Guide Mario matchup thread

[Skeeter Mania]

In regards to the Shulk MU, has no one taken his horrendous frame data into consideration (besides Lee to an extent)?

 

[SeanS]

Ah, finally, a high tier matchup for I have a lot of experience in.

In theory, G&W should win this matchup. But, particularly after the shield stun patch, this is a slight advantage and it really goes by player skill most of the time (personally, at this point, I only have 1 loss to a Mario player, save for one who decimated a whole tourney in my region, and I was the only person he dropped a game to).

Nevertheless, as a G&W player, I will do my best to vouch for our advantage in this MU. Keep in mind that this is a purposefully biased post, intended to explain how G&W is a credible threat to Mario in some significant ways; I do not consider G&W's advantages to be extreme in any way and this matchup is evenish (55-45 if you want numbers, though I really don't like them because matchups can change over time or misrepresent the MU to some people).

Anyway:

On most characters, Mario typically wants to throw out safe aerials and pressure shield with tilts, jabs, and grabs after he does them. This particular matchup presents a unique challenge for Mario in that G&W has several non-shield options (up smash, up B [both are invincible to some extent], disjointed aerials, etc.) that can definitively beat Mario's aerials, so Mario has to mix up considerably to the point where the match basically becomes a bout of prediction, fundamentals, etc.

Mario does have many assets in this MU - his dair (good for dealing with up smash if used unpredictably and with excellent timing), his ftilt, and most of all, his grab (particularly from dash, and even more so when coming down from a extremely well spaced nair). His approach, while having to be unconventionally safe and grounded compared to that in most matchups that he plays, isn't terrible at all.

But Mario struggles with two things that G&W excels in comparatively - killing, and getting back to the stage.

Mario's main kill options are smashes, outside of odd situations which can largely be avoided through safe play, and one which I will discuss shortly. These smashes require him to get within immediate distance of a character who can disjoint, invincibility tank, and shield into guaranteed punishes and seriously endangering edgeguard scenarios - in short, a very significant read is required to kill from these moves in this MU. And many of Mario's other kill options, such as up air and back air, are dealt with via floatiness / dair / proper air dodging and up smash / followup dash attack / simple up B recovery, respectively (these can happen; again, this is theory). What Mario does kill from consistently in this matchup is his back throw. It's not a great kill move in terms of the percent required, and it still requires Mario to go in, but it is the most consistent way he kills G&W for sure - you can't invincibility tank or recover from a kill throw.

In contrast, G&W regularly hits Mario with disjointed moves that have a lot of knockback and edgeguarding ability. He may lose in a neutral game with slightly more consistency, but he will reap significant conversions every time he lands a hit.

As for Mario's recovery, the priority and speed of his up B are saving graces for a recovery with poor distance coverage, and can force G&W to trade per each edgeguard if timed early enough. But Mario is particularly vulnerable to many of G&W's aerials nevertheless, all of which usually confirm a kill on connection. G&W's back air, in example, lightly hits him downward on the first hit in a typical up B trade, and necessitates a very well timed air dodge or highly preemptive up B in any case since it lingers. Fair lingers similarly despite being more aggressive and read-oriented in the edgeguard scenario. And even G&W's own up B is viable as well, with the potential to cover a lot of the vertical distance of Mario's up B via invincibility tanking.

In contrast, G&W can kill Mario when Mario tries to preemptively bair an up B by simply changing the timing of the up B (via stage spike, which may not be techable at higher percents), does not regularly fall at any angle which is conducive to fair spiking, and can even parachute onto the stage if the incredible ease of ledge grabbing is somehow not wanted.

There's a lot of other stuff to this matchup, like various move prioritizations, G&W's dash attack as great ground coverage / vortexing off of various hits, and even the occasional threat of Mario getting bucketed if he is overly campy. But anyway, enough talk, here's some videos (my region isn't always streamed, apologies for the poor video quality at times):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXiamFJaMRA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY4lG0nd5sc (I really like this one, very neutral game heavy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6_lSK8EPPk (game 2)


Hope this all stirs up some discussion, and I'm absolutely glad to comment on any replies or questions regarding the G&W MU.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Well detailed analysis!

Although I would like to add that G&W probably struggles more to kill Mario than the other way around considering the latter has a reliable KO confirm, and the former does not.

 

[Folie]

Good to see a board that's relatively grounded about their character. SeanS covered the MU better than I could ever hope to, but I will add some minor things.

Be wary of using nair to catch a followup out of G&W's dthrow, a good G&W player can expect it and usmash as opposed to SH nair, which leads into a fairly damaging followup (usmash > nair > up-b > maybe weak fair, depending on DI and %)

As far as the bucket goes, like SeanS said, it's a punishing option against playing overly campy with neutral B, but the move has massive endlag and if G&W buckets close enough, it can easily lead to a free grab or potentially usmash/dsmash for Mario

My input on vs

While I have no experience with this MU, GimR vs Anti at STR is a pretty good place to start.

http://youtu.be/a4YjokcTxrw

A precautionary word about this vid, while the first game is an excellent example of what happens to a Mario when they play aggressively and try to use the same tools in the same way as any other MU against G&W, it should be noted that Anti capitalized heavily off of unoptimal decisions in games 2 and 3, namely, overuse of dtilt (VERY heavy on endlag as far as tilts go, despite coming out fast), and practically exclusively using usmash while Anti was above him instead of using aerials, dash attack, etc, to vortex him.

 

[SeanS]

Well detailed analysis!

Although I would like to add that G&W probably struggles more to kill Mario than the other way around considering the latter has a reliable KO confirm, and the former does not.

