• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
Thread closed for now because the answer to most of your questions is:
No.

Unless it's something ending lag, attribute based. And if so, until we have a flow of that information coming in, you should message me (or another applicable mod if I'm asleep) to reopen this thread or append things to the OP.
You can probably go to your character boards and ask if they think there's anything looming.
 
Last edited:

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
I'm testing Link's frames and every single one of his normals causes more shieldstun. With the way the numbers are changed I think this means that there was a change to the formula for shieldstun.

Jab 1: Shieldstun increased from 1 frames to 4.

Jab 2: Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 4.

Jab 3: Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 5.

F-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

D-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 9.

U-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 4 frames to 8.

The shieldstun for the rest of his normals change in a similar pattern.

In addition to this it appears that hitlag modifiers on shield may have changed again. Link's f-smash 2 originally had 12 frames of self shieldlag and the opponent only had 10. Now both Link and the opponent have 12 frames of hitlag. His uncharged spin attack was 10 frames of opponent shieldlag, 11 frames of self shieldlag; now it's 11 frames for both. Full charge was 13 frames of opponent shieldlag, 15 frames of self shieldlag; now it's 15 frames for both.

So what does this mean? Well, not only does it mean that potentially everyone is safer on shield, it also means that some multi-hitting moves are true blockstrings now. So you block one hit you're forced to block the rest. Yoshi/Wario/Mario d-air, Mega Man b-air, Sonic/Dedede/Ryu f-tilt are some examples. Not all multi-hitting moves are like this though (e.g. Fox/Jigglypuff/Dr Mario/Kirby d-air, Super Pit Bros/Lucas n-air, Super Pit Bros/Pikachu f-air, Pikachu b-air, rapid jabs), so I'll have to look into why (most likely because even with the shieldstun increase, the gap between the hits on those attacks is just large enough).

I'm gonna check Ryu and Marth next to see what impact this has on them.

This patch was not as insignificant as some may have thought.
So it looks like the engine change from the last patch was reverted, shield hit lag now = hit lag?
We'd need to see on moves with lots of hit lag to be sure, but shielding characters are receiving more hit lag.

Shield stun is seemingly up as well... significantly so...
I'm guessing shield stun now has a base of 3 (from 0) and is scaling slightly better I'll have to run some numbers as we get more to see if I can figure out quickly (fortunately all my shield safety stuff from my data topic will be easy to update!!!).
 

jmanup85

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
382
Location
Orlando,FL
NNID
jmanup85
3DS FC
1633-4569-8126
So it looks like the engine change from the last patch was reverted, shield hit lag now = hit lag?
We'd need to see on moves with lots of hit lag to be sure, but shielding characters are receiving more hit lag.

Shield stun is seemingly up as well... significantly so...
I'm guessing shield stun now has a base of 3 (from 0) and is scaling slightly better I'll have to run some numbers as we get more to see if I can figure out quickly (fortunately all my shield safety stuff from my data topic will be easy to update!!!).
Question, is that why this happens?

https://twitter.com/_infrom_/status/649196617187246080?ref_src
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
Most looping hitboxes in the game that I've seen in recent times tend to hit 1 out of 3 frames or 2 out of 3 frames. In the latter case it ensured that the move could not be shield dropped in between. If a move now has a minimum of 3 frames of shield stun there would be no gap available to drop shield or start another shield drop action.

So.... very very likely.

Also
[9/30/2015 8:00:01 PM] JP: And I feel like changing shield damage is, pretty weird by itself
[9/30/2015 8:00:15 PM] JP: I wonder if something else mechanic came with it
Currently 12.48AM

CALLED IT.
 
Last edited:

Antonykun

Hero of Many Faces
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
6,727
3DS FC
1049-0472-0051
So it looks like the engine change from the last patch was reverted, shield hit lag now = hit lag?
We'd need to see on moves with lots of hit lag to be sure, but shielding characters are receiving more hit lag.

Shield stun is seemingly up as well... significantly so...
I'm guessing shield stun now has a base of 3 (from 0) and is scaling slightly better I'll have to run some numbers as we get more to see if I can figure out quickly (fortunately all my shield safety stuff from my data topic will be easy to update!!!).
does that mean Sonic is a bigger pain now?
 

Iron Kraken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
381
I'm not confirming anything but from what I've heard it seems like shields have been made weaker (thus why shield breaking moves were nerfed, otherwise they would have been automatic shield breaks in this new patch.) There also seems to be more shield stun, and less shield pushback.

This could be huge.
 
Last edited:

Iron Kraken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
381
Some multi-hit moves like Rosalina's rapid jab and Lucario's Aura Sphere charge seem much more difficult to roll away safely from.
 

