponents upwards, not down. His previous DAir sends opponents upwards, and so does his Tornado. The blue shockwaves show that the enemies he is hitting are going to move upwards. This has no bearing on how Mario himself is going to move.

The blue shockwaves is a nice touch that you noticed, but it in no way disproves the theory that Mario's Tornado is now his DAir, especially since Sakurai himself said it was now a normal move (in his unique way of speaking).
 
O D I N

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A note on the Mario Tornado:

Are you familiar with the PBP? The Perfect Button Press?

After executing the move in melee (down+B), hitting B rapidly makes Mario 'rise', or hover, rather than drop. This works for Mario and Doc.

This technique isn't made appearant in trailer two though.


Also, in that vid; I believe (don't hold me to this) he appeared to "hover" because he performed the d-air before the peak of his jump.
 
H

h1roshi

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very good logic and i dont really see and flaws behind it. evidence does back up the notion that the tornado will send you upwards. like some one earlier mentioned, this could be an aerial b move, which would add more depth to aerial combat, which is what sakurai was looking for...peace

-hiroshi
 
smashplayer16

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What about the y button. Am I the only one who thinks that. I mean because who uses the y button for jump anyways. If you do it they should have it where you could change it to the x button. Its like another B button but different.
Problem solved?
 
kirbykid

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Zauron said:
An interesting theory but the basis behind it is still flawed. The trailer did NOT show the Tornado defying gravity any more than any other multi-hit mid-air A move, including Mario's old DAir, does.

Watch the trailer closely. You'll see that Mario's overall trajectory does NOT change from the jump he executed to perform the move. In fact at the end of the Tornado he has fallen to below the height of his jump. The only "hovering" here is the hit lag that all moves have for dramatic effect.

Try this in Melee. Using Mario, throw a light or damaged enemy up into the air. Jump, and, as soon as you lift into the air, immediately press Down on your C-Stick. Mario will perform his DAir and, if timed right, will drill into the enemy you threw up. Exactly like in the trailer, he will appear to "hover" for a while while the drill move causes hit lag for each hit, and like in the trailer, he will be moving upwards for most of the move since you started it on the way up, then begin to fall near the end of it. The only difference is the Tornado lasts longer, has longer hit lag thus the hovering is longer, and ends in that double-punch that sends opponents away.

For an example of this, check this video at 15 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiSoNcI3YA4 You'll notice the DAir Mario uses behaves just like the Tornado in the trailer, except in the trailer the hit lag is longer and it does the punch that sends them away at the end.

There is thus no evidence that Mario's new Tornado gives him any special hovering or rising height like the old one, in the only instance we've seen it used it behaves the same as any other multi-hit airial A attack.

And the shockwaves don't go against the DAir conclusion either. Like other DAir's, such as Link's and Luigi's and several others, Mario's sends opponents upwards, not down. His previous DAir sends opponents upwards, and so does his Tornado. The blue shockwaves show that the enemies he is hitting are going to move upwards. This has no bearing on how Mario himself is going to move.

The blue shockwaves is a nice touch that you noticed, but it in no way disproves the theory that Mario's Tornado is now his DAir, especially since Sakurai himself said it was now a normal move (in his unique way of speaking).
Click to expand...
First of all, I want to commend you for writing so much and even doing some research.

But I have to say, Mario DOES in fact get some new kind of hovering elevation. I looked even more closely to the video and as you can see, the timing for Mario's jumps are clearly defined in the scene before he beats up link. Take that timing and look at what happens in the Link portion.

It's clear to see that mario jumps and is nearly at the apex of his jump. THEN he uses the tornado which (if you look extremely close) makes Mario sharply rise again. He stays at that EXACT altitude until the last hit, and then he falls STRAIGHT DOWN. In your Gimpyfish video example, Mario still had some forward momentum from the jump. Clearly Brawl Mario's hovering stops the momentum.

O D I N said:
Also, in that vid; I believe (don't hold me to this) he appeared to "hover" because he performed the d-air before the peak of his jump.
Click to expand...
*nods*

smashplayer16 said:
What about the y button. Am I the only one who thinks that. I mean because who uses the y button for jump anyways. If you do it they should have it where you could change it to the x button. Its like another B button but different.
Problem solved?
Click to expand...
Sorry, but adding Y button moves has a .001 percent chance of happening. Smash is complex through its simplicity. This means there's no need to add additional buttons with functions on top of what we already have. In other words, it's better to work with what we have. We don't need a footstool jump button. Just the jump button.

Likewise, there are 4 controllers this time around. Some haves less buttons. Some have more. Ultimately, adding a button function like Y would be pushing things.
 
Zauron

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kirbykid said:
First of all, I want to commend you for writing so much and even doing some research.

But I have to say, Mario DOES in fact get some new kind of hovering elevation. I looked even more closely to the video and as you can see, the timing for Mario's jumps are clearly defined in the scene before he beats up link. Take that timing and look at what happens in the Link portion.

