Social Mario Hotel - Super Social 4

[vato_break]

I find spamming upB at low percent works because people don't like to airdodge into the ground everytime LOL. Also I think it serves as a good mixup because if an airdodge is baited...well

:^)

 

[TTTTTsd]

I failed you guys. Tried to go 100% Mario today, but the baby brother forced me off >_>. Matches got recorded though, so I'll link them to the video thread later.

I still feel like Sheik is a major uphill battle, possibly to the point that Mario will need a secondary to deal with her. Maybe I'm playing the MU incorrectly, but I feel like she can do basically whatever she wants and Mario struggles to punish if she does it properly.

Gonna add that a lot of characters have this problem with Sheik from what I can tell. She's ridonk in this game lol. IDK what kind of secondary you'd even want to pull against her if you play Mario TBH.

I find spamming upB at low percent works because people don't like to airdodge into the ground everytime LOL. Also I think it serves as a good mixup because if an airdodge is baited...well
:^)

Up+B is best served to end strings or combos to rack up % IMO. It kind of helps but not a whole ton, but the faster you can get them to mid % the faster they wriggle in fear.

 

[Coolwhip]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAPAN-NEW-C...330?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462ec3bc1a

I would love to own a Mario GC controller. *sighs*

Anywho, wzzup plumbers! Howzit going?!

 

[vato_break]

I agree! I just play more of a mental-based game involving a lot of conditioning so I like to use upB at low percents out of grabs and as well as my go to OoS option if they are within range(and if grab isn't a better option at that percent). I think Reverse upB offstage seems to have a little more range in this game too if that has not been explored but, i'm not really sure.

 

[JipC]

Does Mario still get **** on by Marth like he did in Melee?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JAPAN-NEW-C...330?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462ec3bc1a

Holy crap even the box looks nice

Spoiler

 

[HeroMystic]

Does Mario still get **** on by Marth like he did in Melee?

No idea. Even if he does, Marth doesn't seem to be a good character in this game so he won't be everywhere, like he was in Brawl's early days and Melee.

I can't imagine Marth being dominant in this match-up though. Despite his range, his aerials have really bad lag, making him really open. He can't do anything out of his grabs either, and DB can be DI out of easily. Pretty much the worst Marth has been in Smash history.

His only saving grace at this point is his tilts (always a threat) and Shield Breaker being a really powerful move due to it's range. Even if Marth has the advantage, I can't imagine it being more than 60:40. Mario can't do what he wants but with patience he can fight his way in more easily than before.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Marth vs. Mario is still not the BEST for Mario but, if you asked me...

a lot of the **** that Marth had on Mario is like 20 times as laggy and not nearly as spammable. Fair is the biggest game changer, holy crap.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, Marth still seems insane if you ask me. He's still super mobile and kills like nobody's business with tippers.

The simple fact he probably kills EARLIER in this game than in Brawl, and the fact Mario has really terrible options to escape Marth's juggles and edgeguards makes me believe the matchup is in fact worse in this game. It's just a risk/reward thing. When Marth hits you, he can kill you devastatingly fast in this game with juggles and edgeguards. Mario just doesn't really have much on that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

He kills earlier but what I think inverses his danger factor a bit and hear me out on this, he has to commit a good deal more in the air to create his killing situations.

My limited knowledge could be wrong but while his range is roughly the same if not a bit better than in Brawl, a lot of his stuff is laggier and his ability to create traps and/or damage is reducted, especially with new Dancing Blade IIRC.

I mean he's not BAD by any means but I think he lacks the dominance that let him shut down people like he used to. Don't get me wrong it's not a good matchup by any means but I don't really think it's as bad as it used to be only because Marth isn't as flexible. When looking at him vs. Mario in both Melee and Brawl I feel it was bad for Mario not just cause of range but because it was range and lack of real lag on a lot of Marth's better options.

Double Fair not existing and Fair having significant landing lag is big. His everything has been toned down as I said before and I think his aerials are more laggy in general. He has to commit more than he used to and that's really big. He's definitely toned down overall, and while Mario is too to some extent, I think the way the cards line up is different this time.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

Apparently either Yoshi's Fsmash can go through Mario's Dair at some point during the end of his
grounded animation because I totally should have gotten punished:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GajyRF4ZoO0

EDIT: Or maybe the hitbox doesn't get that close? Idk lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean he's not BAD by any means but I think he lacks the dominance that let him shut down people like he used to. Don't get me wrong it's not a good matchup by any means but I don't really think it's as bad as it used to be only because Marth isn't as flexible. When looking at him vs. Mario in both Melee and Brawl I feel it was bad for Mario not just cause of range but because it was range and lack of real lag on a lot of Marth's better options.

