Social Mario Hotel - Super Social 4

[TTTTTsd]

The back hit of DSmash hits HARDER than the front actually I think, or maybe that's just Dr. Mario

 

[BSP]

I'm pretty sure it's like that for Mario too, for whatever reason. I wonder why they decided to change that for this iteration.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Probably to make it a much more effective punish for the strengthened rolling mechanics.

Their constant design philosophy with Mario is "give him something for any given situation", or, better put, "jack of all trades master of none" (regardless of how he turned out that's the BASE IDEA) so a move that's more optimal for punishing something that got buffed makes sense, honestly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The back hit of DSmash hits HARDER than the front actually I think, or maybe that's just Dr. Mario

This is 100% correct. Most D-smashes work like that in this game, because some genius on the balance team realized that it was pretty silly that 2nd hits of D-smashes were so pointless.

We get to debate again!!! But let me try to be clearer on what I mean. I realized I posted a lot of jumbled thoughts so now I'm going to outline it to make it clear.

To start off, I completely disagree with your statement that Mario is downgraded. Whether it's the mechanics of the games or the buffs Mario got, I believe Mario is stronger overall. From the moment I played Mario, I felt that he was much smoother and his moves connect better in this game. I really feel like I can get the quick hits, strings, and pressure that I want to create instead of getting interrupted like I did in Brawl. So while his hits may do less, you can connect more resulting in more damage. He also more better options to knock people up (utilt, dash attack, dtilt, dair). I don't see how he gets edge guarded harder. The fact that you can't hog the ledge instantly makes it easier for him to recover. Rage starts acting around 100%. Don't tell me you can't get to that percentage because if you can't, I will stop debating with you right now.

With that said, obviously Mario still has weaknesses. His range is still on the low side, his recovery is still mediocre at best, his kill power isn't that good, and he can get juggled. Mario had these same weaknesses in Brawl. However, most of these weaknesses I feel like are less severe. He has a slight range increase (not big though. range is still poor). I've noticed this with jab and utilt mainly. I already talked about recovering so I don't need to repeat. While still meh in the killing department, his kill power did increase. Back hit of Dsmash hits just as hard as front hit and his other moves I believe kill at lower percents (don't have numbers, but going off what I've experienced). Bthrow kills again. Rage also plays a factor. As for being juggled, it seems about the same except you can't airdodge into the ground.

As for Mario's spot on the tier list, I can't give you an exact place because I don't know the cast. The reason I don't see him as top tier is because I don't see him as a character that really dominates the game. Right now top tiers include Diddy Kong, Shiek, Rosalina, Lucario, and Ness to name a few. Mario is not as dominant as those characters. The fact that I can name 10 characters that I believe are better than Mario makes him not top 7. I'll name them if requested.

Hope this clears some things up.

I still see Mario's tilt and aerial strings get interrupted by N-airs and jumped out of all the time. That really didn't seriously change. Most of Mario's reliable combos are two hits that do about 12 damage total unless you chicken out of non-guaranteed nonsense and go for D-throw Up-B, which is 17 damage. In 3 hits, you might get like 18 damage. Maybe in 4 hits you get like...23 or so damage. But keep in mind that this is definitely wading into non-guaranteed territory unless you're fighting against like Ganondorf, DDD, or Ike.

Just looking at raw damage numbers, and what you get out of reads, basically, Smash 4 Mario works harder than Brawl Mario to deal less damage. If you could condition your opponent to not airdodge D-throw, Brawl Mario could do 42 damage in a single read by ending his string with D-smash. Two hard reads, you're getting anywhere from 60-70 damage depending on which moves you choose. Smash 4 Mario is lucky to break 40 damage in two hard reads in contrast. All because U-air only does 7 damage.

So no, Mario definitely does not do more damage in this game. Meanwhile, I look at Luigi who has a more frame tight D-throw combo into two F-airs that does 24 damage that potentially leads to more juggles after that depending on character. I look at Ganondorf who does 13 damage in 1 tilt and 25 damage in 1 F-smash. Then I look back at Mario who gets 11 damage from D-throw U-tilt and doesn't have anything guaranteed after that except at extremely specific percent ranges against specific characters.