This is technically true, as G&W has no safe move that gets the kill, unlike Mario's back throw (you could say dthrow uair, but that's been nerfed since the last patches and honestly only really works on FD / T&C, which, while actually common in the MU because of stage bans, isn't actually G&W's preferred stage at all).

And while you're not wrong, the flip side of this is that Mario suffers more than G&W on a per hit basis, and not even simply in terms of raw damage. This is why, even though he wins slightly more in the neutral game, he still has problems dealing with this character. One aerial blanked into upsmash is a death, one dash attack leads to a chase situation or edgeguard, one edgeguard hit from any lingering hitbox is usually a death, etc. It's generally this way with most of G&W's moves, and the last thing you want to be is directly above G&W with no stage control.



While I'm still here, I should also mention a part of the MU where Mario wins out that most players here won't know about as well. One of the best positions Mario can get G&W in is in ledge grab. Mario's up smash does an insane job of covering most of G&W's non-attack options off of the ledge. When done directly on the ledge, it will cover standard getup, ledge roll, and jump (although the timings are different for each). This is actually pretty broken as a mechanic, but it is a good and very scary option if not spammed (I personally will expect it at high percents and react accordingly with people familiar with the MU, which is admittedly rare, but still).

 

[miniada]

I decided the mu thread should go to a general all characters discussion since most threads use this since most people like it like that. And even though we are discussing so and so people still ask for tips on a different character.

 

[EnGarde]

Hello! The Roy Boards are currently discussing the Mario MU, and we would love your input!

Please click here to visit our Mario MU thread, or click here to visit the general MU directory thread.

Thank you!

 

[OGPiP]

60:40

ROB is combo food for Mario. There's not much a ROB can do to escape Mario's combos. None of his moves come out quick enough. ROB does have some gyro combos on Mario, but Mario can nair out of a lot of his BnB combos.

Seems to me that ROBs good match-ups are the ones where he can wall the enemy out with his projectiles, which cape nullifies.

ROB can't really edge-guard Mario, since most of his off-stage options can be caped. The one thing that ROB can reliably do to an off-stage Mario is dair, but it can be hard to get the spike hitbox without getting hit with the up b. However, FLUDD does nothing to ROB, and it can be really hard to knock him back far enough and reliably enough where they run out of fuel. Fair works great against him though.

ROB can reliably kill Mario with dthrow -> uair and up smash, while Mario can have a little bit of difficulty killing ROB due to his weight. However, up smash, forward smash, and back throw all seem to do ok at killing, it just might take a while.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

I'm a Wii Fit Trainer main. I consider myself pretty decent with the character.

I think the match up between Mario and Wii Fit definitely favors Mario.

-Wii Fit Trainer sacrifices having poking tools for zoning tools (her projectiles essentially are her best pokes) but Mario takes that away with his cape. Mario does not feel the same level of pressure as other characters from Wii Fit's fully charged Salutation because he has a reflector. Wii Fit relies on this pressure somewhat.

-Mario's pokes and frame data spells trouble for Wii Fit Trainer and her abysmal grab range.

-Wii Fit Trainer tends to favor her aerials more so than her ground attacks (given, her f-tilt is one of the best in the game at what it does), meanwhile Mario has a fantastically strong and safe anti-air attack in his upsmash. Approaching is very difficult.

-Mario's smashes are very strong and are very difficult for Wii Fit to punish. Wii Fit's smashes, while very strong as well, require a much greater commitment to throw out.

-Wii Fit Trainer must play reactively to how Mario plays. The pacing of the match is dictated by Mario. With that said, Mario can't leave Wii Fit Trainer alone because of her healing capabilities but he has the option to play aggressively or passively. Wii Fit Trainer can punish Mario with big damage but it requires a good read or risk.

 

[El Texicano]

55:45 correct me if I'm wrong about anything (and if I am, I should be very ashamed considering I main both these characters) This can be either a tricky match up or an easy match up for the plumber, our cape usually kills the pikmin on us after 1 or 2 swipes and any purples can be shielded or caped if the opportunity arises. Olimar has a quick jab which can lead to jab to grab down throw f-air shenanigans, a rather nasty punish that can rack up damage quickly if we're not careful.
Pikmin that are attached to us can cause some attacks and potential combos to become ineffective due to pikmin taking the hits, this can potentially save Olimar from a would be death if those pikmin hadn't been stuck to us to take the attack.

It is very important to note that all of Olimar's smash attacks are reflectable and can kill very early.
The cape can also toss back any pikmin and they can latch onto olimar and deal damage. Purples smack olimar just as much as they smack around other fighters and can be used to follow up with some quick damage. Olimar will be more cautious on his camping if there is a risk where he can receive unnecessary damage from his own pikmin. Reflected whites can rack up damage fast if he forgets to call back (trust me, in the heat of battle sometimes people forget they have pikmin on them if their opponent starts racing towards them)

Olimar's Smash attacks are punishable but he is very difficult to combo due to how floaty he is. Quick strings of attacks, pummel to throw, or a nice quick smash attack can rack up the damage and perhaps take out some pikmin in the process.
Also, all of olimar's attacks involving pikmin (even grabs) can potentially be duds if the pikmin are shaken up or can't keep up with olimar. Those whiffed attacks are free hits for us, sometimes a free smash attack which is bad for olimar because he is a tiny little fella who does not respond well to high knock back at around mid percents.

