Making money off tournaments

[Lt.Smash]

Why is it taboo to make money from hosting tourneys? Tournament organization is a service, and for services you deserve money, right?

 

[MattDotZeb]

I would looooove to get paid for tournaments.

But I don't think of it as much of a big deal if you don't get paid.
Out of the years I've run tournaments I have only been paid for... 2 of them, and my total income from tournaments doesn't exceed $100.

Think about it, if people don't run tournaments, then tournaments don't happen.
If every host decided they need a fee... I dunno, I just think it would be silly.

 

[Moooose]

its fine as long as its not too much and you let the players know about it up front

 

[Nø Ca$h]

hosting something at your house or a facility you own with a venue fee is how its done

 

[Nintendude]

Part of your "income" is the privilege of having everyone travel to YOU, rather than you having to make a big trip (which definitely saves a lot of money). Though, I think the host taking like 5% of the pot is perfectly acceptable and I'm surprised more hosts don't do that. Do hosts enter their own tourneys for free as well or do they pay their own entry fee?

 

[X1-12]

Why is it taboo to make money from hosting tourneys? Tournament organization is a service, and for services you deserve money, right?

remember there may just be people who are willing to do the same thing but for free.

 

[Bob Money]

I think this wasn;t an issue until Oc3 I think. Where the payouts were questionable, leading one to think alot of money was spent elsewhere There was a huge thread about it.
I don't know the exact payouts but it was like a 200ish man tourney with 50-75 dollar entrance fee (food/trophies included) and m2k got something really small for 2nd place.(300?)
I dunno, all I know is that this is when I remember it being taboo.

 

[jugfingers]

I think this wasn;t an issue until Oc3 I think. Where the payouts were questionable, leading one to think alot of money was spent elsewhere There was a huge thread about it.
I don't know the exact payouts but it was like a 200ish man tourney with 50-75 dollar entrance fee (food/trophies included) and m2k got something really small for 2nd place.(300?)
I dunno, all I know is that this is when I remember it being taboo.

***** ken and manacloud lol


making money off of tournaments is weasly as ***.

its not like everyone isn't bringing their own tv's and gamecubes and whatever, its pretty much like, show up at this time and place, and play your matches, and then whatevr whatever for the venue fee, it shouldn't really be that complicated.

 

[omegawhitemage]

Part of your "income" is the privilege of having everyone travel to YOU, rather than you having to make a big trip (which definitely saves a lot of money). Though, I think the host taking like 5% of the pot is perfectly acceptable and I'm surprised more hosts don't do that. Do hosts enter their own tourneys for free as well or do they pay their own entry fee?

Pot skimming from a tournament and keeping that money for yourself is bull**** and any host who does that is bad. The only way a host should make money from a tournament is if the venue fee collected exceeds the amount the TO needs to pay out to venue and any other expenses.

Pretty much every TO I know, including myself, enters their own tournament for free and doesn't pay venue fee. That's more or less all compensation received for the time we put in. Given the fact that for some majors it takes a few hundred hours of prep over 6-9 months I think that's more than fair.

 

[pockyD]

Pretty much every TO I know, including myself, enters their own tournament for free and doesn't pay venue fee. That's more or less all compensation received for the time we put in. Given the fact that for some majors it takes a few hundred hours of prep over 6-9 months I think that's more than fair.

i hope you're moving money from the venue fee into the pot to cover your free entry

anyway as has already been said, nothing wrong with profiting from a tournament if you do it openly and inform everyone in advance. aside from that, it's "taboo" simply because people don't want to spend more money than they have to, and fact of the matter is, someone else almost certainly IS willing to do it for free

 

[Nintendude]

Pot skimming from a tournament and keeping that money for yourself is bull**** and any host who does that is bad. The only way a host should make money from a tournament is if the venue fee collected exceeds the amount the TO needs to pay out to venue and any other expenses.

Pretty much every TO I know, including myself, enters their own tournament for free and doesn't pay venue fee. That's more or less all compensation received for the time we put in. Given the fact that for some majors it takes a few hundred hours of prep over 6-9 months I think that's more than fair.