Yes, Mario gets fairly decent benefits from Rage at 100%, which definitely makes more of his moves much more viable for KOing including B-throw and sometimes B-air, and even makes his low percent combos connect sooner. But he's not a character that can easily survive beyond that point when he is vulnerable to all juggles in this game (I mean, Rage actually gets REALLY good for everyone at 150%, so being really hard to trap is important), and also has one of the worst recoveries in this game. Default Mario's Cape Stalling was nerfed considerably, and drops him out of the air much sooner on the first swing, making it almost useless offstage like Melee Doc Cape. So basically Mario just has a linear recovery, aerials with bad range, and he still gets gimped when he's hit out of his midair jump.

Brawl Mario virtually never worried about being edgehogged if he played right, because you would wait out ledge invincibility with Cape Stalling. What he DID worry about were characters who could easily chase him offstage BEFORE he got close to the ledge. And you realize that's exactly one way how Nairo killed you in tournament, because he basically didn't have to respect your linear recovery? The fact Cape Stalling is so bad in this game without Gust Cape just means any player with good spacing can easily just try to trap Mario's airdodge, and kill him, and he has no way to outmaneuver it.

Basically, Mario is a character with a mediocre neutral, one of the worst negative states in the game, and a highly questionable positive state.

You can't win as Mario by trading hits, and virtually all characters in this game have better spacing tools than him. I mean, you can argue Ganondorf might be slightly worse in neutral than Mario when you look at his mobility and relative unsafety...until you realize that Ganondorf does twice as much damage than Mario, actually has very good range on his attacks, and even has like two moves that he can safely use on shield with good spacing that both do massive damage. And even Ganondorf actually can't be juggled completely for free, when everyone has to actually think twice before challenging aerial Wizard's Foot. Meanwhile, Mario has nothing for juggles except Gust Cape.

I mean, it's clear as day that Mario isn't top tier in spite of what Ally and Zero think. But I realistically don't see a single character in this game that suffers in terms of raw damage output and survivability to nearly the same extent Mario does. There's characters like Metaknight who also do bad damage per hit, but Metaknight basically can't be edgeguarded or trapped if he uses Dimensional Cape to escape, and Metaknight even can do 30 damage with D-throw Tornado while Mario has nothing nearly that good for combos or traps. ROB also does piss poor damage and a bad negative state, but he at least has range that isn't blatantly terrible. Then the few characters that also have bad range like Mario...well Luigi and Doc both kinda train wreck people when they get in, and Luigi even manages to have a better projectile than Mario, and Doc gets a way superior recovery with customs that allows him to edgeguard deep with his killer B-air that does 14 damage. Pikachu is total nonsense that can't be trapped and can't really be stopped from approaching, and also has by far the best edgeguarding in the game. What does Mario have?

I see Mario as a barely viable character given the top tier is overall much weaker than previous games, so the game is overall very well balanced. I do believe however Marth has a 7/3 matchup against Mario, when I factor how powerful Marth's edgeguarding is and the fact Mario can no longer Cape Stall to avoid it. So we lose neutral against him due to his range and speed, and once Marth gets us offstage, it's Game Over. At least in Brawl, we had a second chance to not die to all of his juggles and edgeguards with Cape Stalling, and we also had amazing Jab cancel combos on him previously, not to mention invincible ledgedrop N-air to gimp him. I would wager we actually lose this worse in Smash 4, simply because Marth has a much easier time finishing Mario's stock than ever before.

I know Ally is repping Mario in tournament with some success, but all I've seen from him is that Ally is amazing at making reads with F-smash, which still kills at like 80% this game. I still see Ally drop "combos" because Mario's stuff actually doesn't connect very well, and Zero twostocked him with Diddy, even though Ally objectively is a FAR superior player.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not sure if it's wise to bring him up, but if you're looking
to be aggressive with Mario you may want to try Doc.
As TTTTTsd pointed out, Doc is better at maintaining offensive
momentum.

