Mario Mafia/Newbie 10! Game Over! Scum Wins!

[vanderzant]

I've never seen snow before

 

[M.K]

It's snowing outside my house right now.

.....that is so strange.

...COME TO AMERICA

 

[ranmaru]

Yes, Grump. People can be influencing. But you have to be strong enough to say no to people who would want your approval for what they say. Separate your belief from others beliefs.

I fear volcanoes. :[

 

[vanderzant]

I will go to America one day, but I'd probably go during Summer because I'm not a fan of the cold.

 

[Grump]

Go during the MLG national/regionals :D

 

[vanderzant]

So is Uber dead yet?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

So is Uber dead yet?

Maybe X1 is? He hasn't posted in a while...

 

[X1-12]

Yah, I was asleep.

D1 Final Votecount!

UberMario (5) Vanderzant, Grump, Ranmaru, Acrostic, Terywj
Vanderzant (1) UberMario

Not voting (3) Glyph, Seph, Meta-Kirby

With 9 alive it takes 5 to Lynch!

UberMario(Yoshi, Vanilla Townie) Has been Lynched!

Night 1 Begins! Send all Night actions to me 10PM on Dec 18th! (GMT)

The next Day will start early if all actions are in and all players have been online during the Night Phase

 

[X1-12]

Terywj (Peach, Town Jailer) had died!

Day 2 begins!

No votes have been placed

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline is 28th December!

 

[vanderzant]

Ok lame Uber was town.

Vote: Meta-Kirby

I was thinking you might of been town if Uber was scum, because there is no way in hell you'd but your scum buddy at L-1 without even reading the thread. You've also been lurking/skimming hardcore. I doubt town MK would be content to just joke around in Twilight. You had no sense of urgency after the Uber lynch. Yeah you've said you are busy and I just am struggling to see you as town.

Also FoS Glyph because I still think he's scum too. Not entirely for the whole pm stuff, but his blatant tunnelling and what I feel to be lurking.

@Grump: Feeling slightly better about you. I'm not totally convinced you're town based on the couple of things I've outlined, but I think I'd be tunneling too hard if I kept trying to auto lynch you. Just keep up the activity and make sure we find scum ok?

@Seph: Step up yo activity

 

[vanderzant]

Oh to be clear I'll lynch either of Glyph/MK.

 

[M.K]

I was thinking you might of been town if Uber was scum, because there is no way in hell you'd but your scum buddy at L-1 without even reading the thread. You've also been lurking/skimming hardcore. I doubt town MK would be content to just joke around in Twilight. You had no sense of urgency after the Uber lynch. Yeah you've said you are busy and I just am struggling to see you as town.

Apologies for the lurking. Both the Poke Center and some family stuff were getting in the way.
However, I'd like to ask you about my logic for the Uber vote. You're saying that I would have been town if Uber had flipped scum, based on the fact that I wouldn't bus a scum partner. However, what are you basing this off of? If you're basing it off meta, I'd like you to note that I've bussed scum partners before, especially dead-weight scum partners. (i.e. Airgemini in Mario Kart Mafia). I think we can all assume that Uber was fairly dead weight through D1.
Also, would you not look towards the members on the Uber lynch (an easy one, wouldn't you think?) for your candidates? Let's face it, as a newbie in their first game, who could pass up an easy town lynch as scum, it was too easy.

I doubt town MK would be content to just joke around in Twilight.

In an open set-up, there is nothing else to do in Twilight besides wait for the flip.

Also, I want to note your contradictions. I'm not on the Town lynch, but I'm suspicious. Grump is on the town lynch, but you "feel better about him". Logic in these statements? Going off of the fact that any and all logical arguments pointing to Uber as scum are as-of-now moot, then trusting somebody through a night phase is not exactly logical.

In fact, I'd like to propose an alternative: Vand as scum.

Let's look at some facts from Day 1.

The Jailer Plan: Vanderzant was the first to suggest that the Jailer put his plans in BIG BOLD LETTERS. Albeit a very loose connection, in psychology, there is a term called the Hawthorne Effect, which states that subjects will differentiate their own actions when being observed or studied experimentally. This is a loose tie, but hear me out. Vanderzant was the first to propose to Tery that he should put his target in big letters. My feeling is, the very fact that Vanderzant was an IC and Tery was a newbie indicates that Tery would have been MUCH less likely to target Vanderzant than any other player in the game (which, through the processes of D1, was narrowed to an even slimmer group of individuals). Now, this plays to Vanderzant's advantage for one good reason: He knows he can safely kill anyone in the game, ignoring the Jailer's powers almost outright, since he now has the ability to dictate the actions of said Jailer.

As an aside, I also dislike how you downplayed the meta data received by Glyph. Clearly, in the amount of time between the game's start and Glyph's acquisition of the data, I doubt many (if any) aspects of the game were altered. It's mostly a null tell, but I highly doubt if you received the same PMs, you wouldn't also be inclined to raise them as a point of interest.

In addition to the above, I'd like to note a few personal observations. It's clear that Acrostic and myself had a back-and-forth argument near the middle of D1. It was basically "the hot topic" for a while. Now, I'm not simply going to note the fact that Vanderzant VERY LIGHTLY (if at all) touched this topic, but I'd also like to note Acrostic's hasty defense of Vanderzant through UberMario's last ditch effort to save himself. Points like this are noted in posts #522 and #552 .
Both Vander and Acrostic have the posting tendency to attack both GLYPH and MYSELF in the same posts. Noted:

@Meta-Kirby: You seemed to have stopped scum-hunting along with Glyph when it was proven that Terywj was the jailer and therefore not a mafia member. I would appreciate hearing some comments from you regarding the other players and who you find to be the best lynch candidates before the day is over. I feel that relying on vanderantz as an experienced player has caused the town to develop a polar reaction in terms of his actions. In lamest terms, a second opinion would help us out before the end of the day.

