Guide Mario matchup thread

[Xeze]

Fox goes even with Mario. I have a very good Fox player in my scene and whenever we play, the match is always well balanced.

Marios pros on Fox:
- can combo him well due to Fox being a fastfaller
- Fox cannot go offstage that easily
- u-smash and f-smash get KOs early due to Fox's weight
- good edgeguards and ledge trumps, due to Fox's predictable recovery

Fox's pros on Mario:
- can juggle Mario efficiently
- KO confirms in d-air->u-smash or soft nair -> u-smash.
- d-smash near the ledge is a semi-spike on Mario
- faster than Mario

I have to say that this is one of my favorite MUs. Fast paced with no character having a significant advantage over the other.

 

[Underhill]

I'll do Fox, first then work on Falco when I have more than enough info on the MU.

vs: Even against each other. When you grab Fox at zero or 10%, up throw and do not down throw combo right away because of his falling speed and he can get out of it by shielding. When he's at 15% or below 30%, you can start the up-tile combos after down throw and into up-airs as well. Fox is combo-food because of his falling speed. Don't cape lasers because it won't help you so just jump. Fox is not easy to punish because of his superior ground speed, lagless aerials, ground game, and SHs, but Mario is also not easy to punish either. Fox can jiggle better because of his up-smash for baiting, catching and punishing, running speed, Short hops, and up-airs which are disjointed and strong so Mario's low range aerials won't work. Both can ko each other, but since Fox is light and has no kills throws, I think Mario wins in that area, slighty. Fox's down-b can deal with camping fireballs, but can be baited for a punish if he overuse it. Up-smash as a anti-air move if needed, but be careful using it because Fox can bait if he space away his aerials from Mario's range. Fox can also combo Mario, but Mario can do it better because of Fox's falling speed, n-air and up-b for combo breaking, as long ax you don't overuse them and get baited. Both of them can approach each other with SH aerials, projectiles, running speed, tom hawks, pivots, and fox & dance trots. Mario wins at edgdguarding because of Fox's predictable recovery, fireballs to cause errors, cape, fludd, n-air, and back-air. Plus, Fox's side b can be read with a up smash, depending on the timing and distance. Fox can't gimp Mario's recovery easily due to his falling speed, but he can ledge guard Mario with his down-smash for a kill, and down-tile.

Well the MU is even between those two. Stages, they're ok against each other. Although, Duck Hunt can benefit Fox because of space to run around, camp with lasers, blastzones for him to longer, and the wall like below the ledge can save him since he can't get stage spike for it and wall jump for mix up. Mario can use the wall jump as well.

 

[Lacklustre]

I agree that Mario pretty much goes even with Fox. Both can punish one another hard, Mario needs to be wary of utilt strings and frame traps. Fox will often bait the airdodge with an uair, then fastfall and trap you with utilt, leading to a repeat of the same situation. It's better to take the uair if it's guaranteed (at mid %) or use either rising- or fastfalling airdodge to try to avoid the frame trap.
Mario has a moderately difficult time edge guarding a competent Fox, as they will illusion to ledge (which can of course be snagged with a well timed dsmash, but committing to it and missing will result in getting punished by uair). Most of the time they'll recover low and tech your bair or up-b, I recommend going for the up-b as it's harder to tech. Better then to wait on stage and claim centerstage if no superb edge guarding opportunity presents itself. When Fox tries to get back on stage nair is good at low % as it will eat all recovery options if read and spaced correctly.

In Neutral you should be aiming to get the grab as always, which previous posters have detailed well. Uthrow at low % & dthrow at higher. Space with bairs for some safety, also nair can be handy at higher % where it knocks down. Remeber that late dashattack from Fox cannot be punished with any non native oos options, and even then it's safe if you don't get the perfect shield. If they misspace it however you just let it rip with the usmash oos. Ally will lead the way!

At kill %, it all boils down to spamming usmash in neutral, just like every other MU. Just kidding ... not really. But don't be predictable with usmash, as it can be punished by Fox's usmash and even pp utilt (atleast I get punished by it, but I might be too greedy with my followups ...) Camping in shield by ledge can be good too, and getting the backthrow, as fox doesn't kill from grabs, so shielding in general is great when you're at kill %.

Oh, and remember to SDI Fox's Dair to avoid getting set up for Usmash.

Here's a video where I don't get destroyed by Fox:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjuoLlJa44

 

[miniada]

will be rediscussed. Discuss

 

[RMF]

As is my co-main, I really want to see how this discussion will develop.
I'd say that the MU is 65:35 or even 70:30 in favor, his usmash can deny lucario's ASC, Mario and can combo him well with great aerial speed and it's really tough to escape.
Mario's cape can reflect Extreme Speed, Aura Sphere and Force Palm flame, making everything even harder.


I only told the basics, i'm not very experient in this game yet, correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Lyserdon]

Hey, popping in from the Charizard boards to offer our discussions and my own observations. Here's our Mario discussion thread:

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-mario.417712/

I think Mario has a slight advantage over Charizard. Charizard is decent at walling him out and pressuring his recovery, he hs rocksmash to help get out of combos (I'm consistently able to get a full rocksmash hit in if Mario goes for more than one or two utilts after a dthrow), and he kills Mario much earlier than Mario kills him.

But on the other hand, Mario still combos Charizard hard and his quick aerials and better mobility are dangerous for Charizard if Mario gets him in the air. I don't see a lot of Marios cape Flare Blitz but I always recover low with Fly against a cape happy plumber. Fair spikes seem pretty effective against Charizard too and can end a stock much earlier than most Zard players are expecting to live.

Edit: I'd say 55:45 Mario's favor. Maybe 60:40.

