Guide Mario matchup thread

[Zeth444]

Just put an * at Luigi with the subtitle "before 1.1.1 Nerfs".
And, after we are finished with the roster, we come back to him.

 

[Xeze]

That's a good idea!

 

[miniada]

That's a good idea!

Good thing I did that idea.

 

[xDizxy]

Any tips against ?

 

[DunnoBro]

Any tips against ?

They don't really have an approach, from game start you can safely charge fludd. Fludd pretty much replaces your long-range harassment since he can absorb fireballs. Luckily, they short hop a lot and hate being offstage.

It's really annoying comboing/killing him, due to his air dodge. Honestly you should never go for fair 50/50s and just try to RAR bair him all the time. Since it covers both no air dodge, and air dodge away. Nair/fast fall fsmash/dsmash can cover air dodge in, depending on percent. Also gets him offstage, uair strings might do more damage but bair is just better positioning.

At low %, when you want to punish an air dodge landing, do downsmash. They have the mobility to go behind you so this lets you cover that option, also beats nair better due to the lower hurtbox.

 

[miniada]

will be re discussed shoutouts to the samus mains who helped out.
discuss

 

[Steelballray]

Uh, hi. MK stuff here.

It's really a typical 50/50 MU in my opinion or a slightly 55/45 because we kill and fish for kills better.

Generally during neutral you should have the upper hand but we don't suck at it too much now because we have one or two more lovely options that we can use beside dash attack and dash grab. We get much more out of winning neutral and one simple mistake or miscalculation on your behalf can result in a kill that's way too early. Fireballs are annoying but hiding behind them in a predictable way can result in getting hit with a downB which HURTS. MK is more likely to escape the early combos better because of his jumps which is good.

In high % we can fish for upBs, F-throw to upB and F-smashes that are lagless and safe on shield.

You can't edgeguard us really and you have to be careful with getting back to stage even with your awesome upB. If you're far away we can get down and fish for a nair before you get in range to UpB.

Mario still has amazing an side and upsmash which can ruin everything for us flif we are not careful enough.

I think this is mostly it about the matchup. There aren't many speical elements to it and hard advantages that give one side the upper hand too much.

 

[miniada]

Imo
60:40 mario can force kirby onto the aiand into shield with fireballs. And can break out of combos with his Up B and nair. He has better mobility. And better kill options than kirby. He has fludd and cape to edgaurd kirby. He also has better frame data and punish game. And he has better combo abalities.
65:35 he can combo him hard, has better mobility and frame data. Since dedede has very laggy moves we can punish him but he can't punish us.dedede upB gets gimped buy our cape and fludd.we can cape his gordos.
40:60 it was probably between 0 and -1 but then mk got combo and kill buffs. So now he can juggle mario and can fish for kills better. He has superior damage output and range. And can take advantage of Mario's subpar recovery. His upairs can combo him and lead into his up-b for the kill giving him a nice set up against Mario who already has a hard time getting kills.

 

[Kulty]

Imo
60:40 mario can force kirby onto the aiand into shield with fireballs. And can break out of combos with his Up B and nair. He has better mobility. And better kill options than kirby. He has fludd and cape to edgaurd kirby. He also has better frame data and punish game. And he has better combo abalities.
65:35 he can combo him hard, has better mobility and frame data. Since dedede has very laggy moves we can punish him but he can't punish us.dedede upB gets gimped buy our cape and fludd.we can cape his gordos.
as for mk idk. I know it's at least 50:50 but I don't have enough knowledge To comment on him.

I do think Meta Knight wins against Mario, because MK does have the tools to capitalize on Mario's weaknesses which are disjointed hitboxes and sub-par recovery. MK having a decent range plus great edgeguarding makes it hard for Mario to approach safely. Plus, Meta Knight can kill Mario early due to his excellent kill setup to Shuttle Loop. However, Mario has a better neutral game and can combo Meta Knight quite hard. Combining with his fall speed and lightweight, it's not that hard to KO MK.

I think this matchup is 45-55 or 40-60.

