peeup
Smash Lord
My old Invoker wasn't from MYM6, it was from MYM5 (or maybe 4, but I think it was 5). Besides, this is an Invoker from an older version of DotA, aka he has like 20 more specials.
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The Necromancer
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2009
- Messages
- 6
Never mind. Just learned it was stored in an external hard disk... -_-'
Well, anyways, that means I should be finished with the Devil sooooon!
Well, anyways, that means I should be finished with the Devil sooooon!
RIDER: Right off the bat, Rool's gonna cream over this baby for being experimental. I won't follow suit, but I do commend you for taking a risk and eliminating headers overall. It's good to see a character with the option for a ranged playstyle that doesn't involve...campcampcampcampcampcampcamp...with a close-ranged KO thrown in. Anyways, I like how Rider doesn't even have to stick to a certain type of playstyle, similarly to Morton. Nothing individual stands out too much other than her differentiation from a range, but there are nice attacks (albeit gory) attacks in there.
My main complaint against Rider is that, while her writing style is just fine, the whole set seemed like one long playstyle, rather than a set itself, due to scrambling the move types around by functions. Not a huge detraction for me, but I could easily see why someone would tl;dr it, or stick to Subaru. Subaru > Rider = Saber for me right now. I can't see Subaru falling from power as your top contender anytime soon, but I think it's safe to say that we'll keep Rider in our minds, whether we liked her or not, due to her uniqueness. Pretty good job (Y).
By the way, I know I haven't been keeping up the comments so consistently so far; let Rider be known as a starting point for me commenting on all the (halfway decent) sets that are submitted from here on out. If school doesn't throw a wrench into the equation, that is.
My main complaint against Rider is that, while her writing style is just fine, the whole set seemed like one long playstyle, rather than a set itself, due to scrambling the move types around by functions. Not a huge detraction for me, but I could easily see why someone would tl;dr it, or stick to Subaru. Subaru > Rider = Saber for me right now. I can't see Subaru falling from power as your top contender anytime soon, but I think it's safe to say that we'll keep Rider in our minds, whether we liked her or not, due to her uniqueness. Pretty good job (Y).
By the way, I know I haven't been keeping up the comments so consistently so far; let Rider be known as a starting point for me commenting on all the (halfway decent) sets that are submitted from here on out. If school doesn't throw a wrench into the equation, that is.
Wizzerd
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 929
As I've said in-xat, I like Stanley a good bit, Kupa. Before getting into why though, let's get into my one and only significant complaint - Stanley is underpowered. The main culprit of this is fortunately mechanical rather than conceptual. Stanley just can't make his mist clouds fast enough, and they have too short of a timer. 1.5 seconds for a full cloud is two Falcon Punches, and 10 seconds for them to last isn't long enough considering that he needs to cover the stage with them.
That said, Stanley does come together very well into a rather unexplored playstyle. While he is admittedly a camper, he -is- somewhat interesting about how he does it, and I love the concept of the Up Special, though the recovery properties are rather forced. I suspect that some of his moves are only there for him being able to use them in the game, but this would make him all the more true to character, and what do I know? - nothing about the character. I'd heard of him, but thought he was a literal bug.
Stanley is sort of like Saber in perfecting a genre, but he's more interesting in how he perfects it than how Saber does. Your playstyle is fairly well written though it gives unfair credit to the mist clouds (that's a balance concern I already talked about though), and your matchups aren't amazing but definitely some of the better ones you've made. I don't know why you've retained extras for so long, however, but it's no big deal at all.
There are a couple of other minor flubs. The grabs and throws aren't all that interesting or relevant, and I think you could have easily made a grab mechanic seeing how good you can be at them like in Hades. I think it would have been better to give more emphasis to the freezing Up Special as you crafted your playstyle, too, seeing how unique it is as a concept in halting your own projectiles. Still, Stanley is still a solid work from you.
I'm not sure what to say about Rider. Making the entire moveset essentially a massive playstyle seems to fit character and playstyle wise, but it's incredibly disorienting. Sloth did this, but he kept the move categories intact and had headers to further clear it. Rider jumps all around from Side Special to tilts to a couple of throws... and yeah. The point is, it makes her as a moveset difficult to visualise and understand. There's generally logic to how it's arranged, but at times it feels haphazard, like you're looking for ways to link moves together.
Sort of like Gluttony, Rider tends to introduce important concepts out of place. You don't even give us any idea of her stats, and you tell us things like the negative end lag of chain attacks and the fact that her attacks change when she has the opponent chained halfway through, which is very meh. Even a simple paragraph introducing these concepts at the beginning would work wonders, and wouldn't disrupt your efforts to sacrifice readability for minimal gain.
Rider really is a fantastic moveset when you can actually get into it, by the way. The chains are reminiscent of Sloth but used much, much differently, in a way that makes Rider drastically unique. As Kupa said, a ranged character who doesn't camp is a nice sight to see, and the playstyle is nicely broad. Admittedly, though, she's somewhat similar to Subaru in a lot of her moves being somewhat bland, particularly aerials. Anyway, she's a good set when you get down to it, but getting there is a big problem...
That said, Stanley does come together very well into a rather unexplored playstyle. While he is admittedly a camper, he -is- somewhat interesting about how he does it, and I love the concept of the Up Special, though the recovery properties are rather forced. I suspect that some of his moves are only there for him being able to use them in the game, but this would make him all the more true to character, and what do I know? - nothing about the character. I'd heard of him, but thought he was a literal bug.
Stanley is sort of like Saber in perfecting a genre, but he's more interesting in how he perfects it than how Saber does. Your playstyle is fairly well written though it gives unfair credit to the mist clouds (that's a balance concern I already talked about though), and your matchups aren't amazing but definitely some of the better ones you've made. I don't know why you've retained extras for so long, however, but it's no big deal at all.
There are a couple of other minor flubs. The grabs and throws aren't all that interesting or relevant, and I think you could have easily made a grab mechanic seeing how good you can be at them like in Hades. I think it would have been better to give more emphasis to the freezing Up Special as you crafted your playstyle, too, seeing how unique it is as a concept in halting your own projectiles. Still, Stanley is still a solid work from you.
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I'm not sure what to say about Rider. Making the entire moveset essentially a massive playstyle seems to fit character and playstyle wise, but it's incredibly disorienting. Sloth did this, but he kept the move categories intact and had headers to further clear it. Rider jumps all around from Side Special to tilts to a couple of throws... and yeah. The point is, it makes her as a moveset difficult to visualise and understand. There's generally logic to how it's arranged, but at times it feels haphazard, like you're looking for ways to link moves together.
Sort of like Gluttony, Rider tends to introduce important concepts out of place. You don't even give us any idea of her stats, and you tell us things like the negative end lag of chain attacks and the fact that her attacks change when she has the opponent chained halfway through, which is very meh. Even a simple paragraph introducing these concepts at the beginning would work wonders, and wouldn't disrupt your efforts to sacrifice readability for minimal gain.
Rider really is a fantastic moveset when you can actually get into it, by the way. The chains are reminiscent of Sloth but used much, much differently, in a way that makes Rider drastically unique. As Kupa said, a ranged character who doesn't camp is a nice sight to see, and the playstyle is nicely broad. Admittedly, though, she's somewhat similar to Subaru in a lot of her moves being somewhat bland, particularly aerials. Anyway, she's a good set when you get down to it, but getting there is a big problem...
darth meanie
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 452
Meanie Multitasks In His Posts
Stanley The Bugman
I was rather disappointed with Stanley on a first readthrough, and while I appreciate him more after the second, I still can't say that he really impresses me that much. I certainly like the idea of making a non-predictable camper, but I feel that his traps were a little forced and felt odd. Using bug spray to freeze water bubbles in a cloud of mist just doesn't make quite that much sense to me.
It's a good set though, and you're certainly good at squeezing playstyle out of the least likely places, but he still feels bland to me, and I blame this on character choice. It reminds me of the gunpowder attacks Kaptain K Rool used, they simply weren't very interesting or active, and it makes this set come off worse than it is. I liked it on reread, but he still doesn't wow me.
I see everyone is starting to get tired of my female characters. Worry not though, none of my future plans have vaginas.
On to other things, like Rider's Match-Ups!
Abra presents an immediate problem. While your focus is on positioning, he can move himself around the battlefield with ease. Fortunately, most of his teleports are fairly short ranged, but you can't play defensively with long chains, as Abra can easily slip past your nail into the zone where you can't threaten him as effectively. It also makes your Blood Fort Andromeda circles fairly ineffective; even if you attach them under the lip of Final Destination, Abra can just Down Smash beneath, attack it, and still teleport back to the edge without even having to use his Up Special.