Horseketchup

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
74
So the previous shieldstun formula the community came up with was:

X/2.58

By base 3 increase, would that mean that it's now:

(X+3) / 2.58

or

(X / 2.58) + 3

Either way this rules....I can't contain my happiness
 
Last edited:

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Smash Detective
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
3,969
Location
WinMelee, Australia
Ok, so I followed the exact same procedure outlined in this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/ in 'lab scenario 2' which was written pre-patch, and instead of Link having a 1 frame advantage, he now has a 5 frame advantage. This would seem to indicate (at this very early stage at least) that moves are safer on shield.
 
Last edited:

Jamurai

Victory is my destiny
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
531
Location
UK
NNID
Jamurai92
This might explain why strong shield breakers were nerfed. Increased shield stun means you're forced to hold shield for longer, which against strong shield breakers is maybe a tad too strong; shieldbreaker --> 3 HP left on my shield --> have to hold it b/c shield stun --> broken shield. So the shield breakers were nerfed in case the shield stun change made them a bit too easy to break shields with.

This also explains the Lucario video from earlier where Falco couldn't drop his shield against Lucario's aura sphere charging hitbox because it hit him too frequently meaning he was in constant shield stun.
 

q_e_d

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
12
Location
Germany
So did Sheik become even more impossible to punish now?
Pretty much so, yeah.
But now other characters have safer moves as well, so if Sheik now has a very very hard/impossible move,
but other characters actually get hard/impossible to punish moves too that's probably overall a good thing for balancing.
 

EnderBolt

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
1
NNID
EnderBolt
Didn't random talking Bush confirm that there are changes to every character?
 

Horseketchup

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2015
Messages
74
This is literally the best single global mechanic change they could've made to the game. So many ppl have been asking for less safe shields, and they actually did it. This patch could possibly allow shieldstun to approach Melee levels, which imo was pretty much perfect.
 
Last edited:

GeneralLedge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
439
So did Sheik become even more impossible to punish now?
I'm going to hypothesize that, with significant changes to shield stun (and HP?), Sheik is going to have a harder time playing it cool. Or, rather, you don't need to be 'as' on-point with your spacing or safe moves as before, because Sheik can't punish you for it as easily.

If Sheik is S tier because the mechanics are tuned in her favor, this is a potentially brutal nerf to Sheik. I expect a tournament upset in the future.
 
Last edited:

LordWilliam1234

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Messages
410
Switch FC
7820-3654-7995
If you want the full numbers for Link Shaya Shaya :

Jab 1: Shieldstun increased from 1 frames to 4.

Jab 2: Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 4.

Jab 3: Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 5.

F-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

D-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 9.

U-tilt: Shieldstun increased from 4 frames to 8.

Dash Attack: Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 10 at the base, 6 frames to 11 at the tip.

F-smash 1: Shieldstun increased from 3 frames to 7 at the base, 6 frames to 11 at the tip.

F-smash 2: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

D-smash: Shieldstun on the front hit increased from 6 frames to 11. Shieldstun on the back hit increased from 5 frames to 9.

U-smash: Shieldstun on the first two hits increased from 2 frames to 5. Shieldstun on the final hit increased from 5 frames to 9.

N-air: Shieldstun on the strong hit increased from 5 frames to 9. Shieldstun on the weak hit increased from 3 frames to 6.

F-air: Shieldstun on the first hit increased from 4 frames to 7. Shieldstun on the second hit increased from 4 frames to 8.

B-air: Shieldstun on the first hit increased from 2 frames to 4. Shieldstun on the second hit increased from 2 frames to 5.

D-air: Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 10.

Z-air: Shieldstun on the first hit increased from 1 frame to 4. Shieldstun on the second hit increased from 2 frames to 6.

Spin Attack (Uncharged): Shieldstun increased, from 6 frames to 11.

Spin Attack (Full Charge): Shieldstun increased, from 9 frames to 15.

Shocking Spin (Uncharged): Opponent and self shieldlag is now 16 frames. Previously was 10 frames for the opponent and 15 frames for self (the overall increase is due to the damage buff). Shieldstun increased from 6 frames to 12.

Shocking Spin (Full Charge): Opponent and self shieldlag is now 22 frames. Previously was 13 frames for the opponent and 20 frames for self (the overall increase is due to the damage buff). Shieldstun increased from 9 frames to 17.

Link's projectiles did get shieldstun changes, but for some reason most of them also get hitlag changes too. And I'm pretty sure they didn't get any damage changes. And it doesn't seem like the shieldstun changes for the projectiles follow the same formula as his physical attacks.

Hero's Bow (Uncharged): Hitlag reduced from 6 frames to 5. Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 4.

Hero's Bow (Full Charge): Hitlag reduced from 9 frames to 7. Shieldstun increased from 5 frames to 6.

Power Bow (Uncharged): Hitlag increased from 5 frames to 7. Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 3.

Power Bow (Full Charge): Hitlag increased from 12 frames to 16. Shieldstun unchanged.

Quickfire Bow (Uncharged): Hitlag reduced from 5 frames to 4. Shieldstun increased from 1 frame to 3.

