Making your training partner feel better about himself

[Vixen]

Or herself*

In this thread I would really love some ideas on how to make the people I play with feel less upset about things, and in general have a better time.

I feel bad when I'm laughing and having a great time and my primary training partner is having a difficult time just keeping up motivation to play each game. Every character I play except for captain falcon he has something that bothers him in some way, shape or form, and he hates it when i sandbag, so I'm not sure what to do. I also try positive reinforcement, but usually he just ends up sinking in to his own world with headphones.

 

[Gea]

Less just playing matches, more practicing stuff that takes another person.

 

[EthereaL]

If they are serious about getting better, then they need to accept that they are currently not the best. They also need to accept that, whatever (viable) character you use, each will have certain qualities that you can (ab)use.

Anyway, foremost: when your partner complains about a tactic you are using, do not stop. This may seem like a "jerk" thing to do, but, otherwise, how else will he learn how to prevent it? Now, this does not mean that you don't say anything and continually **** him. However, tell him how to counter it.

Secondly, after each stock (for yourself, and for him) pause the game, and consider what it is you / he did wrong. Talk about it amongst one another, tell each other what pattern you noticed and exploited. If the answer is, "I just sort of you know randomly down-smashed", then move on and go on to the next stock. Above all, seek to improve together.


If you're playing someone who isn't interested in improving himself, then find a new training partner.


Edit:

Never sandbag. That will only hurt your consistency in a tournament setting. Always try your best, and give it your all.

Also, don't listen to music while you play. You react to auditory stimuli a considerable amount of time faster than visual, and practicing with loud music will harm you in a tournament setting should you attempt to change. Songs before a match or after to "hype" you up or "chill" you out are good, but during the match your entire focus should be on the game at hand.

 

[Gea]

Really? Oftentimes you can't hear the TV at all during a tournament.

 

[EthereaL]

Really? Oftentimes you can't hear the TV at all during a tournament.

You aren't focusing hard enough, or else you have bad hearing (probably from your headphone usage while practicing ).

Think of listening to a largely crowded room. One can often catch snatches of conversation out of the overall roar. Or, in an orchestra, one can often pick out individual instruments from the total sound.

 

[Gea]

I don't wear headphones at anything. I am, however, not deaf and know people bring in all sorts of jank-*** TVs, many of which do not have functional volume that can compete with the surrounding noise or venue. Other venues are just so loud that relying on audio clues is gimping yourself.

Ideally this is not the case, but in practice it can very well be.

 

[EthereaL]

I don't wear headphones at anything. I am, however, not deaf and know people bring in all sorts of jank-*** TVs, many of which do not have functional volume that can compete with the surrounding noise or venue. Other venues are just so loud that relying on audio clues is gimping yourself.

Ideally this is not the case, but in practice it can very well be.

I believe that some televisions are bad, but not that the venue noise can completely remove the auditory clues. That said, neither am I saying to totally rely on them. Rather, they are an additional tool to use; why handicap yourself in any way?

 

[The Star King]

You can't please dem negative nellies tbh

don't like people like that

 

[Gea]

I can agree with that somewhat, but many people use headphones as a means to drown out the venue and concentrate on visual clues. And you apparently haven't been to many bar venues or clubs or anywhere that already has ambiance made to drown out other noise.

I was mostly surprised that you put forth the idea that headphones have no place during your match at a tournament when I've been to enough tournaments where it would have made zero difference due to not ideal situations.

 

[EthereaL]

I can agree with that somewhat, but many people use headphones as a means to drown out the venue and concentrate on visual clues. And you apparently haven't been to many bar venues or clubs or anywhere that already has ambiance made to drown out other noise.

Yes, but if you concentrate on the "other noise", you can still listen to it. Ambiance simply gives you something else to listen to when your focus strays from your own conversations rather than listening to the murmur of other people.

I'm not saying that it's a game-changing or player-improving decision, but rather nitpicking over the tiny optimizations a player can do. If a player can start out initially improving while working on these tiny optimizations, why would they not?

I was mostly surprised that you put forth the idea that headphones have no place during your match at a tournament when I've been to enough tournaments where it would have made zero difference due to not ideal situations.

