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Manual Tripping and Techjumping

D

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What do you guys think of these ideas?
Techjumping would be a lot like a wall-tech jump, except it's on the ground, you press a shield button, quickly press the jump button, and you tech and jump(with invincibility frames) about the height of a short hop.

Manual Tripping is exactly what you think: Pressing a button (or a combination of buttons) while running, and tripping, I think it would add options and would not hinder the game in any way.
(BEES' idea)

Critique? more ideas? (Brawl+ related of course)
 

ph00tbag

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I don't think it could be easily implemented in Brawl+. I have considered the possibility of some increased teching options in the context of what I think would be neat in the next Smash game. Techjumping sounds like a neat idea.
 

Swordplay

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Give me a situation where you would want to manually trip yourself....I can probably come up with two things you could do that are more effective

Wall tech jumping takes away from the uniqueness of characters who can wall jump.
 

Swordplay

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o huh. that would be cool. I interpreted wrong. Like being able to wall tech jump without being in a tech situation.
 

GHNeko

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What do you guys think of these ideas?
Techjumping would be a lot like a wall-tech jump, you press a shield button, quickly press the jump button, and you tech and jump(with invincibility frames) about the height of a short hop.

Manual Tripping is exactly what you think: Pressing a button (or a combination of buttons) while running, and tripping, I think it would add options and would not hinder the game in any way.
(BEES' idea)

Critique? more ideas? (Brawl+ related of course)

Tech jumping is cool. And it would be an original idea to use. How it would be implemented though is an issue.

Manual Tripping? It seems like the cousin's son of Wavedashing to me, as it becomes a spacing and mindgaming tool that, yes, complicates the game more. That, and not all trips are created equal, meaning there would be more things to modify and more stigmata for B+. The concept has been brought up, and I wont say it isnt interesting at the least, but it holds no ground/place in B+.
 

Rikana

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I like the tech-jump idea. It's original. Adds another level to techs.
 

Adetque

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Manual tripping would be great for machinimas.

And tech-jumping sounds really helpful for people with good aerials.
 

leafgreen386

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Swordplay, I think you still don't completely understand. The techjumping is supposed to be used in any other teching situation on the ground. You would have your options to do a standing tech or techroll, and then you would also have the option of a jumptech.

Oh, and afaik, all characters can walltechjump already. You just don't ever see it because walltechs in this game are so rare right now.

As for manual tripping... lol
 

V-K

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Techjumping would be cool. It should work when you push up the control stick while teching.

But manual tripping is useless imo. I would never ever use it.
 
D

Deleted member

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Manual tripping would allow you to approach with your get up attack, and maybe dodge some projectiles, not to mention the mindgames. Everyone having different trip length would be a plus, It would add more variety to the game, did everyone in Melee have the same length wavedash?
 
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I really see techjumping being broken. It'd make techable throws useless. Your opponent would just tech off the ground, jump up and hit you in the face with an aerial of their choosing.

It'd be tech chase genocide. >_>


Manual Tripping sounds more like a "for the lulz" type of thing, but it would be pretty funny. xD
 

*P*L*U*R*

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I really see techjumping being broken. It'd make techable throws useless. Your opponent would just tech off the ground, jump up and hit you in the face with an aerial of their choosing.
Took the words RIGHT out of my mouth. Brawl already has so many defensive options why add essentially a COUNTER when powersheilding's already enough of a counter to begin with?


I say nay to tech-jumping, as awesome as it would be.
 

GHNeko

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Took the words RIGHT out of my mouth. Brawl already has so many defensive options why add essentially a COUNTER when powersheilding's already enough of a counter to begin with?


I say nay to tech-jumping, as awesome as it would be.

Then give tech-jumping only start up frames. Not alot. And make the tech jump the same height of a short hop, or even less. High enough to do their quickest aerial or something else.

Yes. The concept SEEMS broken but considering we could MODIFY it to our WILL. Saying that it becomes broken is a moot arguement because variables could be changed to un-break it.

10mkdsmash
102framepowershieldwindow
10nostalemovestoprevent0-100lowknockbackjuggles


You see my point?
 

Seikishidan Soru

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Then I'll have to repeat myself : if that's all there is to it, then just call it something else.
 

GHNeko

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Then I'll have to repeat myself : if that's all there is to it, then just call it something else.

Tripping Animation = Tripping.

In reality, Tripping in Brawl is actually called Prat Falling. But we call it tripping. Want to know why?


Because...we're tripping...that's why its called...tripping...


We could call it, "User Inputed Prat Fallification" but if it looks like tripping, acts like tripping, sounds like tripping. Its tripping.



I said it once, I'll say it again. If people even seen/hear/experience anything resembling tripping it will be a turnoff, no matter what depth it adds.
10nomanualtripping
 

Seikishidan Soru

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I'm not advocating for manual tripping either. All I'm saying is, it's easy to fool idiots if you have to.
 

BEES

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There would have to be lag frames from the tech jump. Pretty much you would be a sitting duck, but you might dodge an enemy's attack if they think you'll do a regular tech roll. If they anticipate it they can punish.

