Social Mario Hotel - Super Social 4

[HeroMystic]

Does anyone know where we can view those matches of Ally?

http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/v/3591350

5:32:44 Ally vs M2K
6:55:00 Ally vs NAKAT
7:32:00 Ally vs Will

----

So after watching the matches (in fact I would recommend watching the Top 8 matches. They're all really good), I have some things to say about Mario.

I'm gonna be honest, Ally hasn't done anything that I haven't found out in the lab. He simply played Mario and used his fundamentals very well. Honestly, this makes me glad because it lines up perfectly with how I opened in The Metagame Thread. Ally did not worry about comboing everything. He simply played patient, reacted to openings, and punished accordingly. He even used F-throw to increase edgeguarding opportunities (the commentators didn't really understand this, saying he should have used D-throw instead, but DI only allows D-throw > U-air to work and that is seriously not worth it), and used B-throw to increase damage when he knew that attack strings were not an option.

There are some mistakes Ally made that could have allowed him to string more true combos (he kept missing D-throw > F-air for instance), but overall I have complete respect for Ally's Mario because it matches almost perfectly with how I play Mario, just more refined and experienced.

He also confirms that U-Smash is really ****ing good. F-Smash is only usable for hard reads, but U-Smash makes up for that for being extremely reliable for ledge pressure and baiting during edgeguards. In fact, edgeguarding and corner pressure seems to be the biggest factor in Smash 4 right now.

FLUDD and Fireball are also very important for edgeguarding because they stop horizontal movement, forcing characters to recover vertically, allowing Mario to go for stage spikes or nerfing recoveries with Cape. This allows Mario to have less of a disadvantage against Diddy Kong (who doesn't seem to be a dominant force in this game anymore after watching that Top 8 bracket).

So yeah, Mario definitely has less tools than he did in Brawl, but looking at it from the perspective of Smash 4, Mario is definitely a strong contender due to the Smash 4 Engine and the majority of characters getting balanced out. I still don't believe he's top/high tier though. In fact, I'm expecting major revisions of tier lists in the coming months. Rosalina is probably going to fall out of Top Tier while Ness, Shulk, and DK will absolutely rise up, Diddy Kong won't be seen as an S-Tier anymore either. So, I'm still going to wait and see before calling out a tier for Mario. But, I am going to agree and say Mario is a good character and a solid contender in this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly...the way M2K plays, I can't take him seriously. He's playing Diddy like he plays Melee Marth, and it's no surprise that Ally is able to punish that easily. But even considering that Ally outclasses M2K pretty blatantly in terms of overall fundamentals, M2K still makes him work. Sure, we can argue Diddy is broken. But I believe Ally has outpaced M2K to the point where he should be JV 2stocking him consistently. But he's held back by Mario who just isn't scary.

NAKAT played more solid than M2K aside from getting disrespectful towards Mario's U-smash for seemingly no reason in key moments. I mean sure...I've argued forever that Mario's U-smash is an amazing move since Brawl. But I find it almost hilarious the situations where they're literally handed to Ally. Most of the time NAKAT played I felt Mario was very outclassed. Ness also has frame tight guaranteed combos out of throws that just simply do more damage than Mario's, and safer juggle options with PKT and of course the B-throw of death which Mario has nothing on.

Also, too many people are afraid to simply just trade with Mario's Up-B with any random N-air. It's not even hard to time, and it kills Mario.

Will actually played the matchup correctly, just edgeguarding Mario directly and punishing Ally for committing to D-throw, and forced Ally to switch to Shulk. Like, I'm not surprised Will made it to Grand Finals, as everyone has known he's generally speaking a top caliber player who committed to a character main. But the fact Ally and Will are in grand finals doesn't say that either Mario or Donkey Kong are great characters in this game. Rather, it just proves that those two players have always been a cut above almost everyone else.

I find it hilarious that the commentators keep trying to overrate Mario D-throw, when Ally in fact was making the right choice with F-throw -> Fireball which I've promoted like what, YEARS AGO.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's no surprise Will played the match-up correctly. He plays KirinBlaze's Mario, whom I see as slightly better than Ally's Mario. I knew Will would wreck Ally's Mario just due to that. So I'm not surprised Ally had to switch to Shulk to even it out (also dat counter to end the set. So sexy).

I'll also agree and say the commentators really should have just kept tight-lipped when Ally was correctly using F-throw to keep his corner advantage. Not to mention F-throw deals more damage by itself. They really had no idea what they were talking about.