It's clear to see that mario jumps and is nearly at the apex of his jump. THEN he uses the tornado which (if you look extremely close) makes Mario sharply rise again. He stays at that EXACT altitude until the last hit, and then he falls STRAIGHT DOWN. In your Gimpyfish video example, Mario still had some forward momentum from the jump. Clearly Brawl Mario's hovering stops the momentum.



*nods*



Sorry, but adding Y button moves has a .001 percent chance of happening. Smash is complex through its simplicity. This means there's no need to add additional buttons with functions on top of what we already have. In other words, it's better to work with what we have. We don't need a footstool jump button. Just the jump button.

Likewise, there are 4 controllers this time around. Some haves less buttons. Some have more. Ultimately, adding a button function like Y would be pushing things.
Click to expand...
I watched the sequence frame-by-frame and do not see any "sharp rise" beyond the model animation itself and the hit stun reaction. The forward momentum changes I see also do not seem to be anything beyond standard DI, especially considering how long he is in the move animation. You will notice during the spin he does not really change height much at all (being that he is at the apex of the jump and every frame of the animation pauses him again for another hit) but he starts falling BEFORE the animation is complete. He also has continued to move to the right slowly, during it, as that was the direction of his original jump.

In any case, I can see how the one clip we have to go on could be interpreted either way, but I do not believe there is enough evidence to firmly say that it is definitely a B move. And we can't confidently say that as an A move it won't affect his trajectory at all (particularly when it hits something). I will refer you to Link's DAir, which causes him to bounce when he hits something, unlike any other air A moves. Who's to say this particular DAir doesn't also have special physics properties? (Although I still doubt it will retain the ability to press the button rapidly to go up higher, and the little rise you see obviously is not big enough to support that the rapid-hitting-B feature is still there.)

However, my point is that there is no conclusive evidence for why the Tornado must still be a B move, yet there is STRONG evidence that it is an A move. The biggest evidence being Sakurai's own comment. If you look through his past comments, he OFTEN states facts in the form of a question. Him saying "Is it a normal attack?!" means it most likely is, or why even say that?

Finally, the very argument you make here against it being the Y button supports the DAir theory - simplicity. Smash Bros is founded on the concept of being simple and easy to understand while still having plenty of depth below the surface. All moves in Smash Bros are generally easy to perform, do something that makes sense for the controls used, and its all about the timing and position you use them in! This is the reason I believe that Wavedashing will be, instead of removed, made easy to do and accessible to everyone, as it would better match the vision of Smash Bros (my theory is supported by the super-fast dodges shown in the second trailer, which I believe is the solution to allow Wavedash-like manueverability that's easy for anyone to do).

With that in mind, having a Down+B that is completely different on the ground than in the air goes against that philosophy. It is simpler and easier to understand that B moves are either exactly the same in the air or on the ground, or the differences are only to accomodate the fact that it is in the air or not (Falcon's Down+B is different on the ground or in the air, but it is still a Falcon Kick, Kirby's Side+B is different but it is still a Hammer swing, etc.) I think it would be odd and confusing to have two extremely different moves with nothing in common, particularly with one using an accessory and one not, with the same input. It would make far more sense to move it to an A move, perhaps one with special properties like Link's DAir, since the Tornado isn't really all that "special" for a special move anyway (particularly if the "press rapidly to rise high" factor is removed from it). This also frees up FLUDD to be used in mid-air, adding more versatility to Mario.

(On a side note, it couldn't be the Y button anyway, as there is not enough buttons on the sideways Wii remote configuration to allow a third attack button with everything else!)
 
kirbykid

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Zauron said:
I watched the sequence frame-by-frame and do not see any "sharp rise" beyond the model animation itself and the hit stun reaction. The forward momentum changes I see also do not seem to be anything beyond standard DI, especially considering how long he is in the move animation. You will notice during the spin he does not really change height much at all (being that he is at the apex of the jump and every frame of the animation pauses him again for another hit) but he starts falling BEFORE the animation is complete. He also has continued to move to the right slowly, during it, as that was the direction of his original jump.

In any case, I can see how the one clip we have to go on could be interpreted either way, but I do not believe there is enough evidence to firmly say that it is definitely a B move. And we can't confidently say that as an A move it won't affect his trajectory at all (particularly when it hits something). I will refer you to Link's DAir, which causes him to bounce when he hits something, unlike any other air A moves. Who's to say this particular DAir doesn't also has special physics properties? (Although I still doubt it will retain the ability to press the button rapidly to go up higher, and the little rise you see obviously is not big enough to support that the rapid-hitting-B feature is still there.)

However, my point is that there is no conclusive evidence for why the Tornado must still be a B move, yet there IS evidence that it is an A move. The biggest evidence being Sakurai's own comment. If you look through his past comments, he OFTEN states facts in the form of a question. Him saying "Is it a normal attack?!" means it most likely is, or why even say that?