I don't even know what this means.

 

[Vixen]

some good advice post so far. good stuff to use for the future!

to go a little more in-depth, my training partner has this like, personal vendetta vs falco (even tho he'll **** up pretty much any falco that isn't just straight up a lot better than him)

since i main falco, it's kinda unpleasant. for example, i'm part of the nairspamming crowd. i laser and nair in predictable, but generally inescapable ways unless he like positions himself super preemtively to **** me for it but unless im on hardcore autopilot im usually more than capable of adjusting my timing and spacing to beat that lol.

he gets flustered easily just by like, doing generic falco stuff. especially if im playing particularly well and start 3-4 stocking him. he definitely learns when he's playing despite the constant complaints and rage but i want to find some way of making his experience more enjoyable. him being a negative nancy has a tendency to ruin my experience.

 

[EthereaL]

If he doesn't enjoy it because he loses, then getting better at the game is the best way. Also, no approach is inescapable, especially if you yourself are calling it predictable.

 

[Tarv]

This is coming from someone who loses to his training partner literally every single time, so it'll hopefully give you a perspective from the other end of the playing field:

- Point out where he's improving and when he does a good combo/ does something cool.
- More often than that, point out where he needs to improve. Give as many tips as you can
- Always try your hardest. I get slightly offended when people half-*** it against me. I'd rather get 4 stocked and feel like the other person was giving it 100% than to beat someone and then realize they were on auto-pilot.
- Tell him not to give up and when he's feeling like quitting and try to convince him not to.
- Work on specifics with him, don't just keep beating on him in matches. The other day my friend helped me DIing Jiggs upthrow when I was playing with fox and we spent like 20 stocks working on just that. After that I felt a little bit better about my ability in that particular area.
- Have fun

Hope this helps.

 

[Twinkles]

Does your training partner play with other people? It'd be cool to get him to play with people around his skill level so he can see results from training with you, then he'd probably be more eager to play and get thrashed a bit so he can get the jump on others.

 

[Tarv]

Edit: I just realized that you were probably talking to Mizuki, and not me. So now I feel dumb... Mods feel free to delete this post.

 

[V3ctorMan]

About time you've learned the understanding of this Mizuki, I've only been trying to teach you it for years now.. Glad you understand now, this concept... Hope everyone has insightful/more useful advice then I gave years ago...

EDIT: then again, when I was giving this advice. Mizuki, was the victim, not the advisor...

Ahhh evolution. My AZ Children have all grown, and are surpassing me so quickly.. *sniff* they grow up so fast.. ;_;

 

[Vixen]

Does your training partner play with other people? It'd be cool to get him to play with people around his skill level so he can see results from training with you, then he'd probably be more eager to play and get thrashed a bit so he can get the jump on others.

haha when he does play people that arent me okamibw or jetfour he usually does really really well.

almost made it out of pools at koc.

said person is oksas, if you didnt know.

love ya tim lol. im still mediocre even tho jeff would say otherwise

 

[Twinkles]

oh **** i played him at koc. we went close in falcon dittos. haha, good times. tell him that i thought he was pretty good and he should play so we can have even more epic dittos next time we meet at a tourney.

apart from that, i don't have any advice on how to get you to motivate him, but i have some advice that could help him motivate himself. best thing i can think of is that he's got to hold on to the really good moments he has with his falcon. in friendlies, he's gotta try to have as much fun as possible while trying to up his skill level, go for flashy combos that he'd look back on and go, "man, that was ****ing awesome." whenever i think of stuff like that, i remember that i have a lot of fun with this game and i just keep playing, even though i know there are so many players out there better than me.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Also, don't listen to music while you play. You react to auditory stimuli a considerable amount of time faster than visual, and practicing with loud music will harm you in a tournament setting should you attempt to change. Songs before a match or after to "hype" you up or "chill" you out are good, but during the match your entire focus should be on the game at hand.

This is terrible advice.

You can have Piccolo hearing and you can't hear **** a lot of the time. Do you really think Mango or Armada could hear their TV at Genesis? Or APEX? Or anywhere else? Its impossible.