 

[TimG57867]

Ah, Mario. From my experience, this feels pretty even, if slightly in Mario's favor. Kirby and Mario have advantages against each other:


Mario moves faster in air and the ground and has all round better frame data, especially in his smashes. This makes getting punishes easier for him. His aerials are great for combos and his N-Air and Up B will get him out of combos if Kirby overextends. He also has the invincible Up Smash which means Kirby has to be very cautious about casually landing on him with aerials. Kirby also has to be careful when using Final Cutter to recover as if does it carelessly, Mario can edgeguard with FLUDD and Cape. Mario also has fireballs to annoy Kirby and force an approach. Since their Smashes are rougly equal in power and Mario is heavier, Kirby will die first percent wise. Plus Mario's Back Throw will generally Kirby before Kirby's Back and Up Throw can.

While his air speed isn't as good, Kirby overall works better in the air thanks to multiple jumps. While Final Cutter is supsceptible to FLUDD and Cape, his jumps alone should normally be enough to get him back. Just be keep an eye out for F-Air. When forced to use Final Cutter, Kirby should try to do it right under the ledge and make sure not to land on the stage. Now Kirby operates by bait and punish. With the multiple jumps, Kirby can bait an attack like Up Smash and then dive in with D-Air which leads in jabs, smashes, grabs, etc. D-Tilt is also something to watch out for as it's incredibly quick and spammable and has a good trip rate. Generally, Kirby can't overextend combos as Mario can break out with N-Air and Up B. But at low-mid percents, F-Throw to F-Air will work before Mario can act. In turn Mario can combo Kirby with Up-Air. But at mid to high percents, Kirby's light weight will allow him to jump and float away, with only Up B having a chance of connecting. Generally, Mario can approach well with Fireballs. However, Kirby can take the fireballs with Inhale and use them to greater effect thanks to our multiple jumps. Mario also has to be cautious when recovering like Kirby. While Up B itself is fast and can't be challenged head on, it's distance is short and predictable. If knocked too far away, Kirby can strike with D-Air. B-Air and F-Air work too but it's not advised do to Mario's F-Air which, while slow, can spike us back if he gets the timing right. Gimping Mario becomes even easier when have his ability as if he's far away we can drop fireballs to take away his jump.


I am not sure matchup scores are very productive at this point in time, but if that's what you guys like than I personally give it either a 50:50 or 55:45. Mario has the better neutral, but Kirby has ways to get around that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Kirby is Mario's favor. It's really really boring if the Kirby is really trying to win though.

Basically Kirby doesn't really have the mobility or pressure options to pin Mario down in neutral. All he has is a kinda scary up close game with a lot of reward. He's small enough to duck under most of Mario's rising aerials though and his ground normals slightly outrange yours, so a lot of this matchup you'll basically be running away and baiting him ideally.

You can get the most damage on Kirby when juggling him given he has no fast way to break Mario's strings, and he's floaty and kinda slow compared to Mario. Make sure you're ready to catch him for airdodging, and don't be afraid to Up-B him to catch him in the air for trying to jump away from your strings. At some point once he runs out of jumps, you can get much better punishes on him since his recovery options aren't great, and neither are any of his options for landing on the ground.

For the most part, the only ways Kirby can kill you are either whiff punishing you with Smashes, edgeguarding you with Stone or D-air if you're forced to recover low, or with U-throw (so ban BF please). Killing him by far isn't necessarily braindead but Mario can usually kill him earlier given Kirby is light and will eat a lot of damage from Mario's juggles if they're done right.

 

[Xeze]

Mario loses against Meta Knight but beats Kirby and Dedede.

Mario has troubles getting in on MK and closing stocks outside of an up-smash/f-smash read. You can combo him decently though and he is rather light. Range is also a problem and MK can juggle you efficiently and KO Mario off the top with u-air strings->up B.

For Kirby, the previous post sums it well up.

Dedede gets outcamped by Mario. Fireballs bounce back Gordos in one hit. If Mario gets a grab at 0% on Dedede, he will get him to 60%-70% easily and there's nothing Dedede can do about it. Due to Dedede's weight, Mario can't KO him easily but he will eventually get there. Dedede can get some surprise KOs with a hard read + rage. But overall Mario wins this one solidly.