Quickfire Bow (Full Charge): Hitlag reduced from 7 frames to 6. Shieldstun increased from 3 to 5.

Gale Boomerang: Hitlag unchanged. Shieldstun increased from 3 frames to 5.

Boomerang: Hitlag unchanged. Shieldstun increased from 4 frames to 5. Hitlag on the returning hit unchanged. Shieldstun on the returning hit increased from 2 frames to 4.

Ripping Boomerang: Hitlag unchanged. Shieldstun increased from 2 frames to 4.

I'll get the numbers for Ryu next, hopefully that'll shed some light on the shieldlag changes.
 
Last edited:

GP2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
110
Okay I hope this doesn't count at spam but can I ask what the shield tweak to sheik, zelda, and dark pit means?
 
Last edited:

Nate1080

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
131
Location
New York
NNID
Nate1080
So does increased shield stun mean that, for example, Marth gets better? Making his moves much safer on shield and perhaps more combos?

Just curious.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
I do not know if you could before with Yoshi, but you cannot shield drop or act out of shield at all versus Lucario's Aura Sphere or Yoshi's down air. There might be other instances where this has some importance.
 

GeneralLedge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
439
I imagine any heavy hitting or rapid-fire moves will keep sheilds held up longer.

If "heavy hitting" is truly a part of it, all the heavy-weight characters just won the lottery.

EDIT: Forgot Aura Sphere hits rapidly when charging. Point still stands if stronger moves deal more shield stun, though.
 
Last edited:

GP2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
110
So does increased shield stun mean that, for example, Marth gets better? Making his moves much safer on shield and perhaps more combos?

Just curious.
I want to say yes. They essentially nerfed marth because the new shield mechanics made him too broken.
 

FlynnCL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
370
While most of the fighter changes were underwhelming, this more than makes up for it.

Aura Sphere charge on shield is absolutely hilarious.
 
Last edited:

Ambler

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
6
Increase sheildstun? interesting.
Can someone do some tests into shield health too? me and my brother both commented that Ness' PK Fire was doing a lot more shield damage than normal right after the update and according to the datamined stuff the damage remains the same, but I haven't seen anyone else talking about it.
 

Sinister Slush

❄ I miss my kind ❄
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
14,010
Location
The land that never Snows
NNID
SinisterSlush

GeneralLedge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
439
Just to clarify: Do these changes to shield stun affect perfect shielding? My hype from previous posts relies on PS'ing being brought down the scale.
 

HoodsxX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
89
Location
Canada, Ontario
NNID
NanhouDrops
3DS FC
3067-5933-7964
Someone should mention that you can't jump, roll, or drop shield against Lucario's Neutral B move anymore... Forced to SDI it insanely unless you want to be shield broken 100% of the time...
 

q_e_d

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
12
Location
Germany
So does increased shield stun mean that, for example, Marth gets better? Making his moves much safer on shield and perhaps more combos?

Just curious.
Basically, attacking a shield is now safer for every character.
Characters who benefit most from this change are those who have attacks that were possible but hard to punish before, those attacks should now be safe on some characters who could punish them before, and others can only get less significant punishes.
I don't know Marth well, but this could very well apply to him.
 

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
Extra shieldstun means campier meta. Have you seen Brawl Minus Luigi and what he did under 64 levels of shield stun? That was an extremely campy meta because nobody in the right mind wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

Increased Shield Stun is easily the worst thought out change that they could have possibly done for this game.
I think this is largely determinant on how much shieldstun they've actually added. We don't really have a number yet but if it's really slight than IDK, cause this game had less shieldstun than Brawl initially IIRC

I agree that too much shieldstun would wreck this game but I have to evaluate and measure how much has been actually added first.
 
Last edited:

Valamway

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
166
Location
Northeast Ohio
NNID
i38VWi
Extra shieldstun means campier meta. Have you seen Brawl Minus Luigi and what he did under 64 levels of shield stun? That was an extremely campy meta because nobody in the right mind wanted to approach and be forced to shield.

Increased Shield Stun is easily the worst thought out change that they could have possibly done for this game.
Making shields less powerful and making attacks safer means a campier, more defensive meta?
That's a new one.
 

Tenretsujin10

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
169
Hmm, I double checked this as well and you're certainly correct (5 instances = 40%). The mystery of what's now 1.5% I wonder?
Fox's lasers from down throw do 1.5% each (he shoots 4 lasers total), doing 7% total damage. Before the patch the total damage was 9%.
- The face percentage values I got doing down throw was 1 > 3 > 4 > 6 > 7
- I played the game at 1/4 Hold Speed and found that Fox shoots 4 lasers doing 1.5% each then the opponent takes 1% and gets knocked away.

His other throws remain untouched from what I see, and I see someone complaining about Fox's jabs being changed again on the Fox boards but I'm pretty sure that's just placebo or something
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom