Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[JamietheAuraUser]

That's what I'm thinking, ya. I mean, it's a 3 frame window, but we have a 10 frame buffer to input the jump, so I really doubt I miss-inputted it the 20 times I tried to DJ out of double Fair.

Would that make Marth retreating FAir tippers safer on shield? XD

 

[Darklink401]

If this is a thing, that's...

amazing?

Seems amazing.

 

[Pyr]

Maybe. Anyone who wants to test the Luigi thing to confirm, Ganon at 20ish% leads to a D-Throw that should combo into Fair x2. Even buffering I couldn't get the DJ, but it still auto-canceled. Doing it and hitting nothing allows for the DJ.

 

[Darklink401]

.....

C-stick aerials set to smash no longer take away momentum.....

omg.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

.....

C-stick aerials set to smash no longer take away momentum.....

omg.

Holy crap wut.

Hell yes.

Thank you Sakurai!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

.....

C-stick aerials set to smash no longer take away momentum.....

omg.

Oh wow this is a huge change.

 

[Firefoxx]

Maybe. Anyone who wants to test the Luigi thing to confirm, Ganon at 20ish% leads to a D-Throw that should combo into Fair x2. Even buffering I couldn't get the DJ, but it still auto-canceled. Doing it and hitting nothing allows for the DJ.

Yeah even on the 3ds im getting the double jump easy on 1.1.0. So i really do think this is a thing

 

[Darklink401]

I'm guessing Sakurai tweaked with momentum, and now aerials have less momentum decrease when you hit your opponent with them

X_X

 

[Runic_SSB]

.....

C-stick aerials set to smash no longer take away momentum.....

omg.

Did people just give up on hoping that would change and stopped testing it?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm guessing Sakurai tweaked with momentum, and now aerials have less momentum decrease when you hit your opponent with them

X_X

So maybe that "Mario 1.1.1 patch combo video" I saw on Youtube does have some merit in existing.

Edit: That wouldn't explain the thing with Luigi though, unless you keep moving during hitlag now. It would make absolutely every aerial ever safer on shield with proper spacing, though.

 

[LancerStaff]

.....

C-stick aerials set to smash no longer take away momentum.....

omg.

Nope. You still need to not hold the C-stick for too long for it to work. If you hold the C-stick you're stuck.

 

[Darklink401]

So maybe that "Mario 1.1.1 patch combo video" I saw on Youtube does have some merit in existing.

Edit: That wouldn't explain the thing with Luigi though, unless you keep moving during hitlag now.

What it means is, aerials decreased your momentum when you hit someone before, now they don't.
Meaning, Luigi would fall slower before, and thus be able to double jump before reaching the ground.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Nope. You still need to not hold the C-stick for too long for it to work. If you hold the C-stick you're stuck.

Aww… *sadface*

What it means is, aerials decreased your momentum when you hit someone before, now they don't.
Meaning, Luigi would fall slower before, and thus be able to double jump before reaching the ground.

That doesn't explain it though, since short hop > FAir > FAir > double jump still works provided Luigi doesn't hit anything, but if he does hit then the double jump doesn't work.

 

[MetaKnight956]

And no Sheik, Pickachu, or ZSS nerfs. Sakurai plz

 

[Darklink401]

I'm jumping backwards and tapping c-stick the opposite direction as Sonic, and my aerial momentum seems fine.

Was it like that before?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm jumping backwards and tapping c-stick the opposite direction as Sonic, and my aerial momentum seems fine.

Was it like that before?

I think it worked provided you tapped for a short enough time, but if you held too long then the C-Stick input would override control stick movement.

Edit: Also, see edit to my previous post.

 

[Darklink401]

Aww… *sadface*


That doesn't explain it though, since short hop > FAir > FAir > double jump still works provided Luigi doesn't hit anything, but if he does hit then the double jump doesn't work.

That's cuz the fairs are making you fall faster now.

Or rather, fall less slowly.