Fortunately, with your chains, you can put your threat range in line with his. Abra prefers to try to stay at about a battlefield's platform away from the opponent if he can; you can keep your threat range at that same length too. However, trying to space Abra is still going to be monstrously difficult. With Afterimage and Subsitute, it takes nigh godly prediction to know where he's trying to attack from. You'll want to be the one taking initiative in this fight, not Abra.
Making things worse, gimping Abra is nearly impossible. While you can chain him like anyone else with a hit from your Side Special, if Abra teleports out of the range of the chains, he's freed. It's almost impossible to chain Abra with this, much less use it to set up some of your other attacks. Grabbing a chained Abra will be practically impossible.
Even if you do though, you can't really gimp him with his Up Special either. The simple press of a button, and he's back on the stage safe and sound. Of course, once you figure out where this point is, it becomes a simpler matter to hit a Forward Smash or Up Tilt when you expect him to arrive; with Rider's long range, it's not too hard to hit him right as he tries to teleport back.
If you can get a good distance away from him too, your Neutral Special can work well. Most of his long-distance approaches have a fair amount of starting lag, and you can use that time to try to paralyze him and set him up for your Up Special. Even without paralyzing Abra, your Up Special remains a strong, if risky KO option; while you can hit long range and cover a decent area of the stage, Abra can still teleport away fairly easily and leave you suffering from both ending lag and self damage.
In the end though, Abra is going to have an easier time getting those small quick hits off of you, and your usual tactics for getting kills aren't going to be effective. Whether you win or lose this match depends on if you can land your more traditional kill moves like your Up Tilt, Dash Attack, Forward Smash, and Back Aerial on Abra or not. If you can, you have a good chance at winning this match, but if Abra outmaneuvers you, you'll have a hard time winning.
Doppelori is the mistress of hit and repel, of getting in close and knocking the opponent far way. Unfortunately for Doppelori, Rider has the ability to fight at any range, making approaching her or taking advantage of repelling her relatively difficult for Doppelori.
Rider can also chain her without too much difficulty; her long distance attacks generally leave a nice window for Rider to toss her chains out for. Artillery Fire has some clear blindspots, and leave Doppelori completely vulnerable to a Side Special. Once Rider has Doppelori chained, she can start stalling pretty easily. While Blood Fort Andromeda is going to be difficult to use with Doppelori's artillery fire, tossing her around while she attempts to hit Rider, pulling her in for a chaingrab, or keeping Doppelori closer than she would like is easy.
Things get worse for Doppelori, as a cunning Rider will keep an eye on the clock during the match. Once it gets around the fifty second mark, Rider will go for a Side Special and chain Doppelori for when she gets her Final Smash. Rider's Final Smash is no Excaliber, but a difficult to dodge attack that deals 35% is nothing to sneeze at.
Doppelori's options are rather limited in this match. Artillery Fire leaves her vulnerable for Rider's Side Special and Smashes, and Rider has too easy a time fighting at a distance for Doppelori to get a suicide KO off if things go bad. Rider's excessive range and passive-agressive playstyle though will make it a very difficult match for Doppelori though. As is usual with matches with Doppelori though, if she does manage to hit with her Final Smash or avoid the usual pain that comes with it, she has an excellent chance at changing the entire game up.
Cairne is an interesting beast to fight. The first stock is where Rider is going to play very defensively. Cairne already has a reincarnation up and ready to go, so there's no need to rush into the first stock. Cairne will want to get in close to land War Stomps and build up damage on you at the same time, so play hard to get with spaced jabs and forward smashes to force him away.
Cairne can break through your spacing attempts without too much difficulty though, using his Side Special to try to force you into the air and rushing at you. Once he does get you with his Up Special, he'll get a few hits in with that Up Special, and if your chains are extended at that point, you won't have any fast attacks to counter him with either.
Once he does have his pit though, things change. Once his pit is a little deep, you can't chain him with your Side Special if he hides in it, and you'll only really be able to hit him in it with moves like your Forward Air and Jab when your chains are extended, meaning he has an easier time camping in it than he does against most enemies. You'll want to approach directly, something that Rider just isn't used too.
Cairne will likely get the first KO, either hitting you with the sweetspot of his Up Smash as you try to approach his pit, or stomping you if you do get into it. You'll likely be going for your Up Tilt or Up Special for your KO back, as you can aim your Up Special into his pit to hit a wide angle, or whack him with your Up Tilt after dodging one of his many high-end lag moves.
That's when the game really kicks up. Now its a race with his reincarnation timer. Rider can suicide KO without too much trouble, so that's what you'll be going for. Doing it however is going to be a difficult job. You'll have a hard time hitting him when he's in the pit, so you'll have to lure him out with your Down Smash, or play aggressive and try to hit with it at point blank. Cairne won't have too hard of a time stalling against you in his pit, as his Down Smash renders him immune to your Side Special still.
If you do manage to get him chained with enough time left on the clock, use your Up Smash or Back Aerial to get him around offstage and Up Aerial to try to hurl him to his death. His recovery is right amazing with his ability to recovery no matter what using his back aerial, meaning this is still going to be hard, especially since he'll still be shaking the control stick when he's switching from one direction to the other, so he can break free eventually. Aim to throw him with your Up Aerial the moment he rises above you and bring him down with you.
If you fail to suicide KO him in time, you have a very very hard fight ahead of you. Assuming you got some damage on him, you'll have to go with your standard KOs again. It's not too terrible; his normal defensive maneuvers don't work as well with your range, and you can rack damage on him pretty fast with your chaingrab if you hit with it, but Rider is going to have a hard time getting that KO, especially if she ends up dying when she tries the suicide KO and Cairne lives.
Even with all of Cairne's stalling and recovery tecnhiqes though, two minutes is a fairly long time, and Rider has a good chance at getting that KO if she can. This match can end up going either way though, its nobody's shoe-in for victory.
Stanley The Bugman
I was rather disappointed with Stanley on a first readthrough, and while I appreciate him more after the second, I still can't say that he really impresses me that much. I certainly like the idea of making a non-predictable camper, but I feel that his traps were a little forced and felt odd. Using bug spray to freeze water bubbles in a cloud of mist just doesn't make quite that much sense to me.
It's a good set though, and you're certainly good at squeezing playstyle out of the least likely places, but he still feels bland to me, and I blame this on character choice. It reminds me of the gunpowder attacks Kaptain K Rool used, they simply weren't very interesting or active, and it makes this set come off worse than it is. I liked it on reread, but he still doesn't wow me.
This isn't a permanent change, mind you. Just something that I wanted to experiment with for Rider, the way her playstyle flowed seemed to make this work. My next few sets will assuredly have more standard formatting.
The presentation was actually made independent of Doppelori, and Doppelori presents her moves in the order of directions, as opposed to Rider, who is ordered by which moves follow the best. And yes, it did have the advantage of letting me cover less interesting moves like her Up Tilt and Dash Attack quickly, and move on to her more creative moves, while still exhibiting the playstyle.
Stats weren't present because they didn't fit the organization, which is also why she doesn't have match-ups (although I'm adding them in now). I suppose were a gun held to my head though, I would describe her as a midweight character, the size of Sheik but somewhat taller, and a fastfaller with average aerial DI and very fast runner.
Blood Fort Andromeda does offer her a way to regain health lost from the Up Special, but it's also there to offer her an added bonus for stalling and defensive play, and making the positioning of her opponent and chains more important to her playstyle. Also, Rider's Up Special is hardly a flawless recovery when it deals 20% damage to herself. If you consider regeneration a form of recovery (which it is to an extent), then self-damage is the opposite of recovering. If she has to use her Up Special to recover, she'll be KO'd fairly easily.
Done.
I see everyone is starting to get tired of my female characters. Worry not though, none of my future plans have vaginas.
Yeah, Rider definitely approaches things differently than most other sets, and I feel that her playstyle had the right balance of specific tactics and plans with a versatile strategy, with the whole passive-aggressive playing style.BKupa666 said:
The goal was for me to make her a giant playstyle section, but it seemed that it didn't go over as well as I thought. Ah well though, Rider's still a strong set, and if a massive playstyle and disorienting organization are her only weaknesses, I think I did well. I'd hoped Rider would surpass Subaru and Saber, but I can always do that with my next set.
The organization I was trying wasn't perfect. Although every move fit together like a puzzle, I couldn't line everything up as easily as I'd wanted to, so there were a few haphazard links, like after the Down Smash.Wizzerd said:
I'll admit I was zealous in trying to maintain this organization, but I don't regret it. I did something original here, and I hope I've learned from the failures and successes it had.