Ok lame Uber was town.

Vote: Meta-Kirby

I was thinking you might of been town if Uber was scum, because there is no way in hell you'd but your scum buddy at L-1 without even reading the thread. You've also been lurking/skimming hardcore. I doubt town MK would be content to just joke around in Twilight. You had no sense of urgency after the Uber lynch. Yeah you've said you are busy and I just am struggling to see you as town.

Also FoS Glyph because I still think he's scum too. Not entirely for the whole pm stuff, but his blatant tunnelling and what I feel to be lurking.

@Grump: Feeling slightly better about you. I'm not totally convinced you're town based on the couple of things I've outlined, but I think I'd be tunneling too hard if I kept trying to auto lynch you. Just keep up the activity and make sure we find scum ok?

@Seph: Step up yo activity

All of this as an aside to the fact that I can attest to the fact that this is my own town play, I am town, and Vanderzant is smarter than to accuse that it is not without me thinking there is an ulterior motive ; AKA being scum.

 

[M.K]

Please note my V/LA status. I will be gone from the 19th--24th. I don't actually know if I'll have internet or not in Aruba, but hopefully I'll see what I can do.

 

[M.K]

Oh and Acrostic, throughout Day 1, UberMario said his character, and you like...never acknowledged it. In fact, you continued to prod throughout the end for it, when it was stated in POST #525....

...you were still asking for it in posts #541 and #552.

 

[vanderzant]

However, I'd like to ask you about my logic for the Uber vote. You're saying that I would have been town if Uber had flipped scum, based on the fact that I wouldn't bus a scum partner. However, what are you basing this off of?

I think that if you were scum with Uber, you would of at least made a point of checking votes before deciding to put more pressure on him. I believe you (basically) putting him at L-1 was a legit mistake on your part. So I was working off the observation that you probably weren't mafia aligned with Uber.

If you're basing it off meta, I'd like you to note that I've bussed scum partners before, especially dead-weight scum partners. (i.e. Airgemini in Mario Kart Mafia). I think we can all assume that Uber was fairly dead weight through D1.
Also, would you not look towards the members on the Uber lynch (an easy one, wouldn't you think?) for your candidates? Let's face it, as a newbie in their first game, who could pass up an easy town lynch as scum, it was too easy.

Uber was pretty much established as a lynch before you even replaced in. No one would side with him (regardless of alignment) so no I'm not suggesting that you wouldn't bus him, I just didn't think at the time you were aligned with him if he was scum (weak connection, but still enough).

In terms of the lynch wagon, I think it's hard to garner much information from it really since Uber was (barring a drastic change in events) in my eyes getting lynched. This boils down to WIFOM regardless. Not being on the easy Day 1 town lynch as scum is just as valid a strategy as mafia (if you recall, I never ended up on the KirbyYoshi lynch in Avril Dgames as scum, and many people saw this as an indication of me being town).

For example, I think we're more likely to find scum by hitting the players who started lurking hardcore with a short time to the deadline. A no lynch is theoretically the best outcome for mafia.

If you believe there is scum on the wagon, please share with us, and why.

In an open set-up, there is nothing else to do in Twilight besides wait for the flip.

Considering you just lurked yesterDay, and I'd asked you several questions like "what you think of Seph?" and "Have you finished reading yet?" with no answer, I'm confused why you didn't attempt to catch up during this time.

Also, I want to note your contradictions. I'm not on the Town lynch, but I'm suspicious. Grump is on the town lynch, but you "feel better about him". Logic in these statements? Going off of the fact that any and all logical arguments pointing to Uber as scum are as-of-now moot, then trusting somebody through a night phase is not exactly logical.

My reasons for changes in suspicions are not based on the town flip of Uber.

I feel slightly worse about you because you never made a presence after Tery claimed Jailer, which was a **** long time.

I feel slightly better about Grump based on how he responded to me.

This is not a contradiction, as my thoughts are not related to the Uber flip.

In fact, I'd like to propose an alternative: Vand as scum.

Let's look at some facts from Day 1.

The Jailer Plan: Vanderzant was the first to suggest that the Jailer put his plans in BIG BOLD LETTERS. Albeit a very loose connection, in psychology, there is a term called the Hawthorne Effect, which states that subjects will differentiate their own actions when being observed or studied experimentally. This is a loose tie, but hear me out. Vanderzant was the first to propose to Tery that he should put his target in big letters. My feeling is, the very fact that Vanderzant was an IC and Tery was a newbie indicates that Tery would have been MUCH less likely to target Vanderzant than any other player in the game (which, through the processes of D1, was narrowed to an even slimmer group of individuals). Now, this plays to Vanderzant's advantage for one good reason: He knows he can safely kill anyone in the game, ignoring the Jailer's powers almost outright, since he now has the ability to dictate the actions of said Jailer.

Apart from the psycology thing being... a massive reach at portraying me negatively, if I were scum I would of already known Uber to flip town. I've said this earlier, but if Tery Jails scum, then the other mafia carries out the kill.

Also you're wrong, because I basically ENCOURAGED Tery to jail me if Uber flipped town. I said something like "pick someone you don't want to die." I believe Tery thought I was town at the time, so I would not at all be suprised if Tery did protect me.

As an aside, I also dislike how you downplayed the meta data received by Glyph. Clearly, in the amount of time between the game's start and Glyph's acquisition of the data, I doubt many (if any) aspects of the game were altered. It's mostly a null tell, but I highly doubt if you received the same PMs, you wouldn't also be inclined to raise them as a point of interest.

You're exactly right, If I had outside info I'd use it to the best of my ability as town or mafia. So it is a null tell, which is exactly why I downplayed it.

