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Mario = high teir

deadringers

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Me and my friend went up to Pittsburgh conxion tourney and we considered ourselves the favorites going in after the first two rounds we had both went undefeated and played each i barley won and long story short there was a guy there who played an epic mario. His name was stephan but how he played mario was amazing. He was super aggresive he short hopped fireballs into jabs followed by throws, down smashes ,forward smashes, and every other move mario had, he even made use of flood. He would charge the flood and aim it up following it with a cape i know i was a victim of it. I ended up losing the first 5 rounds in the finals but won the last three to take 1st in the tourney but after experience the **** train known as mario , or at least stephans mario. After experiencing his mario im convinced that marios short hop fire ball approach makes him a very useable character with the best approach game in the game even over meta knight!!!!!!!. I wish i could show you some videos but hopefully this thread instills more hope to those of you who main mario.
 

deadringers

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We went win with my friend maining MK and G&W and me maining falco and lucario we thought we had the whole chart covered but we were obviously wrong...lol..... i still cant believe we got pooped on by a mario
 

GHNeko

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That just shows you that tiers don't matter. Only the skill of a player matters when it comes down to it. I've beaten plenty of character that have superior match ups to Marth and Mario. But I've also lost to character that have worst match ups with Mario and Marth. I've lost to ganon and even captain falcon. But I've been G&Ws and alot of Snakes. Even a few MKs. Its all about Skill and Mindgaemz now.
 

Mario_ 101

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I've always known Mario = high tier (it'd be awesome if he was god tier), but the problem is not too many have either used Mario to the level your talking about or fought a good Mario. **** character popularity. Have you noticed that usually the popular characters get a lot of attention, even if in-game they suck?
 

Fatmanonice

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Same goes with Ike. If you look at the character rankings, Mario has actually won a tournament so I think that says a lot about his potential. Sonic's won one too but I think that tournament was rigged. :laugh: Really, either that was freakishly good Sonic player or everyone else was playing as Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.
 

deadringers

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Put in simplest terms mario has one of the best approaches, short hopped fireball to jab followed by anything is godlike. Marios jab properties is similar to captin falcons its very similar to a shine, and when playing characters that are considered teir who have the ability to camp his cape is very handy, call me crazy but mario has to be one of the most underrated characters in the game. As for sonic im not sure he has as much potiential as mario, but simply put, GHNeko hit it right on the spot its more or less player skill rather than the character matchup.
 

geekd

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I main olimar and even though people say the matchup is in my favor (60-40) I still get crushed by his approach and ledgegames. I **** my roomates MK and marth, but if he even plays a somewhat decent mario im spent. My prediction: mario will eventually move up the teir list
 

Fatmanonice

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While I was playing raquetball, I was thinking about Mario's weaknesses and comparing them to the ones that high tier/middle high characters have. This is what I came up with:

-Mario can be infinited by a stand and grab infinite. (So can Wario, DK, and King Dedede *yes, he can infinite himself on the edge of a stage*)

-An average recovery *some would say below average* (So do Olimar, Wolf, Falco, and Lucario)

-Easy to chaingrab (So are Snake, King Dedede, Falco, Wolf, and DK)

-Doesn't have as much KO potential compated to other characters (Neither does Wario, Lucario, and Pit)

I think this further indicates that Mario could end up being a middle high character eventually but I'm still going to go with him being middle of middle tier for awhile.
 

Roager

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I think it's funny that Mario, who's built to be the most all-around character in the game, is so often placed at the middle of the tier list. If we say there's five tiers, 1=best, 5=worst, he's easily 2 at least. His edgeguard skillz and approach possibilities are both really good, especially with the cape glide.
 

Ranjiz

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While I was playing raquetball, I was thinking about Mario's weaknesses and comparing them to the ones that high tier/middle high characters have. This is what I came up with:

-Mario can be infinited by a stand and grab infinite. (So can Wario, DK, and King Dedede *yes, he can infinite himself on the edge of a stage*)

-An average recovery *some would say below average* (So do Olimar, Wolf, Falco, and Lucario)

-Easy to chaingrab (So are Snake, King Dedede, Falco, Wolf, and DK)

-Doesn't have as much KO potential compated to other characters (Neither does Wario, Lucario, and Pit)

I think this further indicates that Mario could end up being a middle high character eventually but I'm still going to go with him being middle of middle tier for awhile.
you came up with all that while you were playing raquetball? haha well related to the topic, i'd say mario is mid-tier due to its popularity
 

ShadowLink84

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Mario's not high tier, he's middle of middle tier at best. You just played a freakishly good Mario.