 

[miniada]

IMO
50:50.both characters can combo each other well. Pikachu is hard to edgeguard since he can mix up quick attack. Both aren't the best at killing but mario has better kill power.However while pikachu is hard to edgeguard cape can be useful. Pikachu's Up throw to down b won't work because of cape so Pikachu's main kill option becomes null and void.
55:45 charizard outranges mario and has more kill power. However mario can combo him to hell and back with his aerials. He has fludd to edgeguard him. Up smash ruins all of charizards landing options. Charizard can't use his down throw to juggle mario since he can DI, nair, and upb.
50:50 this mu is weird. Mario can't combo this guy at all due to how low he reaches to the ground and his counter and his side b. However greninja can't combo mario due to his nair. Both edgeguard each other decently. Greninja has his up b to push away marios up b. Greninjas upb leaves himself open so he can do whatever but that can be punished so I suggest sticking to cspe. Greninja has more range and kill power than mario. Mario has up smash to ruin his landing. He can cape water shuriken. So yeah a weird even mu.
55:45 mario can wall her out with his aerials and space her out with bair. He has better ko power, damage output, combo breakers, combo abality,. Has up smash to ruin het landing. However the jiggl can combo her and edgeguard him a good puff would stay in the air both have good air games but mario can kill with his aerials. Jigglypuff only has rest to kill but that can be easily punished.
60:40 mario can combo lucario to hell and back.can edgeguard him with caoe. Can reflect aura sphere and force palm flame. His up smash ruins his landing and asc(forgot what that stands for). Mario has better frame data and mobility. So he can punish lucarios attacks. Once mario gets in on Lucario he is not getting out.
65:35 mario can expose his two main weaknesses. Being big and light. He can combo him and since he's floaty combos that shouldn't work will work. He has up smash to kill him and stop his landing. His moves are laggy and easy for mario to punish. Mario has fludd and cape to edgegaurd him.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm putting Mario v Puff as 55:45 maybe 60:40. You can literally spam usmash as she approaches, and she doesnt have much she can do except dash attack. Mario does really well as spacing her out, and has a projectile that cant be reliably beaten by her jab since it skips on the ground. Puff doesn't have to work too hard to gimp mario, but has to work really hard in the neutral.

miniada you cant cape pika's upthrow down b, if that was a thing you could just air dodge it. It's a combo lol

 

[EvilPinkamina]

VS Zard: Dthrow > utilt > mario shenanagins. Don't get rock smashed. Don't try to up smash zard's landing or he'll rock smash you. Or Nair you. 55:45 mario favor or 50:50. Zard can get good dthrow combos bc mario isn't anything special in terms of weight. Mix up DI when your opponent down throw to not get rekt by zard's powerful arsenal.

 

[iVoltage]

IMO
50:50.both characters can combo each other well. Pikachu is hard to edgeguard since he can mix up quick attack. Both aren't the best at killing but mario has better kill power.However while pikachu is hard to edgeguard cape can be useful. Pikachu's Up throw to down b won't work because of cape so Pikachu's main kill option becomes null and void.
55:45 charizard outranges mario and has more kill power. However mario can combo him to hell and back with his aerials. He has fludd to edgeguard him. Up smash ruins all of charizards landing options. Charizard can't use his down throw to juggle mario since he can DI, nair, and upb.
50:50 this mu is weird. Mario can't combo this guy at all due to how low he reaches to the ground and his counter and his side b. However greninja can't combo mario due to his nair. Both edgeguard each other decently. Greninja has his up b to push away marios up b. Greninjas upb leaves himself open so he can do whatever but that can be punished so I suggest sticking to cspe. Greninja has more range and kill power than mario. Mario has up smash to ruin his landing. He can cape water shuriken. So yeah a weird even mu.
55:45 mario can wall her out with his aerials and space her out with bair. He has better ko power, damage output, combo breakers, combo abality,. Has up smash to ruin het landing. However the jiggl can combo her and edgeguard him a good puff would stay in the air both have good air games but mario can kill with his aerials. Jigglypuff only has rest to kill but that can be easily punished.
60:40 mario can combo lucario to hell and back.can edgeguard him with caoe. Can reflect aura sphere and force palm flame. His up smash ruins his landing and asc(forgot what that stands for). Mario has better frame data and mobility. So he can punish lucarios attacks. Once mario gets in on Lucario he is not getting out.
65:35 mario can expose his two main weaknesses. Being big and light. He can combo him and since he's floaty combos that shouldn't work will work. He has up smash to kill him and stop his landing. His moves are laggy and easy for mario to punish. Mario has fludd and cape to edgegaurd him.

You cant cape pikachus thunder while in hitstun from throws lol.

I main pika and mario. I think this is 55:45 in marios favor. Mario can stop pikas aproaches with ease because upsmash is hard to work around. Mario gets combod but if you play safe pikachu will not kill you easily. Mario on the other hand kills alot easier. Cape makes tjolt invallid and you can be gimped by it if you arent careful and get hit by fludd and dont snap to the ledge. Im pretty sure you can nair out of some juggles but not at low percents.

 

[Empire~]

35:65 / 40:60

asc stands for aura sphere charge, one of lucario's main approach options when his aura gets going.

At least mario doesn't have a kill setup, so we are able to stay alive for a while if you avoid your smash attacks (especially upsmash) and bthrow.

 

[Underhill]