In addition to the above, I'd like to note a few personal observations. It's clear that Acrostic and myself had a back-and-forth argument near the middle of D1. It was basically "the hot topic" for a while. Now, I'm not simply going to note the fact that Vanderzant VERY LIGHTLY (if at all) touched this topic, but I'd also like to note Acrostic's hasty defense of Vanderzant through UberMario's last ditch effort to save himself. Points like this are noted in posts #522 and #552 .
Both Vander and Acrostic have the posting tendency to attack both GLYPH and MYSELF in the same posts. Noted:

I didn't see anything scummy come out of that argument. As I said, I believed it was likely to be T v T and that we should move on.

Yes I'm likely 99% sure that Acrostic is town, and was confused why you were arguing with him when he seems so obvtown to me.

All of this as an aside to the fact that I can attest to the fact that this is my own town play, I am town, and Vanderzant is smarter than to accuse that it is not without me thinking there is an ulterior motive ; AKA being scum.

Your ulterior motive is that you have made little effort to involve yourself in the game since you did your catch up reads, other then push Tery and defend yourself in your back and forth with Acrostic.

You haven't addressed things I believe to be much more crucial to scum hunting such as Glyph's blind tunneling on Tery, Grumps baiting thing and cautiousness.

Even in your last post, all you have done is defended yourself while simultaneously tried to flip accusations on me. I understand you say you have been busy, but when you have posted you've been selective and incredibly reactive which I believe to be scummy.

 

[M.K]

You haven't addressed things I believe to be much more crucial to scum hunting such as Glyph's blind tunneling on Tery, Grumps baiting thing and cautiousness.

This isn't all that I'd like to respond to at the moment, but "cautioness"? Really? Are we punishing cautiousness? Should we not punish buddying, which is what Acrostic was doing with you? If we're going down the list of unacceptable things to punish, you'll find many in this game Vand, that we shoud, be your definition, be looking at.
However, I'm interested in the Glyph part. Specifically about Glyph, what is your deal? He continued to push Tery until after the claim, or am I wrong in this assumption? If I'm not wrong, then yes, I agree its something to look at.

 

[M.K]

I think that if you were scum with Uber, you would of at least made a point of checking votes before deciding to put more pressure on him. I believe you (basically) putting him at L-1 was a legit mistake on your part. So I was working off the observation that you probably weren't mafia aligned with Uber.

Yes, the L-1 was a legitimate mistake.

Uber was pretty much established as a lynch before you even replaced in. No one would side with him (regardless of alignment) so no I'm not suggesting that you wouldn't bus him, I just didn't think at the time you were aligned with him if he was scum (weak connection, but still enough).

Yeah, I definitely did NOT get this vibe from my reread at all. He was always a backburner-type lynch candidate, but I definitely saw different pressure on alot of different people, namely Tery, throughout Day 1.

In terms of the lynch wagon, I think it's hard to garner much information from it really since Uber was (barring a drastic change in events) in my eyes getting lynched. This boils down to WIFOM regardless. Not being on the easy Day 1 town lynch as scum is just as valid a strategy as mafia (if you recall, I never ended up on the KirbyYoshi lynch in Avril Dgames as scum, and many people saw this as an indication of me being town).

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty much a WIFOM-filled argument of "what ifs".

For example, I think we're more likely to find scum by hitting the players who started lurking hardcore with a short time to the deadline. A no lynch is theoretically the best outcome for mafia.

You really need to explain this logic. You've got a town lynch sitting in front of you, and four players left alive that are on that wagon. I've got this lurking suspicion that you really don't want other players to be looking at the wagon, maybe exposing yourself, or possibly a scum buddy.

And lol gtfo with the "no lynch is the best option". Um, no it's not >_> Town lynch with night kill is the best. Obviously, which is why scum gains some benefits from staying around, and you're claim that it's "more likely to find scum in the lurkers" loses strength considerably when you consider the benefits rather than the risks.

If you believe there is scum on the wagon, please share with us, and why.

I'd love to see more investigation on players such as Ranmaru, yourself, and Acrostic. Honestly, I believe one scum lies in the above. If you're willing to believe that I'm town, I'd be very willing to investigate them because:

Ranmaru - Had very obscure logic in many of his actions. Alot of arguments were ended strangely, or contained various holes. The feeling of his "buddying of Tery" kinda disappeared after Tery was basically confirmed town, but later on, I kept seeing the same holey arguments against Uber.

Acrostic - Effort =/= Townie. Clearly, this should be commonplace. He very much held Uber's head underwater as he was about to be lynched. Continually asked for information, squeezed it out of people, but then gets on the defensive with me for doing the same, claiming its scummy to ask for so much.

Vand - explained above.

Also Sephiroth - Vand, are you not getting this weird feeling about him? He's playing very very loosely. I know you already chastised his activity, but even then, I think there is more to be seen from him. I really really need to look back at his actions.

Considering you just lurked yesterDay, and I'd asked you several questions like "what you think of Seph?" and "Have you finished reading yet?" with no answer, I'm confused why you didn't attempt to catch up during this time.

Eh, this is all my fault lol. I didn't mean to lurk, but I had a bunch of **** to do and couldn't find the time >_>;; I did catch up, though, I just didn't think it needed to be explicitly stated.

My reasons for changes in suspicions are not based on the town flip of Uber.

I feel slightly worse about you because you never made a presence after Tery claimed Jailer, which was a **** long time.

"After Tery claimed Jailer?" That's a stretch, Vand. I very much made a presence in the game after Tery claimed Jailer. The "damn long time" is definitely exaggerated.

I feel slightly better about Grump based on how he responded to me.

Elaborate?

This is not a contradiction, as my thoughts are not related to the Uber flip.

Yes, but I think you are outweighing the facts (who's on the flip, the flip, the night kill) with your own personal interpretation of people.

Apart from the psycology thing being... a massive reach at portraying me negatively, if I were scum I would of already known Uber to flip town. I've said this earlier, but if Tery Jails scum, then the other mafia carries out the kill.