But the fact Ally and Will are in grand finals doesn't say that either Mario or Donkey Kong are great characters in this game. Rather, it just proves that those two players have always been a cut above almost everyone else.

I'll agree with one thing. Ally getting to the finals with Mario is more a testament to Ally than it is to Mario. However, it also means character viability is a lot stronger in this game, and sticking with a main is much more viable in this game than it was in Brawl or even Melee.

For example. Will played a Shiek ditto, and got decisively manhandled, but switching to DK made the match a lot more even, or even better for him. Does this mean Will suck with Shiek? No, it means he has a lot more match-up knowledge and experience with DK. He knows how to cover DK's weaknesses (the comeback vs NAKAT's Ness was pretty amazing after he got bodied in Winner's Semis against him), and he knows how to utilize his strengths. Ally stuck with Mario the entire until Grand Finals when he busted out Shulk to seal the deal. Therefore, this means Mario is tournament viable, and so is DK.

We'll see how the game develops in the coming months. Right now everyone still has to get out of the habit of shielding everything and getting grabbed because of it. But so far I have good hopes that the character roster is balanced and the gap between tiers can be covered by player skill, like an actual fighting game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah honestly, I'm slightly more surprised that KirinBlaze isn't just outright wrecking more tournaments. That guy is also kinda ridiculously unreal when he's on his game.

 

[BSP]

SNIP

Agree with everything you said.

Still don't see Mario as high tier, but I'll put him right in the middle now. Going hard for the combo moves seems to be inferior to maintaining stage control, getting grabs, and hitting with Mario's moves that actually do good %. Oh, and edgeguarding + Usmash being extremely solid.

I'm surprised Ally didn't just falling nair into NAKAT's thunder when he had him under the stage in that one match.

NAKAT played more solid than M2K aside from getting disrespectful towards Mario's U-smash for seemingly no reason in key moments. I mean sure...I've argued forever that Mario's U-smash is an amazing move since Brawl. But I find it almost hilarious the situations where they're literally handed to Ally. Most of the time NAKAT played I felt Mario was very outclassed. Ness also has frame tight guaranteed combos out of throws that just simply do more damage than Mario's, and safer juggle options with PKT and of course the B-throw of death which Mario has nothing on.
.

All of this is correct though and what will keep Mario out of high tier. All of the top characters have some factor about them that gives them some "oomph" that Mario lacks. He's solid, but I don't seem him passing up the others.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Still don't see Mario as high tier, but I'll put him right in the middle now. Going hard for the combo moves seems to be inferior to maintaining stage control, getting grabs, and hitting with Mario's moves that actually do good %. Oh, and edgeguarding + Usmash being extremely solid.

I still feel horribly misled when people try to argue to me that Mario's combo game really makes up for anything.

Still find it funny that Ally ends up going for F-throw a lot. Late into Brawl's competitive life, most of us realized it was Mario's most underrated move. Decent damage throw that most importantly has ridiculously low ending lag, which actually is a pretty big deal for being in position to edgeguard. There's a reason why I got really obsessive long ago about hyping F-throw->Fireball, because as dumb and simple as it sounds, it's actually kinda seriously good especially when your opponent actively tries to avoid the fireball.

 

[BSP]

Ally still needs to charge FLUDD immediately

at 7:30ish in those matches, he missed a KO opportunity at 25%.

Later in the match, Will up B'd to center stage and no FLUDD.

It hurts me.

 

[Haahp]

You guys... that up B to take game 3 on M2K was fantastic. Also i watched a youtube set of KirinBlaze last week and thought he was absolutely fantastic. So fun to watch/learn from.

 

[Inferno3044]

A2, maybe I really need to be clearer on what I'm trying to say. Smash 4 Mario in Smash 4 is better than Brawl Mario in Brawl. Whether it's mechanics or meta or whatever other reason you wanna put in, Mario is a better character in Smash 4 than in Brawl. Yes the high tiers were much better than the low tiers, but Mario was low tier. He was bad. He didn't do much damage in Brawl either. Mario can compete with the cast in this game. He is better in this game. I really don't know how to make it sound simpler than this.