Rider's definitely got a great playstyle going on, although I don't see how her aerials are particularly bland, seeing as two of them are her most important and easiest to use attacks to swing the opponent around, and two others are designed to chain right out of them. Anyways, I hope that people will remember the good of Rider when they fill out that voting form, and I have a feeling that as some time passes, Rider's strengths will become more apparent as the initial complexity of her moveset seems to fade.
On to other things, like Rider's Match-Ups!
VS Abra
Abra presents an immediate problem. While your focus is on positioning, he can move himself around the battlefield with ease. Fortunately, most of his teleports are fairly short ranged, but you can't play defensively with long chains, as Abra can easily slip past your nail into the zone where you can't threaten him as effectively. It also makes your Blood Fort Andromeda circles fairly ineffective; even if you attach them under the lip of Final Destination, Abra can just Down Smash beneath, attack it, and still teleport back to the edge without even having to use his Up Special.
Fortunately, with your chains, you can put your threat range in line with his. Abra prefers to try to stay at about a battlefield's platform away from the opponent if he can; you can keep your threat range at that same length too. However, trying to space Abra is still going to be monstrously difficult. With Afterimage and Subsitute, it takes nigh godly prediction to know where he's trying to attack from. You'll want to be the one taking initiative in this fight, not Abra.
Making things worse, gimping Abra is nearly impossible. While you can chain him like anyone else with a hit from your Side Special, if Abra teleports out of the range of the chains, he's freed. It's almost impossible to chain Abra with this, much less use it to set up some of your other attacks. Grabbing a chained Abra will be practically impossible.
Even if you do though, you can't really gimp him with his Up Special either. The simple press of a button, and he's back on the stage safe and sound. Of course, once you figure out where this point is, it becomes a simpler matter to hit a Forward Smash or Up Tilt when you expect him to arrive; with Rider's long range, it's not too hard to hit him right as he tries to teleport back.
If you can get a good distance away from him too, your Neutral Special can work well. Most of his long-distance approaches have a fair amount of starting lag, and you can use that time to try to paralyze him and set him up for your Up Special. Even without paralyzing Abra, your Up Special remains a strong, if risky KO option; while you can hit long range and cover a decent area of the stage, Abra can still teleport away fairly easily and leave you suffering from both ending lag and self damage.
In the end though, Abra is going to have an easier time getting those small quick hits off of you, and your usual tactics for getting kills aren't going to be effective. Whether you win or lose this match depends on if you can land your more traditional kill moves like your Up Tilt, Dash Attack, Forward Smash, and Back Aerial on Abra or not. If you can, you have a good chance at winning this match, but if Abra outmaneuvers you, you'll have a hard time winning.
Final Result: 42.5 / 57.5 Abra's Favor
VS Doppelori
Doppelori is the mistress of hit and repel, of getting in close and knocking the opponent far way. Unfortunately for Doppelori, Rider has the ability to fight at any range, making approaching her or taking advantage of repelling her relatively difficult for Doppelori.
Rider can also chain her without too much difficulty; her long distance attacks generally leave a nice window for Rider to toss her chains out for. Artillery Fire has some clear blindspots, and leave Doppelori completely vulnerable to a Side Special. Once Rider has Doppelori chained, she can start stalling pretty easily. While Blood Fort Andromeda is going to be difficult to use with Doppelori's artillery fire, tossing her around while she attempts to hit Rider, pulling her in for a chaingrab, or keeping Doppelori closer than she would like is easy.
Things get worse for Doppelori, as a cunning Rider will keep an eye on the clock during the match. Once it gets around the fifty second mark, Rider will go for a Side Special and chain Doppelori for when she gets her Final Smash. Rider's Final Smash is no Excaliber, but a difficult to dodge attack that deals 35% is nothing to sneeze at.
Doppelori's options are rather limited in this match. Artillery Fire leaves her vulnerable for Rider's Side Special and Smashes, and Rider has too easy a time fighting at a distance for Doppelori to get a suicide KO off if things go bad. Rider's excessive range and passive-agressive playstyle though will make it a very difficult match for Doppelori though. As is usual with matches with Doppelori though, if she does manage to hit with her Final Smash or avoid the usual pain that comes with it, she has an excellent chance at changing the entire game up.
Final Result: 60 / 40 Rider's Favor
VS Cairne Bloodhoof
Cairne is an interesting beast to fight. The first stock is where Rider is going to play very defensively. Cairne already has a reincarnation up and ready to go, so there's no need to rush into the first stock. Cairne will want to get in close to land War Stomps and build up damage on you at the same time, so play hard to get with spaced jabs and forward smashes to force him away.
Cairne can break through your spacing attempts without too much difficulty though, using his Side Special to try to force you into the air and rushing at you. Once he does get you with his Up Special, he'll get a few hits in with that Up Special, and if your chains are extended at that point, you won't have any fast attacks to counter him with either.
Once he does have his pit though, things change. Once his pit is a little deep, you can't chain him with your Side Special if he hides in it, and you'll only really be able to hit him in it with moves like your Forward Air and Jab when your chains are extended, meaning he has an easier time camping in it than he does against most enemies. You'll want to approach directly, something that Rider just isn't used too.
Cairne will likely get the first KO, either hitting you with the sweetspot of his Up Smash as you try to approach his pit, or stomping you if you do get into it. You'll likely be going for your Up Tilt or Up Special for your KO back, as you can aim your Up Special into his pit to hit a wide angle, or whack him with your Up Tilt after dodging one of his many high-end lag moves.
That's when the game really kicks up. Now its a race with his reincarnation timer. Rider can suicide KO without too much trouble, so that's what you'll be going for. Doing it however is going to be a difficult job. You'll have a hard time hitting him when he's in the pit, so you'll have to lure him out with your Down Smash, or play aggressive and try to hit with it at point blank. Cairne won't have too hard of a time stalling against you in his pit, as his Down Smash renders him immune to your Side Special still.
If you do manage to get him chained with enough time left on the clock, use your Up Smash or Back Aerial to get him around offstage and Up Aerial to try to hurl him to his death. His recovery is right amazing with his ability to recovery no matter what using his back aerial, meaning this is still going to be hard, especially since he'll still be shaking the control stick when he's switching from one direction to the other, so he can break free eventually. Aim to throw him with your Up Aerial the moment he rises above you and bring him down with you.
If you fail to suicide KO him in time, you have a very very hard fight ahead of you. Assuming you got some damage on him, you'll have to go with your standard KOs again. It's not too terrible; his normal defensive maneuvers don't work as well with your range, and you can rack damage on him pretty fast with your chaingrab if you hit with it, but Rider is going to have a hard time getting that KO, especially if she ends up dying when she tries the suicide KO and Cairne lives.
Even with all of Cairne's stalling and recovery tecnhiqes though, two minutes is a fairly long time, and Rider has a good chance at getting that KO if she can. This match can end up going either way though, its nobody's shoe-in for victory.
Final Result: 55 / 45 Rider's Favor
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 625
Stan the Bug Man
He seemed a little underpowered to me, unless I missed something. The fact that the opponent cannot see what he is doing, does not take away from his low stats and weak lag on many moves (notably his KO moves). Otherwise, though, this is another set I've always wanted to see created, and this was definitely a good attempt at him. The ice mechanic was cool, and the mist itself was a good stand-alone idea, I just felt he could have still been a little stronger overall.
He seemed a little underpowered to me, unless I missed something. The fact that the opponent cannot see what he is doing, does not take away from his low stats and weak lag on many moves (notably his KO moves). Otherwise, though, this is another set I've always wanted to see created, and this was definitely a good attempt at him. The ice mechanic was cool, and the mist itself was a good stand-alone idea, I just felt he could have still been a little stronger overall.
emergency
Smash Journeyman
Now, presenting....
This is a review center for me, as I will be trying to do reviews for sets from here on out. These won't be official ones given like the Sandbag members on the Stadium. But just a member review.
This is a review center for me, as I will be trying to do reviews for sets from here on out. These won't be official ones given like the Sandbag members on the Stadium. But just a member review.
Kupa, Stanley has been review just now. So check it out, if you want...
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,911
ABRAyouknowidliketocommentthisbutyouneedtoreadmoarmanganoobyouknowidliketocommentthisbutyouneedtoreadmoarmanganoob
STANLEY THE BUGMAN
Seeing the summaries and such Stan sounded like a fairly bland camper/trapper, but instead he distinguishes himself by having relatively few traps and centering around his mist clouds, a large expansion off of Jafar’s concept. He still very much flows with all the moves to get foes into the mist cloud, but all the ways he can take advantage of being masked by it are really great stuff. Certainly a more interesting playstyle concept then something like Zinger or Fat Bastard. Also a fan of how you –subtly- encourage him to mix things up.