Huh? It's always a hierarchy system when it comes to scum kills. Only very rarely is it "whoever you want". Besides, it's not the matter of WHO Tery ended up jailing, its the matter of the fact that you tried to dictate it.

Also you're wrong, because I basically ENCOURAGED Tery to jail me if Uber flipped town. I said something like "pick someone you don't want to die." I believe Tery thought I was town at the time, so I would not at all be suprised if Tery did protect me.

With you previous statement of "the other mafia could carry out the kill", this statements makes more sense, but does not excuse your action. You could have told Tery to protect you every night, because then you could get the other scum to carry out the kill, when you know full well that its usually a hierarchy system, one way or another.

You're exactly right, If I had outside info I'd use it to the best of my ability as town or mafia. So it is a null tell, which is exactly why I downplayed it.

Eh, but you're not treating it as a null tell. You're casting suspicion on Glyph for that exact reason, which defeats your claim that its a "null tell" at all.

I didn't see anything scummy come out of that argument. As I said, I believed it was likely to be T v T and that we should move on.

Yes I'm likely 99% sure that Acrostic is town, and was confused why you were arguing with him when he seems so obvtown to me.

I definitely don't see him so ObvTown, for real, and I don't see why you do either. You haven't provided this reasoning yet. Also, if you still believe it's TvT, why the vote? And if you ddi

Your ulterior motive is that you have made little effort to involve yourself in the game since you did your catch up reads, other then push Tery and defend yourself in your back and forth with Acrostic.

Blah, I'm never getting prodded again after this game lmao >_>;; Still, I think you are definitely exaggerating my absence in the game after Tery's claim. Besides, here you take add a little more from the "damn long time" by including my back and forth with Acrostic.

Even in your last post, all you have done is defended yourself while simultaneously tried to flip accusations on me. I understand you say you have been busy, but when you have posted you've been selective and incredibly reactive which I believe to be scummy.

Lol? I'm sorry that you put me on the defensive...? I mean, you're accusing me of being on the defensive when you're causing it. I'm not gonna just idly sit by while you throw accusations at me that I don't think are fully supported.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

This isn't all that I'd like to respond to at the moment, but "cautioness"? Really? Are we punishing cautiousness? Should we not punish buddying, which is what Acrostic was doing with you? If we're going down the list of unacceptable things to punish, you'll find many in this game Vand, that we shoud, be your definition, be looking at.
However, I'm interested in the Glyph part. Specifically about Glyph, what is your deal? He continued to push Tery until after the claim, or am I wrong in this assumption? If I'm not wrong, then yes, I agree its something to look at.

Wait, so its suspicious that I stopped trying to prove Tery was scum after he PROVED he was town?

And for the "lurking", I've still been hella busy. I'm trying to get a post in where I can, but after we botched that first lynch I wouldn't have my candidates for scum so set in stone.

 

[M.K]

why did I include that "until"...


it should read "He continued to push Tery after the claim".

which would be scummy.

In any case, my V/LA basically starts now (goin' to sleep in a few, then off to Aruba until like....Christmas basically) >_< I urge that if I'm actually a lynch candidate for the day, you wait until I get back before making any very bad decisions. Thanks!

 

[vanderzant]

"MK if you want don't respond to all of this post and instead do one of your scum lis

ts that's fine. This back in forth is boring and we're arguing over dumb stuff"

This isn't all that I'd like to respond to at the moment, but "cautioness"? Really? Are we punishing cautiousness? Should we not punish buddying, which is what Acrostic was doing with you? If we're going down the list of unacceptable things to punish, you'll find many in this game Vand, that we shoud, be your definition, be looking at.

These were just examples. "Cautiousness" is like a title for what I was yelling at Grump for yesterDay >.<. Just read what I said about that. It's more like "unwilling to take a stance" if we're being specific, but go see what I actually said.

Should we not punish buddying? Wtf kind of question is that.? I think Acrostic's town so yeah I'll buddy him all I want. Explain to the class why buddying like that is scummy.

However, I'm interested in the Glyph part. Specifically about Glyph, what is your deal? He continued to push Tery until after the claim, or am I wrong in this assumption? If I'm not wrong, then yes, I agree its something to look at.

All he did yesterDay was push Tery. That's it. He didn't even address anyone else unless spoken to. He hasn't outlined ANY other scum suspects and I know he's V/LA but I'm struggling to figure out if what he's done is actually scummy or just newbie.

Yeah, I definitely did NOT get this vibe from my reread at all. He was always a backburner-type lynch candidate, but I definitely saw different pressure on alot of different people, namely Tery, throughout Day 1.

Day 1 lynch is almost always the most useless/inactive player unless Town has there sight set on scum. So yeah there was a lot of pressure flying around but really it seemed obvious (at least to me) that Uber was going unless he posted some sort of content.

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty much a WIFOM-filled argument of "what ifs".

Yep.

You really need to explain this logic. You've got a town lynch sitting in front of you, and four players left alive that are on that wagon. I've got this lurking suspicion that you really don't want other players to be looking at the wagon, maybe exposing yourself, or possibly a scum buddy.

Lol didn't we just agree that it's a WIFOM-filled argument >.>. Feel free to look at the wagon, I'm not stopping you, I just think I've got better leads and they all coincidentally were hella inactive at the end of yesterDay.

And lol gtfo with the "no lynch is the best option". Um, no it's not >_> Town lynch with night kill is the best. Obviously, which is why scum gains some benefits from staying around, and you're claim that it's "more likely to find scum in the lurkers" loses strength considerably when you consider the benefits rather than the risks.

Lol no u gtfo. Didn't we just finish a game where Town "no lynched" Day 1 and 2? And then what happened Day 3 and 4? Oh that's right, town lynched two players they should of gone on the first 2 days, essentially giving scum 2 free Night Kills.