Olimar has nice recovery but aside from 1 quick air attack (which I believe puts him in the helpless state) if Mario is willing to go in and disrupt Olimar's recovery, all he needs is 1 or 2 capes, footstool, Fludd, or a well timed F-air. We have the tools to keep Olimar off stage with little to no trouble unless they recovery low, where going deep would most likely lead to our death as well.
Speaking of recovery and edgeguarding, be very careful when getting back on stage, Olimar's recovery can allow him to go in deep (depending on the number and type of pikmin he has) and take us out with an almost guaranteed trip back on stage. He can also gimp us with a well aimed purple toss so watch out.

I'm taking all my experiences from playing both mario and olimar and any matches I've had online against these two characters. Again I apologize if my view points on the match up are messy or compete crap, I do hope that this at least brought out something note worthy on the Mario Olimar MU.

 

[SaltyBentoBox]

Olimar is always a nuisance to go up against no matter who you're playing. His damage over time just annoys me and I can't really get going if Olimar gets the early percent lead. In a Mario/Olimar match up though, I believe Mario has the edge. Though Mario really can't combo Olimar that well as other characters, Mario can reflect Olimar's smashes, f-special, and most of his Pikmin attacks back at him.

Olimar's playstyle is this weird keepaway that can wall the enemy by utilizing his Pikmin and letting that percent keep adding up while trying to go in for the kill. Though it also seems that Olimar can rack up a good ammount of percent early in the match but has a harder time killing early if he doesn't have purple or red Pikmin. The killing potential lead should go to Mario because of his general same approach of getting fast aerials and mini-combos off while also having a quick and high-knockback smash attacks, especially in his Up-smash.

In terms of recovery though, I think Olimar has the advantage with better distance and faster recovery but Mario does have tools to keep him off the stage with Fludd, footstooling, and the cape. Overall Mario has better speed and damage to edge out Olimar in what I think is a close matchup.

I'm still a noob at analyzing smash matchups so I apologize if this post is very inaccurate.

60:40

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar sub-forum is now discussing the Mario MU. Any input is appreciated!

 

[miniada]

Discuss

 

[Kulty]

So imo,
45-55: This is what I call an example of the character that gives Mario a ton of trouble. In previous games, Marth destroys Mario completely (Brawl especially), because Marth shuts down Mario's already mediocre approaches and poor range, making Mario difficult to approach Marth. However, in this game, it's much more duable. Not only we buff Mario's range a bit, but his approach (while still terrible) is slightly better than in previous games. Also, Marth has been incredibly nerfed to his sword being shorter and his approaches are not as consistent as before. Because of this, while Mario does still have a slightly disadvantage because of Marth's range, it's definitely not unwinnable this time around. Heck, if the Mario player works hard enough to get in on Marth, I could see it being 50-50, but I will put 45-55 for now just for safety (but I feel it's very close to 50-50).
50-50: The same arguments as Marth, but what makes this MU easier than Marth imo is that not only Lucina's sword is shorter than Marth, but she does not have the tipper. So Mario doesn't have to worry that much about being tippered. However, Lucina is more capable of dealing with rushdown characters (which Mario can be one of them) compared to Marth, since she does consistent damage and can kill opponents early (if Marth doesn't land any tippers). That means Mario still has to watch out for her range and her sourspot attacks KOing him early.
55-45: A MU that I thought that Roy would win before, but I changed my mind. The biggest problem that Roy has is that his falling speed makes him combo food just like Captain Falcon. Mario can juggle Roy to death and on stages with platforms (Dream Land and Battlefield as great examples), Mario can even do a 0-to-death to Roy if he's consistent enough. Also, since Roy's Sword of Seals is way shorter than its Melee counterpart, Mario doesn't have to worry too much about range even if Roy's a swordsman. Also, since Roy's recovery is quite crap and predictable, Mario can edgeguard Roy pretty solidly. However, what still makes it duable for Roy is that he has excellent kill setups which Mario has to watch out. He can kill Mario incredibly early on stages with low ceilings. Roy still does have good combos that can rack up the same amount of damage as what Mario can normally do. On stages with platforms, Mario wins, but on flat stages, I think it goes even or slightly advantages Roy.
55-45: This is basically a combination of Marth and Roy at the same time. Let me explain. Ike receives enormous amount of buffs in the latest patches that now, he becomes a threat that Mario has to watch out. This MU is difficult for Mario, because not only Ike has one of the biggest range in the entire game combined with great KO power, but he also does have great kill setups that can kill Mario early. Also, Ike is a pretty good edgeguard, meaning that he can gimp Mario's recovery quite easily due to it being predictable. However, I still believe that Mario wins, because Mario can combo Ike to hell just like Roy, and Ike does not have many options to get out of combos because of his below-average frame data. Ike's aerials don't come out fast enough to get out of combos. Also, I feel that once Ike gets off-stage, I feel it's a lot easier to edgeguard Ike than any of the characters mentioned above, because Aether is affected by FLUDD, which can lead Ike falling to his death. Overall, it's a MU that's definitely way harder than the previous patches, but I still do believe Mario has the advantage. It can go to 50-50 even since Ike has the range similar to Marth and the KO power similar to Roy combined, which makes hard for Mario to deal with.
60-40: I think this is one of Robin's worst MU. Mario is definitely an example of a character that shuts down Robin's options completely. He can't spam his magic projectiles since Mario has the Cape. He has to be careful when using ArcFire (his main setup to start off combos) since Mario can reflect it. Also, since Robin's neutral game is not as consistent as some other zoning characters, Mario can get on Robin pretty easily, and Robin gets comboed hard. If that's not worst, Robin's recovery is slow, meaning that Mario does have quite of an easy time edgeguarding Robin (It happened to me but not sure if it still works, but apparently, if you cape Elwind, Robin can get spiked and fall to his death. Again, not sure if it works anymore). However, what makes this MU not unloseable for Mario is that Robin does have pretty good range with his Bronze sword and his aerials hit hard. It can lead to an early kill for Robin and he can edgeguard Mario pretty well because of this. Once Mario's off-stage, Robin can even spike Mario to death if Robin is precise when it comes to Elwind. Overall, Mario destroys Robin completely since he shuts down his neutral completely, but once Mario's off-stage, Robin can bring this back.