 

[Kid_Carlton13]

Could someone please give me some advice I need to work on some matchups because I placed 7th at a tournament because I got beat by a.The was really smart and could easily punish w/ side b on stage and on the ledge. was very campy and easily beat me because of his back throw. And the was very aggressive and would space a lot w/ bair so it was hard to grab him, he would also short hop dair a lot too. I would get grabbed a lot as well and he'd just follow up so it was hard to get in and do damage. PLEASE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks in advance. :]

 

[Phan7om]

Literally just camp Kirby with fireballs untill you find an opening. Dont sit in shield too long, use mobility to avoid almost everything Kirby does including grabs. Dont shield or challenge Dair, react to it and roll or walk out of the way, only viable way for Kirby to hit that move is if Kirby reads movement or whiff punishes you.

Unless the Kirby player is good enough to get the sweetspot on Up-B, he is very vulnerable when recovering (and even then you can stil hit him). If he is low enough so that cape/fair/flood wont reliably connect, just Dsmash the ledge because Kirby's up-b doesnt have a hitbox coming up except for the first few frames. Repeat Dsmash until dead or cape/Fair/Flood if Kirby up-bs too high.

Matchup is 70:30 Mario tbh.

 

[Poupoko]

I regularly play with a Mario main that actually knows the Kirby MU, so I can effectively say that Mario destroys Kirby.

Usmash being fast and massively disjointed prevents Kirby from doing anything to Mario from the air, outside of Stone (bad idea). On the ground, Mario "outpokes" Kirby and a good hit will lead to a sizeable string of hits on Kirby. Kirby can usually do the same on most characters, but Mario's F3 Nair and F2 Jab lets him deal with anything that's not a smash. The only way Kirby can keep following up is by reading attempts to "combo break," but in that case all you have to do is jump away and Kirby can't do anything.

Killing Kirby is easy for Mario. Usmash beats all aerial attempts, Fsmash KO's incredibly early and is safe on shield, and at around 130%+ Mario's Uair, the fist of Dair, Bair and Dsmash become super quick KO moves. If you manage to land UpB near the top blast zone (not very easy if the Kirby knows what to expect), Kirby can die pretty early, like at around 90 with no rage. On the other hand, all of Kirby's smashes are some combination of slow, unsafe and low range so Kirby can't really get you unless you mess up pretty bad. The best bets Kirby has for KOing Mario are Bair, Bthrow near the ledge and mixing up edgeguarding tactics.

Recovering should be a non-issue as long as it's not predictable, double jump to UpB covers a huge distance and Kirby can't edgeguard it reliably thanks to the UpB invincibility and massive hitbox. You can even take advantage of that when edgeguarding Kirby yourself. Smart usage of Bair, Cape and UpB should cover all of Kirby's options.

I think this MU is at the very least a 60:40 in Mario's favor.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

I do think Meta Knight wins against Mario, because MK does have the tools to capitalize on Mario's weaknesses which are disjointed hitboxes and sub-par recovery. MK having a decent range plus great edgeguarding makes it hard for Mario to approach safely. Plus, Meta Knight can kill Mario early due to his excellent kill setup to Shuttle Loop. However, Mario has a better neutral game and can combo Meta Knight quite hard. Combining with his fall speed and lightweight, it's not that hard to KO MK.

I think this matchup is 45-55 or 40-60.

I've got to agree. All of 's Aerials have enough knockback to get easily off the stage. Since you can't stall against with Cape or use F.L.U.D.D to push your self towards the stage in the time it takes him to do any of his Aerials and get a very easy gimp.

's ground speed being 10th fastest in the game allow for him to easily get in on with out very much issue. Sure has FireBalls but as laggy as they are a Power Shield and Dash Grab/ Dash Attack/ShotHop Nair can stop any type of spacing tries to do.

And even if tries to get in a Neutral B can punish him and build up easy damage.

I agree. This Match up / is 60:40. Not sure what Mario can do in this situation honestly.

 

[miniada]

I guess mks buff are alot more obnoxious than I thought.

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

I guess mks buff are alot more obnoxious than I thought.

Well not really obnoxious they are just right. While can get in on easily. He still only has a few approaches. That other characters can shut down due to their range. I mean in this specific MU yes, its a bit fustrating for . But is anything but obnoxious.

I think he's the right speed, weight, and power for what he's made out to be. He's possibly the best swordsmen in the game.