vs: Alright, I main both and faced both Mario and Pikachu players so here we go.
Best to start with Up throw if you grab him he's at 0 to 10% before down thorw combing him to up-tiles because he can n-air out of it. Pikachu can also combo Mario as well. Mario's combo breaking moves with n-air and up-b are better due to better start up, but don't overuse them. Jiggle game goes to Mario. While Pikachu has ground mobility to keep up with Mario landings(unless he has enough space to b-air him to land safe even if he shields) with mix ups such as up-airs, up smash, grab, dash attack, and f-airs, Mario can also punish Pikachu landings of his own as well with mix ups such as up-airs, dash attack, grabs and up-smash, thanks to his good ground speed and Pikachu's light and floaty. That's unless he's almost close to the ground to QA out of Jiggling and pressure, but you can read it though with a Up smash or anything to beat QA. Up smash not only as a jiggle move, but also an anti air move(Pikachu d-air can trade unless you timed Mario's head right to hit him without trading). Pikachu's jolts are better than Mario's fireballs since they have less than end lag than his so don't overuse for him to perfect shield and punish you. Cape is useful against his jolts, but be careful not to overuse for him to bait and punish you. Both have low range so be careful of Pikachu's down tile because not only it can out space you, but also may trip you as well. Use your down tile against him as well since it has decent range to even start up a combo. B-air beats Pikachu's aerials and he can't trade. Watch out for f-airs because Pikachu's can out-range Mario's n-air. While Pikachu isn't easy to punish, Mario can't be punished easily, either. Mario's appoarches are decent with mix ups such as pivot movement, dash attack, SH aerials, and fireballs, but Pikachu's appoarches are better than your, thanks to QAs, SH f-airs, pivot movement, and jolts for mix ups. Edgeguarding game belongs to Pikachu since he's difficult to gimp and he can edgeguard Mario with aerials such as b-air for a stage spike or kill, down air for a kill if he reads, n-air as well, and f-air. However, he can't challenge the up-b and can't risk gimping him with thunder because of the cape. Not only Mario can use cape and fludd to pressure him off-stage and put him in a bad position, but also read QAs with up-smash and b-air, n-air, cape, and fludd. Ledge-guarding goes to Pikachu. He can't get ledgeguarded easily, thanks to QA, but he can get ledge trump though with a b-air. Pikachu's ledge punishes are down-smash, down tiles, forward smash, and up tiles so be careful if you grab the ledge twice. If you read the Skull bash, you can cape, fludd, and even f-air Mario's killing potential is better than Pikachu's, especially with rage because Mario can live longer, Pikachu is light and can die early; Especially from a sweetspot forward smash.
Results: Even for both of them. 0 or 50:50.

 

[isaiah :)]

well let's put it this way guys, mario has the advantage in neutral no matter what. however, pikachu has a bigger advantage when edge guarding/offstage guarding mario then mario does edge gaurding/offstage guarding pikachu. this MU can be a 50:50 if pikachu can consistently keep mario at the edge, however if pikachu lets mario play neutral most of the game, it will be in mario's favor (not considering player skill because a more skillful pikachu player can out player an average mario player any day) over all mario win's neutral a little more often then pikachu. however win pikachu wins neutral he can take it farther then mario. make sense ? 50:50 or 45:55 mario's favor because winning neutral is way more important then edge guarding especially when you're up smash is an anti air move and can kill pika early on most neutral stage's via low ceiling or platform assist.

 

[Steam]

Mario vs luc is probably 65-35. Cape every projectile and challenge everything luc does in the air with upsmash and you force luc to basically rely on his boxing which is bad. Only difficulty Mario has is with killing and even then its worse for lucario who in theory should not be able to kill Mario ever. Stupid dumb character and stupid dumb matchup

 

[A2ZOMG]

Out of those matchups Charizard imo is the hardest. Charizard wins 55/45 against Mario. In spite of all of Charizard's design problems, I believe he actually exploits Mario fairly reliably.

Charizard is basically if Mac was a heavy weight, with less emphasis on frame trapping with pokes but greater emphasis on a strong grab game and having good survivability. He has insane run speed, good autocancel N-air, and generally superior ground game are really really hard to answer, and unlike Mac he's not easily gimped as Mario generally can't edgeguard Charizard's Up-B reasonably. His landing options do suck, but that's the only thing Mario really has in that matchup. In general though I believe a good Charizard has the advantage in neutral, and especially on platform stages he doesn't need to work hard for the kill when his U-throw is so strong. I also wouldn't charge Smashes against a good Zard generally speaking given Rock Smash beats that pretty handily.

If you can get the stock lead vs Charizard it's kinda viable to air camp him on platform stages because he's actually pretty bad at captializing in the air, but picking platform stages is generally not worth it due to U-throw kills.

Vs Lucario is annoying when Rage Force Palm command grab and B-air are things. Also Mario does not have an easy way to kill Lucario for rolling backwards. Don't think Mario counters Lucario by any means even if technically he wins.

Dunno much about Pikachu, just gonna say Mario actually has a really hard time punishing Pikachu D-tilt and you can't really fish for kills vs Pikachu while he's D-tilting.

 

[Ludiloco]

50:50 this mu is weird. Mario can't combo this guy at all due to how low he reaches to the ground and his counter and his side b. However greninja can't combo mario due to his nair. Both edgeguard each other decently. Greninja has his up b to push away marios up b. Greninjas upb leaves himself open so he can do whatever but that can be punished so I suggest sticking to cspe. Greninja has more range and kill power than mario. Mario has up smash to ruin his landing. He can cape water shuriken. So yeah a weird even mu.

Gonna have to disagree/expand on this.

Mario can definitely combo Greninja hard. He is a medium-weight fast faller, which means Mario will be getting 4-5 up tilts out of a downthrow before Greninja can do anything (except at incredibly low %, where Greninja can hold down and shield). Shadow sneak does give us the opportunity to escape your up air strings, but for up tilts it's generally a bad idea due to shadow sneak's endlag. Greninja otherwise does not have a quick move to get Mario off him once he gets in, so spacing properly for both characters is the name of the game.

On the flipside, Greninja CAN combo Mario. Due to many of his hitboxes being disjointed, it's really easy to read a nair and extend a combo against the Mario bros or Yoshi. Having a frame 3 nair doesn't mean you're immune to combos.

This is a matchup I find where Greninja really needs to respect Mario's frame data in neutral. Greninja does not have great moves to run in and punish things with, making things like landing with Dair or using smashes a bit safer for Mario than they would be against another character. On the other side, Mario needs to be respecting the space above Greninja as well as Greninja's faster projectile. It is difficult to say who needs to be approaching, but I've had no trouble baiting Mario to approach as I poke him with shurikens that go under his fireballs. Cape is annoying, but only annoying in neutral. Don't expect full charged shurikens.

Offstage and recovering you covered fairly accurately. Hydro pump can mess with Mario's SJP, while Greninja needs to be mindful of cape and FLUDD and generally avoid a high recovery. These characters edge guard each other pretty well.