I'm actually not sure this is correct due to the fact that Doc's speed is so much lesser than Mario's. I feel it's correct to say Doc has a better defensive posture since he hits so much harder than Mario. If you're looking for offensive momentum, Mario is better at maintaining it until it's time to land a kill.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm actually not sure this is correct due to the fact that Doc's speed is so much lesser than Mario's. I feel it's correct to say Doc has a better defensive posture since he hits so much harder than Mario. If you're looking for offensive momentum, Mario is better at maintaining it until it's time to land a kill.

Well, he's defensive up until he lands a solid hit,
then he tries to lay into the opponent as much as possible
before they can escape. Mario can POTENTIALLY get more momentum
than Doc on offense, but the opponent kinda has to be napping
or consistently making bad decisions for that to happen.
Doc's poor mobility certainly mandates more cautious play in neutral,
but it also encourages making the most of opportunities where he can attack
(whereas Mario just hits until he doesn't feel safe anymore).

Maybe we need to get an understanding of what 'offense' means exactly.

 

[HeroMystic]

Maybe we need to get an understanding of what 'offense' means exactly.

Offense in Smash is simply being able to push the advantageous state as much as possible, and being aggressive during the neutral game.

Both Mario and Doc have poor range, forcing them to bide their time before attacking. Essentially, Mario's mobility gives him more opportunities go onto the offensive when an opening is made, forcing their opponents to be more safe versus Mario in comparison to Doc. Doc has a more difficult time pressing his offensive advantage because he doesn't have the speed to follow-up everything and remain "scary", so to speak. However, Doc has more defensive tools than Mario (Doc Tornado is a powerful defense tool that beats a lot of aerials), and a better projectile. Doc not needing to land (nearly) as many hits as Mario balances out the lack of mobility.

Screw it, I'll play Doc too.

I know Ally is repping Mario in tournament with some success, but all I've seen from him is that Ally is amazing at making reads with F-smash, which still kills at like 80% this game. I still see Ally drop "combos" because Mario's stuff actually doesn't connect very well, and Zero twostocked him with Diddy, even though Ally objectively is a FAR superior player.

Mario's DPH wouldn't matter nearly as much if we could consistently land F-Smash. I believe Pivots is a good method of getting this to work since F-Smash is disjointed. It'd be similar to wavedash into F-Smash in Melee.

Frame-trapping opponents into F-Smash would be good too, which is possible since air dodging to the ground leaves you open for literally everything.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What I mean by Doc has to be offensive is he has to START defensive and then when he gets in he has to use his more reliable combos and strings to stack damage fast before they can get out of his CQC zone.

 

[Inferno3044]

Honestly, I don't want to reply to your wall of text. I'll just say that based on the feel and how I play, I disagree with you. If you saw me play Nairo, then you know that I played an aggressive and pressure based game and was successful at points pressuring with some safety. I lost because a) Nairo is one of the best players in the world and b) I didn't respect Zelda's UpB. Of course I made other mistakes and Nairo made great plays, but you get the gist. Honestly, I just see him as very fluid character and you don't. We will simply agree to disagree. I also disagree on the fact that Ally is superior to Zero. They are both top players in the game and I'd put same in the same league. Diddy is much better than Mario though but Diddy is top 3 (a lot of people have him at #1). Plus Ally lost to Gunblade in a set (shoutouts to Gunblade tho ).

As for playing Doc, I do not like him. I think he is just a less mobile Mario with a worse recovery, not counting customs. I think he's much worse than Mario and I hate his flow. If I wanna play as a less mobile Mario, I'll play Luigi. I would try out Luigi, but I don't have a Wii U to myself yet.

EDIT: A2 I totally saw something I didn't read last time. Just because you get hit off stage doesn't mean you die/get gimped. WTF? Do not come in here and say that's true.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Doc's flow is much more defensive than Mario's so that might be why you don't like him. IDK, I think he's 1-2 tiers lower than Mario but I don't think he's bottom tier or anything.

