Mario = high teir

[ShadowLink84]

You haven't seen how long I survive against Sonic lolololol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Oa9TWDUrEk

Anyone will survive against an idiot.
That Sonic is bad so do not see why you would even use such an example.

Also, Sonic's D-air is absolutely terrible for ledgeguarding Mario. If he goes off stage, that's a potentially free Smash attack or ledgehog for Mario.

You must be joking yes?
Sonic can Dair then jump and use his ^B. Or he can jump and homing attack.
If you try to hit SOnic out of the Dair when he does it initially, you WILL get semispiked.
Its a good edgeguard due to Mario's lack of vertical recovery.

No, Mario's D-throw is better. It is a very good setup into U-airs at low percents, which can chain til about 40-60% repeatedly.

Dthrow~Dthrow~ASC~Uair~Uair

8+7+17+11+11= 44%damage
Assuming he lands the 2nd D throw in which case he can cut that part out entirely and go for a regular grounded spincharge to a Uair which is guaranteed to hit since the opponent cannot shield it in time nor will they be able to dodge it in time.
And thats assume the opponent techs off the ground.

Let alone what he can after the D throw.

Sonic has very few reliable or desirable techchase options since the D-throw puts people very far away from him. That also assumes that the opponent can't tech the throw, or always does something that Sonic can predict.

You sound like an idiot.
Far away from him?
They do not go much farther than MK's D throw and Sonic's ground speed is so quick that he will catch up to the opponent as soon as they hit the ground or land on it.
Sonic has plenty of options.
Another throw, aerials,, ASC combo, Usmash.

The reason he is capable of such things is because of his dash speed.

Obviously you have so very little experience using Sonic otherwise you would not say something so silly as Sonic's D throw being limited.

If the opponent SDI's Sonic's D throw they are still going to get chased.

Also Mario's B-throw does about 3% more than Sonic's. Making it of course much better for raw damage dealing than any of Sonic's throws.

And this matters how?

I prefer being to set up my opponent for an additional ten percent even if it means losing out on 3% damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You must be joking yes?
Sonic can Dair then jump and use his ^B. Or he can jump and homing attack.
If you try to hit SOnic out of the Dair when he does it initially, you WILL get semispiked.
Its a good edgeguard due to Mario's lack of vertical recovery.

By the time Mario is even in the range where Sonic can use his D-air, he's going to make it to the ledge.

And the point of that video is even though that Sonic just died, he was completely unable to kill with any of his aerials. I survived his B-air and his U-air.

And this matters how?

I prefer being to set up my opponent for an additional ten percent even if it means losing out on 3% damage.

Grabbing is extremely common in Brawl. Being able to tack on more damage per throw due a lack of consistent combos actually makes a big difference.

Sonic's B-throw also makes people face backwards, which is not the direction Sonic wants to approach most characters from, except for maybe ROB.

 

[Fatmanonice]

His recovery alone keeps him from being mid tier.

Nice one not being able to spell the **** name to your topic right. In fact, next time you have a thought-drop it.

And yet you argue that Ike is mid tier despite his recovery being worse (you can airdodge in front of his quickdraw recovery to stop it for God's sake), his almost inability to string attacks together, lag on most of his moves, having an off stage game that's almost as bad as Link's, virtually nothing to help him with projectile spam, being easier than Mario to chain grab, easily juggled, easily shield grabbed, etc... Don't be a prick, nobody likes a prick.

 

[ShadowLink84]

By the time Mario is even in the range where Sonic can use his D-air, he's going to make it to the ledge.

Jump off the ledge,and Dair Mario when he is farther out. Problem solved. Sonic will still be able to recover.

And the point of that video is even though that Sonic just died, he was completely unable to kill with any of his aerials. I survived his B-air and his U-air.

Yes cause you totally did NOT see those moves coming.
That Sonic behaved very predictably so its no surprise.
his Fsmash as not stutterstepped, lack of Dsmashes.
That Sonic sucked.

Grabbing is extremely common in Brawl. Being able to tack on more damage per throw due a lack of consistent combos actually makes a big difference.

Um no.
combos>individual damage.
Considering DDD can rack up over 40% damage from his CG proves your theory wrong.
Why place your opponent away from you where you cannot maintain pressure and continue building up damage?

Sonic's B-throw also makes people face backwards, which is not the direction Sonic wants to approach most characters from, except for maybe ROB.

Backwards is bad? Considerin at that point he is in a perfect situation to Bair them or Uair themyour point is rather poor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Um no.
combos>individual damage.
Considering DDD can rack up over 40% damage from his CG proves your theory wrong.
Why place your opponent away from you where you cannot maintain pressure and continue building up damage?

You forget, one of DDD's other best throws covered by the Back Room is his B-throw, which does 16%. Which he definitely wants to use to punish recovering opponents.

Damage per throw matters a lot. This is one reason why people try to tack on grab attacks before throwing. The other being diminishing returns.

Backwards is bad? Considerin at that point he is in a perfect situation to Bair them or Uair themyour point is rather poor.

Most characters are difficult to punish from directly behind due to generally having better back aerials than Forward aerials. Mario and Sonic are no exception to this. ROB on the other hand is an exception because his Back air is really easy to see coming..

 

[ShadowLink84]

You forget, one of DDD's other best throws covered by the Back Room is his B-throw, which does 16%. Which he definitely wants to use to punish recovering opponents.

So?
If he only did a backthrow thats only 16%.
Meanwhile if he does a Dthrow~Dthrow~Dthrow~Dthrow~Bthrow thats a nice amoun t of damage. Event though the D throw does lesser damage it makes up for it in the fact that DDD can land consecutive hits.

Damage per throw matters a lot. This is one reason why people try to tack on grab attacks before throwing. The other being diminishing returns.

Read the above.
The reason they tack it on is because when the throw decays they actually get thrown farther than they are supposed to be thrown.
Which is why DDD tacks on a headbutt before a Dthrow during the Luigi infinite.

Most characters are difficult to punish from directly behind due to generally having better back aerials than Forward aerials. Mario and Sonic are no exception to this. ROB on the other hand is an exception because his Back air is really easy to see coming..

You must be kidding because ROB's B throw has a massive amount of priorityHe can Bair several times and still be capable of returning. Hence why Sonic will want to use an Fthrow or D throw on ROB because when ROB has his back to you, he can time his Bair during which his entire body is a hitbox.

Yeah they may have better aerials in general, but considering that Sonic's Bair has good range it makes up for it.
If the opponent DI's up Sonic can poke at them with his Uair.

So while Mario's may kill better Sonic's is a bit more versatile in that he can follow up with it more.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Mario is infinitely better in the air than Sonic for many reasons, the fact is that Mario can hit standing opponents and wall much better than Sonic, as well as do multiple aerials and semi-combos, as well as chain into grabs.

Mario's standing game is also so much better than Sonic's, and Sonic is pretty limited vs. Fireballs.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Mario is infinitely better in the air than Sonic for many reasons, the fact is that Mario can hit standing opponents and wall much better than Sonic, as well as do multiple aerials and semi-combos, as well as chain into grabs.

Mario's standing game is also so much better than Sonic's, and Sonic is pretty limited vs. Fireballs.

Regarding the fireballs, that's a very good point and I was wondering if that was brought up yet. It's almost like Wario's chomp, it stops all of the attacks that involve going into a ball and then some: dash attack, both spin dashes, the homing attack, Nair, dair and I think it outprioritizes Sonic's fair too. I'd also like to add that FLUDD works better on Sonic than most characters because of his poor aerial mobility.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually Sonic's aerial mobility isn't poor. It's just that it's a lot slower than his running speed.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Mario is infinitely better in the air than Sonic for many reasons,

Woah I recommend you slow down for a moment.

the fact is that Mario can hit standing opponents [/quot]
Standing opponents?

and wall much better than Sonic,

Sonic doesn't wall much anyway so I fail to see why you mention this.

as well as do multiple aerials and semi-combos, as well as chain into grabs.

I recommend you use Sonic a bit more before making such claims.

Uair~Uair~Uair anyone?
Fair~Fair?
Fair~Nair?

Let alone how he can string together multiple aerials on an opponent.

uair~Uair~homing attack.

ASC~Uair~homing attack.

Mario is not as capable as Sonic is.
Sonic is faster in the air than mario is (6th best in terms of speed) and has more ability to manipulate the opponent once they are in the air. He can chase opponents on a level that mario cannot do and his spinshotting means his aerial approaches and chases are good as well.