Than again has always had problems with keeping people away, not sure how it would change much in this game lol.

That's just for ya.

 

[Xeze]

At least the MK matchup is not unwinnable like in Brawl

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

At least the MK matchup is not unwinnable like in Brawl

tru that my friend, tru that.

 

[Kulty]

At least the MK matchup is not unwinnable like in Brawl

True. So true! UGH... At least it's possible.

 

[miniada]

At least the MK matchup is not unwinnable like in Brawl

Oh yeah. In brawl it, was tough maiming mario and luigi. Because of mk for mario he lost 80:20 and luigi was 80:20 as well.

 

[xDizxy]

Who wins the matchup? Some people say it's in Mario's favor or vice versa.

 

[Xeze]

Who wins the matchup? Some people say it's in Mario's favor or vice versa.

Rosalina wins the MU. It's been discussed before in this thread.

 

[miniada]

And shall be re discussed. And all characters being re discussed will have two weeks so they get the input they deserve.

 

[Kid_Carlton13]

Could someone please give me some advice I need to work on some matchups because I placed 7th at a tournament because I got beat by a.The was really smart and could easily punish w/ side b on stage and on the ledge. was very campy and easily beat me because of his back throw. And the was very aggressive and would space a lot w/ bair so it was hard to grab him, he would also short hop dair a lot too. I would get grabbed a lot as well and he'd just follow up so it was hard to get in and do damage. PLEASE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks in advance. :]

So i guess nobody has some good advice for these matchups???? C'mon guys I just need some advice to get better that's all.

 

[miniada]

So i guess nobody has some good advice for these matchups???? C'mon guys I just need some advice to get better that's all.

DunnoBro already commented about ness and the ganondorf discussion was quite successful and informitive.

 

[Underhill]

Kirby, I'll get out of the way, first. vs, its 55:45 or 60:40 in Mario's favor on default because even though Kirby can combo with his throws, air-auto cancel, gimp Mario(but not easily), has more ko options along with set-ups, has d-tile to out-space him if needed, and has anti-air moves, Mario has better frame data, kill him early, gimp Kirby due to slow air speed and can't snap the ledge so cape and fludd are useful for that, jiggle him since Kirby is floaty, and has up-smash as a anti-air move.
Customs: I would say its even because Kirby's upper cutter can not only snap the ledge and be difficult to gimp, but can combo out of his throws and use it Oos. Hammer bash, he can use it for a punish, but that's about it. Shock cape is good for another ko option and Gust cape is ok. Fast fireball to force approaches, combo or even camp.

vs: Bad news for Mario. Its 45:55 in Meta Knight's favor. I think it was even before on the pre patch, but now on post patch, its in Meta Knight's favor, now. At least this MU is not as bad than in Brawl. I would switch to or if Meta Knight gives me trouble as Mario because at least they have a even and better MU against than Mario.

Meta Knight is very difficult to edgeguard even with ledge trump, cape, and fludd, thanks to his superior recovery for him to avoid gimps and mix up options as well. While you have up-smash as a anti-air and can jiggle Meta Knight(not easily since his landings are good for mix-ups), Meta Knight can do it better with his up-airs and also has up-smash as a anti-air move. Meta Knight has the speed to approach and deal with Mario's fireballs because of their end lag; Plus, his disjoints can keep Mario out. Meta Knight can combo Mario and his n-air or up-b won't be able to save him from his up-airs to up-b, much so its best to mix up di to escape that deadly combo; Otherwise, he can even get a early kill off of you with his up-b. Its very important to mix up your recovery because Meta Knight can gimp Mario and if he reads it, then you're done. Both have good frame data and even ko options to battle each other, but while Meta Knight is light and Mario has better up-smashes(slighty, but forward smash), I think he has better kill throws with up-throw(off top of a platform) and back throw. Mario can also combo Meta Knight since he's alittle slow in the air to escape air combos.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Yo Mario boards! We in the Little Mac boards are currently discussing the LM vs Mario matchup. If you all have any experience on this matchup or could provide some matchup practice to other LM mains, please drop on by and leave a post. It would be greatly appreciated!

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-analysis-5-mario.419562/

 

[miniada]

Will be rediscussed
Discuss after we get falco bread.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Can I give my MU on Mario vs Kirby even if its theorocrafting and not really tournament knowledge?