At least, that's my guess.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

That's cuz the fairs are making you fall faster now.

Or rather, fall less slowly.

At least, that's my guess.

Wouldn't that only work if you're either moving during hitlag, or if gravity is still increasing your fall speed even during hitlag frames?

 

[Pyr]

That's cuz the fairs are making you fall faster now.

Or rather, fall less slowly.

At least, that's my guess.

Or, in the case of sonic, rise more quickly, allowing for you to initiate up-B at a greater height, in turn allowing you to hit the second up-air sooner.

Wonder what else this changes. Anything that was a few frames off from working as a true combo might now be true, or were a few frames from not working may no longer work.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Changed the shieldstun values in my frame data sheet. Took one off for all of them to be consistent with how others have been counting the shieldstun frames (no longer counting the frames of shieldlag as one frame of shieldstun). Doesn't affect my numbers for shield advantage.

Also finished with Marth's numbers (@Vipermoon64). I believe it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but he's just as safe on his sourspots as he was before, but his tippers are now MORE safe than his sourspots. Usually only by a frame, but still.

I'll be going through Falco next.

Also I don't think that hitstun was changed. The combos with my characters don't feel any different (e.g. Link d-throw follow-ups, which weren't true combos and still aren't, Lucario u-throw to f-air strings, etc), so if there was a change it's probably related to momentum somehow as was mentioned.

 

[Darklink401]

Wouldn't that only work if you're either moving during hitlag, or if gravity is still increasing your fall speed even during hitlag frames?

Think of it in the sense that, aerials are now sharper, and go through opponents easier. This means, going up, you'll go more up, going down, you'll go more down.

Only way to explain the luigi thing xD

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Think of it in the sense that, aerials are now sharper, and go through opponents easier. This means, going up, you'll go more up, going down, you'll go more down.

Only way to explain the luigi thing xD

Movement continuing during hitlag would definitely explain both the Sonic UAir combo and the Luigi FAir thing though. Sonic would gain more height from UAir, allowing him to start Spring Jump at a greater height, and Luigi would effectively fall "faster" due to having frames where he's still falling but is otherwise frozen.

 

[Darklink401]

If movement continues during hitlag now, that'll be interesting....xD

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

If movement continues during hitlag now, that'll be interesting....xD

I mean, the only other thing that makes sense is that aerials magnify momentum on hit, which seems silly in and of itself.

 

[Bribery]

Changed the shieldstun values in my frame data sheet. Took one off for all of them to be consistent with how others have been counting the shieldstun frames (no longer counting the frames of shieldlag as one frame of shieldstun). Doesn't affect my numbers for shield advantage.

Also finished with Marth's numbers. I believe it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but he's just as safe on his sourspots as he was before, but his tippers are now MORE safe than his sourspots. Usually only by a frame, but still.

I thought the hitlag changes made it so that his sourspots were less safe than before since they have 0.7x multipliers. Is that not the case?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I thought the hitlag changes made it so that his sourspots were less safe than before since they have 0.7x multipliers. Is that not the case?

Probably works out to a wash between that and the increased shieldstun.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I thought the hitlag changes made it so that his sourspots were less safe than before since they have 0.7x multipliers. Is that not the case?

That would be true if the shieldstun didn't increase as well. The equalization in the hitlag between Marth and his opponent on the sourspot hits is cancelled out by the increase in shieldstun.

Probably works out to a wash between that and the increased shieldstun.

Beat me to it.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

The last hit of Explosive Flame for Palutena no longer is unblockable.

 

[Jams.]

Apparently Luma does LESS shield stun than she did before the patch.

And since everyone else does more shield stun, Rosa may have just gotten a huge nerf.

I feel like this post just got passed over. X_x

Did you confirm these changes personally? It kind of goes against everything else being said. If this is true, the only reason I can think of for this is the opponent receiving the same shieldlag as Rosalina when Luma hits their shield. Since Rosalina doesn't experience shieldlag when only Luma's attack connects, this leads to the opponent also experiencing no shieldlag, counteracting the universal shieldstun increase. This theory is pretty out there though, and this change makes little sense in the context of everything else we know.