Also, if you win a 100+ man tourney, the characters that won them mean something. As soon as Brood got 2nd at Apex with Olimar, he got a massive boost. So yes, I believe this tournament shows how good both Mario and DK are in this game. I will address one point though that I actually want to discuss:

There's basically like...five or so characters from Brawl that got straight buffed if you don't factor general system changes. Yoshi, Ike, Jigglypuff, Link, and Captain Falcon all have clear number buffs or changes to specific moves that significantly add to their options. Some characters changed less and got amplified hard by system changes (Ganondorf, Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Sonic), and the rest of the cast effectively got universally slapped by damage nerfs, landing lag nerfs, and removal of options like Jab canceling and strong throw combos.

Mario's nerfs do not outweigh his benefits from system changes, or the few obscure buffs he got.

My 3DS is open right now. I will list every character I believe got buffed and nerfed. Mario is not placed because we disagree.

Buff: Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, DK, Diddy, Link, Zelda, Shiek, Ganondorf, Ike, Fox, Charizard, Lucario, Jigglybuff, ROB, Ness, Captain Falcon, Sonic (he can kill with b-throw really low)
Nerf: Wario, G&W, Samus(?), Marth, MK, Falco, Olimar
Don't know (mostly due to lack of knowledge): Peach (might be buffed), Toon Link, Pit, ZSS, Kirby, King Dedede, Pikachu (might be buffed)

Yes, some of these buffs are large (Yoshi, Ness, Sonic, Lucario) while other buffs are smaller (Ganon, Fox, Charizard, ROB). MK, Falco, Olimar got nerfed and Snake + ICs aren't in the game, so the top placings will by default be different. That doesn't mean the majority of the cast got nerfed. Different things work in this game and therefore certain characters do better/worse. It's like saying ICs got nerfed from melee to Brawl because they can't wave dash.

The bold is what I've been trying to say, so thanks for saying I'm right. I'm not discussing any more on this forum. If you really want to discuss more, let's do it somewhere else 1 on 1. Walls aren't my thing anymore.

So NAKAT apparently you name search yourself. Do you play Mario? If you do, $5 ditto?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness is practically exactly the same from Brawl minus grab releases and then losing some autocancels last I heard. Primary reason he's good is because the things that beat him hard before got nerfed, while Ness overall didn't lose nearly as much damage on his stuff as other characters. You can't argue the character really got buffed when he almost entirely does the exact same thing he did in Brawl, just the meta around him changed in his favor.

Also, you are most definitely incorrect stating ROB got buffed. ROB is a much weaker character than in Brawl. If you removed stuff like MK and G&W who simply juggle him endlessly until he dies, he would probably be a top character in Brawl simply because not much can really deal with his F-tilt. The reason ROB worked before was because he had an incredibly dominant neutral game, broken edge trapping, and his neutral game gave him free opportunities to set up Glide Toss Gyro pressure for actually fairly respectable reward and setups. In Smash 4, ROB now has an average F-tilt that does bad damage, and slightly better KO options. But he still has the weakness of having fairly bad projectiles for neutral, being huge, easily juggled, and easily edgeguarded (rather, more characters can edgeguard him safely because they don't risk getting edgehogged by him). And the few KO moves he has that are better are still highly situational at best.

By buffs/nerfs, I am looking at damage/knockback comparisons, relative frame data, and changes to moves that change options and setups. By these standards, much more of the cast in Smash 4 is nerfed than buffed, and we can see this very clearly in how gimps happen less often, and there are extremely few combos in this game that very reliably go beyond 22%. So even though Luigi barely changed, hell, his recovery got worse and Up-B setups got way harder for him, the fact he does Brawl combos in this game is actually a big deal when almost everyone else lost that option.

So, I don't even have a 3DS to check the game, and I know my information is more accurate than yours, because I make more precise generalizations and actually provide analysis of what happens in competitive matches. You literally didn't check anything, you just stated unfounded tier impressions based on what you consider relative effectiveness. The main thing I will concede is that the game is much more balanced than previous iterations, but the reason for this is because of homogenizing the cast to be as a whole much weaker universally. This was all good and necessary for the health of competitive Smash.

Mario might have fewer really seriously terrible matchups aside from Marth, but because he was nerfed more than other characters, he has a greater number of unfavorable matchups compared to most characters. That's why I don't believe Mario is strictly better off in Smash 4. In Brawl, Mario had more neutral matchups against other mid tier characters, and even against a small number of upper tier characters. Right now, most of the cast has at least slight advantage against Mario instead. You have to work harder than most characters to win games simply because the risk/reward doesn't favor you, and in the case of Marth you just get steamrolled when he hits you. Matchups like Falco, Duck Hunt, Diddy, and Sheik are also clearly very uphill for Mario right now too.