Up smash is easily Mario's best KO tool in the matchup, as Greninja is slippery and likes to shorthop around a lot.

Conversely, Greninja's up smash is also his best KO tool. You need to respect the move or you're going to be losing stocks very early.

I will, however, agree this matchup is dead even.

 

[Macedonian]

Out of those matchups Charizard imo is the hardest. Charizard wins 55/45 against Mario. In spite of all of Charizard's design problems, I believe he actually exploits Mario fairly reliably.

Charizard is basically if Mac was a heavy weight, with less emphasis on frame trapping with pokes but greater emphasis on a strong grab game and having good survivability. He has insane run speed, good autocancel N-air, and generally superior ground game are really really hard to answer, and unlike Mac he's not easily gimped as Mario generally can't edgeguard Charizard's Up-B reasonably. His landing options do suck, but that's the only thing Mario really has in that matchup. In general though I believe a good Charizard has the advantage in neutral, and especially on platform stages he doesn't need to work hard for the kill when his U-throw is so strong. I also wouldn't charge Smashes against a good Zard generally speaking given Rock Smash beats that pretty handily.

If you can get the stock lead vs Charizard it's kinda viable to air camp him on platform stages because he's actually pretty bad at captializing in the air, but picking platform stages is generally not worth it due to U-throw kills.

Vs Lucario is annoying when Rage Force Palm command grab and B-air are things. Also Mario does not have an easy way to kill Lucario for rolling backwards. Don't think Mario counters Lucario by any means even if technically he wins.

Dunno much about Pikachu, just gonna say Mario actually has a really hard time punishing Pikachu D-tilt and you can't really fish for kills vs Pikachu while he's D-tilting.

I agree with most here about Charizard. Just wanted to throw in one of the common issues with the matchup I have is that he is your far the hardest heavy to combo. If you grab him at low percentage he has rock smash as well as his up b to get out of strings. Both of these can be paired and punished supper hard but the fact remains that Zard breaks out of things Gannon and dk wish they could.

I don't have much opinion on the match ratio. Mario is just overall so solid he always has ways to win against Zard. Like this matchup fludd and cape gimps come into play with the very linear up/side B of Zard. But what A2ZOMG is all true and I have myself greatly struggled against Zard, but I don't know how much of that was charachter unfamiliarity


I think all the Pokemon at once is to many MU to discuss.

We beat jigglypuff hard, just don't get carried off the stage by a wall of pain or too into a rest and you should be able to keep the puff out with all your great anti air tools like utilt, bait, and upsmash. Up air is harder to do but a great way to intercept the jiggs comming in. 60:40

To the luccarios in here, I feel it is being downplayed just how much of pain in the ass it is to deal with a charachter that gets stronger as he gets hit, as a charachter that lacks kill confirms or reliable methods other then upsmah spam. Yes we can cape everything. But cape is not much different then a counter in a swordie ditto, it's baits me and very punishable. Lucario is also heavier and can deal with Mario's early juggles to some extent with dair and counter. Mario still wins the matchup, his neutral is way better then luccarios and luccarios kills are hard to land reliably, they just all kill stupid early with rage (every Mario has to have the anger from dying at 80 to a upsmash being countered at full rage/aura) Mario 55:45

 

[Xeze]

I consider Greninja to be harder than Charizard, but I agree that Charizard is tough. With rage mostly. You cannot safely approach as a well timed Rock Smash will just cockblock you. You have to play carefully with Fireballs and spacing with FLUDD to get Zard into a position where you can go for the KO. Not sure about ratios on either of them.

Pika is arguably even. Mario beats Puff because his neutral is way better than her's. Lucario is mostly in Mario's advantage but keep in mind that he can clutch out a stock with rage+aura.

 

[miniada]

andwill be rediscussed
Discuss

 

[Kulty]

45-55: I SWEAR TO GOD that I absolutely hate this MU so much (much more than Luigi), because most Ness players are braindead (that's just me, you can disagree with me). They always go for PK Fire, down-throw and then Fairs repeatedly or down-throw to up-air and it becomes incredibly annoying. The worst thing also? When you're at high-percents, Ness is gonna run after and make sure he gets his back-throw (please nerf Ness' back-throw Sakurai). Mario has almost no options to keep Ness away from grabbing him aside of FLUDD. Overall, Ness wins neutral, since he has an annoying projectile, great kill-setups and good combos that almost do the same damage (or maybe slightly more) as a typical Mario combo. The only true disadvantage state that Ness has is edgeguarding, which luckily Mario does pretty against Ness (Fludd for his PK Thunder and Cape). The MU is not as bad, but god it can be very annoying for Mario to deal with.

I`ll do one for soon. This MU I feel is a lot more fun and exciting than braindead .

 

[miniada]

45:55
ness can combo mario hard outranges him with Fair and can absorb fireballs with down b.he has better kill options than mario with f smash, down and up smash, back air, up air, dair, BACK MUDAH FUGHGING THROW.mario has cape for dealing with ness projectiles. And it helps him to gimp him. Mario can combo him with fast aerials but dthrow to up tilt won't work because of his nair. Mario can't escape ness combos because of his disjointed moves on his fair.do I hates this mu YOU BET I DO.
lucas idk.