I still don't get why this mentality exists (other than the Manacloud debacle). If a host makes it clear in advance that he's gonna take like 5% of the pot then I don't see the problem. If people disagree with that and don't want like $2 of their money going to the TO then they shouldn't enter - plain and simple.

TOs provide a tremendous service to the community, and the competitive scene could not function without them. Do you really think that a free tournament entry fee is full compensation for a few hundred hours worth of work and stress? Sure, they get other things out of it (like not having to travel), and it can be an extremely rewarding experience, but for them to take a little bit of money in exchange for a ridiculous time investment is perfectly fair imo if it's a very small percentage of the pot and it is mentioned clearly beforehand. Businesses sometimes make a LOT of money off of venue fees and they don't do anything except provide a space and pay for electricity (and then sometimes more than make that money back by selling food). Just because you replace "business" with "TO" and "venue" with "his house" doesn't mean he isn't entitled to a little bit of the same.

The money can also do more than compensate the TOs for their time. If TOs have some extra cash from their tourneys, they can use it to invest in cheap CRT TVs, power strips, recording equipment, mics, and other tournament equipment.

Would it be nice of TOs didn't take money from the pot? Of course.
Is a TO right in taking money from the pot? Yes, provided he makes it clear beforehand.
Does taking money from the pot automatically make that host bad? No.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Pretty much every TO I know, including myself, enters their own tournament for free and doesn't pay venue fee.

This is what I do when I host locals.

I firmly believe that having a separate venue fee is the best way to go. That money can then go to whatever without anyone complaining because they know what they are getting into beforehand.

 

[metalmonstar]

Wait!? It is wrong to skim the pot but it is alright to enter for free. How does that make sense at all. In both situations you are robbing the pot and the winner of money. I don't agree with this at all.

I am a firm believer that the TO should be allowed and almost expected to make money off of the tournament. Running a tournament well can be draining and nearly a full days worth of work. Not to mention the countless hours you put in before hand. The tournament would need to be massively sucessful in order to make a tournament more worthwhile then just working a normal job on that day. So really the TO is losing out in most situations anyway. TOs run tournaments because they love the game and community.

I feel that the TO should make his/her money off of the separate venue fee. Taking a house cut can be complicated and messy because you need to run X amount of games with Y amount of players at Z percent in order to break even or reach profit goals. There is much more flexibility in a straight 5 dollar venue fee. If you want to make more increase the price. If you offer good enough services then people will come.

Like others have said be open with the community let them know that you plan to make some extra off of the event. Although I personally don't like the house cut method, I see nothing wrong with it if players agree to it beforehand.

EDIT: This topic may interest you
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=272491&highlight=pricing

 

[pockyD]

yeah i pretty much agree that entering for free is nonsense unless you pay what would've been your entry fee out of the surplus venue fee

 

[Rain(ame)]

A lot of time goes into to organizing a tournament. If someone who does an amazing job wants to get paid for it, they have a right. Amazing TO's put quality work into what they do. Sure...you'll get the "free" TO's who may not do as great of a job. Then what? Is an extra dollar or 2 not worth the quality work that they take out of their day to hold a tournament? Try running a tournament...no......try even just helping to run a tournament, and see the work involved. It's quite the eye opener.

The Venue fee should include the payment to the TO; while the pot, itself is untouched. I also don't see why a TO should have to pay to enter their own tournament. That is IF the TO should decide to want to get paid. I see it that way, anyhow. Venue fees cover expenses....so that's about it.

 

[omegawhitemage]

yeah i pretty much agree that entering for free is nonsense unless you pay what would've been your entry fee out of the surplus venue fee

Honestly, the amount that each player who makes money is missing is very marginal. I'm not sure if other TO's transfer money over from the excess venue fee's but it wouldn't surprise me if they did not. Realistically, it's not that big of a deal to me if they don't, given the fact that we spend tons of time beforehand working on making things run perfectly. I suppose I'd be pissed if a TO let themselves and their whole crew into the tournament for free. Even in that case though I wouldn't be too angry. Then again I'm not placing in the money so it's whatever for me regardless. Anyway, if a TO were to pay for their own venue fee in excess venue money then we're essentially paying for our entry anyway which makes entering for free pointless since we're taking money out of our own pockets regardless. I really don't see an issue with entering for free if you organized the tournament...but I've never been a top player so I don't understand their mindset.