@ Mario 101:

That's pretty much Sonic's situation in a nutshell. :laugh:
You do know that Sonic is actually one of the most underplayed characters right?

Y'know yeah, I am at least glad Mario is so much better than Sonic. Although some Sonic mains simply refuse to believe he sucks even today lol.
25 Sonic (3 top8, 2 wins) - 24.8333333

31 Mario (5 top8, 1 win) - 10.8958333

ignorance is not bliss.

Same goes with Ike. If you look at the character rankings, Mario has actually won a tournament so I think that says a lot about his potential. Sonic's won one too but I think that tournament was rigged. :laugh: Really, either that was freakishly good Sonic player or everyone else was playing as Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.

1: T-rex (Snake)
2: Dr Mario Kart (metaknight)
3: Mr.3000 (sonic)
4: Sethlon (falco)
5: Gnes (metaknight)
5: Sandtrap (metaknight)
7: Xyro (samus)
7: Kalo Kross (wolf)

lol wut?

Anyways moving on, I as planning to discuss a Mario vs Sonic matchup but seeing as to how the general reception on Sonic is, I cannot help but wonder if that would be wise.

Or maybe I am taking things too seriously and its all just lulz and what not. ^_^
 

lajackson07

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Mario, by definition, can't be high tier. He was created with the intent and properties that make him and limit him to middle tier. Just throwing that in after seeing the title of the thread.

-Doesn't have as much KO potential compated to other characters (Neither does Wario, Lucario, and Pit)
Don't really agree with that. Lucario and Wario have KO potential. Wario can forward smash and, most embarassing to add, fart on people for kills. Lucario, though he might not be able to at lower percents, gets stronger as he takes on damage and can easily get kills at higher percents.
 

Union of Darkness

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Mario is supposed to be the ideal all a-rounder.

-Has a projectile
-Can reflect stuff
-Average power and weight

He has great potential, but is by no means above average.
 

A2ZOMG

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Anyways moving on, I as planning to discuss a Mario vs Sonic matchup but seeing as to how the general reception on Sonic is, I cannot help but wonder if that would be wise.

Or maybe I am taking things too seriously and its all just lulz and what not. ^_^
I've played this matchup quite a bit, and I'm very sure Mario has the advantage.

Mario has better kill moves that are faster, stronger, and have better range/priority than Sonic's kill moves, he has projectile camping, and more priority on certain important attacks. Also Sonic really can't ledgeguard Mario AT ALL (spring gimping is destroyed by Mario's Up-B, not to mention all of Sonic's aerials).

Mario also has a better grab game. Mario's D-throw has better setups than Sonic's other throws, and Mario's B-throw also does more damage and has more knockback than any of Sonic's throws.

Also, Sonic hasn't established any clear advantages on any of the upper-tier characters. The ROB forums agree that Mario has the advantage (7/3, no less) over their character, and the Kirby forums currently have Mario at slight advantage over their character.
 

Fatmanonice

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You do know that Sonic is actually one of the most underplayed characters right?

I call bull. There's way too many Sonic fanboys for him to be "underplayed." Luigi is underplayed. Toon Link is underplayed. Lucas is underplayed. I've run into too many Sonic players to even slightly believe this.

1: T-rex (Snake)
2: Dr Mario Kart (metaknight)
3: Mr.3000 (sonic)
4: Sethlon (falco)
5: Gnes (metaknight)
5: Sandtrap (metaknight)
7: Xyro (samus)
7: Kalo Kross (wolf)

lol wut?

Tournaments at Gamestop with gold hammers and smash balls don't count. :p
Comments above.
 

Kitamerby

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While I was playing raquetball, I was thinking about Mario's weaknesses and comparing them to the ones that high tier/middle high characters have. This is what I came up with:

-Mario can be infinited by a stand and grab infinite. (So can Wario, DK, and King Dedede *yes, he can infinite himself on the edge of a stage*)

-An average recovery *some would say below average* (So do Olimar, Wolf, Falco, and Lucario)

-Easy to chaingrab (So are Snake, King Dedede, Falco, Wolf, and DK)

-Doesn't have as much KO potential compated to other characters (Neither does Wario, Lucario, and Pit)

I think this further indicates that Mario could end up being a middle high character eventually but I'm still going to go with him being middle of middle tier for awhile.
I'm sorry, did you just call Lucario's recovery and KO potential below average? Sir, what the hell are you smoking, and where can I get some?
 

deadringers

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So we all agree that Mario is gonna have go sit in the middle teir, ill go with that for a while but im gonna have to disagree with the lucario statements. i know when i play my lucario never have a hard time killing people, with lucario its all about staying alive when your at that golden percent 80%-120% if you can manage this you should have no problem managing kills. Btw falco can be chain grabbed but he can also chain grab well over half the cast, and if your not a scrub wario you should know that if you save your forward smash you have an amazing kill potential..... :)
 

ShadowLink84

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I've played this matchup quite a bit, and I'm very sure Mario has the advantage.

Mario has better kill moves that are faster, stronger, and have better range/priority than Sonic's kill moves, he has projectile camping, and more priority on certain important attacks. Also Sonic really can't ledgeguard Mario AT ALL (spring gimping is destroyed by Mario's Up-B, not to mention all of Sonic's aerials).
The information that is incorrect is rather bothersome.
Fsmash=Better range than Ike's Fsmash. When both Mario and Sonic's Fsmashes are stutterstepped Sonics has more range.
Mario's is only slightly more powerful than Sonic's Fsmash and that is when it is sweetspotted.
Sonic's Dsmash also has more range and priority than Mario's Dsmash though Mario's is indeed faster. I am unsure about the killing power.
Usmash Mario's is more powerful and faster but Sonic's has greater range and much more priority due to the disjointed hitbox.
Sonic's Bair as more killing power than Mario's Bair and as a bit more range on it (due to a bit of a disjointed hitbox around his foot)

Mario cannot projectile camp Sonic. The reason for this is because of sonic's spincharge and spindash which go through Mario's fireballs. So Mario isn't going to be camping Sonic very easily.
Let alone the fact that camping ith the fireballs is rather poor due to their rather slow speed and limited versatility.


Sonic also has a greater amount of strings and combos that extend to higher percentages which Mariois lacking in.
Sonic can also set up kills at certain percentages that are guaranteed. (for example a Uthrow~Bair at around 100% on Marth is unavoidable).
Sonic can set up his kills more easily and can rack up damage in case he has issues killing.

Mario is not capable of stopping his gimp game.
Sonic has far more than just his spring and his spring will stillpose advantages.
Semispike on his Dair will clash with Mario's and kill mario.
Fair and Bair both knock at a mostly horizontal angle.
The spring is still good because if you plan to ^B it you will have to do so near the ledge, and if Sonic plans to gimp you he will drop a spring early to hamper your recovery attempts. It doens't need to hit you because you'll be forced to airdodge and fall even lower, slow your aeral movement and risk getting edgehogged.
Let alone the fact that has his D tilt, grab release and D throw for placing Mario beneath the stage for an early kill.



Mario also has a better grab game. Mario's D-throw has better setups than Sonic's other throws, and Mario's B-throw also does more damage and has more knockback than any of Sonic's throws.
You are raher uninformed.

Sonic's Dthrow is better than Mario's D throw.
From a D throw Sonic can chase the opponent for another D throw or any other grab, or go into an ASC combo for a guaranteed 32%, or use it to tech chase the opponent.
The D throw by itself can be used to knock the opponent off stage for an easy gimp kill.
B throw isn't as strong as Mario's B throw but I prefer Sonic's because I can use it for setting up a string.
Though mario's is much more preferable for killing than Sonic's.

U throw is better because of the damage and also because it sets up for early Uair kills.
Fthrow setup the opponent for Fair's, Bairs, Uairs and many other potential attacks.




tier stuff
No one cares I was asking about the amtchup betwen Mario vs Sonic not who is better.


[quote="fatmanonice]I call bull. There's way too many Sonic fanboys for him to be "underplayed." Luigi is underplayed. Toon Link is underplayed. Lucas is underplayed. I've run into too many Sonic players to even slightly believe this.[/quote]

Hypocrisy for the win.
You do know that there are far more Mario fanboys than Sonic fanboys right?

Sonic is an underplayed character in TOURNAMENTS.
I can care less for how many Sonic players you have faced outside of tournament settings.
Your evidence is anecdotal and does not prove anything when nationally, Sonic is shown as being underplayed.

If you disagree you can go to Ankoku's character ranking thread and look at the tournaments yourself.

The rest of your comment is rather stupid hence I ignored it.
 

Matador

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Sonic vs Mario post
I appreciate you coming to the mario boards to share your findings on the matchup, and apologize on behalf of my mario brethren for insulting Sonic mains who're, in fact, in the same boat as we are in tournaments (if not, better).

What've you got on the matchup?
 

ShadowLink84

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On the SOnic vs Mario matchup I would rate it at about 50:50.

Sonic can tech chase, pressure and can cause issues for Mario off stage.
He also has a number of good strings and combos and once Mariois above him, Mario is going to have issues due to Sonic's Uair.
He also has longer ranged smashes.

What mario does have though is that his attack speed overall is better.
FLUDD is good for harassing sonic off stage. His smashes are overall faster with more power to tem (Usmash I am sure not sure about the Dsmashes but Mario's is faster so its easier to setup).
Mario beats out Sonic in killing power and does have the ability to face Sonic when being pressured even though he may have a bit of difficulty but nothing he cannot overcome.

His recovery may be hampered somewhat so he has to avoid trying to remain on the ledge.

From my experience and from what I have experienced and from the arguments placed earlier on the matchup thread and in a few other threads.
They don't have much over the other since they both can deal with other's strategies rather effectively.

So yeah 50:50 sounds best at the moment though I am somewhat thinking it may be a bi towards Mario though I am rather unsure about it.
 

OmegaXF

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I've always known Mario = high tier (it'd be awesome if he was god tier), but the problem is not too many have either used Mario to the level your talking about or fought a good Mario. **** character popularity. Have you noticed that usually the popular characters get a lot of attention, even if in-game they suck?
In order to achieve god tier you must first obtain Lotion and its sweet satisfaction!
But it's good to know that a freaky Mario is on the loose. In fact it's about time.
 

Matador

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I'd always figured Sonic would have trouble approaching without the spindash and spinshot because Mario's Dair >>> most of Sonic's attacks in terms of priority. Dthrows are even imo as well in terms of usefulness. At lower percentages, dthrow -> double uair -> Dsmash works well and does 42%. The moment of opportunity for the comboee to airdodge becomes longer as percentage rises, but it reduced to a few frames at 0%. Not guaranteed percentage like Sonic's dthrow, but a nice trap setup.

Not much to disagree with besides that. Sonic DOES have longer range smashes and deals with mario better offstage than Mario does him.
 

ShadowLink84

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I'd always figured Sonic would have trouble approaching without the spindash and spinshot because Mario's Dair >>> most of Sonic's attacks in terms of priority. Dthrows are even imo as well in terms of usefulness. At lower percentages, dthrow -> double uair -> Dsmash works well and does 42%. The moment of opportunity for the comboee to airdodge becomes longer as percentage rises, but it reduced to a few frames at 0%. Not guaranteed percentage like Sonic's dthrow, but a nice trap setup.

Not much to disagree with besides that. Sonic DOES have longer range smashes and deals with mario better offstage than Mario does him.
Actually Sonic doesn't rely on his spinshots and spincharges as a means of approach. Of course he also has his DAC, and he can cancel his dash movement, he can also use his dash shield grab for getting close. He also has his ASC. So he isn't just limited to it.
The Dair is good but I find that it isn't too hard to avoid due to its lack of amobility and I can break it with a well spaced Bair or Uair.

I am not sure abut the combo since I don't see how Mario could connect the Dsmash without Sonic ^Bing away from it.
I'll have to test it out.

Many of Sonic's combos work until higher percentages. His regular grounded spincharge 2x ~any aerial does from 26~32%
An ASC combo does 29~43% consistently.

I am unfamiliar with what Mario can do at higher percentages in terms of racking up damage or his potential strings since I tend to play a bit more defensively due to Mario's higher overall attack speed.
 

Matador

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Actually Sonic doesn't rely on his spinshots and spincharges as a means of approach. Of course he also has his DAC, and he can cancel his dash movement, he can also use his dash shield grab for getting close. He also has his ASC. So he isn't just limited to it.
The Dair is good but I find that it isn't too hard to avoid due to its lack of amobility and I can break it with a well spaced Bair or Uair.
Mario's dair is a powerful approach method because a shdair autocancels and has very good priority (goes thru MK's nado). If Sonic's Bair and Uair, spaced properly, outprioritizes this, then it doesn't mean much. I was under the delusion that Sonic didn't have any attacks besides his B attacks that go thru Mario's Dair.

I'd have to agree with this matchup being about even given that Mario doesn't edgeguard Sonic in any sense of the word, and his fireball approach is hindered; mario's bread and butter.
 

OverLade

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Mario has a nice edge over a lot of characters. A good mario can hold his own versus even a good Metaknight player, though Metaknight's pro gimping skills win in the end.

Mario has horrible weaknesses though, like Marth. Mario will NEVER outspace Marth.

His poor recovery and slight difficulty in killing his opponent puts him at Mid tier though. If Mario had a better recovery, he would rock so hard though.
 

Falconv1.0

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His recovery alone keeps him from being mid tier.

Nice one not being able to spell the **** name to your topic right. In fact, next time you have a thought-drop it.
 

Matador

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Mario has a nice edge over a lot of characters. A good mario can hold his own versus even a good Metaknight player, though Metaknight's pro gimping skills win in the end.

Mario has horrible weaknesses though, like Marth. Mario will NEVER outspace Marth.

His poor recovery and slight difficulty in killing his opponent puts him at Mid tier though. If Mario had a better recovery, he would rock so hard though.
Poor recovery? Difficulty getting kills? Mario's only weakness is range.

Mario's recovery sucks distance-wise, but is dangerous to gimp because of his high priority upB and fireballs to protect his approach to the stage. His upB also stage spikes during his recovery if you come in low.

Mario's kill power is just as good as someone like Lucario's. His above-average edgeguarding ability helps with this as well.
 

A2ZOMG

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Mario is not capable of stopping his gimp game.
Sonic has far more than just his spring and his spring will stillpose advantages.
Semispike on his Dair will clash with Mario's and kill mario.
Fair and Bair both knock at a mostly horizontal angle.
The spring is still good because if you plan to ^B it you will have to do so near the ledge, and if Sonic plans to gimp you he will drop a spring early to hamper your recovery attempts. It doens't need to hit you because you'll be forced to airdodge and fall even lower, slow your aeral movement and risk getting edgehogged.
Let alone the fact that has his D tilt, grab release and D throw for placing Mario beneath the stage for an early kill.
You haven't seen how long I survive against Sonic lolololol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Oa9TWDUrEk

Also, Sonic's D-air is absolutely terrible for ledgeguarding Mario. If he goes off stage, that's a potentially free Smash attack or ledgehog for Mario.

You are raher uninformed.

Sonic's Dthrow is better than Mario's D throw.
From a D throw Sonic can chase the opponent for another D throw or any other grab, or go into an ASC combo for a guaranteed 32%, or use it to tech chase the opponent.
The D throw by itself can be used to knock the opponent off stage for an easy gimp kill.
B throw isn't as strong as Mario's B throw but I prefer Sonic's because I can use it for setting up a string.
Though mario's is much more preferable for killing than Sonic's.

U throw is better because of the damage and also because it sets up for early Uair kills.
Fthrow setup the opponent for Fair's, Bairs, Uairs and many other potential attacks.
No, Mario's D-throw is better. It is a very good setup into U-airs at low percents, which can chain til about 40-60% repeatedly.

Sonic has very few reliable or desireable techchase options since the D-throw puts people very far away from him. That also assumes that the opponent can't tech the throw, or always does something that Sonic can predict.

Also Mario's B-throw does about 3% more than Sonic's. Making it of course much better for raw damage dealing than any of Sonic's throws.
 

Kiwikomix

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@ Falconv1.0: I'm doing my very, very best to find a topic where you haven't acted like a **** and I haven't found it yet.

@ Matador: Is Mario's lack of killing options no longer an issue? I know in Melee he pretty much only had fsmash, dsmash and b-throw. That and edgeguarding, but that would seem to have been nerfed overall in Brawl anyway. I wouldn't know, I haven't played enough with him in Brawl to understand his "finer points".
 

Matador

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@ Matador: Is Mario's lack of killing options no longer an issue? I know in Melee he pretty much only had fsmash, dsmash and b-throw. That and edgeguarding, but that would seem to have been nerfed overall in Brawl anyway. I wouldn't know, I haven't played enough with him in Brawl to understand his "finer points".
His edgeguarding is definitely his strongest point. An up-angled Fsmash kills most at about 100%, and heavier opponents at 120%. Whoever doesn't get KO'd is most often edgeguarded unless they're G&W, Sonic, or MK. Usmash is also a great KO move because of its excellent range. KOs were his biggest problem on melee, now it's just range due to the absence of wavedashing.
 

Fatmanonice

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I'm sorry, did you just call Lucario's recovery and KO potential below average? Sir, what the hell are you smoking, and where can I get some?
Lucario's recovery is the only recovery in the game that doesn't do damage is both predictible (edge taken? He's going to loop it) and can be easily edgehogged. Only a few of Lucario's moves have a decent amount of KO potential no matter how much damage Lucario has : Dsmash and Fsmash. The strength of the Aura Sphere (along with his "killing" aerials like bair) is entirelly based on how much damage he takes and I wouldn't say that dair is 100% dependible. I'd personally compare it to the Wario Waft because, if you have enough experience against said players, you'd expect it certain situations.
 
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