Plus, there are a thousand other setups making similar sound effects. Paying attention to sound will actively **** you up. Relying on auditory stimuli is an awful habit.

 

[Gea]

I don't even know what this means.

Because apparently you only attend tournaments in libraries.

 

[kd-]

Stomped repeatedly by your training partner/peers, story of my life.

In my opinion, there really isn't anything you can do, especially with certain people and certain mindsets. It's definitely a frustrating experience for both people. You get testimonies like, "It's so frustrating, it's mind numbing playing you, I just can't think against you" and "I don't know how to even open against you, but you open on me 50 million different ways." If you sandbag, you hear "Wow you can beat me when you sand bag, cool!" or "I can't even beat your alts" and if you don't sand bag you hear, "You're not even trying, come on" or "Your alts don't matter, it's not like you use them". If you give them advice, they say "You can just beat it with X, like you always do" or "I don't see it/I can't do it yet"

The game becomes this constant push-or-pull/tug-of-war to get them to play with you, or to help them remain/become a happy/happier person, and it's kind of impossible.

Truth be told, it's up to your training partner's mindset to stay positive. The training partner has to stand up and stop cycling into a defeatist "You can just beat me with X" attitude, and reflect more on what they can do in different situations. It's on the training partner to go into the game with an open mind and change the way they see or don't see openings. The training partner has to say "Okay, against X I can Y, Z, or W in certain situations. I don't think Y is that good, I'm good at W but it only works against this rare mixup, and I'm bad with Z so maybe I should practice Z" or "I have Y, Z and W options, but I don't like that. Maybe I should switch characters because I like their options."

That being said, there are some encouraging things to do, as friends - and note, some, if not all of these, are personal testimonies from the bodied training partner:

-Get them to go to tournaments, and when they're playing, cheer for them. "OHHHHHHHH" for every big hit. Yell out only positive things, like "Lets go X!". Only say things like "Don't worry about it" if, you know, they actually won't worry about it. If he/she wins, be genuinely happy. If he/she loses, don't get down on their mistakes, let them talk to YOU about what HE/SHE felt about the match and THEN give them advice.
-Encourage them to play and go to smashfests. "C'mon, get your controller and play me!" It's really nice to have a lot of people at a smashfest or even at a tourney come up to you and say, "Yo what's up lets play some friendlies!" If you see someone in your pool who you think is on their level, tell them to play your training partner. They'll even establish a closer bond to that person/region
-Talk to them about cool smash things outside of their game. Spark interest in the game. "Did you see Ken win the crew battle at Kings of Cali for SoCal? You gotta see it!" "This commentary by Papi DAV3 is hilarious!"
-If he/she is in a good enough mood, talk to them about their game. "That combo was cool" "How'd you do against x player? Did you get destroyed? You took a game off of him? That's really good!" "What are your thoughts about x matchup? You think it's 50-50?"
-This one really depends on the scenario of who your training partner is: Play dittos against him, or play someone else (on a rotation) with his/her character. Tell him/her the point of this is that if you see something you like - a combo, an option, movement - your training partner can take it and add it to his/her own repertoire.

In doing these things, hopefully your partner can realize that no matter how crappy they think they are at this game, or how stupid/pointless it is to play, at the very least, you established a good relationship with someone over the game and that having nice friends is a real cool thing to have. And that because of it and their own interest to the game, continuing to play and try to improve may still yet be worth it, to friends and themselves.

 

[Vixen]

crimson, you are also able to listen to other stimuli like the sound of their controller, or even your opponents reactions to things. I make some of my decisions based off what I hear when they are in certain situations.

 

[Violence]

Crimson, I have not ever been in a single situation where I couldn't tell whether or not I'd used my double jump due to not hearing the sound. Auditory stimuli is quite useful.

 

[finalcloud13]

Just act like you're getting mad whenever he kills you. It'll make him happy.

 

[EthereaL]

This is terrible advice.

You can have Piccolo hearing and you can't hear **** a lot of the time. Do you really think Mango or Armada could hear their TV at Genesis? Or APEX? Or anywhere else? Its impossible.