He's definitely a different character though. Also if you want to play a less mobile Mario you would only go Luigi in Smash 64 because Luigi is not even CLOSE to Mario in this game, even Doc is closer despite being far from him still =P.

 

[Kisatamura]

Luigi's air mobility just makes him really sluggish (in the air mostly), and even then Luigi can control his ground mobility with Cyclone. But I dunno, cause I play an incredibly aggressive Doc. It's just that with Mario you're given more opportunities to go aggro in your opponent's face with throw combos or dairs. Essentially, a more fun playstyle

 

[BSP]

Ok, got some more play in, focusing on Mario.

I'm realizing that Usmash is pretty reliable around 110%-130% depending on character in this game, which is great.

Fireball is also pretty good for midrange control. I've definitely been neglecting it.

Dair-> Fair is legit and nice %

My reverse Uairs may not be worth the 7% as opposed to catching landings with Fsmash, Usmash, or grab.

100% sure now that Sheik can just crouch and get out of SH Dair.

My plan is to focus on him in the tournament next weekend and emphasize good fireball use and Center stage control.

 

[Dekar173]

I'll have some footage for you nerds to watch assuming we actually upload.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dair-> Fair is legit and nice %

It's one of Mario's best ways to rack up damage and it works at varying low %s so yeah it's one of his best tools. I probably should've posted myself finding this combo a bit earlier given that my post in this thread led people to figuring it out even though I thought everyone knew that Dair was basically JCable on the last hit into ANY AERIAL period.

Dair is an incredible offensive tool in this game. The followups from it are incredible, it can cross up shields AND do all of this, and as a matter of fact, you can, without vectoring, reliably 0 to death Jigglypuff if she tries anything but an airdodge, provided you're on Battlefield and on ANY of the platforms (top works best but since vectoring is gone, the middle ones will work fine too) if you do...

U-Throw -> Dair -> Jump -> Hit with Up+B's hits EXCEPT the last one.

She'll be carried into the blastzone or close to it from Dair, and then Up+B's relatively good knockback on the hits before the last one, provided the final hit doesn't connect, will outright kill her.

Thank you Sakurai for removing vectoring BTW LOL

 

[Inferno3044]

T, I think Luigi is better than Mario for the same reasons he was better in Brawl. He deals more damage, kills earlier, and has a better recovery. And like Mario, Luigi looks a lot smoother in this game. I watched Boss play Luigi and it makes me want to play him. Luigi strings + Boss's mix ups and reads = amazing. Of course Luigi has his weaknesses, but I honestly think that Luigi can be a top character. Definitely better than Mario imo (or at least Luigi beats Mario head to head).

I actually didn't know Dair > fair was reliable. I'm not sure what I think about it though. Do you hit them back down or try and hit them away. If you hit them down I guess it would be a good tech chase but hitting them away, I'd rather juggle with Uair. I'll give it a go next time I get a chance to play.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dair into Fair is really just a good option for getting your damage up there so you can start doing combos and better strings. IMO it's Mario's BEST low % combo option and has great synergy with his moveset as a whole. Since it works on most people besides Sheik and ******* it's also really handy. Do keep in mind it works as long as the last hit of Dair connects, so from ANYWHERE it's an easy damage confirm provided they're at a low %.

As I'm sure you know, Mario's strings and combo game get better at the middle percents (20-70% from my last experimentations) and Dair into Fair does about 23% damage. Now your followups vary based on what you do. If you want to regain control of the neutral and some breathing room you can sourspot it for 1% less damage, if you want a bit more damage and want them below you, I advise the sweetspot. Basically, depending on where Mario wants to be position wise in the MU.

And yeah I think the order of the bros is, like in Brawl, Luigi > Mario, but in this game I think overall it's Luigi > Mario > Doc as of right now, but Doc isn't super far behind (Doc is somewhere in low tiers, I don't see him in bottom, he DOES get better than Mario overall IMO once you add in customs cause then he has projectiles to camp everything switching between Megavitamins and fast pills, and then his bad recovery gets a lot better.)