In Melee, Mario gimped the **** out of Marth with ledgedrop B-airs, and you could crouch cancel every aerial he did for free punishes at low percents, not to mention crouch -> F-smash could punish a lot of Marth's air spacing. Sure, the matchup got more stupid once Marth starts to D-tilt, but the difficulty of the matchup is highly overstated.

I can see why people might think Brawl Marth is ridiculously hard for Mario, but again, it's one of those things where if you actually got in on Marth, you had great reward. Marth's physics in Brawl were very ideal for Mario's juggles as long as you paid some respect for Up-B, and you could still screw his recovery over with ledgedrop N-air. Plus turnaround F-smash legit outranged everything Marth did.

I just feel like in Smash 4, even if it's slightly easier to get in on Marth compared to Brawl, Mario just has way fewer options overall to punish Marth hard for mistakes. Not having Jab cancels REALLY sucks against Marth. And Mario's damage nerfs just mean Marth risks less trying to interrupt your strings with Counter. Meanwhile you still die if Marth tipper edgeguards you, and Cape Stalling is worse.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

lololol idk if u guys know this (not a mario main) but you can reflect an entire Thoron just by caping the tail end. Hilarious results.

 

[Inferno3044]

Vato, I know Mario has some weaknesses. They're more or less his same weaknesses from Brawl (low range, poor recovery, hard to escape juggles, not the easiest person to land a kill with). However most of those weaknesses are not as big in this game plus he got some buffs in most of his weaknesses minus being juggled easily. Of course, he can juggle his enemies better as a result. But he did get some increased range, edge hogging isn't in the game (making cape even more powerful imo. And I love me some cape) and his smashes are stronger. I actually find it much easier to kill with him in this game. Yeah you might have to punish with a Usmash on a jump or a Dsmash on a roll, but more or less you have to read/punish argument with everyone. Compared to brawl, he gets a lot more reward for about the same risk.

TTTT, it's not impossible to rack up damage at low percents. Dthrow to a couple of utilts and following up is fine. You can throw fireballs, jabs, tilts, cross ups, etc. I'm really confused on how people say to just space aerials and that's how he's meant to be played. How do you win by spacing with a character with relatively low range? That's why I play an aggressive Mario. He has a lot of fast, low cooldown moves and I abuse that. Things connect WAY better, and I can stay in their face and harass them. Mind telling me how you play Mario?

Also, won a small local with Mario yesterday. WOOT!

 

[HeroMystic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0

Return of Wavedash into F-Smash?

 

[Inferno3044]

Guess I have something to work on if I plan to make an impact at Apex. Thanks for the link Hero. I might as well ask more questions if I'm trying to get better. What is so bad about cape stalling in this game? I use it just fine. Also what does Marth do in this game? To me he feels a lot like Falco in which they lost their bread and butter (for Marth, fair and dancing blade) and didn't really get anything to compensate. This matchup was very heavily in Marth's favor in past installments. I'm not coming to a final conclusion yet, but this MU looks very winnable for Mario.

 

[meleebrawler]

Guess I have something to work on if I plan to make an impact at Apex. Thanks for the link Hero. I might as well ask more questions if I'm trying to get better. What is so bad about cape stalling in this game? I use it just fine. Also what does Marth do in this game? To me he feels a lot like Falco in which they lost their bread and butter (for Marth, fair and dancing blade) and didn't really get anything to compensate. This matchup was very heavily in Marth's favor in past installments. I'm not coming to a final conclusion yet, but this MU looks very winnable for Mario.

Cape stalling was nerfed from Brawl, you can only do it once
and the effect isn't nearly as significant. This makes his
recovery more predictable.

Marth can't throw out Fairs willy-nilly to wall people out anymore, but he
still outranges most of Mario's moves, edge-guards very
well, and tippered F-smash has even more ridiculous KO power
(around 50%).

 

[HeroMystic]

Should you really be getting hit by F-Smash though? I don't think Marth has a setup for that. Shield Breaker is far more scary than F-Smash.

How would people feel if I made videos to critique other Marios?

 

[Haahp]

That would be great if you wanted to do that @ HeroMystic !