Plus, there are a thousand other setups making similar sound effects. Paying attention to sound will actively **** you up. Relying on auditory stimuli is an awful habit.

Have you ever tried?

 

[Life]

Couple of random comments.

I'm a musician. I play my horn in orchestras. So maybe it's only me, but I never have a problem hearing the TV over the venue noise. (I'm terrible when it comes to hearing people talking over the venue, though. Probably also comes from sitting in the middle of loud horn sections all the time. Or maybe just the different frequencies from speech and the TV don't mask each other that much.)

As for what to listen to: controller noise is nice in some situations. Rolling from the ledge, for instance, is really obvious if you can hear them hit the loud GCC shoulder button. Also gives you a sense for how hard they're mashing if you have them grabbed (so you know how many pummels you can get away with).

Back to training, I'm in Pittsburgh so I get to play M@V (fairly decent Brawl player) now and then. He always wrecks me in Brawl, but I don't mind playing him because he has this habit of telling his opponent's why he's winning, and it's much less frustrating to get beaten if you know what you can do about it.

 

[Vixen]

I feel like I do an ok job of explaining why I'm winning or what oksas could be doing better but he still gets buttmad lol.

I wish we had more people closer to his level. usually smashests are me okamibw jetfour and oksas and that's it Lols.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Have you ever tried?

I hate to be blunt but if you are going to make this a contest of personal experience, then you ought to first ask yourself the same question.

I've been in this community for a very long time. Yes, I've tried.

Crimson, I have not ever been in a single situation where I couldn't tell whether or not I'd used my double jump due to not hearing the sound. Auditory stimuli is quite useful.

crimson, you are also able to listen to other stimuli like the sound of their controller, or even your opponents reactions to things. I make some of my decisions based off what I hear when they are in certain situations.

I disagree. I think the risk is too much. Auditory reactions might be faster than visual ones, but I care much more about the accuracy of my information intake than raw speed, and visual-only is the purest way to ensure that. I never want to lose a set cause I fsmash when I hear a Marth upB, but then miss it cause it came from the setup behind me. And I sure as hell don't want to take my opponent's gestures or mannerisms into account the one time they do a different hand motion. Making decisions based on what I see on screen is so much simpler, and reduces the likelihood for error.

You can argue its player preference (speed v accuracy) but I think in Melee's case, the choice is pretty clear: being a few milliseconds faster is almost never worth the risk of making a crippling mistake.

Also, though none of us have never been in a GF-at-a-national type situation, I'm very skeptical they hear much game audio if it all. Maybe PP/Mango/Armada etc can chime in on this subject.

 

[Bing]

In terms of listening to base reactions off of and just simply off of muscle memory and what not. It goes both ways, especially in certain MUs. Like for example, While using characters like Fox and Falco, I find that shortened Illusion is memory and timing, while simple things like the sounds of the characters jumpings are sounds. I've never played at a tournament where I couldn't hear the TV, never. I've played at Apex, no I haven't had a couple hundred people screaming/cheering for me, but the fact still remains, when you're sitting right infront of that television, and if you can't, turn it up.

Moving on to the the actual topic at hand, I've been in this situation for awhile now, especially when I have friendlies against players like Kirbykaze, Unknown, Weon-X etc. With that being said, the only thing you can do is play like you always do, tell them there mistakes and things they need to watch out for, and let them blossom on their own. If they have the determination to catch up, they will. And by you both going all out, they will gain experience and get better, they might not notice because you will still be 3 stocking them, but they have improved.

 

[Armada]

TheCrimsonBlur: I actually hear the sound when Im playing. I don't really hear the crowd because Im "blocking them out"

 

[Kimimaru]

Even if I watch matches online with no volume, my brain automatically recognizes which sounds will occur when (Ex. Yoshi's U-air) since I've heard them so often so it's almost like watching with sound.

 

[rawrimamonster]

You can't please dem negative nellies tbh

don't like people like that

This, they're either too stubborn to change how they play to better themselves or just shell out johns.