Also, the bolded part is clearly a typo, but whatever.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Completely unrelated but did anyone else pop off when Ally killed with Mario's Up+B off the vertical blastzone against Diddy?

I know I sure did. ****ing Ally man, he's gonna take this character to the next ****ing level.

 

[Inferno3044]

I honestly didn't think that was gonna kill him. M2K honestly doesn't look like that good of a player just yet. From what I've heard he's more dedicated to melee, but his overall smash skill is so good he can get top 5 at a national (or large regional. whatever you wanna call his).

 

[HeroMystic]

He was fishing for it for awhile. So when it finally happened I was thoroughly amused.

I got more hyped by Will's shield break though.

 

[Coolwhip]

So what are the additions and subtractions to smash 4 Mario, and what makes him better then his
brawl counterpart?

 

[HeroMystic]

Strictly speaking from character to character, Brawl Mario is better than Smash 4 Mario. He had more techs, Stutter-Step F-Smash, and did more damage per hit. The only thing Smash 4 Mario has over Brawl Mario is a usable D-tilt and "Cape Brake".

From game to game, Smash 4 is a massive improvement to Mario due to Engine changes and the character balance being much tighter. Hitstun can't be cancelled anymore, allowing Mario to utilize his mobility more freely, and his combos connect more cleanly. Essentially, Mario is better in Smash 4 because Engine changes allow his strengths to shine.

 

[BSP]

Are we all in agreement that charging FLUDD is the first thing that should be done 99% of the time? I'm tired of seeing Mario's not charging it and missing FLUDD KO opportunities. People still think it's safe to up B away from him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Are we all in agreement that charging FLUDD is the first thing that should be done 99% of the time? I'm tired of seeing Mario's not charging it and missing FLUDD KO opportunities. People still think it's safe to up B away from him.

If it's any consolation I try to remember when I do play Mario

Speaking of Mario, how did using Dair -> Fair work for you? It's pretty consistent if you can land it.

 

[T25XL]

If it's any consolation I try to remember when I do play Mario

Speaking of Mario, how did using Dair -> Fair work for you? It's pretty consistent if you can land it.

"It's pretty consistent if you can land it."

That could be said for literally any combo

 

[TTTTTsd]

I should state that it's consistent DAMAGE, my apologies LOL. It was at 6 AM give me a break. Finals and exams aren't easy.

I guess I should say, it's consistent against most heights barring ******* like Kirby, Pooklechu, etc.

 

[BSP]

If it's any consolation I try to remember when I do play Mario

Speaking of Mario, how did using Dair -> Fair work for you? It's pretty consistent if you can land it.

Remember it. People need to know to fear FLUDD.

I haven't gotten to try Dair -> Fair with a gamecube controller, but if I can get it most of the time with a classic controller, I'm sure it'll be even easier with a GC.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's a really easy combo and it's basically free damage. Like, Dair is such a good aerial in this game.

 

[Vinylic.]

Luigi is pretty hard to play against for me.

I just took a game off a set with Mr. ConCon despite the loss. (1 - 2)
Anyone got some other tips when playing against luigi users?

 

[Inferno3044]

Luigi is pretty hard to play against for me.

I just took a game off a set with Mr. ConCon despite the loss. (1 - 2)
Anyone got some other tips when playing against luigi users?

I honestly think Luigi is a terrible matchup for Mario. The brothers both have similar playstyles in which you use fast, low cooldown moves to hit, poke, and combo your opponent. Because of this there's a good chance you will be trading hits. However Luigi does more damage, kills earlier, and has a better recovery. Mario has mobility and edgeguarding but, in a head to head matchup, Luigi's strengths overpower Mario's. It's definitely winnable, but you have to outplay Luigi.

What percents does dair > fair work at? I'm having trouble setting it up. Do you guys mean Dthrow?

 

[TTTTTsd]

No, basically Dair to Fair is you hti with Dair and hit with Mario's front fist (easily possible on shorthop against middle to tall characters) and then IMMEDIATELY jump. Then you just...Fair them. If this isn't enough, I'll try and make a video.

 

[Vinylic.]

A video is fine, yeah.

Dthrow to Fair does not work wonders.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi is pretty hard to play against for me.

I just took a game off a set with Mr. ConCon despite the loss. (1 - 2)
Anyone got some other tips when playing against luigi users?