 

[Coolwhip]

I got a question to ask: is Scorpionmaster & Mango are the same person?

 

[BSP]

I got a question to ask: is Scorpionmaster & Mango are the same person?

Yes. I don't know why he went by the former for a while though.

 

[Coolwhip]

After all this freaking time I didn't knew about it until earlier this morning. Thanks, BSP

 

[A2ZOMG]

Guess I have something to work on if I plan to make an impact at Apex. Thanks for the link Hero. I might as well ask more questions if I'm trying to get better. What is so bad about cape stalling in this game? I use it just fine. Also what does Marth do in this game? To me he feels a lot like Falco in which they lost their bread and butter (for Marth, fair and dancing blade) and didn't really get anything to compensate. This matchup was very heavily in Marth's favor in past installments. I'm not coming to a final conclusion yet, but this MU looks very winnable for Mario.

You actually lose height when Cape stalling in this game without Gust Cape. This hurts Mario's recovery options and ability to outspace juggles considerably. You can't bait juggles in nearly the same manner in Smash 4, nor space as dynamically. Basically, it gives your opponent a considerably smaller prediction window to follow your aerial movement (given you can't really directly contest juggle attempts anyway). In Brawl and Melee, you could often reactively Cape Stall to avoid a lot of precise juggle traps. You can't really do that in Smash 4 because of how much less Cape Stalling alters your momentum this game, meaning in many more situations, you have to do it preemtively for it to have a chance of messing up your opponent's spacing.

Falco got buffed Shine, a considerably better recovery, and kept Brawl level damage in a game where everyone else got big damage nerfs. Marth's aerials are all still good without SH double aerial gimmicks. Also Marth's bread and butter is high mobility, range, and lethal traps and edgeguards which he still has.

Mario vs Marth was very winnable in Melee. Stupid but potentially rewarding in Brawl. And in Smash 4 it's just lame and not cool at all for Mario. Mario's options to do stupid things to make up for losing neutral have progressively gotten worse each game, while Marth's reward has consistently remained really strong. So thus I would easily believe that this matchup is in fact hardest for Mario in Smash 4, even though neutral technically is less horrible for Mario than before, simply because there are overall fewer situations where Mario is at a significant advantage. In Melee, you force Marth to play carefully with the threat of crouch canceling and WD out of shield to punish him, and any time you get him offstage is a moment where you can instantly kill him with ledgedrop B-air. In Brawl, you have Jab cancel -> almost anything on him, and your D-throw/U-throw setups at low percents are actually really scary for Marth, plus ledgedrop N-air gimps him easily still. So basically in both Melee and Brawl, Marth actually had to be afraid of you if he ever let you get in, because you actually had great reward in hard read situations.

In Smash 4...what does Mario even have? His strings do less damage in this game. He's limited to basically FLUDD to attempt outplaying Marth offstage. F-smash is harder to land for Mario without Brawl reverse mechanics. And Marth still very easily kills Mario when juggling and edgeguarding. Assuming you manage to hit Marth about the same number of times he hits you (which is being really generous), you are very likely to lose on the basis of reward, simply because you aren't surviving his juggles and edgeguards, while Marth in contrast is less vulnerable to gimps and traps in comparison. Keeping in mind you STILL don't win neutral.

 

[meleebrawler]

You actually lose height when Cape stalling in this game without Gust Cape. This hurts Mario's recovery options and ability to outspace juggles considerably. You can't bait juggles in nearly the same manner in Smash 4, nor space as dynamically. Basically, it gives your opponent a considerably smaller prediction window to follow your aerial movement (given you can't really directly contest juggle attempts anyway). In Brawl and Melee, you could often reactively Cape Stall to avoid a lot of precise juggle traps. You can't really do that in Smash 4 because of how much less Cape Stalling alters your momentum this game, meaning in many more situations, you have to do it preemtively for it to have a chance of messing up your opponent's spacing.

Falco got buffed Shine, a considerably better recovery, and kept Brawl level damage in a game where everyone else got big damage nerfs. Marth's aerials are all still good without SH double aerial gimmicks. Also Marth's bread and butter is high mobility, range, and lethal traps and edgeguards which he still has.