 

[Underhill]

vs:This MU is even for both of them.
While Ness wins in the air due to disjointed f-airs against Mario's aerials and up-airs to beats Mario's aerials, jiggle, and to kill, Mario wins in the ground due to better tiles, smashes, dash attack, and pivot smashes. Don't do down throw too early on 0% or 10%, or else, he'll n-air out of it. Up throw first and combo if you get the grab, then down throw combo. Cape for dealing with pk fire, but also jump or powershield it so he doesn't try to bait the cape. If he mis-space his f-air, don't be afraid to punish it. Jiggling game, Mario wins because Ness is floaty and doesn't have safe landings outside of f-air and b-air if he spaces correctly. Mix up and get him in a bad spot for you to punish by baiting and mindgame him, don't just use up-smash and be predictable with it. Ness's appoarches are ok along with ground speed and he'll mix up with n-airs, dash attack, f-airs, and b-airs. Ness can jiggle not just with up-airs, but also with pk thunder, up smash, and he'll try to bait your landings as possible with mix ups. Ness's ko potential is better, true because of his back throw(especially with rage), up-airs, n-airs, b-airs, forward smash(slow, but strong if he gets a hard read) and down smash to the ledge. As long as you don't force in your kills, pressure him, and force in errors on him, then you'll do fine. Edgeguarding, Mario wins, thanks to cape and fludd for pk thunder, but be mindful that good Ness players will mix up to get back on stage by recovering low, use pk thunder without second jump, and second jump to the ledge to f-air you for space. Watch out for pk thunder, mix ups, and his down smash to the ledge.

I used to dislike this MU, myself and had trouble with it as Mario which makes me switch to my Luigi for Ness, but now its less troublesome.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Hi Mario boards! Alright, here's my two cents. 50:50 OR 55:45

Pros for Mario:

• Mario bodies Lucas with his throw combos. Unlike Ness, Lucas doesn't have that godsend nair that lets him easily get out of his disadvantaged state.
• Mario's great mobility is usually enough to get past Lucas's mid range zoning. This match-up, when played optimally, almost entirely consists of close-range footsies, which is why I find it to be an exciting match-up.
• If, while unlikely, Lucas is forced to use PK Thunder to recover, FLUDD will wreck him.

Pros for Lucas:

• Lucas almost completely invalidates Fire balls. If he's not absorbing them, he's reflecting him. And don't even bother trying to punish his magnet; upon absorbing a projectile, Lucas can immediately cancel his magnet into a roll, spotdodge, or jump, making it virtually impossible to punish. No long range zoning from Mario + limited mid range zoning from Lucas = a very close range fight.
• Fortunately for Lucas, he has the frame data to keep up with Mario in said close quarters footsies. They both have frame 2 jabs. Mario's tilts are slightly faster than Lucas's on average, but Lucas's tilts have disjoints and his forward tilt is safe on shield when properly spaced.
• Lucas's tether keeps him from being easily edgeguarded, protecting him from the cape and FLUDD. Lucas can cancel his air dodge into a zair, allowing him to safely air dodge offstage. It's also great for on-stage combat. Lucas is immune to the cape's turn-around effect while he's using zair. So, if he properly mixes up his usage of it and PK Fire, he can land with it and set up his zair-related combos.

I'd also like to mention that both characters can pretty safely harass each other with their aerials.

Overall, it's pretty much even, coming down to who outplays whom the most in the neutral game.

 

[OGPiP]

I think Ness v Mario is a 40:60 MU in favor of Ness. Mario can't do much against this annoying little ****ball. Really the only advantage Mario has over Ness is being able to mess with Ness's recovery. If he tries to recover low, you can use neutral b to hopefully put him in enough hitstun to possible fall to his death. If he recovers high, ez kill. FLUD or cape work great on this. You can also use cape to cover low recovery but thats a bit more dangerous because if you mess up, you might get hit by Ness after he turns himself into a projectile, meaning you'll probably die. He can break out of your combos with his nair so you can't rely on combo game to win the match for you.

You can try to cape his PK Fire for a free fsmash but once you do that to him once he probably won't fall for it again.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ness v Mario is really really close when played optimally, but it's really annoying for mario. I'd say it's 45:55 ness. (47:53 if i could)

Essentially you charge fludd in neutral A LOT vs ness. You can't pressure him with fireballs consistently but his low mobility and poor landing/recovery all make him very susceptible to fludd camping. If he's not approaching, charge it up.

Bair is a decent approach but his pre-emptive bair/fair wall beat it, so you need to make him hesitant to use them by mixing it up with fludd.

Whether he's recovering or on the ledge, just harassing him with fireballs and fludd safely is usually best. Don't get into a ledge/backthrow war with them because they will win, either bait out the grab/spot dodge or don't bother. They'll almost always be too conscious of the concept of bthrows to let you get yours.

 

[Macedonian]

I feel like a match up where mario can not reliably pull off bread and butter combos, while his opponent has supper easy kill confirms, makes life hell the plumber. Nair breaks out of your combos while you struggle to get out of his as easily due to his disjoints, and superior range/priority. however neutral is not unbearable and as already stated you win offstage hardcore due to ness being ness. mario if below ness can do alot of damage though, ness dair is trash.

so considering all things, ness has a slight advantage, backtrows are easier to land then gimps. and we cant land our combos.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

The one thing for Mario is he can outspace Lucas's grab with F Smash.

Imo 45:55 for Lucas, slightly in Mario's favor due to being able to apply pressure safer and trades slightly better imo, but I feel like Lucas can definitely fight back so it's 45:55 or 50:50. I feel like Lucas is a character with mostly -1 matchups, just has to outplay his opponents.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I don't quite get how Mario beats Ness in every other Smash game, yet he loses to him in this one. Wasn't it just trademark that Ness's inherent design makes it so that he can't absolutely win against the plumber?

As for Lucas, is there any chance it'll be like the Brawl MU or the PM MU (both of which I'm sure Lucas wins)?

The one thing for Mario is he can outspace Lucas's grab with F Smash.

Imo 45:55 for Lucas, slightly in Mario's favor due to being able to apply pressure safer and trades slightly better imo, but I feel like Lucas can definitely fight back so it's 45:55 or 50:50. I feel like Lucas is a character with mostly -1 matchups, just has to outplay his opponents.

Mostly -1 MUs? No wonder you want a fix for the character.

BTW, if Lucas's Nair AC'd like in Brawl, how would this change the MU?

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Mostly -1 MUs? No wonder you want a fix for the character.

BTW, if Lucas's Nair AC'd like in Brawl, how would this change the MU?

I just want Lucas's old nair back, 17 damage, eats shields, doesn't combo. We could apply pressure then, I hate when people say we have zair, yeah because I want to rely on zair to do 2 % each hit and keep running. He's designed to combo, even in the trailer it showed follow ups.