Extra defensive options can always be compensated with more hitstun if things get too defensive.
 

storm92

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Guys I don't really think we have to worry about the metagame becoming too defensive.

Manual tripping makes me laugh, but it sounds awesome. I would love to play with that.
Also, as Neko said, we make techjumping...unbroken. We're essentially making this new tech, so we can do whatever we want with it.
 

Swordplay

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Swordplay, I think you still don't completely understand. The techjumping is supposed to be used in any other teching situation on the ground. You would have your options to do a standing tech or techroll, and then you would also have the option of a jumptech.

Oh, and afaik, all characters can walltechjump already. You just don't ever see it because walltechs in this game are so rare right now.

As for manual tripping... lol

LOL you just confused me even more so I can safely say your right I still don't understand, that's why I'm going to leave this thread and go out saying "no comment
 

Metà

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This reminds me of when people played Brawl for the first time at E-for-all and thought tripping was caused by some button input. For a short amount of time, people called it 'Ink dropping' (named after Inks who apparently was the first to do it), until they realized it was random and it contributed nothing beneficial to the overall meta-game.

If someone ever does create a hack for this (which is pretty dumb IMO), they should call it by its original name. XD
 

GHNeko

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There would have to be lag frames from the tech jump. Pretty much you would be a sitting duck, but you might dodge an enemy's attack if they think you'll do a regular tech roll. If they anticipate it they can punish.

Extra defensive options can always be compensated with more hitstun if things get too defensive.
Well, essentially, we could shape it to be an offensive technique.

Why?

You have teching which gives you invincibility frames while you get up and prevents things like jab locks and Off The Ground Combos (Sorry. I play TvC so excuse the 2D Fighter Terms).

Tech Rolling prevents people from abusing normal techs as they can just wait while you tech and shield grab or do something. Pretty much bait you. You have more options. You can choose to roll past them or towards them to possibly catch them off guard or keep you from being tossed/hit of the ledge, or you can roll away and give yourself some breathing room.

What techjumping would do, in my eyes, is give you a demon child of techrolling and get up attacks in a sense.

Having less inviciframes than teching and techrolling, but the option of moving away or foward while you jump, while being in air. This gives alot of characters a whole new plethora of options to go on as well as mindgames as its easier to keep the opponent guessing.

It'd be the height of a Short Hop, and you could attack on the way down, with inviciframes on the way up, but they would end before the apex of the jump. You could also use a Double Jump instead of attack, or you could airdodge and land on the ground to do something else, or simply just do an Empty Techjump to mind game your opponent. Maybe you could move during the jump as well.

If you wanted to spice it up, lets give it a form of momentum and anime that **** up. If your getting hit to the left, and you tech jump, you jump moving to the left, but at a reduced speed. Maybe 40% of the speed you were launched at. Who knows.

I do believe that it'd have to have the least amount of inviciframes simply as a trade off for all the possibilties that it could give you. Hell, it'd be almost risky.

The concept would keep opponents from being to aggressive, but wouldn't take away from offense as the opponent still can react in a similar fashion to all techs. Waiting it out or prediction based on the play style of the player. If you tech jump to much, he could easily just jump and attack to counter the techjump as some characters are worse than others in air, and the opponent could take advantage of that by starting an aerial combo.

He could wait at the tech jump spot and shield an attack, or rar into a back aerial, or take advantage of a disjointed hitbox from below ie marth utilt on a tech jumping falcon.

There are so many possibilties with something like this and would support it whole heartily because, on paper, it adds so much depth, gives defense another option, promotes more smart play, and doesnt take away from offense, and if it does, barely, and its not even a difficult thing to do or concept to grasp.
 

goodoldganon

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I agree with everything Neko said, but I do feel we really need to keep the Smash crowd at heart. I agree with all your benefits, but would outsiders looking in see the benefits and try and learn it? Or would they shun it and what not. Either way, it sounds way too complicated. It would sure as hell be fun, but I'd imagine it would be line intensive.
 

GHNeko

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I agree with everything Neko said, but I do feel we really need to keep the Smash crowd at heart. I agree with all your benefits, but would outsiders looking in see the benefits and try and learn it? Or would they shun it and what not. Either way, it sounds way too complicated. It would sure as hell be fun, but I'd imagine it would be line intensive.

Of course. That's all understandable. Honestly, if you're talking about new blood, the idea might be foreign, but the wonderful thing about techjumping is that its an option. Unlike Wavedashing, L-Canceling, Added Hitstun, etc. Techjumping would be an option that would not be required to be used. You would only benefit from using it, but lose nothing from not using it because you still had 3 other ways to tech so you could still manage a form of mindgame/variety/strategy/unpredictablity. Its not forced, its not a mandatory game mechanic. It would be balanced after some testing, and it would easily flow with the game while adding a new level to on stage recovery tactics.

In essence, a tech is a tech. If you get hit, you want to tech to help your own self out. It's not so foriegn as to put of players because the concept and the basis still are the same and unchange. Essentially, you're just teching in a new direction. That's what it is when you boil down to it. Its a tech in a new direction.