On second thought, did Luma ever experience shieldlag? If it didn't, that explains this change pretty easily.

 

[Eureka]

So can't we test if movement continues during hitlag by going into training with 1/4 speed and smacking the CPU with a high-hitlag aerial? If the character keeps moving then it should be obvious to see.

 

[TurboLink]

Why is hitlag important?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Also, you said non-custom moves were checked for endlag/landing lag changes? What about customs moves and Mii Fighters? In particular, I'm wondering if they've done anything about the Mii Swordfighter's Chakram Infinite, since as much as I like the character being able to actually combo out of Chakram that infinite really needs to go.

You asked about Peach's custom neutral Bs. They also have reduced total frames. But we didn't look at counter activation to know if that is also reduced. Mii and Palutena customs were checked when I went through the characters, and there are no changes related to endlag. The reason I didn't think every custom move should be checked is because customs have received extremely little attention in updates before this one. If any special were changed, I would check its customs to see if the change applied to those as well (they usually do).

 

[Darklink401]

So I tested, from the edge, sh dairing as Luigi, on Bowser. Then just sh dair

With SH dair on bowser, Luigi landed further than just SH dair normally


WTF

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

You asked about Peach's custom neutral Bs. They also have reduced total frames. But we didn't look at counter activation to know if that is also reduced. Mii and Palutena customs were checked when I went through the characters, and there are no changes related to endlag. The reason I didn't think every custom move should be checked is because customs have received extremely little attention in updates before this one. If any special were changed, I would check its customs to see if the change applied to those as well (they usually do).

Fair enough. So any Mii Swordfighter changes that were appearing in Dantarion's data dump were most likely from a previous patch.

 

[Big O]

Big O did I just misunderstand this somehow? The last few pages of the 1.1.0 thread were all talking about how much safer certain moves with hitlag modifers were on block.

Ya you probably mixed up something when you read it. It was saying that high hitlag moves became safer than they used to be, but not safer than 1.0x hitlag by dividing their self-shieldhitlag by 1.25 (with a minimum of 1.0, so 1.1x hitlag doesn't become safer than normal).

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So I tested, from the edge, sh dairing as Luigi, on Bowser. Then just sh dair

With SH dair on bowser, Luigi landed further than just SH dair normally


WTF

So yeah, either movement continues during hitlag or aerials amplify momentum on hit. Is it just a Luigi thing or is it universal? Mii Brawler UAir strings for life? How does it interact with multi-hit aerials? Is Mii Gunner's UAir now hilariously bonkers?

 

[Darklink401]

So yeah, either movement continues during hitlag or aerials amplify momentum on hit. Is it just a Luigi thing or is it universal? Mii Brawler UAir strings for life? How does it interact with multi-hit aerials? Is Mii Gunner's UAir now hilariously bonkers?

It'd appear to be universal, if Sonic's upair up B upair is now a combo...

Also 2 Falcon mains I know have been telling me upair upair knee is a lot easier now....

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It'd appear to be universal, if Sonic's upair up B upair is now a combo...

Also 2 Falcon mains I know have been telling me upair upair knee is a lot easier now....

If aerial momentum is amplified on hit, are we going full Kingdom Hearts mode in here?

Anyway, that's an amazing change that will likely make aerial strings feel a heck of a lot more fluid and dynamic.

 

[PhlipDarkRiot]

So if this momentum oddity is true, couldn't it affect auto-cancel or landing lag timings? Maybe you're rising long enough to short hop with aerials you weren't able to before. Or potentially landing during hitlag to improve advantage frames?

 

[Dogmaster]

So can't we test if movement continues during hitlag by going into training with 1/4 speed and smacking the CPU with a high-hitlag aerial? If the character keeps moving then it should be obvious to see.

Yup, something li knee should be noticeable enough