If Uber wasn't lynched yesterDay I'm willing to bet 500000 dollars that he'd be lynched toDay or at least before MYLO/LYLO. You can't argue that lynching Uber yesterDay was the best outcome for mafia.

Again, it's WIFOM but mafia don't exactly look great lynching town either.

I'd love to see more investigation on players such as Ranmaru, yourself, and Acrostic. Honestly, I believe one scum lies in the above. If you're willing to believe that I'm town, I'd be very willing to investigate them because:

I disagree and think it's more likely we're all town, but go on.

Ranmaru - Had very obscure logic in many of his actions. Alot of arguments were ended strangely, or contained various holes. The feeling of his "buddying of Tery" kinda disappeared after Tery was basically confirmed town, but later on, I kept seeing the same holey arguments against Uber.

I agree his thoughts are pretty loose, but I see intent to contribute and don't equate "obscurity" as neccesarily scummy. If you were going to argue that he's scummy I'd outline that he's been fairly passive... or his early shift in opinions that he showed (went from voting me for little reasoning to backing off and acting friendly), etc. But I think his attempts to scum hunt have been somewhat genuine, esp in comparison to others.

Acrostic - Effort =/= Townie. Clearly, this should be commonplace. He very much held Uber's head underwater as he was about to be lynched. Continually asked for information, squeezed it out of people, but then gets on the defensive with me for doing the same, claiming its scummy to ask for so much.

If you'd labelled the same sentence and attached Grump's name I would of highly agreed with you. Also when were you squeezing info out of Uber? (if that's what you're implying). I agree Effort = Null but I got significant townie vibes from some of his earlier thought processes, I'll hunt them down and explain if neccesary, but for now Acrostic is not a play and I'm not even going there.

Also Sephiroth - Vand, are you not getting this weird feeling about him? He's playing very very loosely. I know you already chastised his activity, but even then, I think there is more to be seen from him. I really really need to look back at his actions.

I asked you about him like a zilliion times yesterDay (ok, twice maybe) but you never told me anything.

I initially thought his play was better than the one game I've seen his Day 1 scum play (this is pre you replacing in I think FYI) but now I'm not so sure. He lurked hardcore when he was scum, but I figured you'd played with him a bit before so I wanted to see if he lined up with your meta. If you manage to convince me you aren't scum and explain how he plays as scum and why he's doing so here, then yeah I'd probably lynch him.

That's why he was in the awesome yellow category with you.

Eh, this is all my fault lol. I didn't mean to lurk, but I had a bunch of **** to do and couldn't find the time >_>;; I did catch up, though, I just didn't think it needed to be explicitly stated.

If you're lying about this I'm going to be so salty in post game. Just saying.

"After Tery claimed Jailer?" That's a stretch, Vand. I very much made a presence in the game after Tery claimed Jailer. The "damn long time" is definitely exaggerated.

Still you have lacked in presence which I don't like.

Elaborate?

This is not a contradiction, as my thoughts are not related to the Uber flip.

Yes, but I think you are outweighing the facts (who's on the flip, the flip, the night kill) with your own personal interpretation of people.

Not sure what you're getting at, but my thoughts really aren't at all influenced by the Uber flip. Except that I didn't think you two were a scum team.

I don't think that because Glyph/you/whoever weren't on the wagon = you guys are scum
I don't think that because Me/other dudes lynched Uber = we are town

I don't find the flip info to particularly influence my reads, and that is not my intention. Most of my thoughts I've given carry from Day 1 (which you should go back and tell me if you agree/disagree/why? later on)

Huh? It's always a hierarchy system when it comes to scum kills. Only very rarely is it "whoever you want". Besides, it's not the matter of WHO Tery ended up jailing, its the matter of the fact that you tried to dictate it.

To be quite frank my reasoning for dictating Tery's action was
1. To make sure he didn't **** up and Jail someone obvtown (to me at least) if Uber flipped scum, which was highly likely to me at the time. His role was to either catch scum or clear someone who was giving me a head ache. He also didn't seem to really know what he was doing.
2. To ensure that he was still enough of a threat to mafia that they still had to kill him. If he just idled (like Grump was suggesting at one point) then mafia have no reason to really kill him, and can just kill people like me off and watch as the activity goes to zero.

Might sound selfish, and yeah I did basically force him to act in a way that mafia is forced to kill him, but he wasn't exactly the strongest scum hunter/asset to town (and Tery if you're reading this I mean this as nicely as possible <3).

With you previous statement of "the other mafia could carry out the kill", this statements makes more sense, but does not excuse your action. You could have told Tery to protect you every night, because then you could get the other scum to carry out the kill, when you know full well that its usually a hierarchy system, one way or another.

???

Eh, but you're not treating it as a null tell. You're casting suspicion on Glyph for that exact reason, which defeats your claim that its a "null tell" at all.

No I'm not. I've said many times that I'm not going to treat that role pm stuff as indicative of Glyph's alignment. I'm saying Glyph is scum for other reasons.

I definitely don't see him so ObvTown, for real, and I don't see why you do either. You haven't provided this reasoning yet. Also, if you still believe it's TvT, why the vote? And if you ddi

"believed" and "was" = past tense. I've of flipped a bit with your alignment. I'll give reasoning for Acrostic another time if it's needed/neccesary.

Blah, I'm never getting prodded again after this game lmao >_>;; Still, I think you are definitely exaggerating my absence in the game after Tery's claim. Besides, here you take add a little more from the "damn long time" by including my back and forth with Acrostic.

Who cares? You got prodded.

Lol? I'm sorry that you put me on the defensive...? I mean, you're accusing me of being on the defensive when you're causing it. I'm not gonna just idly sit by while you throw accusations at me that I don't think are fully supported.