 

[miniada]

Imo
50:50/ I used to think this mu came straight from downstairs to haunt mario mains forever turns out I was wrong. Marth has more range giving him more options to approach and giving mario less options however mario can approach with fireballs if marth tries to hit them he receives noticeable lag that Mario can punish. Mario can combo marth hard he can escape dthrow up b with his recovery but that can be baited and shielded same with him trying to use counter. Marth has no safe landing options counter can be baited and most if his aerials are laggy. Marth still has the better netural once again since he ruins marios poor approach. He can use nair and fair to zone him out and has more kill power and damage with tipper. Lucina is the same just less range and kill power.
55:45 ike has been getting buffed which means mario doesn't get rekt by mario anymore but still loses. He gets combo'ed hard due to his slow moves and heavy weight. He can get edgeguarded by fludd. Up smash ruins his landing. He has better mobility and frame data than ike. Ike his range and ko power and can also edgeguard Mario.

I main mario and think it's
55:45
mario can combo roy into oblivion dye to his fast falling speed. Fludd is a good tool to mess up roys spacing. Mario has better frame data and mobility so his move ir more safe. Roy can't combo mario due to mario having nair and up b. Both gimp pretty well roy has nair and bair and mario has cape and fludd. Roy has more power than mario but can still get killed earlier if he gets ledge trumped.

70:30 marios best mu without a doubt. He is tall and laggy meaning mario can combo him hard. His recovery sucks so much it leaves him vulnerable to getting dunked. His moves are laggy and really easy to punish and since marios frame data is better than Robins he can punish is. Mario has better mobility as well. Up smash ruins Robins landing. Mario completely ruins Robins netural because of cape. It reflects his projectiles he uses to zone and start combos. However robin has better range and kill power.

 

[Nah]

Someone was like "we're discussing the Mario-Robin MU so come post" and I have nothing to do rn so I figured I'd come post.....not like there's much for me to say lol. The above two posters pretty much have it right. The MU's straight up awful for Robin and all we have going for us in it is kill power and disjointed range and the fact that Mario's not great when we've got him off-stage either (it's just that it's hard to get him there lol) and none of that makes up for what Mario's got on us really.

Do be careful of books though. While they are reflectable (why does cape reflect stuff before he even swings it ;-; ), they're small and fast and hurt quite a bit.

Also Kulty you can still spike Robin with a caped Elwind. You just have to be close to Robin, since the spike hitbox is only out for the first couple of frames of the move.

 

[Iceweasel]

Lucina player. I'd say Mario has a slight advantage in this matchup because Lucina can't answer fireball spam.

 

[san.]

Feels as though most agree it's 55:45 Mario vs. Ike and it's pretty simple to understand why. It used to be 65:35 to 6:4, but has been progressively getting better for Ike due to the patches. The shield stun patch allows Mario to crossup shield better, but it also allows Ike to space jabs and dtilts just outside of Mario's jab range. Mario has to make up for his range disadvantage with burst attack movement such as RAR bair. Mario is only slightly faster than Ike in all aspects (1.15 vs. 1.08 air speed, 1.6 vs. 1.5 run speed) so good timing is still required to hit him easily.

A few tricks in the MU Mario should be wary of:

-Mario's upB isn't all too safe against Ike's counter surprisingly, and it's slightly easier to perform than timing eruption. Even if you DI, it's tough to make it back to the stage again without a double jump due to its horizontal knockback angle. I think I'm the only one using counter like that so far, but it was quite potent when I tried it on Marios who didn't know about it for the first time such as Zenyou and Ally.
-If Ike snaps with aether under the edge, then I believe that Mario's FLUDD won't hit. I was playing Ally and made a mistake of having to aether to recover, and tried to aether as low as possible and FLUDD didn't hit me. It's a little difficult to perform, however.

 

[Gemba Board]

45:55 imo.
Marth dictates neutral in this match up. Mario will take more damage per attempt to get in, generally, than marth will trying to get into Mario. Marth's nair and fair work well against mario's hitboxes and shff uair ruins Mario's landing. Mario will deal a ton of damage on marth with utilt combos into uair madness however. There's little marth can do outside of upb and counter, both aren't very safe options. Also, fireballs are a great way to break marth's neutral. But! If marth can shoot down fireballs with retreating fairs, and Mario is rushing behind the fireball to follow up, marth's jab 1 right after landing will be perfectly spaced and if it hits you, it's mixup city. Careful with your fireball game.

 

[Underhill]