Mario vs Marth was very winnable in Melee. Stupid but potentially rewarding in Brawl. And in Smash 4 it's just lame and not cool at all for Mario. Mario's options to do stupid things to make up for losing neutral have progressively gotten worse each game, while Marth's reward has consistently remained really strong. So thus I would easily believe that this matchup is in fact hardest for Mario in Smash 4, even though neutral technically is less horrible for Mario than before, simply because there are overall fewer situations where Mario is at a significant advantage. In Melee, you force Marth to play carefully with the threat of crouch canceling and WD out of shield to punish him, and any time you get him offstage is a moment where you can instantly kill him with ledgedrop B-air. In Brawl, you have Jab cancel -> almost anything on him, and your D-throw/U-throw setups at low percents are actually really scary for Marth, plus ledgedrop N-air gimps him easily still. So basically in both Melee and Brawl, Marth actually had to be afraid of you if he ever let you get in, because you actually had great reward in hard read situations.

In Smash 4...what does Mario even have? His strings do less damage in this game. He's limited to basically FLUDD to attempt outplaying Marth offstage. F-smash is harder to land for Mario without Brawl reverse mechanics. And Marth still very easily kills Mario when juggling and edgeguarding. Assuming you manage to hit Marth about the same number of times he hits you (which is being really generous), you are very likely to lose on the basis of reward, simply because you aren't surviving his juggles and edgeguards, while Marth in contrast is less vulnerable to gimps and traps in comparison. Keeping in mind you STILL don't win neutral.

Fireball is irrelevant in neutral... right?

Also, again with basing matchups around who deals more damage.
We know that Marth is still hard for Mario to fight, but if Mario
could win in past games, he can still do it here.

And stop using Mario's low damage as an excuse for why Mario loses.
It doesn't make it easier for him, but it also doesn't dictate
whether Mario wins or loses. Not to mention he's more likely to actually
LAND those hits when he gets the chance due to his attack speed.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fireballs make a world of difference in protecting Mario from juggles and edgeguards, as well as creating opportunities to approach and become aggressive. I would go as far as to say one wouldn't be a good Mario main if they don't use them.

Mario's low damage is an issue, but rather than to say it makes him a bad character, I'd rather say it doesn't make him a dominant character, because if Mario was able to do 9% U-airs and 14% B-airs (Luigi's damage), I am extremely confident Mario would be a top tier character.

As for Marth, I still don't know the match-up, mainly because I haven't fought any Marths at all. I can see Marth's mobility being a major issue for Mario, which is why I call it 60:40 Marth, but I can't see it being any worse than that since he is no longer capable of walling us to death.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fireball is irrelevant in neutral... right?

Also, again with basing matchups around who deals more damage.
We know that Marth is still hard for Mario to fight, but if Mario
could win in past games, he can still do it here.

And stop using Mario's low damage as an excuse for why Mario loses.
It doesn't make it easier for him, but it also doesn't dictate
whether Mario wins or loses. Not to mention he's more likely to actually
LAND those hits when he gets the chance due to his attack speed.

Marth has more range, more mobility than Mario (this is huge because it means Fireballs are often very risky in this matchup), and also has very fast attacks that are hard for Mario to punish on block. Mario has a slightly better U-smash and slightly better grab reward, but I don't see how this makes Mario overall better at actually landing hits in this matchup.

Low damage is not an excuse for why Mario has a lot of trouble in this game. Big damage per hit is LITERALLY the reason why Yoshi is a strong character in this game. He would not be top tier if he did not have Falco level damage, heck, he probably wouldn't even be viable because almost all his advantages hinge on his strong negative and positive states (he's hard to trap, and capitalizes hard, but he doesn't open up characters exceptionally easily). Similarly, big damage per hit was the reason Snake worked in Brawl. It just was almost never favorable to attempt fighting Snake directly in spite of him being very blatantly flawed by design.

Mario with Luigi's damage would still ultimately have issues with combos that are not as frame tight as Luigi's and a very terrible recovery and problems winning neutral. However, I would believe higher damage alone could make Mario top 15, because really. If your name isn't like...Sheik, most of the balance issues in this game really come down to risk versus reward.

 

[meleebrawler]

I wasn't specifically referring to Marth when I said
Mario landed his hits more easily, but then I also said
he lands them more easily when he gets a chance.
Mario won't have an easy time getting that chance against
a good Marth, that we all agree with.

But the high speed of Mario's moves, coupled with his
decent mobility makes it easier for him to capitalize on openings
than most, even if they don't hurt as much.

Of course, Marth also has comparable mobility which, coupled
with his range gives him the advantage, only lacking Mario's projectile.