 

[Solid Jake]

Honestly, the amount that each player who makes money is missing is very marginal. I'm not sure if other TO's transfer money over from the excess venue fee's but it wouldn't surprise me if they did not. Realistically, it's not that big of a deal to me if they don't, given the fact that we spend tons of time beforehand working on making things run perfectly. I suppose I'd be pissed if a TO let themselves and their whole crew into the tournament for free. Even in that case though I wouldn't be too angry. Then again I'm not placing in the money so it's whatever for me regardless. Anyway, if a TO were to pay for their own venue fee in excess venue money then we're essentially paying for our entry anyway which makes entering for free pointless since we're taking money out of our own pockets regardless. I really don't see an issue with entering for free if you organized the tournament...but I've never been a top player so I don't understand their mindset.

I agree 100%, the amount of work a TO puts into the event easily merits free entry in my opinion.

 

[pockyD]

when you have a separate venue fee and pot, it's understood that the pot is the pot and contains the entry fees for each player in the tournament, whereas the venue fee covers all the expenses that are not the winners' earnings

when you enter for free, aka pay for your entry out of the pot, you're using the wrong pool of money; if you consider your TO skills and time a logistical expense, then it's fairly obvious it should be coming out of the venue fee, which is earmarked precisely for that sort of thing

 

[omegawhitemage]

I've never made it a secret that I enter my own tournaments for free and I've never heard any sort of objection to that fact. So I suppose it's up to individual TO's to determine that for themselves.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I've likewise never made it a secret that I enter my tournaments for free. And I would support any TO that does this and I happen to know it is a very common practice (most TOs do do this).

when you enter for free, aka pay for your entry out of the pot, you're using the wrong pool of money

This isn't true. When you enter for free, you aren't using any pool of money! If there are 30 entrants in the tournament and I am one of them, then the pot is simply $290 instead of $300.

 

[pockyD]

i'm wondering what the logic is for taking an entry fee-sized cut from the prize pool for that specific expense when all other expenses are taking from the venue fee pool

This isn't true. When you enter for free, you aren't using any pool of money! If there are 30 entrants in the tournament and I am one of them, then the pot is simply $290 instead of $300.

but the pot SHOULD be $300, because the winner is besting a tournament of 30 players

 

[AlphaZealot]

Or the pot should be $290, because I tell people all the time I don't pay entry to my own tournaments.

Of course I guess I could always just forgo buying poster boards/pens/paper/tape/cords/etc and put that money in the pot...

For most TOs the venue fee isn't money they can freely use. It's usually going to some other source. Like when I hosted my Wings and Brew tournament series, the $5 venue fee went entirely to Wings and Brew. In exchange though every entrant got pizza and unlimited fountain drinks. My point is that typically the venue fee is money going to a 3rd party and not actually profit for the TO or even money that the TO can put toward future resources like TVs/extension cords/poster board/pens/sharpies/scissors/etc etc, most TOs buy all that stuff out of pocket and accumulate it over time.

 

[pockyD]

to each their own

i find it unnecessarily misleading and confusing when being accountable to the entrants, especially when the 'free entry' starts getting applied to more people for one reason or another

 

[Lovage]

i think free entry just the TO at a local tournament it's completely reasonable

and the larger the tournament the more free entries the TO can get away with

but if it's like a 19 man tournament and there's 3 "co-host" free entries and the TO's girlfriend or some **** eventually people start scratching their heads at why the payout is so small

 

[Rappster]

PockyD, do you give people a discount for bringing setups?

 

[pockyD]

i would

and it would be a break in the venue fee

when you charge them separately, the pot is untouched and directly correlates to the entrants

 

[KAOSTAR]

I don't like venue fees because they end up making people pay more. but I guess you can offset this by saying 8 entry 2 venue. same ten dollars.

pocky is only advocating the logistics and fairness of this type of event.

do what you want but be up front, and just compensate on paper. projected ten man tourney, you want free entry. 9 entry 1 venue.

its the professional loop hole and it should be followed. the winner should always get his cut of the pot, he did x amount of dollars of beating people @ a certain rate.

pockyd is 100% correct. its all about semantics.