The only thing I don’t particularly like is how much and how long he goes through the standard trap setting phase, and even once it’s set up he’s not all that at getting the damage he needs for those KOs, and while his KOs won’t be that hard to get with the proper percentage if he has mist clouds the KO moves KO pretty high. If you lowered the KO percents, though, Stanley would start turning into a slow power character, which really doesn’t fit him. Perhaps buff damage percents? Lol meaningless number tweaking balance.
Seriously though, he’s a very fine set. Definitely one of my favorites of yours.
RIDER
. . .So why don’t we like the whole set being a playstyle section again? It gets you your yu neek orgy nations you people so crave and essentially turns the whole set into the best part. It still ultimately has a “technical” playstyle section at the end where it goes on a while without introducing any new moves. There’s nothing at all wrong with this organization and I’m perfectly fine with the moves being out of order – it certainly makes more sense here thanks to all the move interactions then with Doppelori who people didn’t mind nearly as much as this.
The actual problem is the writing style. While the aerials are actually playstyle relevant and the chain-based gimping complements her considerably, the way how you glaze over them so quickly and make them the last button inputs in the set can certainly make them feel rushed. There’s also some generally awkward writing in the set which is the only thing that really hurts it. The mechanic introduced before fsmash and usmash is fine where it is, it could just be better described.
But the set certainly isn’t as much of a puzzle to understand as a lot of other sets out there and it’s certainly worth riding out the “storm”, if it can be called that. Rider finds a nice balance of being more versatile then Morton but less-so then Spadefox while still flowing all the while, and is able to swap between her interactions seamlessly, going back and forth and again while not going out of her way to do it. If nothing else, near everything is linked in by chain length somehow. More importantly, this set contains some of the best match-ups I’ve seen.
CIRNO
Why did I take so long to read this? It’s very rare for me to go back and read an old set that I passed that’s being praised by the likes of Rool and Junahu. Predator is next. I’m far from as crazy over is as they are, but it was certainly an enjoyable experience. Writing style is obvious even without you delving into humor, it certainly makes the set a page turner. There’s some good stuff going on with the campyness and the interaction with the Ice Field, no questions asked.
I’m less a fan of the generic combo moves that don’t seem to contribute much of anything. Just there, really, and they don’t even do that good of a job of comboing as you admit. Lots of awkward irrelevant button inputs, some not even meant for comboing like the utilt and throws. Still, certainly flows better then I expected regardless and I do very much like the camping aspects of her game, those specials are absolutely spectacular. I just wanna know what I’m missing that everybody is fapping to aside from the loli aspects.
Obligatory nitpick: You say that standard heavyweights are what kill Cirno best in the playstyle, then go on to give Cirno a 70/30 match-up against Bowser with there being little other reasoning then him being a standard heavyweight.
STANLEY THE BUGMAN
Seeing the summaries and such Stan sounded like a fairly bland camper/trapper, but instead he distinguishes himself by having relatively few traps and centering around his mist clouds, a large expansion off of Jafar’s concept. He still very much flows with all the moves to get foes into the mist cloud, but all the ways he can take advantage of being masked by it are really great stuff. Certainly a more interesting playstyle concept then something like Zinger or Fat Bastard. Also a fan of how you –subtly- encourage him to mix things up.
The only thing I don’t particularly like is how much and how long he goes through the standard trap setting phase, and even once it’s set up he’s not all that at getting the damage he needs for those KOs, and while his KOs won’t be that hard to get with the proper percentage if he has mist clouds the KO moves KO pretty high. If you lowered the KO percents, though, Stanley would start turning into a slow power character, which really doesn’t fit him. Perhaps buff damage percents? Lol meaningless number tweaking balance.
Seriously though, he’s a very fine set. Definitely one of my favorites of yours.
RIDER
. . .So why don’t we like the whole set being a playstyle section again? It gets you your yu neek orgy nations you people so crave and essentially turns the whole set into the best part. It still ultimately has a “technical” playstyle section at the end where it goes on a while without introducing any new moves. There’s nothing at all wrong with this organization and I’m perfectly fine with the moves being out of order – it certainly makes more sense here thanks to all the move interactions then with Doppelori who people didn’t mind nearly as much as this.
The actual problem is the writing style. While the aerials are actually playstyle relevant and the chain-based gimping complements her considerably, the way how you glaze over them so quickly and make them the last button inputs in the set can certainly make them feel rushed. There’s also some generally awkward writing in the set which is the only thing that really hurts it. The mechanic introduced before fsmash and usmash is fine where it is, it could just be better described.
But the set certainly isn’t as much of a puzzle to understand as a lot of other sets out there and it’s certainly worth riding out the “storm”, if it can be called that. Rider finds a nice balance of being more versatile then Morton but less-so then Spadefox while still flowing all the while, and is able to swap between her interactions seamlessly, going back and forth and again while not going out of her way to do it. If nothing else, near everything is linked in by chain length somehow. More importantly, this set contains some of the best match-ups I’ve seen.
CIRNO
Why did I take so long to read this? It’s very rare for me to go back and read an old set that I passed that’s being praised by the likes of Rool and Junahu. Predator is next. I’m far from as crazy over is as they are, but it was certainly an enjoyable experience. Writing style is obvious even without you delving into humor, it certainly makes the set a page turner. There’s some good stuff going on with the campyness and the interaction with the Ice Field, no questions asked.
I’m less a fan of the generic combo moves that don’t seem to contribute much of anything. Just there, really, and they don’t even do that good of a job of comboing as you admit. Lots of awkward irrelevant button inputs, some not even meant for comboing like the utilt and throws. Still, certainly flows better then I expected regardless and I do very much like the camping aspects of her game, those specials are absolutely spectacular. I just wanna know what I’m missing that everybody is fapping to aside from the loli aspects.
Obligatory nitpick: You say that standard heavyweights are what kill Cirno best in the playstyle, then go on to give Cirno a 70/30 match-up against Bowser with there being little other reasoning then him being a standard heavyweight.
Junahu
Smash Ace
Rider: The writing style is a huge barrier to this set. It is, to be blunt, a wall of text where the lines between attacks are so blurred and jumbled together that certain overarching aspects of it become unintelligible. Considering how much of a bold new frontier this set is spearheading, writing the attacks in the exact same tone and detail as you've always have is disasterous in the end. Long droning paragraphs literally cry out for some humour and a consistant, unbroken narrative
Big shame too, because the set itself is brilliant and inspired. Once I solved the puzzle box that was the writing I found it well thought out, intuitive (mostly) and, of course, fun.
Rider can apparantly drag her foe around unimpeded. If she can drag the foe offstage without resistance and negate their recoveries by token of the same ability, then how is a suicide KO at all difficult? Or a regular gimp for that matter? Chain-Jump off- dangle the foe below the bottom blastline-win.
Playstyle sections should not be giant. It detracts from the whole point of including them
Big shame too, because the set itself is brilliant and inspired. Once I solved the puzzle box that was the writing I found it well thought out, intuitive (mostly) and, of course, fun.
Rider can apparantly drag her foe around unimpeded. If she can drag the foe offstage without resistance and negate their recoveries by token of the same ability, then how is a suicide KO at all difficult? Or a regular gimp for that matter? Chain-Jump off- dangle the foe below the bottom blastline-win.
Is knowing the knockback growth even neccessary when we know the KO percent?
Playstyle sections should not be giant. It detracts from the whole point of including them
KingK.Rool
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 1,810
It's been a week, and we've progressed exactly one post shy of two pages. That's gotta be a new record, or something. Funny thing, too, because the chat was a veritable hive of activity.
Anyway, back to catching up, slowly but surely...
Next on the list is Bully, with both Clay and Hunter J haunting me from the past. I'm almost entirely caught up, though! Isn't that wonderful?
Anyway, back to catching up, slowly but surely...
Rena: You know, I always find it hard to really get into your more random anime movesets, Silver - maybe because they're usually so weird - and this one is no exception. I'm quite certain that it's overdetailed and that continuously pointing out how this attack or that is generic is not a very good idea. I also reckon the playstyle has been done a few too many times. The character who switches from damage racker to KO creature? Even I did that once. Wait, twice, I always forget Ax Knight. :embarrass
Dodongo: Oh, I love this set. It's loaded with little comedic gems that result from using Dodongo's own voice (explaining how he uses his brother as a trap and then saying "Dodongo sad for brother", for one). It's tons of fun to read from start to finish, a true experience, never grows dull or repetitive. Organization over detail? (Y)(Y)
The playstyle is fairly simplistic, but I always say we need more regular, standard-duty aggressive heavyweights in MYM. Dodongo fills that niche beautifully. Well done, Khold - even with a quasi-joke set, you pull it off.