I would give Sonic the advantage when it comes to aerial ability.
Mario is mor capable in terms of ground ability though.

Mario's standing game is also so much better than Sonic's, and Sonic is pretty limited vs. Fireballs.

Standing?
And Sonic is far from limited by fireballs cosidering his spindash/Fair can eat through them very easily.

Regarding the fireballs, that's a very good point and I was wondering if that was brought up yet.

They weren't because anyone who knows what Sonic is capable of knows that the fireballs are bad.

It's almost like Wario's chomp, it stops all of the attacks that involve going into a ball and then some: dash attack, both spin dashes, the homing attack, Nair, dair and I think it outprioritizes Sonic's fair too.

You must be kidding right?

Sindash=breaks fireballs
Spincharge=clank
Homing attack=clank
Nair=clank(initial frames only)
Dair=unstable. I ahve been hit by fireballs and broken them before so I'll need to test it
Fair=Breaks it

If Pit's arrows cannot wall Sonic what makes you think the fireballs will?

I'd also like to add that FLUDD works better on Sonic than most characters because of his poor aerial mobility.

Sonic is 6th in terms of aerial mobility so FLUDD does not work on him very well.
let alone the fact he has spinshot, spindash and his hming attack as well as his spring.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Woah I recommend you slow down for a moment.

They weren't because anyone who knows what Sonic is capable of knows that the fireballs are bad.

Bad as in bad for Sonic or bad against him?

You must be kidding right?

Sindash=breaks fireballs And stops Sonic? If Fireballs can stop Jigglypuff's Rollout (even when it's fully charged) and Yoshi's Eggroll, then they can definately stop Sonic's spindash.

Spincharge=clank When you say "clank", are you suggesting that Sonic completely "eats" the attack or that it stops the attack but Sonic doesn't take any damage?

Homing attack=clank See above.

Nair=clank(initial frames only)
Dair=unstable. I ahve been hit by fireballs and broken them before so I'll need to test it
Fair=Breaks it Good, we have that established. Thanks for clearing that up.

If Pit's arrows cannot wall Sonic what makes you think the fireballs will?

When did I say that Mario had to camp with them to be effective? In fact, it's very hard to effectively camp with them against most characters.

Sonic is 6th in terms of aerial mobility so FLUDD does not work on him very well.
let alone the fact he has spinshot, spindash and his hming attack as well as his spring.

6th? How do you figure especially when one of the reasons why the Wario vs Sonic matchup is complete **** because of this?

See above.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Bad as in bad for Sonic or bad against him?

Bad against him.

If Fireballs can stop Jigglypuff's Rollout (even when it's fully charged) and Yoshi's Eggroll, then they can definately stop Sonic's spindash.

Ugh you must be joking.
Priority

Sonic's spindash>>>>>>>>>Yoshi's eggroll>Jigglypuff's roll.

During the initial hop Sonic's spindash has NO hurtbox and has more priority than the last two rolls.

When you say "clank", are you suggesting that Sonic completely "eats" the attack or that it stops the attack but Sonic doesn't take any damage?

They cancel each other.

When did I say that Mario had to camp with them to be effective? In fact, it's very hard to effectively camp with them against most characters.

Well he cannot use them as a means of approach either since Sonic can just break through them with the spindash.


He is 6th in terms of aerial speed.


From 3GOD:
I was interested in knowing which characters had the "best" aerial movement. Particularly, who is the fastest in the air horizontally? I ran two different tests with very similar results.



For the first test, I made a custom stage (Large) with blocks along the
bottom (18 blocks) and platforms all the way up the left side creating
a sort of "landing strip." I then had each character (one by one) go to
the right edge of the top platform and held right to see how far each
character got (how many blocks he/she traveled horizontally) and how
much time it took. For each of these, I captured the video and analyzed
it to estimate how many "blocks" he/she traveled and get the amount of
time. These estimates were a little rough since it's hard to say
exactly what fraction of a block has been traveled when the character
lands. I wanted another test to get more accurate results.