U-tilt and U-smash a lot. Charge FLUDD a lot when he tries to zone you with fireballs, and remember to look for opportunities to use it to push him offstage. The best way to beat Luigi is by outmaneuvering him and going for safe juggles. Don't bother going for anything fancy in the air, just focus on conservative spacing that you know will outprioritize his aerials.

Also remember that F-smash outranges everything he does. Don't F-smash if he's in position to easily Up-B you for a kill obviously, but just remember it's actually a very good spacing tool in this matchup.

This matchup swings from his advantage to yours in a custom setting where Fast Fireball and Gust Cape force him to play on your terms. You have to play extremely consistently still, but with Fast Fireball, he has to approach you in suboptimal ways and you can focus on walling him out slowly to death.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ask and ye shall receive! A video with lousy commentary on Dair -> Fair, uses, application, stuff. I'm not top level but I think this kind of thing is something I understand, at the very least.

Apologies for the low quality, I wanted it to upload fast. Footage is still valid and should show application of stuff. When I get a good PC then I'll be able to do this game justice.
EDIT: I have no idea why the footage skips frames but I'm going to blame Youtube for that. It has no frameskip on my end as a raw video file : (. It could just be on my end, but vid is still valid I guess.

 

[HeroMystic]

While I suggest watching the whole thing, the most important part of that video is 5:46 and onwards.

 

[Inferno3044]

Alright, I get dair to fair now. I was trying to hit with the middle of dair and now I know it's with the hand. However, what I will say is don't see this as much more than a good low percent mix up. I won't deny its good damage, but I want to point out a few things that you should always have in mind.

First off, although there isn't vectoring, there is DI and you can DI up and behind Mario so you can't land this (I could be wrong on this). Obviously in that situation you would hit with bair. Second, the reason I'm not a fan of using fair in general is because of it's very long start up and end lag. If you can dair > fair, you can dair to any of Mario's aerials. You lose these options with fair. When you did the dair > fair on Fox, in my mind I saw the enemy Fox teching the stage and starting a chain on Mario because he was still in end lag of fair. I'm not saying don't go for this at low percents, but don't do it every time. It also gets really easy to read. As for the utilt chaining on some big characters, sometimes you just gotta get him to 10% and get that extra hit stun on them. Sometimes Dthrow > Utilt > shield > grab is a good reset. Characters that can get out like Luigi will nair after the first utilt so just shield and reset the situation.

However, something good I want to point out dair > fair is that it's a great option if you can spike them below the stage. This puts them on the ledge, which is not the best place to be in this game. You can punish their get up or grab the ledge and hit them as they jump off.

TL;DR: Dair to fair is good, but don't rely on it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

TL;DR: Dair to fair is good, but don't rely on it.

Oh of course, but it's important to know every single option. After all, I think any way to accelerate Mario's damage racking at low % is important, mixup or not.

It has its uses, and it's relatively safe to fish for if you're harassing or scaring your opponent. As long as you're quick you could probably land this out of standard shield pressure, which is what I think makes it helpful.

After all Mario is a monster once he gets his foe to mid %. Really flexible combos/strings.

 

[Inferno3044]

Strictly speaking from character to character, Brawl Mario is better than Smash 4 Mario. He had more techs, Stutter-Step F-Smash, and did more damage per hit. The only thing Smash 4 Mario has over Brawl Mario is a usable D-tilt and "Cape Brake".

From game to game, Smash 4 is a massive improvement to Mario due to Engine changes and the character balance being much tighter. Hitstun can't be cancelled anymore, allowing Mario to utilize his mobility more freely, and his combos connect more cleanly. Essentially, Mario is better in Smash 4 because Engine changes allow his strengths to shine.

This is what I've been trying to say. You also can't compare directly like that. It's like saying every character from melee to brawl was nerfed solely because you can't wavedash, L-cancel, crouch cancel, etc. You also have to think what each character has gained in return. I'd gladly trade away Mario's brawl ATs, stutter-step Fsmash (you can fox trot fsmash in this game), and a little bit of damage for letting my moves chain into themselves, freer mobility, and being able to kill better. How many times have you ultimately won a match/set because you cape glided or had FIHL? It happens, but not that often.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The thing is, Mario probably has more unfavorable matchups in Smash 4 as a result of his nerfs, because his relative threat compared to other characters is lower. He's more easily killed than before, and he has to work harder overall to kill people when he doesn't have legitimate Jab cancel combos to setup his game. In Brawl, more of his non-top tier matchups were basically even matchups, while in this game more things have slight advantage against Mario.