vs: This Mu is 65:35 in Mario's favor and can be one of Robin's worst MU.
She has to be careful of using her projectiles because of Mario's cape which her spells are useful for staring up combos, mindgames, and zoning. Mario's juggling game can be a big threat to Robin because her landing options aren't good and she only have b-reverse to pivot charge her thunder and side-b to mix up her landings. I think her back-air can auto-cancel which can help her land safely if spaced correctly, but still, Mario can punish her landing really well and threat her with mix-ups, baits, and mindgames beside up-smash and up-airs. While Mario's aerials can't challenge her disjointed up-air and up-smash if she juggles him while having mix-ups to make it hard for him to land with Arcfire, thunder, aerials and dash attack, his landings are better slighty because of his aerials auto canceling and her slow running speed. Robin is slow and Mario is fast both ground & in the air so you can get in her face and rush her down by being aggressive and bringing up pressure on her that she can't take. His combo game is superior since its harder for Robin to get out of then it is for Mario because he has a n-air and up-b(don't overuse or get read it to punished) to get out of combos while Robin doesn't have any fast moves to combo-break beside the books when she uses up spells which is something for Mario to look out for. While Robin's aerials have more range and kill power than Mario's, Mario's aerials are fast and safer than Robin's. He does better in the ground because his tiles, smashes, and grabs are fast and safer than Robin's. Off stage, I'll say Mario does better(not much) at in because while Robin has back-air and down-air for gimping along with Down-smash, ArcFire, and thunder to cover ledge options since his recovery is predictable, Mario can do more against her predictable recovery. Back-air, fireballs, and n-air to go box, but you can spike her Elwind with your cape, but only if you're close to her within the first frames.
Stages: I think Mario does better on Town & City, Helberb, and Delfino Plaza because of the low ceiling for him to get early vertical kills while Robin can do the same with her up-air, but that's about it for her. Battlefield and Dreamland slighty for Mario or even because while Robin can use her projectiles on platforms for mindgames, and extend her combos on them, Mario can bring up more pressure on platforms, juggle her more under them, and extend his combos as well. FD, even because Robin can have more space for her projectiles and zoning game.

vs: Even for both of them.
Her sword has less than Marth's, but can still give Mario trouble coming in if she spaces her tiles and aerials. Plus, Mario can't challenge her disjointed moves such as up-tile, up-smash, and up-airs with low range aerials while she juggling him. Fireballs help, but use them wisely because her aerials(especially f-air) can hit through his fireball and Mario while he's at endlag so mix up approaches with SH aerials, and pivot movement while baiting out her aerials and approaches to get in because they have more lag and can get punished if mis-spaced. Mario's jiggle game is better because Lucian's only landing options are d-air and counter which can easily get punished if read. Otherwise, the rest are bad and she'll have to mix up to land safely with correct spacing. Her jiggling game is ok, but her anti-air moves can be punished if dodged or avoided since Mario's are faster. Watch out for the counter and don't spam up-smash for punishing her landings; bait out landings with mix-ups and punish. Lucina got some combos to work with on the man in red, but Mario's are better because he has a n-air and up-b to combo break and his down throw combo can put hurt on Lucina so she can't use counter and if she does and you read it, more damage. Watch out for the up-b because that's her combo-breaker and OoS option. Lucina's edgeguarding game is better because of Mario's linear recovery and she has n-air, back-air, and f-air to make it for him to come back. Her counter is even worst because if she reads your up-b and you use your second jump, then you're finished. Lucina's recovery is linear too, so use your n-air, back-air, cape, and fludd off-stage while bringing pressure on her. Be aggressive on her and deliver pressure on her because her move are laggy(not much) and stay on her as possible and don't let her out-space you.

vs: I think its even or 45:55 slighty in Marth's favor.
Same stuff like with Lucina, but Marth has more range and tippers which can cause bigger problems for Mario to get in and getting back on stage. He'll have to space more though than Lucina because again, the tipper.
Stages: Battlefield and Dreamland, good for both of them because while the sword fighters can use the platforms with their range and aerials to jiggle and pressure Mario under them, Mario can do the same, but also extend his combos. Delfino Plaza and Helberb, I think Mario does better because of the low ceiling with his superior vertical moves to kill. FD, good for both.

 

[Xeze]

Mario beats Ike, Roy and Robin, goes even with Lucina and loses to Marth.

Marth has the edge over Mario due to his disjointed moves. If he spaces his tilts and aerials correctly, Mario has a hard time getting in. Plus Marth can edgeguard Mario easily with counter or nair/fair. However once Mario gets in, Marth has trouble getting out. The MU is not as horrible as it was in Melee and Brawl because Marth has more lag in his moves now and Mario is way faster. Use FLUDD wisely to keep your space and to stop certain approaches from Marth.
45:55

Roy and Ike are combo food for Mario and can be edgeguarded pretty badly due to their limitations. The can edgeguard Mario in return too, however. Roy doesn't get much reward from spacing his moves. Watch out for that rage f-smash though, it can KO very early. Ike can pull off some combos on Mario, but that frame 3 nair breaks out of them most of the time.
Overall, 55:45 /

Robin is arguably Mario's easiest MU. Slow, projectiles can be caped, combo food, linear recovery... Robin only has the levin sword over Mario's tools and it has limited uses. Mario can even spike Robin if he capes Elwind on the first frames.
65:35

Lucina is like Marth, but less dangerous. Doesn't have that tipper clutch and has less range. The rest is equal to Marth.
50:50

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I've noticed that many of you have put down that Mario loses to Marth primarily due to disjoint, though I actually want to direct you to a Melee Marth main that knows a lot about this iteration of the swordsman. Below I will provide a link to one of his detailed analyses.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._characters_i_want_to_see_buffed_zero/csugjzt

I also find it funny that people like @Silverfox117 thought that in pre-patch, the Lucina MU was close to 80:20 (found it absurd back then and still find it absurd today). Obviously now, the MU appears to be about even.
Here's a link to that analysis (a lot of it is really outdated, and some parts were blown way out of proportion, even by pre-patch standards).

http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-match-up-discussion-update-kirby.373171/#post-17816987

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Mario also has great edgeguarding options against ike due to ike having purely horizontal or vertical recovery moves, and nothing in between. Ike's up-b is easy pickings for fludd and cape and side b can also be caped.

 

[Macedonian]

Mario also has great edgeguarding options against ike due to ike having purely horizontal or vertical recovery moves, and nothing in between. Ike's up-b is easy pickings for fludd and cape and side b can also be caped.