I know I've put you on the defensive, but I'd much prefer you be telling me who you think is scum (and detailed, not just telling me I'm scum because I wouldn't be pushing you if I were town or whatever).

If I weren't tired as **** and hadn't spent so long writing this post I'd go find the last post where you actually addressed someone who hadn't already said that you were suspect to them, and that isn't Tery. I think it was ages ago tbh.

Seriously dude, when you're town you're constantly pointing out stuff (even if it's little) that you don't like and raging over it and trying to convince town to lynch these players. Like in villains you were constantly like "HOLY **** GORD WTF IS THIS?? YOU ARE SO SCUM!!!!" I see none of that here, instead you're just sitting back responding to stuff that's coming your way. Like maybe it's because you've been out of it with being busy and all but I seriously don't think I'm unjustified in being suspicious of you.

 

[vanderzant]

Merry Xmas and enjoy your holiday ^.^

People other than MK and I need to post.

Or I'm going to lose it.

 

[ranmaru]

Right, I agree with Vandie. I mean, I have said before that MK hadn't replied to my responses. He didn't respond much until after Uber was hammered. He even came in asking for the hammer.

My 'buddying' of tery was simply me relating to another newbie player. I was making the same mistakes as he. I did ask him questions at times, but he did receive alot of pressure, which discouraged him and caused him to reveal his role.

Uber, didn't understand my post that I was trying to make sure I wouldn't hammer him by accident, and so I first asked for a mod vote count. (Then I saw one at the top of the page, so I counted from there)

How were my thoughts Loose, then? @Vandie, MK Please, point them out so I can defend them, or see my error. One needs others to point things out that they can't notice.

 

[vanderzant]

^ More so your posting style if anything. Sometimes I have to read your posts a couple times to understand what you mean. But I don't think it's scummy and I'm sure MK will tell you what's up.

Will you lynch Glyph with me Ran? Who should we lynch first, MK/Glyph or someone else?

 

[ranmaru]

Glyph seems the most scummy to me since he did tunnel on Tery.

Grump, is using being manipulated somewhat, but I still think he is town because town can be manipulated as well.

Mk I feel regardless of his alignment, that he'd pressure any newbie alike, so it seems he may town. But he does avoid some responses, is this some technique so the spotlight can be focused on one individual? But although he may be v/la now.

Need to see more of Acrostic's/Seph's to get a good read on them.

So I can agree with a Glyph Lynch.

What do you guys think?

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

This post is to address the points that were directed to me.

Oh and Acrostic, throughout Day 1, UberMario said his character, and you like...never acknowledged it. In fact, you continued to prod throughout the end for it, when it was stated in POST #525.... ...you were still asking for it in posts #541 and #552.

That was a horrible mistake on my part. On another forum board I frequent there is a user named TofuYoshi who plays IRC mafia and 24-hour setup forum board mafia. I usually call him Yoshi. I will admit that this was a complete slip on my part and wished that someone would have caught me on it. I believe that such a slip should warrant consideration. It was a massive mistake. I apologize.

In addition to the above, I'd like to note a few personal observations. It's clear that Acrostic and myself had a back-and-forth argument near the middle of D1. It was basically "the hot topic" for a while. Now, I'm not simply going to note the fact that Vanderzant VERY LIGHTLY (if at all) touched this topic, but I'd also like to note Acrostic's hasty defense of Vanderzant through UberMario's last ditch effort to save himself. Points like this are noted in posts #522 and #552.

The only reason why "haste" was employed was because haste was needed. Lynch was coming and UberMario was sorely lacking in participation. I will admit that I wanted something convincing from UberMario besides Vand refutation on standard IC play. If he had brought up a point on Vand downplaying Glyph's sincerity to role claim then I would hold that as being immensely more valuable than his character claim. I will admit that I made a stupid mistake by completely missing the character claim and feel guilty about this slip.

Both Vander and Acrostic have the posting tendency to attack both GLYPH and MYSELF in the same posts. Noted:

I thought there was a serious MK - Glyph connection as both of you seemed to synchronized in your attack on Terry. In addition you and Glyph both have sporadic on and off behavior which still makes me connect you two in the back of my mind. Even though I'm still suspicious of other users, content post and behavioral relationships seemedto portray the both of you as being scum.

I am aware of the fact that Vander has nearly complete faith that I'm town which sometimes makes me suspicious of his alignment. However he provides the town a direction and actively scum hunts (albeit he falls short sometimes i.e. Glyph role reveal). I've requested that you comment on Vand's behavior as it is hard for me to discern his alignment and was hoping that your experience with his scum play could be an asset towards helping us out as you have told us that you are eager to win this for town. It is unfortunate that such an analysis had to come AFTER Vand voted for you rather than you willingly participate in the process.

This isn't all that I'd like to respond to at the moment, but "cautioness"? Really? Are we punishing cautiousness? Should we not punish buddying, which is what Acrostic was doing with you? If we're going down the list of unacceptable things to punish, you'll find many in this game Vand, that we shoud, be your definition, be looking at.

Vand is the only one who has responded to me consistently and frequently. It is hard to formulate counter-thoughts on your conversation buddy during D1 without any results to go off on. I don't understand why you find such associations 'unacceptable'. By their very nature such associations should be beneficial towards catching scum. I'm not sure whether using charged words such as 'punish' is appropriate in this situation. IC analysis is valued, however you must understand the irony that your tunneling is directed at the core individuals who would be affected by the results of such a tunnel.

Acrostic - Effort =/= Townie. Clearly, this should be commonplace. He very much held Uber's head underwater as he was about to be lynched. Continually asked for information, squeezed it out of people, but then gets on the defensive with me for doing the same, claiming its scummy to ask for so much.