His moves don't chain better outside of situational exceptions. And you lose damage trades more noticeably in this game compared to others.

Also, Fox trot F-smash existed in Brawl. Rage helps KOs, but Mario as I've stated is easily killed due to his poor recovery and options in juggle situations.

I've won tournament matches and sets specifically because of Cape Stalling, just to clarify. Cape Stalling meant I could actually outplay my opponent in juggle and edgeguard situations to make Mario's survivability respectable.

 

[vato_break]

What unfavorable matchups? diddy kong? sheik? I've been playing a lot of non-wifi matches (smashfest and tournaments) and I feel like mario doesn't have as much trouble in this game that he did in brawl. From a tournament standpoint mario was not viable in brawl but, as far as the metagame has developed in this game, mario is very viable. (even despite my main practice being vs brawl pros mikeHAZE and DSF)

 

[A2ZOMG]

What unfavorable matchups? diddy kong? sheik? I've been playing a lot of non-wifi matches (smashfest and tournaments) and I feel like mario doesn't have as much trouble in this game that he did in brawl. From a tournament standpoint mario was not viable in brawl but, as far as the metagame has developed in this game, mario is very viable. (even despite my main practice being vs brawl pros mikeHAZE and DSF)

Almost everyone beats Mario 55/45 in this game. Except like...Doc, WFT, ROB, Little Mac, and Bowser who he probably goes even with. Then he loses 4/6 to like Sheik, Diddy, Ness, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Falco, Lucario, and Duck Hunt. He can still win these with hard reads, but these matchups are clearly uphill for him.

Mario has one 3/7 matchup in Marth, but he's not that common in tournament right now. But as I'm saying, more of Mario's matchups in this game are technically unfavorable. He has fewer unwinnables against top tiers, but in Brawl he had more even matchups outside of that.

 

[BSP]

Alright, I get dair to fair now. I was trying to hit with the middle of dair and now I know it's with the hand. However, what I will say is don't see this as much more than a good low percent mix up. I won't deny its good damage, but I want to point out a few things that you should always have in mind.

First off, although there isn't vectoring, there is DI and you can DI up and behind Mario so you can't land this (I could be wrong on this). Obviously in that situation you would hit with bair. Second, the reason I'm not a fan of using fair in general is because of it's very long start up and end lag. If you can dair > fair, you can dair to any of Mario's aerials. You lose these options with fair. When you did the dair > fair on Fox, in my mind I saw the enemy Fox teching the stage and starting a chain on Mario because he was still in end lag of fair. I'm not saying don't go for this at low percents, but don't do it every time. It also gets really easy to read. As for the utilt chaining on some big characters, sometimes you just gotta get him to 10% and get that extra hit stun on them. Sometimes Dthrow > Utilt > shield > grab is a good reset. Characters that can get out like Luigi will nair after the first utilt so just shield and reset the situation.

However, something good I want to point out dair > fair is that it's a great option if you can spike them below the stage. This puts them on the ledge, which is not the best place to be in this game. You can punish their get up or grab the ledge and hit them as they jump off.

TL;DR: Dair to fair is good, but don't rely on it.

I feel like Mario can follow the DI to make sure his fair hits. Otherwise, I agree. Don't go for it every single time. Dair -> Bair can lead to longer strings for sure.

Dthrow -> Fair is nice. I don't know if wifi was screwing me up, but the timing is really tight on it. The reward is good though, especially if happen to Dthrow them offstage.

There's a tournament this Sunday down here. I'm planning to go all Mario for once. I should have better results knowing things like Dair -> Fair, Dthrow -> Fair, and Usmash being a good KO option.

I'm still scared of Ness though.

 

[Inferno3044]

What unfavorable matchups? diddy kong? sheik? I've been playing a lot of non-wifi matches (smashfest and tournaments) and I feel like mario doesn't have as much trouble in this game that he did in brawl. From a tournament standpoint mario was not viable in brawl but, as far as the metagame has developed in this game, mario is very viable. (even despite my main practice being vs brawl pros mikeHAZE and DSF)

VATO!! What's good? MikeHAZE and DSF are not pushovers. There are tons of brawl pros dominating the Smash 4 scene.