 

[Bones0]

When I met my training partner he was good enough to use the basic advanced techs like I was, but I was consistently winning. Over time he caught up to me, but I honestly can't say I really did much to help the process. I tried to give advice and insight, but I still do that now and I can't tell if it's even that helpful. For me, it helps a lot to discuss things with myself or others because I usually have too many thoughts to successfully organize them just in my head. I have to write/type them out or talk to myself/someone else out loud. However, I think my training partner simply doesn't learn the same way because he usually doesn't start discussions like I do, but that's fine too.

Basically, I think you should just let them do their own thing when it comes to improving. Trying to help someone improve is great, but at the same time if you baby someone too hard they can get upset when you don't spoon feed them quick-fixes, and they won't learn to problem solve on their own mid-tourney when it's the most valuable skill in the game. From a more practical standpoint of them getting upset, I think it can help to take breaks and just chill for a bit. Not so long that you get cold, but long enough that when you dive back in you feel fresh. Watch a video on YouTube (doesn't necessarily have to be Smash related either), or just grab a quick bite to eat. My suggestion for a video to watch as a break is this one. :D

Just act like you're getting mad whenever he kills you. It'll make him happy.

^LOL I have done this. I must say it does seem to work.

 

[Vixen]

arizona players are really big on auditory cues.

I've never had a problem with mistaking what's going on in my set vs what's happening on another tv.

I also go by physical cues, such as the timing on my rumble.

 

[Biglard]

I don't even know what this means.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Only thing I could suggest is that you use your main.
To you, pulling out a secondary or joke character is just fun and games, but to him it says that he's not good enough for you're main.
My friend used to beat me with the entire cast because he thought it would be more fun for me to play his joke characters than his main, but it felt really degrading and upset me a lot.

 

[MasterShake]

Haha I ruined oksas' chance of getting out of pools.

Sorry dude, had mad fun playing you.

But usually people you lose to have hella more time + exp in the game, no point in getting upset! Getting mad at stuff only distracts and disrupts you.

 

[Stevo]

I usually have to resort to playing a character like Bowser, which makes us both worse players in the long run.

Not that I actually pratice this game anymore.

 

[Kal]

Honestly, there's not much you can do. Your training partner needs to do it for himself. I went through similar things (I generally take losing, even in training, way too seriously, and I am easily frustrated by my own failures). To get around this, I had to start calling myself out and actively working on fixing my problems. It helped when I calmly stated my issues in a non-douchey way (e.g. saying something like "man, I can't seem to avoid getting shield grabbed" was way more constructive than "****, you're not supposed to be able to grab me there!"). It also helped to take regular breaks if I was getting frustrated.

Tell your training partner what he's doing, i.e., that he's making the training less fun for both of you with his attitude. Do this in a way that doesn't appear condescending or patronizing (if he's anything like me, his immediate reaction will be denial, rather than appreciation, for your advice, if it's condescending or patronizing). As for positive reinforcement, be sure to keep it sincere.

Also, one thing that helped me was my friend would take a break from Falco everyone once in a while. Everything tends to annoy me in Smash because I'm an analytical thinker and I tend to come up with (usually bull ****) reasons nothing should ever hit me, ever. Falco, in particular, would get on my last nerve after a few matches because, well, **** Falco. ****ing laser is jank. So my friend would switch to someone who drove me a little less crazy (at least while I was still getting the hang of, you know, becoming a functioning member of society). If there is a character who drives him "the least crazy," I think you should use him with some frequency, and always make it appear as though you want to practice that character. As I said, if you appear patronizing by saying something like "I'm switching to this character because you hate him less," it will probably upset him.

Other than that, the best you can do is continue to have fun. It's his problem, not yours, and there isn't anything you can really do to fix it anyway.

Oh, and nothing I said about me is true. No one judge me.

 

[Ultimate kaos]

Well, I have a couple of training partners. But they are all... Shall we say, not very good at all. I usually go out with my friends to play ssb. I know how to do the more advanced techs while they can't really do all that stuff. So hey usually lose. What I usually do is teach them advanced techs, or just things they should have done at a certain situation.

I guess all I'm saying is give them constructive criticism. Tell them useful strategies in certain matchups, things they should have done a little differently. I do this with my friends, and they have had a significant improvement. Hope this helps!