Nero: Both points of view on this set are already out there; I tend to prefer this one to Dante, actually. Sure, it's a combo character, but the Exceed submechanic and the use of his Side Special to keep momentum make him fairly interesting. That said, I'm expecting even more from... you know, that guy with the long, grandiose-sounding name who you're making next.
Cairne: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then we skip over Abra, my own set...
Spadefox Remake: It's a remake, not a remix, I say! Remix implies that it's a shuffled-around version of the same set, and this is clearly an altogether different set. Thank god for that. I must be one of about three people who didn't at least vote Spadefox, so I get to point and say "I told you so" to the rest of MYM who didn't realize how weak that set was until you started going on about it. Wheel Gator destroys Spadefox.
As for the actual remake, it's immensely better. Still insane with creativity, but in this case it's all very tight and focused on a few core concepts - teleportation, scythe, tentacles, Mitternacht, that's about it. The playstyle is blatantly and clearly there, and very much unique. I do think the set is almost too complex to be feasible for Smash - most of these attacks, one would need to play around with for hours to not only learn their tricks and secrets but also when best to use them - but hey, it's MYM! And on the whole, it's a fantastic specimen, this. Everything the original was not.
I'm going to jump Hunter J for now, because I'll be reviewing him in all likelihood - and yes, that will be before this time next week!
And now, for a very old set that's been a long time coming:
Shikamaru: Now, from what I remember from Naruto, they should move right if you move left. Aren't they supposed to behave like your mirror image? I understand that that would make it much trickier to get a KO with this attack, though.
Anyway, this set would be bloody fun to play. You sold me on it as soon as you suggested running your shadow under the stage, actually. There are little details here and there that get confusing - how and why you'd grab your own shuriken with a Shadow Stitching, for example, and what exactly the point of attaching a string to your kunai before throwing it is - but, like all of your sets, it's a jigsaw puzzle. No wasted move inputs, everything lends itself toward that playstyle. It's the quintessential agi set, and seems to be a spot-on fit for the character. You can't just wildly attack - you have to think several moves in advance if you're going to catch them in a Shadow Possession. Wouldn't really work in FFA, let alone something like the SSE, but it sounds like barrels of fun in a serious match.
Dodongo: Oh, I love this set. It's loaded with little comedic gems that result from using Dodongo's own voice (explaining how he uses his brother as a trap and then saying "Dodongo sad for brother", for one). It's tons of fun to read from start to finish, a true experience, never grows dull or repetitive. Organization over detail? (Y)(Y)
The playstyle is fairly simplistic, but I always say we need more regular, standard-duty aggressive heavyweights in MYM. Dodongo fills that niche beautifully. Well done, Khold - even with a quasi-joke set, you pull it off.
Nero: Both points of view on this set are already out there; I tend to prefer this one to Dante, actually. Sure, it's a combo character, but the Exceed submechanic and the use of his Side Special to keep momentum make him fairly interesting. That said, I'm expecting even more from... you know, that guy with the long, grandiose-sounding name who you're making next.
Cairne: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then we skip over Abra, my own set...
Spadefox Remake: It's a remake, not a remix, I say! Remix implies that it's a shuffled-around version of the same set, and this is clearly an altogether different set. Thank god for that. I must be one of about three people who didn't at least vote Spadefox, so I get to point and say "I told you so" to the rest of MYM who didn't realize how weak that set was until you started going on about it. Wheel Gator destroys Spadefox.
As for the actual remake, it's immensely better. Still insane with creativity, but in this case it's all very tight and focused on a few core concepts - teleportation, scythe, tentacles, Mitternacht, that's about it. The playstyle is blatantly and clearly there, and very much unique. I do think the set is almost too complex to be feasible for Smash - most of these attacks, one would need to play around with for hours to not only learn their tricks and secrets but also when best to use them - but hey, it's MYM! And on the whole, it's a fantastic specimen, this. Everything the original was not.
I'm going to jump Hunter J for now, because I'll be reviewing him in all likelihood - and yes, that will be before this time next week!
And now, for a very old set that's been a long time coming:
Shikamaru: Now, from what I remember from Naruto, they should move right if you move left. Aren't they supposed to behave like your mirror image? I understand that that would make it much trickier to get a KO with this attack, though.
Anyway, this set would be bloody fun to play. You sold me on it as soon as you suggested running your shadow under the stage, actually. There are little details here and there that get confusing - how and why you'd grab your own shuriken with a Shadow Stitching, for example, and what exactly the point of attaching a string to your kunai before throwing it is - but, like all of your sets, it's a jigsaw puzzle. No wasted move inputs, everything lends itself toward that playstyle. It's the quintessential agi set, and seems to be a spot-on fit for the character. You can't just wildly attack - you have to think several moves in advance if you're going to catch them in a Shadow Possession. Wouldn't really work in FFA, let alone something like the SSE, but it sounds like barrels of fun in a serious match.
Next on the list is Bully, with both Clay and Hunter J haunting me from the past. I'm almost entirely caught up, though! Isn't that wonderful?
Kholdstare
Nightmare Weaver
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2008
- Messages
- 1,441
Thanks for the comment, droogy, I'm glad you like it. (H)
Also, why are you reviewing Hunter J when Warlord already reviewed her?
Also, why are you reviewing Hunter J when Warlord already reviewed her?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yes, this is a semi-return of Smady’s catch-up sessions. Whodafunkit, a teenager being lazy for a prolonged period of time in pursuit of shenanigans unrelated to work and more related to mischief? Pure craziness! And so, we move on to some random requested movesets [which are free for anyone to request in the chat, private messages or anywhere, really – I’ll do it, no questions] and some of those which came out a little while ago [god, am I behind].
So, without further ado…
(Zinger and Mumbo Jumbo delayed until next year.)
And that's it for this time, tune in next time for Zinger [who stumped this ketchup for a week] and more.
So, without further ado…
(Zinger and Mumbo Jumbo delayed until next year.)
MasterWarlord makes a big deal about this moveset not being a heavyweight and female, but honestly, he isn’t alone in having only male heavies, the latter being less pronounced for him than I figure. Male characters are dominant amongst all submissions because the predominant MYMers are, unsurprisingly, male. MYM is a sausage-fest. Anyway, enough of that nonsense – Lucy is MW’s first moveset of the contest and generally, that is not good and lets get right to it, as this comment is late.
Firstly, the organisation is really generic and the whole invisible text gimmick, while amusing, is really quite irritating when trying to read through the entire thing. They basically operate as brackets, so use brackets. Having to highlight every badly-hidden gap in your text, only find an unrelated quip did not stop me from considering that, maybe, this time, there would be something interesting hidden there – you’re doing it wrong, Warlord. I was also a little baffled by the total lack of images considering an entire anime series is based around this character, akin to those terrible Naruto movesets.
In terms of writing style, I must comment that even from the second move, you start to display some keen idiocy on ‘space,’ as I put it in the chatroom.
“If you use this on a solid wall (Such as another vector) or drop-through platform, Lucy will start swinging around the wall. The angle she swings at is based on what angle she latches onto the wall/platform.”
Swinging around the wall – does this mean, vertically, horizontally, diagonally? The last sentence is the worst part, as if by this point you thought that the reader would be on-board with you. Honestly, this movesets lack clarity and is very confusing with all the vector variables – with such a complicated mechanic that has no mechanic section, you do not go the suitable amount to elaborate how they work, which is a fundamental flaw. I would highlight further mistake, but it is quite difficult to explain this problem with your writing style – taking into account that I may just be confused. Alas, this kind of mistake was present a lot in Count too: so it’s certainly a recurring problem that you have bad grammar, with your more complex movesets, at least.
Playstyle is not very good either. The idea of creating this ‘fortress’ is fresh, but it becomes gimmicky when every move uses an invisible arm – I would also like to agree with your comments on perceived criticism of Lucy as out-of-character here, as she is, extremely. In the anime, Lucy is all kinds of messed up, which is never touched upon here – in Count, we saw all the disgusting nature of the beast: the sadistic personality, the consumption and mind control. Lucy is, by comparison, censored – one must wonder what an ambivalent reader would think of this character, solely from this moveset and how completely wrong the conclusion of coming would be.
While this comment may sound extremely negative, I do enjoy seeing Lucy in MYM, in any form. It certainly brought back a rushing geyser of nostalgia when I heard you were doing this – thanks for that.