 

[0megaZer0]

My situation is different, I have no venue fee...meaning getting in is free

But of course you pay your way into the tourney...while I do lose a small amount of money doing that...in my case I don't see why I can't enter my own tourney for free...

IMO that is the only way you should be able to get in your own tourney free

Also, the size of the tourney matters as well (DUH! lol)

If ever I won an event that I entered for free, I would never take the money, I all ways split no matter what

 

[pockyD]

if, instead of separating entry fee and the prize pool, you only keep one pool of money and take whatever you need out of it to cover your expenses (venue, setups, any compensation to people running the tournament {including free entry}), then it makes perfect sense to just give yourself free entry if you feel you deserve it, as entrants aren't misled when paying their entry fee. This is a very common setup for smaller scale tournaments, as running the tournament takes no real effort (no huge expenses to make sure to cover) so it really just makes sense to take what you need and otherwise give any leftover money back to the players (through the prize pool).

It's still a bit of a double edged sword, as if the turnout is low, the winner might get paid less than they would have if the fees had been separate, simply because the aggregate 'venue fee' in this case is essentially constant (i.e. if your only cost is renting the venue and it's $50, then if there are 10 people at a $10 entry, your prize pool is only $50, but if there are 20 people at $10, the prize pools is $150; in both cases, the only 'cut' the TO is taking is $50 (maybe $60 if they feel they deserve free entry))

but when they are charged separately, there's a very clear notion in mine (and most peoples') heads that states that for each player in the tournament, there will be a corresponding entry fee in the prize pool, while for anything paid into the venue fee, the T.O. is free to do whatever they wish with it. In this model, the T.O. takes on some measure of risk, as their venue fee intake is variable and directly correlating to the turnout; if the turnout is too low, they might not have enough to cover their expenses (and a good T.O. would take the loss and cover it out of pocket IMO, but this is debatable)... but there's also the higher reward of, in the case of an excellent turnout, the T.O. being entitled to pocket all the surplus venue fee

 

[KAOSTAR]

its usually not a big deal. ppl are just happy that you hosted. but what if you are in the money. you just invited everyone over to give you money without taking any risk in the tourney.

just lower the entry by a dollar and make it 1 venue. same price but then the money is legitimately accounted for. by the book son!

 

[mastermoo420]

TO's SHOULD TAKE MONEY FROM THE POT TO GET CAPTURE CARDS FOR EVERY SET-UP SO THERE'S EPIC RECORDING GOING ON EVERYWHERE. But people have to bring laptops, lol.

 

[P. O. F.]

What TO's do with their tournament is their business. No one elses.

If people hate what they are doing, than don't attend/***** about it. Every TO makes clear of what they are doing unless they are purposely trying to be a tool. End of discussion.

Half of the posters in here do not host tournaments or have very little experience in doing so. OWM, Solid Jake, Mattdotzeb, Zealot, and myself (I've had people steal close to $200.00 at my Friggin house for a tournament and i've hosted 3-4) are the only viable posters in here. Everyone else is just speculation and opinion.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Half of the posters in here do not host tournaments or have very little experience in doing so. OWM, Solid Jake, Mattdotzeb, Zealot, and myself (I've had people steal close to $200.00 at my Friggin house for a tournament and i've hosted 3-4) are the only viable posters in here. Everyone else is just speculation and opinion.

actually its not speculation OR opinion. its derived from a basic understanding of laws.

most of your post was completely irrelevant in terms of what a TO is obligated to do because he accepts ppl's money and they have a certain expectation.

the tourney thread serves MOST importantly as the contract in case there is a dispute, good TO's are aware of this and spend adequate time making the OP.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I mean I don't completely disagree with PockyD. If the scenario were different and I stood to actually make money from a tournament through venue fee or something then I'd probably pay in. And I do agree that it really should just be limited to the TO only. However, not paying entry/venue is sorta one of the reasons I run tournaments in the first place, and I know that is the case for other TO's as well.