A2, I'll say it again. If you REALLY want to discuss this, please talk to me 1 on 1. I'll give you cape stalling because that did help. But I do have to ask 2 questions now:

1. Are your thoughts on Mario solely based on theorycraft?
2. How does Mario lose 4/6 to Falco? He sucks lol.

@ BSP - Sometimes you get hit at weird angles or they DI oddly. But you get the point which is to follow their DI.

@A2 - One other question: How do you think Mario should be played in Smash 4?

 

[A2ZOMG]

VATO!! What's good? MikeHAZE and DSF are not pushovers. There are tons of brawl pros dominating the Smash 4 scene.

A2, I'll say it again. If you REALLY want to discuss this, please talk to me 1 on 1. I'll give you cape stalling because that did help. But I do have to ask 2 questions now:

1. Are your thoughts on Mario solely based on theorycraft?
2. How does Mario lose 4/6 to Falco? He sucks lol.

Falco is still good. Still has massive range on ground normals and does ridiculous damage per hit. Shine got buffed and went from a good poke to a great one. Falco beats Mario in this game for the same reasons he did in Brawl. Better damage, and better range, and it can also be obnoxiously hard to set up Mario's juggles on Falco due to how percent specific they are. It's also harder to edgeguard Falco in this game due to buffs to his recovery. Most people in the tier discussion thread believe Falco is being slept on massively. Sure, Falco lost a chaingrab, and his lasers no longer are broken (Mario ducked under them in Brawl anyway).

Just realistically, Mario can't fight Falco on the ground. And Falco can anti-air most approaches from Mario with Shine, B-air, or F-smash/U-smash consistently at low risk. Falco DOES have to work harder than he'd like to score the KO, but he dominates Mario very noticeably in neutral and is not easy for Mario to gimp this game.

@ BSP - Sometimes you get hit at weird angles or they DI oddly. But you get the point which is to follow their DI.

@A2 - One other question: How do you think Mario should be played in Smash 4?

Mario has to outspace his opponent repeatedly in order to win. And he's not a good character precisely because his spacing tools are not good.

There's a few matchups where you get to easily juggle and combo some characters to danger percents. Maybe a few others where FLUDD and Cape gimps are reliable. But most of the time if your opponent knows the matchup, Mario's combos rarely last longer than two hits except at really specific percent ranges. Your key to outplaying people is hoping for either F-smash reads or gimps, neither of which are easy for Mario to accomplish.

Watch Ally play. The majority of the time, he's winning almost purely through being better at spacing than his opponent. And Will demonstrates perfectly how Mario is not a good character. He knows his options to break Mario's combos, outspaces Mario, and gimps him. And DK isn't by far the best character at all these things individually.

Ally ends up going for F-throw a lot on Mario because it's in fact one of Mario's best throws. Does okay damage, has less ending lag than D-throw, which puts Mario in a good position for edgeguards where the risk/reward actually can be okay for Mario if your opponent fears getting gimped. But that shouldn't be your primary goal when edgeguarding, your goal is to go for free hits where applicable. That's what Ally does, and it doesn't prove Mario is good. The point is because he's so much better at spacing than his opposition, he makes Mario work.

 

[BSP]

I failed you guys. Tried to go 100% Mario today, but the baby brother forced me off >_>. Matches got recorded though, so I'll link them to the video thread later.

I still feel like Sheik is a major uphill battle, possibly to the point that Mario will need a secondary to deal with her. Maybe I'm playing the MU incorrectly, but I feel like she can do basically whatever she wants and Mario struggles to punish if she does it properly.

 

[vato_break]

I agree with what A2 was saying. I didn't believe it at first but, after playing with DSF some more it's pretty obvious mario has some really bad weaknesses. Still better than brawl though, IMO at least, lol. I think FLUDD is pretty good in this game is disrupt peoples approaches and gaining stage control. or maybe people just don't know how to deal with it because this is the first game FLUDD is truly used in a competitive environment, lol. the way I kill people is usually by baiting them to do something dumb. I feel like mario has a lot tougher of a time killing in this game tahn in brawl. Staying safe and landing a grab is best I think.

 

[TTTTTsd]

As I posted in the Mario metagame thread, I think Mario's biggest hurdles are:

- Low % combo game (racking up damage)
- killing people in flexible ways

If either of these were improved he would be wayyyy better. He's already fairly competitive and easily usable in play, but if one or even both of these big problems were gone he'd be ridiculous. Getting around these hurdles though, that is what completes the Mario experience. His mid % game is nothing to scoff at, at all. At mid % ranges he's SUPER scary.