So, Strangelove – I’ve been looking forward to reading this through more thoroughly given the fantastic source material and the feedback it has gotten. In terms of accuracy, I would say everything seems spot on, bar the good [or bad] doctor himself; I hope you realise his hand is not alien, but freaking out all the time because he’s restraining himself from giving the roman salute. Also, as others have noted, Dr. Strangelove is pretty much forgotten here as a character and could be replaced with anyone from the film, so as much as I like seeing him as a representative of a great film, I’m disappointed that much of his personality is lost.
Edit: Apparently “alien hand” is a medical condition, but one which is at least not used popularly in the United Kingdom. Bah.
On the other hand, the theme of the cold war is devotedly kept to throughout the moveset and much of the language used is both appropriate and amusing. Moves such as ‘stockpile’ and ‘bomb shelter’ are brilliant – the doomsday device’s chain reaction complex is a splendid idea and ties in with the events of the film, where indeed one nuclear bomb is said to trigger said device. It’s all very inventive.
The hand misunderstanding being a prime example, however, your writing style is not always perfect. The amount of answered questions is more than a little worrying, with every other move having a Kupaian, “you think that’s it? But wait, there’s more!” taking up needless amounts of space. There are a couple of times when you generally confused me, like with the forward tilt:
“This move has no animation but can be held for anywhere from half to two seconds; there's ending lag varying from .2 to .6 of a second depending on how long this was held.”
How does one hold a tilt and not have it become a smash? Also, by ending lag you mean on the animation of nothing happening? Right – this becomes lots more confusing with the next snippet added.
“While Strangelove is holding this, no effect is immediately obvious, but his Doomsday Device is completely invulnerable to damage and will not detonate as long as this is held.”
Is there any indication of him ‘holding this?’ I suppose it’s all mindgames with the move here, but you should really write that. This is a constant problem – you stating the rhetorical, rather than the literal meaning of one of your moves. ‘You think it’s a chaingrab? Well, in the middle of it, you can expect to have hi-jinx when your character grabs indefinitely!’ Quipping is sometimes best left to the story modes and joke movesets, or at its best, used discretely. The humour in this moveset does not match the film at all, which is actually a little odd.
The moveset itself is something special. I do love the whole chain reaction business and all the various ways to affect it, with very many important, ultra-useful moves thrown in there that effect the playstyle in positive ways. I felt like maybe you skimped a bit on the playstyle section itself, though, as a full ‘combo’ section similar to King Hippo’s would have been very warranted, or at least a more in-depth look at actual set-ups could or should be used by a player. Not to put a damper on all the crafty workings, as it is great and a truly-inspired look on traps, although it’s no game changer – it only goes as far as to masterfully perform what we all know and love / loath about the trap genre.
One crying negative is definitely the random moves like the grabs and moves involving guns. As these don’t directly attack the opponent – a missing piece in the puzzle here – I don’t see their use, except in convoluting a perfectly fine playstyle. The fear is that these seemingly-complex chain reactions are just a mess, as you don’t go to any length to explain how they work, you really only explain detonation times and such variables. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt – you should give more re-assurance in the future, rather than pandering to the reader’s assumptions that yes, these move reactions will work perfectly.
Quickly, on organisation, it’s a template. Yep, nothing special about it at all – I think I’ve seen this one a lot too, which isn’t good, yet it doesn’t detract from an easily-readable and quality moveset.
Compared to Dead Hand, I’d say this is certainly far better in terms of playstyle, but not as thematically-pleasant. Say if this was a Bomberman or Grenade Man moveset, it would be extremely suitable, but it’s all somewhat generic and misses the point of the film entirely. Sure, it ties in with nuclear bombs and the cold war, but this could just as easily be a Fallout moveset. It’s more than a little divisive in my mind, but altogether, an extremely strong set. Good work, Wiz.
So, unto Saber, whose ‘invisible sword’ (not) seen in her header image is really quite jarring to look upon. They should have at least given it a translucent tint or visible hilt, so she isn’t grasping thin air. What’s with all the invisible retardedness this contest, anyway?
Wait, so her sword is invisible this whole time? What a massive mind fudge, as one could not even see the range of Saber’s sword unless practicing with the character constantly. In fact, it’s odd that her sword is invisible when his moveset is pretty much your standard swordfighter – you may as well have Marth, Ike or Roy with an invisible sword, it would have the same consequences. Perhaps I have brooded too long on this, but it doesn’t sound like a great idea in the slightest.
In all, this moveset’s strength lies in its playstyle. It’s simple, approachable and grounded, which cannot be said about most. You have a subtlety with the moves here and succeed in creating a set that lacks in much creative thought, yet is well-thought out. However, I would criticise it as really being a ‘nothing moveset,’ as in it doesn’t accomplish anything new at all and also is entirely compromised of boring slash-type moves that are almost distracting.
I like the playstyle extracts after each section – very reminiscent of Junahu’s stuff. In a way, this feels like a core Junahu moveset, but without the stellar images that help imagine it, leaving a blargon of numbers, statistics, repeated animations and little much else – it’s easily skimmed, if you catch my drift. Meh.
Organisation is pretty standard, but as with much of this set, what it does safely it does well. It’s nothing profound; needs more images, unlike Subaru.
Good effort, Darthie.
Ah, Dante, a set that I pay tribute to with my ‘ketchup’ image up there – I’m so glad you changed the layout. Although, I still feel your images are a little dorky – white orb lack backgrounds still intact, no addition to the source to make them tie-in with the moveset: they feel obtuse amongst the set’s features.
Heading further into the moveset, there are unfortunately some serious problems, but none that can’t be resolved. For one thing, I have no idea how all these weapons work – are they intrusive, or do they stack? Do they affect Dante’s weight or statistics at all? It’s also kind of confusing when combined with the images that the text seems to not point to an obvious transformation of Dante, if at all – one would see a picture of ‘Devil’ Dante – or whatever it is – and think immediately that the moves includes this, but it obviously doesn’t.
Dante’s strength is his weakness, in that his playstyle is entirely disjointed. He has an array of weaponry that is equipped with different moves, creating an opportunity for unpredictability, but it isn’t explained well enough to be a substantial new turn for such ‘spider diagram playstyles.’ [*wink wink*] I do love that there at least some combos thrown into the playstyle, but there should be more. I suppose congratulations are also in order for including so many weapons – indeed, this moveset is a good amalgamation of what is Devil May Cry.
In all, though, this is blatantly not up to the current standard. Chris, your writing style just doesn’t cut it anymore – you need to brush up on the current lingo a bit more, read through more movesets and try to replicate what is good about those styles. Yours is not different as much as it is simply lacking. The moves themselves - while coming together to form a rather sporadic playstyle - are not deep or effectual in any way. There are practically no move interactions, for example, which one would expect from a character that uses so many different types of weapons.
So yeah, again, good effort, yet you can definitely improve.
So, two of Daniel’s movesets in one catch-up – something tells me this has happened before. Anyway, with ‘Kel’ I am apparently not walking into a booby trap like Lucy [har har, she has boobies, you see], so lets jump right into it.
It is rather competent in terms of playstyle and far better than Lucy, I’ll give you that. The way you weave this mildly-complex style with an invincibility flaw that makes Kel seem to play alternately to the rest of the Smash roster is very interesting, though some of the moves do go off on their own tangent – even if then joined by one or two others, they don’t really tie in with the main mana shield / ghoul thing. A good example is the abomination, which just kind of ‘does its thing,’ as you put. The meat wagon also seems fairly useless.
This is where the playstyle is lacking, where certain moves that cause damage indeterminate of variables in the current match, or reach infinitely across the stage [copy pasta from Hades] – this moveset would be a hundred times more profound if it were more focused.
I found the organisation to be pretty decent considering how terrible you’ve had it in the past – invisi-text for Lucy, same FMA template used about four times – but it’s by no means perfect. What I did love about this moveset was the image placement, especially in connection to your ‘fiends idea,’ as unsubstantiated as it is.
Your writing style is, at times, somewhat confusing here, due to your apparent hatred of including any details at all. Apparently a move’s most important attribute is how comparable it is lag-wise to Dedede’s down smash, but not how conducive it is toward the playstyle, leaving the move as two lines of minor details and a line of ‘humour.’ The latter of which you really need to tone down when going for shortened writing – it makes the set appear sloppy when the most crucial move in the entire set ends with a personal comment on how everyone’s ********.