Give him safe pressure, reward him for damage (11% for a sweetspot, that doesn't kill til later is horrible), make D Smash not just stop working after shielded. Make it do less shield damage but make it good.

The reason I have him as -1 matchups is he relies on grabs which he has a hard time doing (Bowsers jab outranges our grab, the 2nd hit), and it's not a very good game design. ZSS has good things outside of grabs, and Lucas can be compared to her, but he doesn't have that much.

6% per nair doesn't cut it for me, also one of the reasons Mekos plays Ness, Lucas just has some stupid stuff about him and they completely gutted how he was in Brawl and made him worse.

EDIT: -1's are also due to a poor neutral, but played effectively he can still do stuff. So he's not horrible.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I just want Lucas's old nair back, 17 damage, eats shields, doesn't combo. We could apply pressure then, I hate when people say we have zair, yeah because I want to rely on zair to do 2 % each hit and keep running. He's designed to combo, even in the trailer it showed follow ups.

Give him safe pressure, reward him for damage (11% for a sweetspot, that doesn't kill til later is horrible), make D Smash not just stop working after shielded. Make it do less shield damage but make it good.

The reason I have him as -1 matchups is he relies on grabs which he has a hard time doing (Bowsers jab outranges our grab, the 2nd hit), and it's not a very good game design. ZSS has good things outside of grabs, and Lucas can be compared to her, but he doesn't have that much.

6% per nair doesn't cut it for me, also one of the reasons Mekos plays Ness, Lucas just has some stupid stuff about him and they completely gutted how he was in Brawl and made him worse.

EDIT: -1's are also due to a poor neutral, but played effectively he can still do stuff. So he's not horrible.

I see. Nice write-up.

Just so you know, I'm the same SkeeterYosh guy on Reddit you may see on more than a few occasions on Reddit (and may have also replied to). As you may see from my profile, I main Yoshi. Do you think that in the future, both of us could face each other? I could really use a training partner of some sorts in case I want to compete in college tournaments. My NNID and 3DS code are on my profile page.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I see. Nice write-up.

Just so you know, I'm the same SkeeterYosh guy on Reddit you may see on more than a few occasions on Reddit (and may have also replied to). As you may see from my profile, I main Yoshi. Do you think that in the future, both of us could face each other? I could really use a training partner of some sorts in case I want to compete in college tournaments. My NNID and 3DS code are on my profile page.

I wouldn't mind and I figured it was you

If you have Skype that'd be easier, Blueberry-Syrup is my Skype.

 

[Xeze]

Keep FLUDD ready for both Ness and Lucas. It's an insta gimp if they use PK Thunder offstage. Keep in mind Lucas has also the option to recover with his tether.

I feel like Mario loses to Ness slightly and is either even or has a slight advantage against Lucas. That's mainly due to Ness' stronger options to secure a kill and to break out of combos.

 

[JosePollo]

Hi Mario boards! Alright, here's my two cents. 50:50 OR 55:45

Pros for Mario:

• Mario bodies Lucas with his throw combos. Unlike Ness, Lucas doesn't have that godsend nair that lets him easily get out of his disadvantaged state.
• Mario's great mobility is usually enough to get past Lucas's mid range zoning. This match-up, when played optimally, almost entirely consists of close-range footsies, which is why I find it to be an exciting match-up.
• If, while unlikely, Lucas is forced to use PK Thunder to recover, FLUDD will wreck him.

Pros for Lucas:

• Lucas almost completely invalidates Fire balls. If he's not absorbing them, he's reflecting him. And don't even bother trying to punish his magnet; upon absorbing a projectile, Lucas can immediately cancel his magnet into a roll, spotdodge, or jump, making it virtually impossible to punish. No long range zoning from Mario + limited mid range zoning from Lucas = a very close range fight.
• Fortunately for Lucas, he has the frame data to keep up with Mario in said close quarters footsies. They both have frame 2 jabs. Mario's tilts are slightly faster than Lucas's on average, but Lucas's tilts have disjoints and his forward tilt is safe on shield when properly spaced.
• Lucas's tether keeps him from being easily edgeguarded, protecting him from the cape and FLUDD. Lucas can cancel his air dodge into a zair, allowing him to safely air dodge offstage. It's also great for on-stage combat. Lucas is immune to the cape's turn-around effect while he's using zair. So, if he properly mixes up his usage of it and PK Fire, he can land with it and set up his zair-related combos.

I'd also like to mention that both characters can pretty safely harass each other with their aerials.

Overall, it's pretty much even, coming down to who outplays whom the most in the neutral game.

I don't really think Lucas gets "bodied" by Mario's throw combos, since his floatiness allows him to get out pretty quickly with good SDI, but yes, Lucas doesn't have any particularly good answers to Mario's combo pressure outside of just running away and creating space. If you're patient enough with Lucas you can go the entire match outside of Mario's range and just harass with zair and PK Fire until the Mario player screws up (missed auto-cancel, flubbed RAR back air, he decides to throw out a fireball, etc.) the punish hard with down throw. As for FLUDD, Lucas can go really low to avoid being put in that diagonal space from the stage where FLUDD would actually serve to gimp. Like nair, though, his PKT2 has zero disjoint, so back air will put the Lucas player in a stage spike situation if he decides to recover vertically.

For what it's worth, Lucas can't cancel the magnet absorb in the air, but yeah fireballs aren't very useful at all for Mario in this match-up due to Lucas just being able to absorb, reflect, zair, and PK Fire them to activate the flame pillar (biggest reason why I think Lucas wins the Luigi match-up handily, since fireball really the only thing Luigi has to cover his approach, but that's neither here nor there). Zair, in my opinion, is what keeps the match-up even given Mario's much better aerial frame data. As long as Lucas stays grounded, where he as access to his shield and grab, he can win. Once he gets in the air, Mario can have a field day since Lucas's lack of landing options play right into Mario's strengths (up air juggles and his up smash).

But yeah, I'd say the match-up is very close to 50:50.