 

[PK-ow!]

Entering for free is criminal.
No one should stand for it.

Not paying venue is fine. The T.O. *got* the venue; the rest of you are now enjoying the tourney!


Remarks about ethical matters may or may not be "speculation or opinion." But they do matter, no matter who is making them, as long as they are honestly made.


But let's consider this:

Say I ask the T.O. of my next tourney,
"Hey man, you know I'd like to enter this tourney for free. You wanna see if the players are okay with the smaller pot, and my free shot at hundreds of dollars and their best competition?"

That wouldn't be considered for a second and I'd be a **** for asking.
A T.O. who does this secretly is, as agreed, a tool. But a T.O. who does this, even openly, is just pressuring everyone else because he, presumably, holds some weight with not being turned down. People don't want to just "not enter the tourney" because the T.O. is a tool. They put up with it. But that doesn't make it right. They put up with the T.O. being exactly the same ****, as I am, in the above case. Heck, I didn't even get away with anything. The T.O. actually does get a free shot at hundreds of dollars, and makes other people basically give him money-match level effort without any risk.

It's more and more disturbing the more I think about it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You are welcome to run a tournament then. Most TO's are putting well over the entry fee into the tournament and aren't getting a cent from the venue. Do you really think people would want to throw tournaments knowing each time its at a minimum a $20-$40 loss without paying for entry (this is locals, the bigger ones are even worse).

It really is one of those things where you need to be talking from experience. I don't know if I've even met a TO who would be against this practice, though I'm sure there are a couple.

I'm never upset when other TOs do it at their tournament. I know what they are going through. You get there before everyone, stay after, set up, tear down, pick up trash by yourself, put money in for little things like trashbags or pens that adds up. Then you play like **** for the tournament just cause you are dealing with the stress of, well, running a tournament. Many TO's all they ask is to enter their own tournament for free.

 

[Johnknight1]

i think free entry just the TO at a local tournament it's completely reasonable

and the larger the tournament the more free entries the TO can get away with

but if it's like a 19 man tournament and there's 3 "co-host" free entries and the TO's girlfriend or some **** eventually people start scratching their heads at why the payout is so small

QFT. Giving away free entry to anyone who isn't an actual TO is extremely unethical. Profiting off a tournament... not so much (as long as you're open about it).

Also, when tournament hosts charge for the venue fee and they have a surplus of money, it should go into the pot. I think not doing that or something similar and taking the player's money is a totally unethical move. Basically... everything should be totally open-except the pot!

As long as none of that is happening, it's all good. If a tournament host wants to get into their tournament for free, they should be able to. It's the least they do for dealing with dumb a***es like me!

 

[KevinM]

I would looooove to get paid for tournaments.

But I don't think of it as much of a big deal if you don't get paid.
Out of the years I've run tournaments I have only been paid for... 2 of them, and my total income from tournaments doesn't exceed $100.

Think about it, if people don't run tournaments, then tournaments don't happen.
If every host decided they need a fee... I dunno, I just think it would be silly.

That's cause other people run them for you

 

[KAOSTAR]

I mean I don't completely disagree with PockyD. If the scenario were different and I stood to actually make money from a tournament through venue fee or something then I'd probably pay in. And I do agree that it really should just be limited to the TO only. However, not paying entry/venue is sorta one of the reasons I run tournaments in the first place, and I know that is the case for other TO's as well.

its not a bad thing to get free entry. but doing it by the book keeps ALL disputes in check.

just make the entry fee a little smaller and compensate the difference with venue. in that case you get as many free entries as the venue fee will allow.

nothing changes, you just are more up front and still professional.

10 man tourney @ 10 a piece. the TO wants free entry. normally 100 in the pot. if you take away the TO's entry you have 90.

make it a 9 dollar tourney + 1 venue.
9x9=81. 1x9 = 9. the venue compensates your entry. 81 + 9 = 90.

by the book son. nobody can get mad cuz they got 70% of what should have been 100 but instead only 90.