And remember, if you grab Jiggs on a battlefield platform you can kiss her goodbye. For the record that Jiggs thing I talked about above works on anyone Fox's weight and lower but ONLY from the top platform (except Pika for some reason).

 

[HeroMystic]

Just to let everyone know, D-Throw to Fair is also a true combo, and is usable @ 100% damage for most characters.

 

[Inferno3044]

I agree with most of what you said about the tier of them. I don't consider customs because I don't think they will become standard (I'd rather not discuss this. I'm neutral on this subject). How reliable is dair > fair? Is fair really that much better in this game? I noticed it's faster but I tend to not like it because it's not very safe. Maybe I can use it in another situation?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dair > Fair works at all %s due to how Dair launches at the end (it always has strong KB). Fair isn't much better in this game (you can use it offstage if you make a solid read) but it DOES combo off of Dair REALLY reliably at the lower %s as I said. It really just helps you bring their damage level to Mario's optimum percent range much quicker.

 

[Vinylic.]

I've been playing a lot of characters. Mario mostly.

I love him atm.

 

[HeroMystic]

I agree with most of what you said about the tier of them. I don't consider customs because I don't think they will become standard (I'd rather not discuss this. I'm neutral on this subject). How reliable is dair > fair? Is fair really that much better in this game? I noticed it's faster but I tend to not like it because it's not very safe. Maybe I can use it in another situation?

Dair to Fair is a true combo. Only way it can miss is if you're not quick enough.

I use Dair to punish rolls and poke shields, so Dair to Bair is my go-to combo.

 

[Cezz624]

Is it just me or is Mario easier to combo with as opposed to Dr. Mario? How do you guys feel about this? Is it mainly due to Dr. Mario being slower than Mario?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario has more tools to combo with but I think Dr. Mario's are more reliable at all percent ranges. It's a matter of versatility vs. a more simplistic yet efficient structure.

 

[BSP]

Doc also has the Diagnosis victory pose over Mario. Then again, Mario can be Uncle Mario, so I guess it balances out.

 

[BoTastic!]

I think Doc's one of the worst characters in the game. :|

 

[MP8]

No MD's or Green allowed. Stop talking about the outdated Doctor Mario. Mario is better. The end.

 

[Inferno3044]

I think Doc's one of the worst characters in the game. :|

I'm with you. I honestly would relate Doc to Roy in melee: why play him when you're just a worse clone overall?

Also A2, Ally won with Mario (and Shulk) at a regional. You still think he's bad?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm with you. I honestly would relate Doc to Roy in melee: why play him when you're just a worse clone overall?

Also A2, Ally won with Mario (and Shulk) at a regional. You still think he's bad?

The first point I'm not going to talk about > : ( (UNCALLED FOR SIR). I think Dr. Mario is a fully functional character in comparison and he offers a unique playstyle that I happen to like more, but ok

Also Ally is really good so I'm glad he put in work and took it with the man in red.

 

[Inferno3044]

Dude I mean nothing personal. At this moment in time, I just think Doc is an overall inferior character. If a good Doc comes around or some things happen with Doc, I will reconsider. Second the comment is more for A2 who wrote a whole wall saying how Mario is a terrible character. Honestly I think I know his response

 

[Haahp]

Does anyone know where we can view those matches of Ally?

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm more intrigued by why multiple pro players are saying Mario is high/top tier in this game.

I've seen some of Ally's game. It just seems more like he's a really solid player and Mario has just enough strengths to combat the entire cast.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dude I mean nothing personal. At this moment in time, I just think Doc is an overall inferior character. If a good Doc comes around or some things happen with Doc, I will reconsider. Second the comment is more for A2 who wrote a whole wall saying how Mario is a terrible character. Honestly I think I know his response

Oh I know I just be ribbin' you lol =3. Also yeah Mario's been doing pretty well in tournament which is always nice.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm with you. I honestly would relate Doc to Roy in melee: why play him when you're just a worse clone overall?

Also A2, Ally won with Mario (and Shulk) at a regional. You still think he's bad?