 

[M@v]

So I guess I'm officially a Mario player now, along with Fox, Falcon, and Robin. I've been playing him enough where I feel I'd be confident to use him tourney at this point. Don't know how much I'm going to use doc still; probably only in doubles :3.

So yeah, hi guys :3

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's probably a good idea in Doubles more than singles for a lot of reasons (thanks Sakurai) hence my migration to the birds.

Of course, I always play Mario on the side. Welcome aboard!

 

[BoTastic!]

Welcome fellow Plumber/doctor/race car driver/savier of princesses

 

[vato_break]

Mario spikes well on either side of the stage in this game.

 

[T25XL]

Alright I have now gotten the game. Any pointers you guys can give me on this guy? I already learned several things about the game, and I have definitely learned mario well (I think). Match-Up advice would be awesome, and possibly Cape Brake usage, I don't think I'm using/doing Cape Brake correctly. NNID: T25XLikesMario

 

[BoTastic!]

Alright I have now gotten the game. Any pointers you guys can give me on this guy? I already learned several things about the game, and I have definitely learned mario well (I think). Match-Up advice would be awesome, and possibly Cape Brake usage, I don't think I'm using/doing Cape Brake correctly. NNID: T25XLikesMario

Use Diddy.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't think I'm using/doing Cape Brake correctly.

I don't think Cape Brake is actually legit. It might have just been Vectoring.

 

[T25XL]

I don't think Cape Brake is actually legit. It might have just been Vectoring.

Aah alright, well that kinda sucks. Welp. Any other Mario ATs?

Use Diddy.

XD

 

[Salad Bowl]

http://smashboards.com/threads/poke...hup-thread-currently-discussing-mario.384478/
we are currently discussing the mario MU in the jigglypuff MU thread. Could you guys lend a hand?

 

[Inferno3044]

T25, I think the best advice I can give you without seeing you play is to not try and become the best Mario you can. Become the best player you can. NAKAT's goal is not to be the best Ness. His goal is to be the best player and Ness is the character that he believes can help him achieve that goal. Don't worry about little mechanical character specific things as much and work more on your fundamentals. If you can't space, read, and punish you will not win regardless of your character.

As for actual Mario advice, Mario is a great character in this game. I've met a good amount of people who think he's top 10, but I personally don't see it that way. His moveset for the most part is quite fast and his moves connect pretty well. However, be aware that his range and recovery are both below average and he gets juggled fairly easily. Be sure to DI the proper way to help prevent this. For dealing with recovering, hold your jump as long as you can. If you get your jump clipped, your chances of recovering are slim.

 

[ZombieBran]

We're also discussing Mario in the Zelda boards! I don't know if any Marios will want to but feel free to chime in!

Our social thread is the most active social thread for any veteran iirc. (This is me attempting to bait you Marios into giving up your secrets for the greater good of Zelda)

 

[HeroMystic]

This is important.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-233#post-18275350

 

[T25XL]

T25, I think the best advice I can give you without seeing you play is to not try and become the best Mario you can. Become the best player you can. NAKAT's goal is not to be the best Ness. His goal is to be the best player and Ness is the character that he believes can help him achieve that goal. Don't worry about little mechanical character specific things as much and work more on your fundamentals. If you can't space, read, and punish you will not win regardless of your character.

As for actual Mario advice, Mario is a great character in this game. I've met a good amount of people who think he's top 10, but I personally don't see it that way. His moveset for the most part is quite fast and his moves connect pretty well. However, be aware that his range and recovery are both below average and he gets juggled fairly easily. Be sure to DI the proper way to help prevent this. For dealing with recovering, hold your jump as long as you can. If you get your jump clipped, your chances of recovering are slim.

Yea I don't aim to be the best player (or best player for a specific character) I just try to be the best I can be. And I've been doing pretty well with him so far, now I just need mu advice. I haven't fought all characters yet. but I've fought most of the newcomers. Anyways thank you, I appreciate it

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is important.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-233#post-18275350

It was also debunked. It's always been invincible frame 3-6.

Now something like Doc Up-B (also 3 frame startup) is a waaaay better reversal than Mario's in contrast being a single massive hit that does 13% and can kill from center stage at like 130%. Like, that move is REALLY abuseable given how dangerous it is to touch Doc's shield, and you can even reverse Up-B and still get the big hit in both the front and the back while doing something like angling yourself towards the ledge so you can't be punished.