Finally, the very argument you make here against it being the Y button supports the DAir theory - simplicity. Smash Bros is founded on the concept of simple and easy to understand while still having plenty of depth below the surface. All moves in Smash Bros are generally easy to perform, do something that makes sense for the controls used, and its all about the timing and position you use them in! This is the reason I believe that Wavedashing will be, instead of removed, made easy to do and accessible to everyone, as it would better match the vision of Smash Bros (my theory is supported by the super-fast dodges shown in the second trailer, which I believe is the solution to allow Wavedash-like manueverability that's easy for anyone to do).

With that in mind, having a Down+B that is completely different on the ground than in the air goes against that philosophy. It is simpler and easier to understand that B moves are either been exactly the same in the air or on the ground, or the differences are only to accomodate the fact that it is in the air or not (Falcon's Down+B is different on the ground or in the air, but it is still a Falcon Kick, Kirby's Side+B is different but it is still a Hammer swing, etc.) I think it would be odd and confusing to have two extremely different moves with nothing in common, particularly with one using an accessory and one not, with the same input. It would make far more sense to move it to an A move, perhaps one with special properties like Link's DAir, since the Tornado isn't really all that "special" for a special move anyway (particularly if the "press rapidly to rise high" factor is removed from it).

(On a side note, it couldn't be the Y button anyway, as there is not enough buttons on the sideways Wii remote configuration to allow a third attack button with everything else!)
Click to expand...
You're still giving way too much stun time for hits. The purpose of the slight pause is for effect and to help players "feel" the hits so they can better keep up with the action on the screen. It's slight.

He doesn't change height cause he's hovering. And Mario doesn't fall before the move is over. If you'll remember, Mario draws his head down for the final hit of the animation and then punches. This makes Mario appear to be falling but he is not.

I thought that the tornado is now an A move. I'm not arguing that it's a B move.

And moves that do different things in the air and on the ground DOESN'T go against the simple philosophy. What does the A button do afterall..... tilts, smashes, air attacks, and grabs. This is what smash has always been like. It doesn't matter if it's an A move, or potentially a B move.

You're right about not having enough evidence.


MetaKnight'sSword said:
cause theirs going to be too many therioes....way too many arguments about whose right or wrong as if they kno it is or isnt but the thing...NO ONE KNOWS (cept for Sakurai) and the only way for us to kno is to get the game, play it and find out, or if Sakurai makes an update about this ....
Click to expand...
What is there always the guy that comes in and tries to ruin other people's fun? :mad:

Clearly Sakurai knows all and we don't. But recognizing patterns, bouncing around theories, and speculating makes us better thinkers in the end.

Join or Die. :grin:
 
M

MetaKnight'sSword

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kirbykid said:
What is there always the guy that comes in and tries to ruin other people's fun? :mad:

Clearly Sakurai knows all and we don't. But recognizing patterns, bouncing around theories, and speculating makes us better thinkers in the end.

Join or Die. :grin:
Click to expand...
Im not Im just saying LOL

and for the join or die thing, only one man can say that LOL (^^)v
 
Zauron

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kirbykid said:
You're still giving way too much stun time for hits. The purpose of the slight pause is for effect and to help players "feel" the hits so they can better keep up with the action on the screen. It's slight.

He doesn't change height cause he's hovering. And Mario doesn't fall before the move is over. If you'll remember, Mario draws his head down for the final hit of the animation and then punches. This makes Mario appear to be falling but he is not.

I thought that the tornado is now an A move. I'm not arguing that it's a B move.

And moves that do different things in the air and on the ground DOESN'T go against the simple philosophy. What does the A button do afterall..... tilts, smashes, air attacks, and grabs. This is what smash has always been like. It doesn't matter if it's an A move, or potentially a B move.

You're right about not having enough evidence.




What is there always the guy that comes in and tries to ruin other people's fun? :mad:

Clearly Sakurai knows all and we don't. But recognizing patterns, bouncing around theories, and speculating makes us better thinkers in the end.

Join or Die. :grin:
Click to expand...
Sorry, I got off track in the discussion. I was arguing in another thread about the reasons why it was likely an A move, not a B move, and deviated from the true meaning of this thread. My apologies! I stand by my arguments for why it is NOT a B move, but that's not really what was under discussion here.

Anyway, I'm still not convinced that the shock waves mean Mario himself moves upwards. They clearly indicate that the enemy being hit moves upwards, but that is not sufficient proof to me that the attacker (Mario) also moves in that direction. I concede that the move may give him slight hovering, perhaps only when actually hitting something though (but to those from the other argument, that is still not evidence that it's a B move, see my previous example of Link's DAir).

In any case, the discovery of the blue shock waves IS pretty nifty. Kudos for that! I'll have to pay closer attention to it in future screenshots.
 
Homelessvagrant

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I've tried to use the control stick but couldn't. I just can't seem to get the hang of it. plus a jump button just makes more sense than jump stick.

Alas brawl has constimizing controls. Thre's something for everybody.
 
D

Dazza!

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wait, on the website, didn't it say something about the tornado being a special move as in neutral B? then a fireball could be the forward+b. We've seen four b moves for him, up b is obvious, down b is comfirmed, so either tornado could be forward and b or B, and fireball could be forward and b or B
 
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