 

[miniada]

Discuss

 

[miniada]

IMO
55:45
in terms of combos point goes to mario. Due to falcons heavy weight he is vulnerable to getting comboed from 0to80 or even 0todeath. Not to mention edgeguarding since mario can combo him off stage where falcon would have to use his horrible recovery which us venerable to our cape, fludd, and FAIR dunk. In terms of falcon edgaurding us thats not scary since falcon cant go offstage due to his poor recovery putting him at risk. When it comes to killing it's pretty even falcon has better kill moves but don't forget mario can easily get him of stage. Since falcon is vulnerable to getting comboed to high percents that would leave him vulnerable to bthrow, sweet spot fsmash, and up smash. When it comes to approaching both suck but mario has an easier time approching with fireballs which he can also use to camp falcon.
45:55
mario can't combo him at all. Gaw escapes combos easily due to his light weight mixed with good DI. He can combo us with down throw. He can can shield our nair and upb giving us no options to escape. He has better damage output and kill power. He outranges mario which ruins his already mediocre approach. He can be hard to edgeguard due to his good fast recovery. He can edgeguard us since his better recovery allows him to get of stage easier.
55:45
duck hunt likes to use projectiles a lot. And unlike link this actually helps mario alot since duck hunt doesn't have many options outside of that. He is quite easy to combo since all his moves are laggy giving him no options to escape. He also has absolutely no kill power and damage output giving mario and easier time killing and it makes him benefit from rage even more putting duck hunt in a big disadvantage. Duck hunt gets edgeguarded really easy since his up b leaves him vulnerable to fludd, cape, and FAIR.
60:40
rob likes zoning with gyro so cape helps alot. Rob can't use laser as a kill option due to cape. Mario can combo him so hard due to his slow attacks and heavy weight. In terms of edgeguards it weird. Rob doesn't have anything scary except for dair in terms of edgeguards. And marios fludd doesn't really help. Rob has better kill power and damage output. However we have better mobility and frame data do we can punish him easily but he can't punish us.
the rest I don't know much.

 

[Underhill]

vs: Even because both can rack up damage, combo each other, jiggle each other, and gimp. CF's range such as jabs, d-tile, and b-air can be a pain to deal since he can out-space and box us out if needed. His kill potential, especially with rage since he's heavy is beter. His edgeguarding is better because he can kill better off stage and he can even get a stage spike off a falcon dive if you screw up gimping. D-air can trade with Mario's up-b off stage which can end badly for you. B-air and knee for reads and stage spiking(mostly b-air). Watch out for his up-tile because he can use the foot to cover your ledge options and get reads from you. Mario's edgeguarding isn't bad since CF's recovery is not good. If you get him to use his falcon dive, then b-air him and keep doing after grabbing the ledge until he has no more distance to grab the ledge. N-air and especially cape because if you get the read on his dive, then he's history. Mario's down throw combo won't start at 0 to 10% since he's heavy and can shield, but once you're past 10%, he's combo-food due to being heavy and a fast-faller. CF can also combo Mario with his down throw and you want to di away as possible, especially if he aiming for the knee at a specific percentage. Up-air jiggles, you can break out of them, but only on early percentage and after mid percentage, get away from him because you can't challenge anything his disjointed up-airs with your low range aerials. Plus, with his speed, he can catch your landings and will try to bait your landings and punish with mix ups. Fireballs, SH aerials, trots, and pivot movement can get CF a rough time to appoarch since your is better, and you have a projectile and he does not.

vs: Slighty in Mario's favor.
Ground game, Mac wins because of f-tile, super armored smashes, and jabs to not only rack up damage, but to also box out Mario if used correctly. Air game, Mario wins because of his aerials to appoarch and get to Little Mac in the air which he's terrible at. Little Mac gets jiggled hard because of no safe landings, bad aerials, and only has counter as his way out which can get baited if you read it. Little Mac can also jiggle you and catch your landings because of his superior ground speed and he will try to bait your landings with mix ups so be careful. Since Little Mac can't go off stage, he can down smash for gimps, ledgeguarding, and if he gets a read and the timing, then boom, you're hit or dead. Mario wins because of Mac's crappy recovery. Cape and Fludd can be a nightmare for Mac so have the fludd ready at ll times. N-air and b-air if needed. Battlefield or stages with platforms are good for Mario and bad for Mac because of his terrible air game and jumps while Mario can jiggle him more, add pressure, and put out more combos.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Guest from G&W boards here.
: is 50:50 to 47:53 in my opinion. In our favor but still incredibly even
Combos are definitely on G&W's side in this matchup, we have a lot easier time getting our usual BnB then other characters, plus G&W generally can easily escape staircase combos. Mario is one of the few character our neutral isn't too bad against because Mario has subpar zoning. Finally, the offstage game is hugely in our favor(something people don't know though is that Fire is actually secretly really bad at sweetspotting so if G&W has to recover max distance[as in after iframes are gone] a dsmash can catch him with correct timing). Mario is one of the easier characters to edgeguard, and G&W is pretty damn good at it.

However, I'd say the onstage kill potential is in Mario's favor. Our smashes have a ton of startup and we can only kill confirm off grab on Mario at very specific percents so both aggressive and defensive play will keep you from getting killed. The fact that bair is enough of a disjoint to avoid usmash after getting invincibility armored is pretty important. dair also cannot be usmashed with correct timing, and will actually break the up smash. We're not good at chasing nair out of shield, and our OoS options pale in comparison to yours. So basically we have a big advantage at low percents but we begin to really struggle if the Mario doesn't fall for any kill traps. Add that to the fact that our extreme lightness and floatiness also means Mario doesn't need that many hits to kill with that amazing up smash(not as good as ours but still pretty good), and this matchup is pretty even.