What is weakest, though, is that for a summon moveset, you have practically no options. It seems that this obsession with ‘flowchart playstyles’ has stinted your mind somewhat in relation to subjectively rating your own movesets, as this one is by far the most lopsided – mainly due to the lack of summons. It’s an odd concoction and one of the more original parts of this moveset that you only really summon a few creatures and do much of the offensive yourself, although with little actual contact. It’s also true that this forcing of your opponent to play by your few options hardly sounds like a barrel of laughs, particularly with the one game-breaking, hits-everyone-on-the-screen move that has practically no animation or point beyond mana consumption and MK-level cheapness.
So, much better than Lucy, perhaps even better than The Count, but not as good as Sloth, I’m afraid. He’s still my favourite, and you’re still my favourite Daniel. (goo)
Keep up the splendid work, good chum.
Firstly, the organisation is really generic and the whole invisible text gimmick, while amusing, is really quite irritating when trying to read through the entire thing. They basically operate as brackets, so use brackets. Having to highlight every badly-hidden gap in your text, only find an unrelated quip did not stop me from considering that, maybe, this time, there would be something interesting hidden there – you’re doing it wrong, Warlord. I was also a little baffled by the total lack of images considering an entire anime series is based around this character, akin to those terrible Naruto movesets.
In terms of writing style, I must comment that even from the second move, you start to display some keen idiocy on ‘space,’ as I put it in the chatroom.
“If you use this on a solid wall (Such as another vector) or drop-through platform, Lucy will start swinging around the wall. The angle she swings at is based on what angle she latches onto the wall/platform.”
Swinging around the wall – does this mean, vertically, horizontally, diagonally? The last sentence is the worst part, as if by this point you thought that the reader would be on-board with you. Honestly, this movesets lack clarity and is very confusing with all the vector variables – with such a complicated mechanic that has no mechanic section, you do not go the suitable amount to elaborate how they work, which is a fundamental flaw. I would highlight further mistake, but it is quite difficult to explain this problem with your writing style – taking into account that I may just be confused. Alas, this kind of mistake was present a lot in Count too: so it’s certainly a recurring problem that you have bad grammar, with your more complex movesets, at least.
Playstyle is not very good either. The idea of creating this ‘fortress’ is fresh, but it becomes gimmicky when every move uses an invisible arm – I would also like to agree with your comments on perceived criticism of Lucy as out-of-character here, as she is, extremely. In the anime, Lucy is all kinds of messed up, which is never touched upon here – in Count, we saw all the disgusting nature of the beast: the sadistic personality, the consumption and mind control. Lucy is, by comparison, censored – one must wonder what an ambivalent reader would think of this character, solely from this moveset and how completely wrong the conclusion of coming would be.
While this comment may sound extremely negative, I do enjoy seeing Lucy in MYM, in any form. It certainly brought back a rushing geyser of nostalgia when I heard you were doing this – thanks for that.
==============
So, Strangelove – I’ve been looking forward to reading this through more thoroughly given the fantastic source material and the feedback it has gotten. In terms of accuracy, I would say everything seems spot on, bar the good [or bad] doctor himself; I hope you realise his hand is not alien, but freaking out all the time because he’s restraining himself from giving the roman salute. Also, as others have noted, Dr. Strangelove is pretty much forgotten here as a character and could be replaced with anyone from the film, so as much as I like seeing him as a representative of a great film, I’m disappointed that much of his personality is lost.
Edit: Apparently “alien hand” is a medical condition, but one which is at least not used popularly in the United Kingdom. Bah.
On the other hand, the theme of the cold war is devotedly kept to throughout the moveset and much of the language used is both appropriate and amusing. Moves such as ‘stockpile’ and ‘bomb shelter’ are brilliant – the doomsday device’s chain reaction complex is a splendid idea and ties in with the events of the film, where indeed one nuclear bomb is said to trigger said device. It’s all very inventive.
The hand misunderstanding being a prime example, however, your writing style is not always perfect. The amount of answered questions is more than a little worrying, with every other move having a Kupaian, “you think that’s it? But wait, there’s more!” taking up needless amounts of space. There are a couple of times when you generally confused me, like with the forward tilt:
“This move has no animation but can be held for anywhere from half to two seconds; there's ending lag varying from .2 to .6 of a second depending on how long this was held.”
How does one hold a tilt and not have it become a smash? Also, by ending lag you mean on the animation of nothing happening? Right – this becomes lots more confusing with the next snippet added.
“While Strangelove is holding this, no effect is immediately obvious, but his Doomsday Device is completely invulnerable to damage and will not detonate as long as this is held.”
Is there any indication of him ‘holding this?’ I suppose it’s all mindgames with the move here, but you should really write that. This is a constant problem – you stating the rhetorical, rather than the literal meaning of one of your moves. ‘You think it’s a chaingrab? Well, in the middle of it, you can expect to have hi-jinx when your character grabs indefinitely!’ Quipping is sometimes best left to the story modes and joke movesets, or at its best, used discretely. The humour in this moveset does not match the film at all, which is actually a little odd.
The moveset itself is something special. I do love the whole chain reaction business and all the various ways to affect it, with very many important, ultra-useful moves thrown in there that effect the playstyle in positive ways. I felt like maybe you skimped a bit on the playstyle section itself, though, as a full ‘combo’ section similar to King Hippo’s would have been very warranted, or at least a more in-depth look at actual set-ups could or should be used by a player. Not to put a damper on all the crafty workings, as it is great and a truly-inspired look on traps, although it’s no game changer – it only goes as far as to masterfully perform what we all know and love / loath about the trap genre.
One crying negative is definitely the random moves like the grabs and moves involving guns. As these don’t directly attack the opponent – a missing piece in the puzzle here – I don’t see their use, except in convoluting a perfectly fine playstyle. The fear is that these seemingly-complex chain reactions are just a mess, as you don’t go to any length to explain how they work, you really only explain detonation times and such variables. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt – you should give more re-assurance in the future, rather than pandering to the reader’s assumptions that yes, these move reactions will work perfectly.
Quickly, on organisation, it’s a template. Yep, nothing special about it at all – I think I’ve seen this one a lot too, which isn’t good, yet it doesn’t detract from an easily-readable and quality moveset.
Compared to Dead Hand, I’d say this is certainly far better in terms of playstyle, but not as thematically-pleasant. Say if this was a Bomberman or Grenade Man moveset, it would be extremely suitable, but it’s all somewhat generic and misses the point of the film entirely. Sure, it ties in with nuclear bombs and the cold war, but this could just as easily be a Fallout moveset. It’s more than a little divisive in my mind, but altogether, an extremely strong set. Good work, Wiz.
===========
So, unto Saber, whose ‘invisible sword’ (not) seen in her header image is really quite jarring to look upon. They should have at least given it a translucent tint or visible hilt, so she isn’t grasping thin air. What’s with all the invisible retardedness this contest, anyway?
Wait, so her sword is invisible this whole time? What a massive mind fudge, as one could not even see the range of Saber’s sword unless practicing with the character constantly. In fact, it’s odd that her sword is invisible when his moveset is pretty much your standard swordfighter – you may as well have Marth, Ike or Roy with an invisible sword, it would have the same consequences. Perhaps I have brooded too long on this, but it doesn’t sound like a great idea in the slightest.
In all, this moveset’s strength lies in its playstyle. It’s simple, approachable and grounded, which cannot be said about most. You have a subtlety with the moves here and succeed in creating a set that lacks in much creative thought, yet is well-thought out. However, I would criticise it as really being a ‘nothing moveset,’ as in it doesn’t accomplish anything new at all and also is entirely compromised of boring slash-type moves that are almost distracting.
I like the playstyle extracts after each section – very reminiscent of Junahu’s stuff. In a way, this feels like a core Junahu moveset, but without the stellar images that help imagine it, leaving a blargon of numbers, statistics, repeated animations and little much else – it’s easily skimmed, if you catch my drift. Meh.
Organisation is pretty standard, but as with much of this set, what it does safely it does well. It’s nothing profound; needs more images, unlike Subaru.
Good effort, Darthie.
========
Ah, Dante, a set that I pay tribute to with my ‘ketchup’ image up there – I’m so glad you changed the layout. Although, I still feel your images are a little dorky – white orb lack backgrounds still intact, no addition to the source to make them tie-in with the moveset: they feel obtuse amongst the set’s features.
Heading further into the moveset, there are unfortunately some serious problems, but none that can’t be resolved. For one thing, I have no idea how all these weapons work – are they intrusive, or do they stack? Do they affect Dante’s weight or statistics at all? It’s also kind of confusing when combined with the images that the text seems to not point to an obvious transformation of Dante, if at all – one would see a picture of ‘Devil’ Dante – or whatever it is – and think immediately that the moves includes this, but it obviously doesn’t.