Aside from the Yoshi slip, I wanted to save UberMario if he was town. If I hadn't done anything it is likely that he would have been lynched with Vand, Grump, and Ran. The reason why I asked for information was because I wanted to clear him before the day end. Yes. I realize how stupid it was for me to get the character claim and then to have messed it up in the end. However I only applied pressure because D1 was nearing the end and I needed really solid results to change my mind. I was simply doing my best at attempting to secure a townie before lynch came. 'Head underwater' is quite a cruel choice of words.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Man my timing in this game has been horrendous. Right as I finish pushing Tery (tunneling?), my free time dries up entirely. Its not going to be getting much better for a while either, but I'm still going to try to at least follow this game.

 

[ranmaru]

Dude. He's already at L-2.

Vandie stated to you "Acrostic if you are fine with an Uber lynch I'd put him at L-2. Tery you can announce your target for if Uber flips mafia and put him at L-1." and you only said that he was at L-2, and didn't say anything more.

Yeah Tery you can just hammer if you want.

Here Van told Tery he could hammer if he wanted, and you didn't say Nay or anything.

Aside from the Yoshi slip, I wanted to save UberMario if he was town. If I hadn't done anything it is likely that he would have been lynched with Vand, Grump, and Ran. The reason why I asked for information was because I wanted to clear him before the day end. Yes. I realize how stupid it was for me to get the character claim and then to have messed it up in the end. However I only applied pressure because D1 was nearing the end and I needed really solid results to change my mind. I was simply doing my best at attempting to secure a townie before lynch came. 'Head underwater' is quite a cruel choice of words.

Ok, you say this, but you didn't really post anything that mentioned your regret that he was not saved or he was lynched without you being able to say more about him.


You say if it wasn't for your efforts Uber would have been lynched, but he was, and included with your vote. Please, explain.

 

[vanderzant]

@Acrostic: As you may have noticed I tend to exaggerate things a lot, usually for the purpose of emphasis. If you flipped mafia I wouldn't be like "omg no wai that's impossible!" I'd be like "Wow GG, I was a bit off." Also what do you mean by the Glyph role reveal? Are we still in disagreement on that lol. I think it's irrelevant, but I'm still down to lynch him toDay.

Who would you rather lynch first out of MK/Glyph/Seph someone different?

@mod: Request prod on Seph

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Yo X1, sorry for doing this a second time, but I'm going to replace out.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Vandie stated to you "Acrostic if you are fine with an Uber lynch I'd put him at L-2. Tery you can announce your target for if Uber flips mafia and put him at L-1." and you only said that he was at L-2, and didn't say anything more.

He miscounted which I found was strange. I wanted to clear things up if it was a mistake.

Here Van told Tery he could hammer if he wanted, and you didn't say Nay or anything.

Should I have said something? Before that I went through arm and leg to get UberMario to participate. You must understand that I was a bit exasperated at the fact that I tried to get him to really push out but his last response was kind of like 'meh, I dunno' which is not what you say when you are on the verge of getting lynched. It seems like you're trying to accuse me of not trying hard enough for UberMario which is odd since you didn't do much either in order to validate his town role before you decided to vote. I would appreciate your comments on why you didn't reconsider retracting your vote or helping me out if you are going to pay so much attention to the end of the day.

Ok, you say this, but you didn't really post anything that mentioned your regret that he was not saved or he was lynched without you being able to say more about him.

I didn't realize I missed his claim until I read MK's post.

You say if it wasn't for your efforts Uber would have been lynched, but he was, and included with your vote. Please, explain.

I'm not sure which comment you're attempting to reference, but you've done a pretty poor job in wording it correctly. I attempted to clear Uber of town so that we wouldn't mislynch a townie. I tried to get Glyph involved so we could certify his claim and I tried to certify Glyph by checking with Tery in order to work out that claim. Therefore Glyph certified could possibly mean Uber certified if Glyph had the corresponding role pm. I tried my best to prevent him being lynched.

Some of the things I have noted off your play Ranmaru is that you tend to ask us how we are feeling a lot of the time. It seems like you are trying to gain acceptance from town on decisions you are considering and decisions you have already considered. It is a scum tell on the part of mafia to probe town and ask them how they feel about certain decisions that are made in order for them to make appropriate decisions in return. The fact that you have been doing this on a consistent basis in addition to the fact that you are attempting to cast a shadow of a doubt on me when you have suspicions of Glyph make me suspect of your alignment. To be quite honest, I believe that you are the play for today.

Vote: Ranmaru

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

@Acrostic: As you may have noticed I tend to exaggerate things a lot, usually for the purpose of emphasis. If you flipped mafia I wouldn't be like "omg no wai that's impossible!" I'd be like "Wow GG, I was a bit off." Also what do you mean by the Glyph role reveal? Are we still in disagreement on that lol. I think it's irrelevant, but I'm still down to lynch him toDay.

I would ask that you stop exaggerating as I take your words at face value. If you feel "99%" convinced that I'm town, then I don't want to see you retract that statement if I find you suspicious and decide to vote you later on. It is a convenient excuse for you to say, 'My bad. Acrostic is awfully scummy now. 99%? I meant .99% hahahaha.'

I think it is pretty relevant. Assuming Glyph was town, then he could be an asset in clearing characters and affirming other townspeople. I am surprised that no one made a big deal out of it. I think that lynching him would be a rushed decision. There is the possibility of him being mafia, however I don't believe that mafia would rely on a meta-data excuse like, 'Dat role pms' and expect to get away with it. If I were mafia, the move I would make for the day would be to get rid of Glyph.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Vanderzant talk to me baby.

 

[vanderzant]

I would ask that you stop exaggerating as I take your words at face value. If you feel "99%" convinced that I'm town, then I don't want to see you retract that statement if I find you suspicious and decide to vote you later on. It is a convenient excuse for you to say, 'My bad. Acrostic is awfully scummy now. 99%? I meant .99% hahahaha.'