Ike's who know the distance of arther rarely get killed by fludd. Also sideB can work but as a person who plays both these charachters it happens very rare and does not define the matchup.

The matchup all depends on the Mario's ability to break Ike's range; if he gets in he can win. It seems very difficult to put a ratio on this matchup since they both mess each other up, Ike has a much easier time edgegaurding Mario but Mario racks up that damage a bit faste. Feels like a pretty even matchup

 

[miniada]

Discuss

 

[Kulty]

Okay. So...:
45-55: This is another example of a character that can take advantage of Mario`s weaknesses pretty well. I feel that Pit does play similar to Marth, since they now have better range to space properly their moves to avoid being punished. Unlike Marth, they have multiple jumps, allowing them to escape combos and avoid being pressured as hard since they're a bit floaty. All of this makes it that Mario has almost no option in neutral to counter Pit. He can't juggle Pit with up-tilts, he gets outspaced hard, he can get edge guarded hard by Pit, he can't approach easily since Pit has the Guardian Orbitars to reflect Mario's fireballs, etc. Overall, Pit shuts down many options for Mario. However, what makes it duable for Mario is that Pit can't land the kill as easily and Mario isn't a character that dies early as , so Mario can survive pretty strong hits allowing him to use the rage effect. Mario can kill Pit relatively early with up-smash, since Pit is quite floaty. Also, while it's difficult to edgeguard Pit since he can recover low by using Power of Flight, if Mario lands the Cape while Pit uses this move, Pit is pretty much out of a stock since he has no hitboxes to protect himself. It's a hard matchup, but definitely duable.
45-55: Basically the same thing as Pit, since they're clones. However, I do feel that Dark Pit is a bit easier for Mario to handle, since f-tilt doesn't push Mario far. Dark Pit's arrows are very limited in terms of angles making it a difficult to edgeguard Mario without risking going off-stage and lose his jumps. Plus, Electroshock Arm (while powerful) is not enough to push Mario far away, since Mario does have a pretty good horizontal recovery due to his air speed being relatively high. I feel that Pit is a better choice to take on Mario, since Pit does have the arrows, the f-tilt and Upperdash Arm to gimp Mario relatively early.
55-45: I don't know much about Palutena, but assuming without customs, Palutena is a very defensive character. I feel it's hard for Palutena, since Mario has the mobility and the options to shut down most of Palutena's options in neutral. She gets juggled by the up-tilts, her recovery is quite punishable and she dies quite early from Mario's up-smash. Still, what makes it duable for Palutena is that she has a guaranteed kill-setup (down-throw to up-air), has a dangerous up-smash, she can shut down Mario's approaches and Mario can't reflect Autoreticle.

 

[miniada]

I uses to think mario was an even mu. However after playing the mu more and talking to other players I'm convinced its.
/60:40
in no way does mario out combo pit. Pit is floaty and has an easy time escaping combos he also has netural air to help him out. Mario has a hard time escaping pit(s) combos due to his middle weight and the disjointed hitboxes on pits aerials. Pit has better kill power and has more range than Mario. When it comes to edgeguarding that's what gets annoying for mario to deal with. Pit can pressure him towards the stage and get him of stage with f throw and bthrow which he can also use as kill moves. Pit has a better recovery than mario so he goes of stage easier. He can edgeguard him with arrow (not sure if caping them is all that helpful) Down b obituars and aerials which adds on to his better recovery.
I used to think both characters have no significant advantage over each other guess I was wrong.

55:45
mario has safer moves than palutena so palutena gets punished a lot. She gets combo hard due to slow attacks combined with being tall. Her lightweight makes her die easily to moves like fair and up smash. Mario can reflect auto reticle. Palutena has more range and dthrow to up air as a kill set up.

 

[Xeze]

Mario loses to both Pits, but I feel that regular Pit is slightly harder than Dark Pit because his side B has better KO power. Their disjoints are difficult for Mario to handle, they can punish landings, easily escape combos and actually have forward facing options and a forward kill throw. You have to be really patient in this MU or you straight up lose. Their recovery is very good, albeit linear. This a point Mario needs to exploit. In return, they can gimp Mario easily. Timing the Up B correctly to avoid a trade is key!

40:60 /

Palutena I don't have any MU experience. We have a good Palutena player in our scene but I never faced him, nor have I seen him facing any Marios here. So I leave this one out.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Still, what makes it duable for Palutena is that she has a guaranteed kill-setup (down-throw to up-air)

If you DI out, this is never a combo as far as I'm aware. People also overestimate the power of Up Smash, which is not abnormally strong, and kind of tricky to land due to it's kind of awkward horizontal hitbox and considerable startup. It's good out of Dthrow though.

I personally feel that this is pretty bad for Palutena, though not impossible. Likely 40:60 or 45:55 depending on how you define the numbers.

For starters, Palu cannot handle CQC, and Mario does pretty well there. Our two fastest standing options are our jab at 8 freakin' frames, and Dash attack which is technically 7, beats out moves as if it was frame 4.5 because of armor, but is Smash/combo punishable on block. Because of this, in neutral, Palutena NEEDS to control the spacing/pace of a match to survive. Get in her face and hit buttons. Fireballs are a much better projectile than AR, but we can reflect them, so try to shoot them in from a high angle. We don't give a rat's if you reflect AR, it will never hit us and it's really only used as a pressure tool at max range. If you take the 9%, that's great, if you don't you're still encouraged to come at us which is all we generally want from it if we hit the button. Don't spam safe aerials, we will win every trade if we see you doing it because of dash attack and Bair. We will poke with fair and bair. Both are safe when spaced, and not if we're too close. Bair is the less safe of the two but wins every trade. Because of your comparatively short range, we're actually pretty good at keeping you away and forcing you to come at us.