Some other notes:
Fireball is really bad in this matchup, especially aerial Fireball. G&W is too fast to get tripped up by those in my experience.
Our aerials are super duper laggy on landing, especially when compared to yours, so if you're smart about it we shouldn't have an easy time landing.
lol how do you like being the ones who get 50% done to them from one misspaced attack into getting grabbed?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

My input on vs

While I have no experience with this MU, GimR vs Anti at STR is a pretty good place to start.

http://youtu.be/a4YjokcTxrw

Plus I even talked with some G&W mains like @JustKindaBoredUKno, and he believes that it's slightly in Mario's favor.

http://smashboards.com/threads/old-...-discussing-peach.390094/page-2#post-18600784

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3omfsq/tips_on_the_ness_vs_gw_matchup/cvzxzpz

BTW, JKBUK, if some of your opinions have changed, please let me know.

 

[Kulty]

Imo, just gonna go over them briefly :
55-45: I think Mario wins this MU by quite a lot when he's in other stages other than FD, because Little Mac is extremely vulnerable to platform camping. Basically, Mario forces the Little Mac player to go in the air (which is one of Little Mac's biggest weaknesses). And then, Mario has the perfect tools (Cape and especially FLUDD) to gimp Little Mac's recovery. However, in FD, I think Little Mac wins by a tiny bit, since not only he can pressure Mario a lot more in neutral, but he can kill Mario way early than a true input Shroyuken by Ryu. It's very hard without platforms to gimp Little Mac. I put 55-45, since we're not in For Glory. The metagame consists of other stages, not only FD (and thank god for that)!
50-50: I SWEAR TO GOD THIS MU IS INCREDIBLY ANNOYING! Olimar is the worst ****ing character in existence. BUT THANK GOD Mario has quite the tools to take on Olimar quite solidly. I do feel it's even. Olimar does have a laggy grab, which does give Mario an opportunity to combo him. That's where the problem comes in. Olimar can't be comboed easily (which is annoying btw), since he has so many moves to escape Mario's combos. Also, his ****ing Pikmin Throw is annoying too, because it does prevent Mario's to approach safely and he will take a lot of damage of this. One big thing that Mario can capitalize on in this MU is edgeguarding, and Olimar is incredibly vulnerable since he has not hitboxes to protect himself. However, Olimar can do the same thing to Mario and he can recover pretty low (if Olimar has no Pikmins). Also, Mario can reflect Olimar's smash attacks which can lead to early kills if the Mario makes good reads (which is INCREDIBLY SATISFYING). Btw, sorry to offend some of you guys who like Olimar, but I really do hate this character. My apologies.
55-45: THIS MU IS FUN (especially against a really good Villager)! The biggest advantage that Mario has when facing Villager is his Cape, Mario's best friend against zoning characters. Because of this, Villager has to respect Mario's Cape when it comes to prevent Mario from approaching. He can't use Lliod Rocket as much, neither his Fair or Bair just to name a few. Mario has an easier time landing kills than Villager, since the latter has KO moves that are very unsafe to use in neutral. However, there are a few things that holds Mario back from bodying Villager. First, his poor range can make it very difficult to approach Villager without using his Cape too much. Second, Mario can't edgeguard Villager since his recovery is almost ungimpable, and Villager can gimp Mario very easily. Also, Villager can nullify Mario's approaches with Fireballs since he has Pocket.
55-45: I don't have a lot of experience against Wii Fit Trainer. So I can't really say much about her, but I heard that Mario wins this MU by slightly.
55-45: OH MAN! THE HYPE KING! THIS MU IS HYPE! Probably the character that I have the most experience with. Let me tell you this. This MU is not easy for Falcon, but it's duable. Mario can combo Captain Falcon A LOT, due to him being vulnerable to the up-tilts juggles, and Mario can edgeguard Falcon very well, due to him having a not only poor recovery, but it's also pretty predictable. However, Falcon can pressure Mario easily and can rack up the same amount of damage as Mario in a few hits, because Falcon has better damage output. Also, he has better kill comfirms than Mario, which he has to be careful of, since Mario does have a quite hard time killing Falcon due to his weight. Falcon also has slightly better range than Mario which can hinder Mario's approach.
45-55: THE NEW MARTH OF THE GAME! His huge disjointed hitboxes can give Mario a hell of a hard time approaching Shulk. Basically, Shulk can capitalize on Mario's two biggest weaknesses. First, he has one of the best reach in the game, giving him a huge disjointed hitboxes which Mario is incredibly allergic to. Second, since he has the Jump Monado art, he can gimp Mario pretty easily. However, what makes this MU duable for Mario, is that once Mario gets in and grabs him, Shulk is pretty much doomed. He's combo food like Falcon and Roy and no options to escape Mario's juggles, since none of Shulk moves come out fast. Also, without the Jump Monado, Shulk is pretty vulnerable to edgeguarding, which Mario can capitalize on. Mario still has to be careful when edgeguarding Air Slash, since it has huge range.
55-45: I think it's pretty much the same thing as Villager combined with Olimar. Duck Hunt can't carelessly throw out projectiles since Mario can reflect them. Once Duck Hunt is off-stage, Mario can capitalize on it, since
45-55: I HATE THIS MU SO MUCH, just because not G&W is an annoying character (personally), but he has a good recovery that's almost impossible for Mario to gimp and he has THOSE STUPID DISJOINTED AND LONG-LASTING HITBOXES THAT ARE JUST SO ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH (****ING UP-SMASH)! Plus, Mario can't even combo him due to G&W fall speed and weight, and G&W does since he has the best combo throw in the game (imo). Like Olimar, another character that I INCREDIBLY HATE.
60-40: It's just like Villager MU, but a lot easier for Mario, since he can combo ROB a lot and ROB has no options to escape Mario's combos. Plus, ROB has a slow recovery and has no hitboxes to protect himself from getting hit, which Mario can capitalize on and edgeguard ROB (can even lead to death if the Mario player is consistent on his punishes).

 

[RMF]

50:50 Our advantage is that we can combo him well due his size. But the main problem is: how freaking hard is to aproach a shulk! And he can combo us with fairs to the blast zone with the jump monado! But it's a fun MU!

Tips against shulk: Respect his Bair and don't rush in without thinking!