For the second test, I altered my custom stage such that the "landing
strip" only had 6 blocks with a wall of blocks on the right of the 6th
block. I made each character teeter at the edge of the top platform and
recorded the time (via video capture/analysis) it took for that
character to travel from the edge of the platform to the wall. I had to
make one exception for this test; King Dedede has such slow movement
that I had to shorten the strip to 5 blocks in order to make him hit
the wall before he hit the ground (I wanted to avoid jumping in these
tests). The results of this test were generally VERY close to my first
test results, so I think that both results are pretty good with the 2nd
probably being a little better.



Anyway, I can describe these tests in more detail later if people
desire it, but I believe the 2nd test gives fairly accurate results.
I've sorted them from fastest in the air (Yoshi) to slowest in the air
(King Dedede), and I've included their average horizontal air speed (in
"blocks per second").



Character - Horizontal Air Speed



"S Class"

Yoshi - 4.04

Jigglypuff - 3.87

Wario - 3.71

Wolf - 3.63

Captain Falcon - 3.63



"A Class"

Sonic - 3.36

Donkey Kong - 3.36

Lucas - 3.30

Bowser - 3.30

Squirtle - 3.27

Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24

Marth - 3.24



"B Class"

Zero Suit Samus - 3.13

Charizard - 3.07

Zelda - 3.02

Samus - 2.97

Lucario - 2.95

Ness - 2.92

Mario - 2.92



"C Class"

Snake - 2.88

Toon Link - 2.83

Ike - 2.83

Pikachu - 2.74

Peach - 2.74

R.O.B. - 2.70

Pit - 2.70

Fox - 2.70

Falco - 2.70



"D Class"

Ganondorf - 2.62

Kirby - 2.59

Sheik - 2.57

Olimar - 2.55

Diddy Kong - 2.50

Link - 2.45



"F Class"

Meta Knight - 2.35

Ivysaur - 2.32

Ice Climbers - 2.32

Luigi - 2.29

King Dedede - 2.10

 

[ROOOOY!]

Fatmanonice, Spindash is the one with the hop when it starts up. That hop that has very high priority at the start of it. It may be invincibility frames, but I'm not sure. Either way that hop beats out both Yoshi's Eggroll and Jiggly's Rollout, and goes through fireballs.
Sonic has many..tidbits that people are either unaware about or choose to ignore.
Looks like I was beaten to the punch by SL lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOOW!


XD

Yeah it has invincibility frames. About 3 or 4 frames after the hop starts he has NO HURTBOX.Seriously Wolf's lasers pass THROUGH him. He' all hitbox at that point. Its the same timing as Ike's nuetral B.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I honestly deserved that :\

 

[ShadowLink84]

Spoiler

TenYou'retooslow

 

[Fatmanonice]

"They cancel each other." Thus stopping the attack.

Regarding the data you posted, does it take into consideration attack movements? For example, Mario and Ness have a fairly easy time stringing aerial attacks together while characters like Sonic and Bowser, despite how they are listed on this chart, don't.

 

[Matador]

Woah I recommend you slow down for a moment.



Mario is not as capable as Sonic is.
Sonic is faster in the air than mario is (6th best in terms of speed) and has more ability to manipulate the opponent once they are in the air. He can chase opponents on a level that mario cannot do and his spinshotting means his aerial approaches and chases are good as well.

let alone the fact he has spinshot, spindash and his hming attack as well as his spring.

I'll have to disagree here. Sonic is much better with pressuring his opponent and chasing them after attacks, but his attack options aren't better than Mario's for comboing. Uairs, Nairs, and Bairs all naturally lead into each other until kill percentages.

Thought I'd add that Mario's jab game is better as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah. Sonic is capable of stringing his attacks up to higher percentages since his attacks tend to place the opponent in a position where he can easily continue the attack.

His spring allows him to pursue opponents who have tried to double jump away and his spinshot lets him pursue characters who have been popped horizontally away.

his overall ability to chase the opponent is why I say he is better, not just because of the possible strings.

Jab game is definitely better than Sonic's though.


When I use Mario I just cannot follow up my attacks as I can. yes I can combo a bit more easily, but I cannot string as easily at higher percents nor am I as fast in the air and th lack of a fast Fair makes me rather sad.

 

[BoTastic!]

When I use Mario I just cannot follow up my attacks as I can. yes I can combo a bit more easily, but I cannot string as easily at higher percents nor am I as fast in the air and th lack of a fast Fair makes me rather sad.

hmm maybe its because ur not used to him. Like i can't use sonic at all. so i can't really say anything but..