After watching the way Ally played in tournament previously, I'm more convinced that Ally is just really ridiculous at this game. He never proved me wrong in anything I said. He still suffered from the usual nonsense that I believe makes Mario bad. Just when he randomly can clutch out games with F-smash...sure. Ally is ridiculous.

There's a lot of characters randomly getting good representation right now. The game is super balanced when the top tier doesn't straight up invalidate characters hard. Most of the cast got straight nerfed, Mario included. It's plain as day though compared to most of the cast, Mario is pretty vulnerable.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm more intrigued by why multiple pro players are saying Mario is high/top tier in this game.

I've seen some of Ally's game. It just seems more like he's a really solid player and Mario has just enough strengths to combat the entire cast.

Well if you have enough strengths to fight the cast well, you're probably a good character lol.

After watching the way Ally played in tournament previously, I'm more convinced that Ally is just really ridiculous at this game. He never proved me wrong in anything I said. He still suffered from the usual nonsense that I believe makes Mario bad. Just when he randomly can clutch out games with F-smash...sure. Ally is ridiculous.

There's a lot of characters randomly getting good representation right now. The game is super balanced when the top tier doesn't straight up invalidate characters hard. Most of the cast got straight nerfed, Mario included. It's plain as day though compared to most of the cast, Mario is pretty vulnerable.

Really man? He WON a large regional beating M2K, NAKAT, and Will. That really counts for something about the character. There's a reason that Mario never topped in Brawl. Actions speak louder than words and, with Ally, your point doesn't have much weight behind it outside of your opinions/theorycraft. I'll be honest too. I read your wall of text after Ally won and laughed lol.

Also I'm looking at this cast on my 3DS and I'm honestly thinking wtf? I'm counting way more characters that got buffed in this game. The following characters I would say are straight nerfed from Brawl: Wario, G&W, Falco, Marth, MK, Olimar. Maybe Ike and Samus (they seem really poor, but they were low tier in Brawl). I can name a lot more characters that got buffed.

 

[NAKAT]

Like I said. Mario is mad good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ally switched to Shulk against Will, and I definitely saw him struggle a lot with Mario. Against M2K I got the impression he basically just took advantage of M2K getting frustrated and going on tilt. Your point being?

Characters like Ganondorf and Ike have also done well in big tournaments BEFORE PATCH BUFFS. Does that mean the characters are great? Hell no. It just means the game is likely very balanced compared to the previous titles.

Ally's actions do speak loud. He's beating people with a character that has very clear problems and limitations using mostly a lot of basic tricks and hard reads to get by, which again, proves that he's a ridiculous player. And that most things are viable in this game. Will got to grand finals with DK, and Boss also won a tournament with Luigi. Does this really say how good the characters are?

There's basically like...five or so characters from Brawl that got straight buffed if you don't factor general system changes. Yoshi, Ike, Jigglypuff, Link, and Captain Falcon all have clear number buffs or changes to specific moves that significantly add to their options. Some characters changed less and got amplified hard by system changes (Ganondorf, Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Sonic), and the rest of the cast effectively got universally slapped by damage nerfs, landing lag nerfs, and removal of options like Jab canceling and strong throw combos. The reason this game is balanced is largely because there are far, far, far fewer things that kill easily in this game. Smash 4 is the polar opposite of 64. Everything in Smash 4 is generally speaking pretty weak and tame (hilariously enough, even items got nerfed, not that it matters competitively). While in 64, everything is pretty broken.

Mario's nerfs do not outweigh his benefits from system changes, or the few obscure buffs he got. He's a more easily killed character in this game, overall still has unreliable combos, and just generally doesn't hit very hard, nor does he do well in neutral. At least in Brawl, if you discounted the clearly unbalanced top tier, Mario was a character who was legitimately scary when he got hard reads, and he also generally speaking was less vulnerable to traps. Smash 4 Mario isn't scary. Sure he has some combos and followups. For what? In four hits, some characters are doing the same damage in two hits. And without hard reads into F-smash or gimps offstage, he doesn't have good KO options.