I think it is pretty relevant. Assuming Glyph was town, then he could be an asset in clearing characters and affirming other townspeople. I am surprised that no one made a big deal out of it. I think that lynching him would be a rushed decision. There is the possibility of him being mafia, however I don't believe that mafia would rely on a meta-data excuse like, 'Dat role pms' and expect to get away with it. If I were mafia, the move I would make for the day would be to get rid of Glyph.

In no way am I retracting that I think you're town. I stand by what I've said in that regard.

How has Glyph been an asset in regards to having this info? From what I've gathered so far it hasn't helped us lynch scum, only semi confirmed that Peach + Jailer added up, which ended up being near useless because no one counter claimed. The mod also specificly stated that any wrongly recieved pm's have likely been changed.

You're also coming from the stand point that Glyph is town, in assuming that he will be able to clear other townies. He can just as easily lie and manipulate as scum with any info he claims to have.

You need to look at the situation away from the role pm info stuff and realise that it's foolish to rely upon it. We don't know that any info that Glyph has received will have not been changed.

What we DO know is that the game will be set up in a way that flavour can not be relied upon to find scum (i.e. mafia will have safe claims).

Curiously, if you had received other role pm's by mistake, assuming you're town would you of kept on to the info like Glyph did or put it out in the open straight away?

 

[vanderzant]

EBWOP: not "likely changed" but "possibly changed" or whatever he said.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I character claim Luigi. To paraphrase, I like to follow my brother Mario around the Mushroom Kingdom. I have breadcrumbed this role by my critique of VG Cats that Vanderzant posted in #46 and further alluded to it in #132 when I stated that I'm taking over my brother's laundry and "jumped" into his new job. I role claim tracker. I followed Vanderzant last night and saw that he visited Terywj.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Right. I completely forgot.

Unvote Vote: Vanderzant

 

[vanderzant]

Oh cool we can just wait for a counter claim then.

I really thought you were town btw.

Unless you're joking ofc.

 

[vanderzant]

Actually this is some seriously twisted joke.

Why would the town tracker with a guilty result on me come in and say Ran is the play, then decide to switch to me like an hour later? Why not try and get me lynched in the first place, or try to figure who I would be scum aligned with?

I call shenanigans.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Actually this is some seriously twisted joke.

Why would the town tracker with a guilty result on me come in and say Ran is the play, then decide to switch to me like an hour later? Why not try and get me lynched in the first place, or try to figure who I would be scum aligned with?

I call shenanigans.

I wanted to see who your scum partner might be, but you made it pretty easy for me by targeting Meta-Kirby and Glyph. Therefore I am fairly confident that they are town. Then you offered to lynch Sephiroth's Masamune. So I can feel fairly safe about him too. Also since you generally don't like Grump and think that he is scum, I can take Grump as a fairly safe town claim as well. I would say that mafia partners are basically you and Ranmaru. I'm not sure if you tried to sneak anyone in there, but I'd say that this game is pretty much a confirmed town win.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

To be perfectly frank, I think its absolutely ridiculous how sold some of you all are on me being scum for persecuting Tery. I ask you, look at the posts I made towards him Day 1. Look at the points I brought up. You may notice no one really arguing against them because they are legit points. Tery had multiple posts that led me to believe he was scum, and when he proved me wrong by claiming Peach and Jailer, that was the end of it. I don't remember who said it here, but the interesting thing about mafia is you don't know anyone's alignment until after the mod reveals the truth, but some of you seem to have already labeled me as scum for inactivity. If bad timing is a scum tell, then I don't really understand this game.

Now, this particular post I had some particular issues with. My comments in red.

How has Glyph been an asset in regards to having this info? From what I've gathered so far it hasn't helped us lynch scum, only semi confirmed that Peach + Jailer added up, which ended up being near useless because no one counter claimed. The mod also specificly stated that any wrongly recieved pm's have likely been changed.

SEMI confirmed?! Take a look a few pages back, you'll see that Tery was killed overnight. And what's this? Its Peach, the Jailer! And while you may deem it "near worthless" that I went after all the information I could from a person before I decided if they should be lynched, but it also saved him from being one of the major suspects of the day. Yes, I do wish I had done it differently knowing that I would be outing the Jailer, but I maintain that his posts were bad enough to merit investigation to the best of my abilities.

You're also coming from the stand point that Glyph is town, in assuming that he will be able to clear other townies. He can just as easily lie and manipulate as scum with any info he claims to have.

Down to the tiniest details of the role PM? That would requite quite a bit of luck there, as well as someone to confirm it is an actual role. Seems like a stretch to me.


You need to look at the situation away from the role pm info stuff and realise that it's foolish to rely upon it. We don't know that any info that Glyph has received will have not been changed.

Oh so when something is confirmed to be true that I claimed (peach=jailer) by the mod of the game, its foolish to trust what I say now? Now that seems kinda odd. If I'm not mistaken (and I know I'm not, I'm looking at the post right now), you yourself said "The mod also specificly stated that any wrongly recieved pm's have likely been changed"

A very strong, confident statement until the very end there, where you put that little "likely" in there. So while the role PMs very well may have been changed, the one I had was dead on. Only change I'm aware of is that the person receiving it changed.


What we DO know is that the game will be set up in a way that flavour can not be relied upon to find scum (i.e. mafia will have safe claims).

Like vanilla townie? Seems like then we'd just have to ask what Mario universe character, and watch for the counterclaim. We've already seen Peach and Yoshi, I would bet Mario, Luigi, Bowser, mainstream characters like that should probably show up as well. If someone were to claim to be Goomba, the Vanilla Townie, I would be a bit suspicious of that.

Curiously, if you had received other role pm's by mistake, assuming you're town would you of kept on to the info like Glyph did or put it out in the open straight away?

Do you have an issue with the way I handled that, or are you just wondering how Acrostic would have handled the same situation?