Palutena's advantage/reward is entirely centered on Jab -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Fair. DI away to force us to use Fair, as Nair does more damage and can lead into another aerial at specific percents. Bair also combos at lower percents for more damage. You can DI in to try and avoid a shot hop fair (which can lead to more at low percents) but if they full hop they have plenty of time to react to your DI and Nair or Far appropriately. If our timing is off by even just a bit, you can Nair either after the jab or the dthrow, but if we see this coming get ready to eat an Usmash. This combo stops being true somewhere around 80%, an you can airdodge out/jump away. This is also true if Palu has a lot of rage: Palutena with rage is the worst character in the game, I swear. Don't become predictable with recovery: Nair doesn't always trade well with your Up-B, but it gimps often enough that I still go for it.

When it comes time to kill, Palu basically has four reliable (for her, she's terrible at killing) options at normal kill percents: Uair, Usmash, Pivot Fsmash, and Dair. Uair or Usmash becomes a mixup out of Dthrow, but DIing away and jumping away will make it very difficult to make either land. Pivot Fsmash is for hard reads on rolls and misspaced aerials, but it's very risky as the move is hella punishable. Dair is for cheeky offstage airdodge reads and pretty much nothing else. If we don't find the opportunity to kill, we'll push percents up to ~130%, where Jab -> Utilt becomes a kill confirm, and Bair and Dash attack would kill if they're fresh (they're probably not).

Palutena's disadvantage is not great, but she has a couple of unique tools in warp/warp cancel. Nair is frame 5, but if we use it close to the ground and land before the final hit comes out, it's punishable on hit, so don't let use get away with that. Warp can be used to send us far away from where you're waiting for us to land, and if we have platforms we can come out of it nearly laglessly and protect ourselves with nair/bair or run away with another warp. When it's time to kill us, Usmash becomes a terrifying tool because Palu needs to use her aerials to control the neutral on any competent level and anything but Bair just straight up loses to your Usmash. We don't care about fludd, Warp is pretty safe unless you catch the 2 frame window.

If you get in, it's hell for Palu. If she can manage to keep you at mid range, it's not so bad.

tl:dr:

|| = You win
|_| = You lose
|_______| = Nobody accomplishes anything.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

actually have forward facing options and a forward kill throw.

I've actually been curious about this. How big of a disadvantage is it to not have very good forward facing options?

On a similar note, I've seen you guys post on earlier pages up to now that loses to , , , , , , , , (at least by miniada ), , , and (though these are listed as -1, so they're all doable). At least half of these characters are quite relevant in the competitive scene. By this logic, wouldn't it be hard to consider Mario a Top 10 (still of the opinion that he's within) let alone a Top 5 character?

 

[miniada]

I've actually been curious about this. How big of a disadvantage is it to not have very good forward facing options?

On a similar note, I've seen you guys post on earlier pages up to now that loses to , , , , , , , , (at least by miniada ), , , and (though these are listed as -1, so they're all doable). At least half of these characters are quite relevant in the competitive scene. By this logic, wouldn't it be hard to consider Mario a Top 10 (still of the opinion that he's within) let alone a Top 5 character?

I know think mario beats roy. MUs don't affect viability. Luigi was top tier but his MU's were absolutely atrocious.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I know think mario beats roy.

Actually now that you mention it, I do recall you typing an earlier comment saying that.

MUs don't affect viability.

They kinda do. If a specific character fares poorly against the higher tiers (or just those common at high level), their viability is overall lower than one who fares better.

For example, you mentioned pre-patch Luigi in your comment, but a lot of people (myself included) found him to be overrated and either at the bottom of the top tier or the top of high tier. What made Luigi so good was that he was probably the best counterpick character in the game. He did really well against other common characters such as Ness, Pikachu (I don't know if I'd actually say common for him), Sonic, Fox, Mario, and Falcon. With this nerf, he no longer has this commanding advantage, though he does likely still win against half these characters (though not really a CP anymore).

At this point, some are struggling to even consider him Top 20 (I believe those like @TriTails said that), but given some impressive performances by those like Ron (probably the best dual Mario Bros main in the world) and Boss (won S@X 123 using just Luigi), maybe he could still salvage Top 15.

 

[Kulty]

Here's the thing though. Mario is very good, but I feel that people overrate Mario WAY too much. While I do like that people appreciate Mario for being a great viable character in tournaments and place quite high in national tournaments, I feel that as the metagame will progress, Mario will start to get outclassed by quite a large number of characters and will be considered mid-tier just like the Melee metagame. Idk, but that's just me. Since I mained Mario day 1, I always thought he was a good character, but I also like that even if he struggles against some mid-tier characters, it gives me reward of working harder outside of top and high-tiers. That's why I never consider Mario to be boring or braindead (unlike), because he struggles and has to work hard in order to rack up those wins giving him only average options. I love his concept as a character: giving him average options. And with his average options, Mario rewards you for working hard with only those average options, because once they're fully developed, Mario transforms into someone extraordinary.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I wouldn't go as far as mid tier, but certainly out of Top 10. The results may argue otherwise as of now, but I feel this might be what the future will turn into.