But who cares I guess. Most of the cast is generally really weak in this game. Until post Diddy nerfs we prove that Pikachu is S tier.

 

[BSP]

Well if you have enough strengths to fight the cast well, you're probably a good character lol.



Really man? He WON a large regional beating M2K, NAKAT, and Will. That really counts for something about the character. There's a reason that Mario never topped in Brawl. Actions speak louder than words and, with Ally, your point doesn't have much weight behind it outside of your opinions/theorycraft. I'll be honest too. I read your wall of text after Ally won and laughed lol.

Also I'm looking at this cast on my 3DS and I'm honestly thinking wtf? I'm counting way more characters that got buffed in this game. The following characters I would say are straight nerfed from Brawl: Wario, G&W, Falco, Marth, MK, Olimar. Maybe Ike and Samus (they seem really poor, but they were low tier in Brawl). I can name a lot more characters that got buffed.

I'm with A2Z for the most part.

When I watch Ally play, I still see that Mario has unreliable combos, short range, all the stuff that we've been saying. The difference in this game is that the top tier doesn't rofl stomp him, so a smart player, like Ally, can still clutch out wins.

I would still put him at mid tier at best.

Outside of mechanics changes (which do help, like Usmash reliably KO ing now), the only buffs Mario got were FLUDD, Fair (offstage anyway) and Dtilt. Everyone else got worse to the point that Mario can compete.

 

[BoTastic!]

I'm gonna have to disagree with A2Z here. Mario was AWFUL in brawl. Even with his options like cape glide and shutter step, it wasn't enough to combat the high tiers.

I've won 4 tournaments so far and haven't placed lower than 2nd since Smash 4 dropped. I always struggled with Mario in brawl because of the advantages everyone had on him. Sure the game is new and growing, but I'm convinced that Mario is at least solid. Not among the elite, but he's solid. There's no way he's been nerfed since brawl, lol. The engine itself nerfed him from melee.

Also, I wanna see Ally's Mario. last time I looked, I couldn't find it on youtube but I did see a glimpse of it on stream.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm gonna have to disagree with A2Z here. Mario was AWFUL in brawl. Even with his options like cape glide and shutter step, it wasn't enough to combat the high tiers.

I've won 4 tournaments so far and haven't placed lower than 2nd since Smash 4 dropped. I always struggled with Mario in brawl because of the advantages everyone had on him. Sure the game is new and growing, but I'm convinced that Mario is at least solid. Not among the elite, but he's solid. There's no way he's been nerfed since brawl, lol. The engine itself nerfed him from melee.

Firstoff, one thing has to be acknowledged. The Brawl top tiers were LUDICROUSLY unfair, and from a design perspective shouldn't have existed. Let's ignore them for a moment given Brawl matchups against them are largely a joke. Mario's matchups in Brawl are generally speaking pretty solid, and game plan wise, you have the potential to kill people with Mario if you make about 3-4 hard reads on a stock. Let's also keep in mind superior Cape stalling means you could always outplay edgeguards and juggles against characters that weren't Metaknight basically.

Smash 4 Mario, you have to make more like at minimum...6-7 hard reads a stock to kill people usually. And in this game, your only option to get around juggles and traps is airdodging and hoping your opponent commits to something really laggy. Thought Marth was bad for Mario in Brawl? It ain't better in this game. He gets you offstage, traps your airdodge with a tipper aerial, and you're dead, and ledge mechanics don't save you from having a short recovery.

Mario might be more viable, but he has more unfavorable matchups in this game due to nerfs, and Marth honestly probably crushes Mario hardest in this game due to how poor Mario's reward is in comparison. Fortunately that's really the only matchup I think is 3/7 out of Mario's favor, and Marth is not popular in tournament right now (which is honestly somewhat surprising, given how ludicrous his tipper edgeguards are and how Counter makes him hard to trap).

 

[Haahp]

Yes let's get ahold of the footage. Also BoTastic! If you have some videos up I would love to see it. Really enjoy watching/learning from y'all.