As for it sounding to complicated, as I just stated, at the root of techjumping, it's a tech in a new direction. Its another option that isnt required to win. If implimented, it would only be in your favor to take advantage, but if you win without it, good for you, eat a metaphorical cookie.

It sounds broken and looks complicated on paper, but the only way to know for sure is through testing.

Ultimately, because we'd be essentially extending something that already exists, rather than adding something completely new. And with a nice coat of balance of techjumping, it'd easily fall at home with plenty of users, both new and vets. So I doubt they'd shun it. It's like adding an extention to your home.

If you want to find out what the smashers ultimately think though, you could survey, but you'd have to choose your words properly because at first impression, it does sound broken, (though that would lead to overuse and predictability, and ultimately punishment.)

I know that i'd easily fall in favor of mainers/users of characters that have superior air game to their ground game ie Jiggypuff/Wario.

This is all going off assumptions based on reactions to Brawl+ though. Most People who played Brawl+ for a good setting and got accustomed to the changes essentially fell in love with B+ or simply enjoyed the game. Very few shunned it or think it went to far. Basing off this, I'd believe techjumping would be a welcome addition to anyone picking up Brawl+.

It'd also weaken the arguement of B+ buffing offense too much and nerfing defense. It cant really hurt the arguement of those who say B+ is balanced because techjumping is an option and not forced, and offense has ways to deal with it as well, that and it could be balanced to the point where it cant be used in that arugement. If someone argues it buffs defense too much, they should relook at B+ because defense has been taken down a considerable amount so that offense and defense are much closer together in terms of ratio balance. That and like the other forms of teching, can be dealt with via some form of tech chasing que Ganon Sid B, Snake Dthrow (LOL Throw.), and the good old shield and wait then shield grab.
 

vbdood1337

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If you could set a button for tripping, that would be ****ing hilarious. Take a friend's nametag and change their jump button to trip lolol. Every time they jump they would trip instead.
 

MK26

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The only way techjumping would be viable would be if it has:
a) a small amount of invincibility frames (enough to cover your initial acceleration, but only to about 1/3 of the total height of the jump)
b) a large amount of vulnerable frames in which you can air control but not perform any actions (at least to the apex for slow-fallers, and past the apex for fastfallers because they cover the distance in a shorter amount of time)
c) either limited directional control with the initial jump straight up OR no directional control with the initial jump based on the character's momentum when hit (i.e. get hit to the left and techjump to the left, with the angle based on how fast you're moving when you techjump)

The second option of c makes more sense, but the first is a more defense-benefitting idea

d) All characters have the ability to pull out at least one aerial without having to jump; it adds to the prediction element if a character has a fast bair but a slow fair or nair (or vice versa), which means he's protected from an attack from the back but vulnerable in the front

Just my two cents.
 

GHNeko

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The only way techjumping would be viable would be if it has:
a) a small amount of invincibility frames (enough to cover your initial acceleration, but only to about 1/3 of the total height of the jump)
b) a large amount of vulnerable frames in which you can air control but not perform any actions (at least to the apex for slow-fallers, and past the apex for fastfallers because they cover the distance in a shorter amount of time)
c) either limited directional control with the initial jump straight up OR no directional control with the initial jump based on the character's momentum when hit (i.e. get hit to the left and techjump to the left, with the angle based on how fast you're moving when you techjump)

The second option of c makes more sense, but the first is a more defense-benefitting idea

d) All characters have the ability to pull out at least one aerial without having to jump; it adds to the prediction element if a character has a fast bair but a slow fair or nair (or vice versa), which means he's protected from an attack from the back but vulnerable in the front

Just my two cents.
A) I already covered that. I said the inviciframes should be the least out of all techs, and should end before the apex of the jump.

B) The vun frames would start after the incivi frames, simple as that.

C) I mentioned that tooo.

D) Talked about eet. :3

really, What I'd see as ideal is characters being able to move left, right, DJ while choosing to use an aerial or not, but the invic frames would be short enough so that techjumping couldnt be abused and techjumping would influcements mindgames rather than just attacking from it.
 

A-Tron

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manual tripping would be sweet, snake trips with nades in hand = more brokenness, and plus ifyou dont think its a good idea then you dont have to make yourself trip then do you?
 

GHNeko

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I don't know about you, but I like the idea of manual tripping. It's balanced as it is. Free roll/get-up attack + a bit range, at the cost of leaving yourself open.

But implemented in current B+ play? No.
 

Alfa

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I would hack my wii just to get Manual Tripping. Just imagine the
meta
mindgame potential in it. Now I will no longer need to tripdance just to abuse the act of tripping. This idea is full of WIN! (Although I do think it would be pretty useless in Brawl+, maybe Brawl- instead).
 

Dark Sonic

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So umm....what would the tech jumping animation look like (we'd have to make an animation you know)? I was thinking it could be a sped up, yet very short, version of the character's roll animation (in the direction that they hit the ground, so they'd do a left roll if they were moving left when they hit the ground) followed by a sped up jump animation with a little of the horizontal momentum from the attack carrying over (a very small amount).

What do you guys think?
 
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