 

[miniada]

Can I give my MU on Mario vs Kirby even if its theorocrafting and not really tournament knowledge?

We are not discussing kirby anymore. We are discussing fox and falco.EDIT: look at the title before commenting about a mu this could lead to off topic infractions.

 

[Kulty]

45-55: Fox doesn't get affected by the Mario up-tilts, which makes pretty hard for Mario to rack up easy damage. However, once at mid-percents, Fox gets comboed hard. One thing that Fox can`t really capitalize on is edgeguarding since he falls so fast, which makes it kinda safe for Mario to come back on stage. However, once Fox's offstage, Mario can easily capitalize on Fox's predictable recovery options. In this matchup, I think it all comes to whoever has the better punish game. In the beginning, I thought that this matchup is even, but now, it's slightly in Fox's favor, but definitely duable for Mario.

50-50: I don`t know about Falco, so I'll let someone explain it. I heard that the Falco boards said that this matchup is slightly in Falco's favor, which I kinda disagree with. Just to be safe, I think it's even or maybe slightly in Mario's favor.

 

[miniada]

IMO
50:50 I know a player named Underhill who mains both and agrees it's even. Both characters can combo each other decently. Mario can't combo fox at lower percents. And mario has nair to break out of his combos. Both characters have good frame data so they can't really punish each other. They are not really the best at edgeguarding. But mario does have cape and Fludd so he does a bit better in that department. When it comes to killing each other that's when it gets weird. Fox will need to get a read to get a kill. And mario can kill him with backthrow and from a tech chase read. Both have a hard time approching.
50:50. I know a few things but it ain't much. Mario can combo falco and kill him well since he's a fast faller and is light. He can edgeguard him to. However falco laughs at him on the ground due to having a superior ground game with his tilts and jab. His back air is a good kill option against mario. I'm not sure if falco can combo mario since he does have nair and up b.

 

[Underhill]

Actually

IMO
50:50 I know a player named Underhill who mains both and agrees it's even. Both characters can combo each other decently. Mario can't combo fox at lower percents. And mario has nair to break out of his combos. Both characters have good frame data so they can't really punish each other. They are not really the best at edgeguarding. But mario does have cape and Fludd so he does a bit better in that department. When it comes to killing each other that's when it gets weurd. Fox will need to get a read to get a kill. And mario can kill him with backthrow and from a tech chase read. Both have a hard time approching.
50:50. I know a few things but it ain't mych. Mario can combo falco and kill him well since he's a fast faller and is light. He can edgeguard him to. However falco laughs at him on the ground due to having a superior ground game with his tilts and jab. His back air is a good kill option against mario. I'm not sure if falco can combo mario since he does have nair and up b.

Actually, I don't main Fox. I play him as one of my causal characters, but I still main Mario. I'll have my insight on the MU on Fox and Falco, later.

 

[miniada]

Actually


Actually, I don't main Fox. I play him as one of my causal characters, but I still main Mario. I'll have my insight on the MU on Fox and Falco, later.

:ok

 

[Kid_Carlton13]

DunnoBro already commented about ness and the ganondorf discussion was quite successful and informitive.

How long ago was that?

 

[miniada]

How long ago was that?

Dunno bros post is at the top of this page and the ganondorf discussion is on the 2nd page.

 

[Kid_Carlton13]

Dunno bros post is at the top of this page and the ganondorf discussion is on the 2nd page.

ok thanks man

 

[Macedonian]

Falco is one of my secondaries so i don't mind putting in some match up knowledge on him.

i think the most important thing in this match up is just how bad falco's disadvantage state is. he has such a hard time escaping pressure from mario and gets combed so hard from his fastfaller nature. combine that with falcos light weight makes surviving verses mario a huge problem

falco can combo mario pretty well as well from Dtilt, Uthrow, Dthrow. And verses falco, the edgegaurd game is real, forward air can wreck the upB. But combos are just so hard to start when you are slower with a worse grab.

mario is more maneuverable, has better combos, a better projectile, and an easier time killing. we have at least a 55:45 mu i think.

I don't have as much Fox experience but the MU definitely does not seem unwinnable.