 

[Underhill]

I'll start with Palutena first, then the Pits in another time.
vs: 55:45 slighty in Mario's favor, but not a bad Mu for the goddess.
Mario's frame data is better along with his ground game while Palutena's punishable and not safe. Her smashes hit hard, but still punishable while Mario's are safe. With the superior frame data and combos in his hands, Mario can rush in and get to her face while Palutena has to play safe and keep him out with her range and jabs. Plus, his pressure and aggresive(not reckless tho) can be a threat for her along with his combos and ko options since she's light, tall, and don't have a move to combo break, safely. Her air game can keep Mario out with SH f-airs and back-airs beside jabs while getting grabs for her down throw combos and set-ups. Her ko options aren't safe as Mario's so his are better, but can hit hard like I said, if you're not careful. Her teleport can help her escape pressure and be useful for mindgames and ledge cancel(platforms as well), but if overuse, be prepare to fludd or read and punish in case. Her projectile isn't as good as Mario's, but caping is useless because of 3 energy shots so power-shield or roll behind her. Mario's juggling game is superior to Palutena because she's floaty and doesn't have good landing options outside of Wrap so mix up with options beside up-smash, and bait out landings to punish. Palutena can still juggle Mario with her disjointed up-airs and up-smash(slow, but for hard reads), but that's it along with mix ups. Plus, don't challenge her up-tile either if she decides to go for a mix up and catch your landing. Dash attack and Back-air have invincible frames so those beat out Mario's attacks. Palutena has decent edgeguard tools to gimp Mario along with ledge trump and ledge guarding and especially if you get knocked far off stage to make it back safely. However, his jump punch is hard to challenge. Palutena's recovery is better because she can teleport to the ground, platforms, and angles high & low to the ledge, but still has to watch out for back-air, cape, and fludd and try to mix up.

 

[Xeze]

I wouldn't go as far as mid tier, but certainly out of Top 10. The results may argue otherwise as of now, but I feel this might be what the future will turn into.

I feel Mario won't drop lower than top 15. He is different from Melee/Brawl. He had good frame data in the past, but no mobility to good along with it. Now he has said mobility, which makes a huge difference. Plus up smash is godlike now.

 

[miniada]

Discuss.
.

 

[miniada]

andidk about. I know Mario beats megaman and that no one knows about ryu.
Mario beats pacman and goes even with sonic.
55:45
both can break out of combos but mario has more advantage than that. Mario has cape to stop pacman weird tricks. He wants to use projectiles to stop your approach cape. Runs back and knocks his hydrant at you cape. Try to kill you with key c...... u get the idea. Mario and pac man both are not the best at killing but mario benefits from rage more. A good combo game combined with kill moves and set ups.
50:50.I main both so I know a lot of the mu.
in favor of. Mario wins the approach game since he has Fireballs, fludd, and nair to stop spindash approach. If he trys to jump up during spindash upsmash, upair, and up b can stop it. Sonic has no good approach outside of spindash so that won't be goid for him. Up smash ruins sonics land options due to the invincible hit box on the move.
in favor of . Sonic's Mobility makes it hard for mario to punish him combined with good frame data. He can spindash into shield and block marios fireball approach.
Then again 6wx but what are the chances of that.
50:50 the rest.Edgeguarding. Sonic has up b but Mario's up can beat that out. both go even in the edgeguard game since sonics recovery leave himself open.so cape, fludd and fair can edgeguard him. However sonic can edgeguard Mario with Fair and bair. And he can spindash to footstool to Dair to spike mario Or juggle him (kind of though). While rage can benefit mario it also hinders him at the same time. It ruins fire balls and makes them less threatning. And leaves him open to bthrow. Sonic wins rage since he the already mentioned bthrow but he also has fthrow and the spindash and up throw into upair kill setup combos. Sonic's up air has disjointed hitboxes so keep that in mind. Sonic can get out of combos with spring but then it leaves him open to a landing that will get punished by up smash. Sonic can juggle mario with spindash so combo game is pretty even.
overall it's a pretty balanced mu.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Ryu is sort of a MU that's heavily debated. I've heard people like @HeroMystic saying that it's in Ryu's favor due to superior range, power, and footsies, and I've also heard those who say it's in Mario's favor due to being hard to combo with up tilt, invalidating FA with Dair, and comboing him.

Before you ask, yes, I've seen the set between Ron and 9B (Ron winning 3-1). It looked like Ron was on point with everything, and 9B was sort of falling behind, but I see why those who say Mario wins say that. At this point and time, I'm probably going to say that's it's around even.

Surely beats about 60:40. Even Scatt thinks this (I belive Ninjalink and Zucco thought this as well).

As for , I don't know.

As for , I actually think wins slightly over contrary to what critics and sales would say. miniada , I just want to let you know that Mario has no business tampering with Sonic's recovery, and neither does Sonic outside his own Up B. If Sonic puts Mario in the air via up throw or something else, Mario can have troubles getting back to neutral (Neutral does favor him after all). Sonic can also kill Mario easier in the air than the other way around (though considering this happened

, maybe I'd like to rethink my life), and he has better range at the cost of frame data.

I don't really have much else to say.

 

[ChopperDave]

boards are in pretty broad agreement, I think, that the MU strongly favors . It's arguably our worst matchup in the game, and definitely in our top 3. I'd give it 60:40. Could even be worse than that.

has everything we Mega Mains hate: very good mobility, great frame data, meaty aerial hitboxes that can overpower out lemon walls and still hit us, good juggles, reliable and safe kill moves, a projectile that can bounce over ours, and arguably the best reflector in the entire game. He has solid answers and option selects against just about every tool in our kit. Once he gets into CQC we have a hell of a hard time regaining our footing unless we have Leaf Shield up (which, in this MU, I do a lot).

The one thing has going for him in this MU is his edgeguard game. If we get offstage we have some good options for gimping him, and we can make it tough for him to get back on stage and regain the neutral. That's a pretty big "if," however.