Mario can string several uairs to a character. its even a lot better on heavy characters like DK. even i they dodged an Uair, mario's attack is so great in the air that he can follow up with a Dair, Bair, or another Uair to still hit them after the dodging animation is over.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well I can string the Uairs fine at lower percents.
its at around 70% that I have issues because my opponents tend to SDI more horizontlaly to place themselves out of range.

 

[Matador]

Yeah. Sonic is capable of stringing his attacks up to higher percentages since his attacks tend to place the opponent in a position where he can easily continue the attack.

His spring allows him to pursue opponents who have tried to double jump away and his spinshot lets him pursue characters who have been popped horizontally away.

his overall ability to chase the opponent is why I say he is better, not just because of the possible strings.

Jab game is definitely better than Sonic's though.


When I use Mario I just cannot follow up my attacks as I can. yes I can combo a bit more easily, but I cannot string as easily at higher percents nor am I as fast in the air and th lack of a fast Fair makes me rather sad.

Basically, Sonic's better at higher percentages because of his ability to chase his opponents and Mario can't. Mario's better at handling characters at lower percentages because his attacks lead into each other then, and don't require much chasing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I find that a bit worse though because opponents tend to live to higher percentages due to the improvement of DI.
Hmm if we combined Sonic and Mario's qualities would it be ****?

I think it would be.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I find that a bit worse though because opponents tend to live to higher percentages due to the improvement of DI.
Hmm if we combined Sonic and Mario's qualities would it be ****?

I think it would be.

Most definately. Throw in a more dependible projectile and a chain grab and you'd essentially have a top/high tier character.

 

[Trapt497]

Mario = high teir

You spelled tier wrong, bud.

Its ok everyone does it.

That just shows you that tiers don't matter. Only the skill of a player matters when it comes down to it. I've beaten plenty of character that have superior match ups to Marth and Mario. But I've also lost to character that have worst match ups with Mario and Marth. I've lost to ganon and even captain falcon. But I've been G&Ws and alot of Snakes. Even a few MKs. Its all about Skill and Mindgaemz now.

QFT.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Nevermind...

 

[Matador]

Most definately. Throw in a more dependible projectile and a chain grab and you'd essentially have a top/high tier character.

Screw that, give him a disjointed hitbox and a pair of wings. THEN Sario (or Monic) would pwn

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nah they don't need wings. Sonic's ^B is enough.
Dodge frames=****

What Sonic needs is priority. Mario has it so we'll replace Sonic's Nair with Mario's sex kick.
What Mario needs is a better recovery and projectile so he gets Sonic's ^B and Pit's arrows.

Or they can just do the fusion dance.

 

[Matador]

Nah they don't need wings. Sonic's ^B is enough.
Dodge frames=****

What Sonic needs is priority. Mario has it so we'll replace Sonic's Nair with Mario's sex kick.
What Mario needs is a better recovery and projectile so he gets Sonic's ^B and Pit's arrows.

Or they can just do the fusion dance.

*imagines Mario shooting arrows like pit, or Sonic doing a sex kick*

Lulz

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic should have gotten his Dair from Sonic battle.

It spiked and was just as fast as his current Dair. It would be epic.
I would probably play Sonic just for the spiking (hell its why I secondary falco)

 

[Matador]

Sonic should have gotten his Dair from Sonic battle.

It spiked and was just as fast as his current Dair. It would be epic.
I would probably play Sonic just for the spiking (hell its why I secondary falco)

He should've gotten his everything from sonic battle. Sonic was awesome in that game, definitely showed him in a different light. Sonic Flare should've been his Fsmash

 

[ShadowLink84]

I honestly would prefer Hyper Sonic and his seizure causing screen flash of doom.

I really don't understand why they gave Sonic the movesets that they did.

I understand he was put in rather late but its no excuse for the shoddy programming and stupid movesets.

Though the spindashand ^B were of course excusable. Homing attack not so much.

 

[Falconv1.0]

And yet you argue that Ike is mid tier despite his recovery being worse (you can airdodge in front of his quickdraw recovery to stop it for God's sake), his almost inability to string attacks together, lag on most of his moves, having an off stage game that's almost as bad as Link's, virtually nothing to help him with projectile spam, being easier than Mario to chain grab, easily juggled, easily shield grabbed, etc... Don't be a prick, nobody likes a prick.

You brought that argument to the Ike boards and got butthurt, don't get in my face about it.

No one uses QD to recover, get that **** out of your head. He has some good quick moves like Fair and Bair, his Nair is great, jab is great, his dair spike is amazing, and his uair is great for platforms. Ike is prolly lower mid tier, and most people seem to agree with that.

 

[BoTastic!]

No one uses QD to recover, get that **** out of your head.

oh yeah? so when ur far off horizontally off the stage u use aether? no.. just no.. and even if u use Aether its still horrifically edgeguarded by sheik, kirby, MK, Mario, Marth, jiggz, Peach and even Link. Theres lots more who can gimp him so easily so Ike's recovery is still bad.

 

[Matador]

I honestly would prefer Hyper Sonic and his seizure causing screen flash of doom.

lol, I meant his heavy attack, the one where he sorta breakdances to knock them away. It was the last attack in his combo.

And yeah, there was plenty to pull a decent moveset from. Just decided to put one together themselves I suppose.[/QUOTE]

You brought that argument to the Ike boards and got butthurt, don't get in my face about it.

No one uses QD to recover, get that **** out of your head. He has some good quick moves like Fair and Bair, his Nair is great, jab is great, his dair spike is amazing, and his uair is great for platforms. Ike is prolly lower mid tier, and most people seem to agree with that.

Most people agree that all of Middle tier and lower is a toss-up. Ike's problem is not his attackspeed or moveset. Ike's movement speed, extreme vulnerability to comboing, and piss-poor recovery is what holds him back. He also has no method of dealing with camping and projectile spam. Too many characters can take advantage of this for him to be middle tier based on anything but tourney results.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You brought that argument to the Ike boards and got butthurt, don't get in my face about it.

No one uses QD to recover, get that **** out of your head. He has some good quick moves like Fair and Bair, his Nair is great, jab is great, his dair spike is amazing, and his uair is great for platforms. Ike is prolly lower mid tier, and most people seem to agree with that.

What arguement? That Ike being middle tier is definately a stretch or that Mario's recovery isn't that great? Also, how could you never use quick draw to recover? That makes zero sense. Aether definately doesn't get the job done except when your close up and has even less horizontal movement than Kirby's Final Cutter. It's be virtually impossible for Ike to live past like 60% if he were knocked off the stage if what you are saying was true. Heck, all someone like Mario or the Ice Climbers would have to do is spam their projectiles to knock him back just a tiny bit to royally screw up his recovery if he always depended on aether.

Fair has a decent amount of ending and landing lag, bair is great in the air but probably half the roster can duck under a RAR'd one on the ground, jab is fairly easy to shield grab and some characters can even get an attack in before the third hit, in the right hands, a lot of characters have great spikes, and uair's in general are good for platforms (including Mario).

Ike doesn't have that many great matchups either because, as already mentioned, anyone with a decent projectile, off stage game, or decent aerial mobility can take advantage of him. Ike was once said to have an advantage over a lot of characters but that has greatly changed as time has passed. Metaknight? You wish. Mr. Game and Watch? Nope. Diddy Kong? Sorry. Ness? Not anymore. Pikachu? Maybe against the computer now. As you can see, a lot has changed and Ike is no where close to the high tier spot that people once imagined him at.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario pwns Ike, Ike has range and can be annoying if your opponent is good at spacing but his approach is terrible, he's easily juggled, and his recovery must be one of the easiest to gimp in the game. If anything, people should be complaining about how much Ike sucks, not Mario.

 

[boss8]

mario is what tier you make him.......apparently i think my mario is top tier.......

due to tthe fact that i have no trouble with metaknight/snake/deedee/falco/gAw/wario.....etc..

 

[Matador]

Vids or it didn't happen, Boss

 

[lajackson07]

Mario pwns Ike, Ike has range and can be annoying if your opponent is good at spacing but his approach is terrible, he's easily juggled, and his recovery must be one of the easiest to gimp in the game. If anything, people should be complaining about how much Ike sucks, not Mario.

Have you looked at the Ike boards?