Dante’s strength is his weakness, in that his playstyle is entirely disjointed. He has an array of weaponry that is equipped with different moves, creating an opportunity for unpredictability, but it isn’t explained well enough to be a substantial new turn for such ‘spider diagram playstyles.’ [*wink wink*] I do love that there at least some combos thrown into the playstyle, but there should be more. I suppose congratulations are also in order for including so many weapons – indeed, this moveset is a good amalgamation of what is Devil May Cry.
In all, though, this is blatantly not up to the current standard. Chris, your writing style just doesn’t cut it anymore – you need to brush up on the current lingo a bit more, read through more movesets and try to replicate what is good about those styles. Yours is not different as much as it is simply lacking. The moves themselves - while coming together to form a rather sporadic playstyle - are not deep or effectual in any way. There are practically no move interactions, for example, which one would expect from a character that uses so many different types of weapons.
So yeah, again, good effort, yet you can definitely improve.
======
So, two of Daniel’s movesets in one catch-up – something tells me this has happened before. Anyway, with ‘Kel’ I am apparently not walking into a booby trap like Lucy [har har, she has boobies, you see], so lets jump right into it.
It is rather competent in terms of playstyle and far better than Lucy, I’ll give you that. The way you weave this mildly-complex style with an invincibility flaw that makes Kel seem to play alternately to the rest of the Smash roster is very interesting, though some of the moves do go off on their own tangent – even if then joined by one or two others, they don’t really tie in with the main mana shield / ghoul thing. A good example is the abomination, which just kind of ‘does its thing,’ as you put. The meat wagon also seems fairly useless.
This is where the playstyle is lacking, where certain moves that cause damage indeterminate of variables in the current match, or reach infinitely across the stage [copy pasta from Hades] – this moveset would be a hundred times more profound if it were more focused.
I found the organisation to be pretty decent considering how terrible you’ve had it in the past – invisi-text for Lucy, same FMA template used about four times – but it’s by no means perfect. What I did love about this moveset was the image placement, especially in connection to your ‘fiends idea,’ as unsubstantiated as it is.
Your writing style is, at times, somewhat confusing here, due to your apparent hatred of including any details at all. Apparently a move’s most important attribute is how comparable it is lag-wise to Dedede’s down smash, but not how conducive it is toward the playstyle, leaving the move as two lines of minor details and a line of ‘humour.’ The latter of which you really need to tone down when going for shortened writing – it makes the set appear sloppy when the most crucial move in the entire set ends with a personal comment on how everyone’s ********.
What is weakest, though, is that for a summon moveset, you have practically no options. It seems that this obsession with ‘flowchart playstyles’ has stinted your mind somewhat in relation to subjectively rating your own movesets, as this one is by far the most lopsided – mainly due to the lack of summons. It’s an odd concoction and one of the more original parts of this moveset that you only really summon a few creatures and do much of the offensive yourself, although with little actual contact. It’s also true that this forcing of your opponent to play by your few options hardly sounds like a barrel of laughs, particularly with the one game-breaking, hits-everyone-on-the-screen move that has practically no animation or point beyond mana consumption and MK-level cheapness.
So, much better than Lucy, perhaps even better than The Count, but not as good as Sloth, I’m afraid. He’s still my favourite, and you’re still my favourite Daniel. (goo)
Keep up the splendid work, good chum.
And that's it for this time, tune in next time for Zinger [who stumped this ketchup for a week] and more.
Zook
Perpetual Lazy Bum
SABLEYE
Sableye is a Dark/Ghost-typed Pokemon hailing from the Ruby and Saphire games. It digs the ground with sharpened claws to find rocks that it eats. Substances in the eaten rocks crystallize and rise up to the Pokémon's body surface. Sableye was unique in the 3rd generation for its typing; it has the best possible typing in the game, with no weaknesses and 3 immunities.
Unfortunately, Sableye has absolutely horrendous stats. Every single one is far below average, and without an evolution, it doesn't get any better as time goes on. He's a bottom-tier Pokemon for sure.
So how does he manage to stay alive in Super Smash Bros.? Easy: He cheats. Is Sableye damaged beyond all hope? That's alright, he'll just inflict even more damage to himself and dish out to his enemies, too. Is his opponent camping? Okay, he'll just hit him from across the stage with an unavoidable move. (Don't worry, it's not as broken as you think.)
Life isn't easy for Sableye, but he has enough tricks up his sleeve to scratch his way by.
STATS
HEIGHT: 2/10 Standing tall at 1'08", Sableye, simply put, is tiny. The fact that he slouches doesn't make him any bigger.
WEIGHT: 2/10 Sableye's weight is quite proportionate to his height.
POWER: 2/10 Sableye is not powerful. At all. His best kill moves kill at around 140%, and even they have small range.
DAMAGE BUILDING: 10/10 If there's one thing that Sableye truelly excells at, that thing is damage buildng. While most of his moves do <10%, they're very fast, and two of his signature moves (his side-b and his nair) allow him to greatly increase his damage output.
FIRST JUMP: 3/10 Sableye's first jump is rather pitiful, hardly giving him much lift.
SECOND JUMP: 8/10 Much more impressive, Sableye's midair jump creates a small burst of dark energy beneath him and sends the little guy flying.
ATTACK SPEED: 9/10 Nearly all of Sableye's moves come out fast.
GROUND SPEED: 5/10 Sableye isn't Sonic, but his ground movement is decent.
AIR SPEED: 7/10 Sableye's paranormal powers allow him to move through the air with ease and speed.
CROUCH: 10/10 Sableye may ave the best crouch in the game: He turns into a shadow on the ground. All but the lowest attacks miss him.
CRAWL: YES
CRAWL SPEED: 3/10 Sableye's crawl is rather slow.
WALL JUMP: YES
WALL CLING: YES
MOVESET
NUETRAL SPECIAL: SHADOW BALL
Another chargable energy orb move? Well, at least Sableye's acts a little differently. There are 2 different options for this move: a quick sling and a charged orb.
Tapping the special button causes Sableye to sling a small, pulsating Shadow Ball. The orb deals 3% and travels very quick, but causes no knockback.
Holding the special button down charges up the Shadow Ball. After a charge of 1/2 a second, the move can either be stored with the sheild button or launched with the special button. (You can't prematurely store a Shadow Ball.) If used in the general direction of an opponent, the Shadow Ball will home in on them, traveling in a swerving, irratic path towards them. If released away from an opponent, the Shadow Ball seeks out the nearest source of life; usually Sableye, if not his partner or an enemy on the stage.
Anyone hit by a charged Shadow Ball takes 11% and low knockback. Shadow Ball lasts for 5 seconds once released.
Tapping the special button causes Sableye to sling a small, pulsating Shadow Ball. The orb deals 3% and travels very quick, but causes no knockback.
Holding the special button down charges up the Shadow Ball. After a charge of 1/2 a second, the move can either be stored with the sheild button or launched with the special button. (You can't prematurely store a Shadow Ball.) If used in the general direction of an opponent, the Shadow Ball will home in on them, traveling in a swerving, irratic path towards them. If released away from an opponent, the Shadow Ball seeks out the nearest source of life; usually Sableye, if not his partner or an enemy on the stage.
Anyone hit by a charged Shadow Ball takes 11% and low knockback. Shadow Ball lasts for 5 seconds once released.
SIDE SPECIAL: SHADOW CLAW
Sableye's hands glow purple with a negative energy as he grins wickedly, though cringing in pain.
As the Special Button is held down, Sableye's percentage shoots up at a rate of 6% per second. Whats the point of this move? The next time Sableye makes an attack that invloves his claws, Sableye will deal extra damage equal to the damage he inflicted upon himself!
With generally weak killing moves, Shadow Claw may be a necessity for Sableye to get his foes up to his killing range.
UP SPECIAL: PORTAL
Sableye briefly opens up a portal to another dimension, allowing him to teleport about the stage.
When used in the air, a portal to another dimension opens up around Sableye, sucking him in for anywhere between 1/2 a second and 2 seconds (hold the special button to be held in longer). After his time is up, the portal reopens 3 stage builder blocks away from him in one of 8 directions (depending on how you hold the control stick: up, up-left, left, etc.) and dumps him out in a freefall state.
Any opponent touching Sableye at the start of this move is brought along with him for the ride, and also rendered helpless at the end. They also take 2%.
On the ground, this move functions completely differently. Sableye waves his hands in front of him for a a second, and creates a portal directly in front of him. The portal is as tall as 1 and 1/4 Ganondorfs, circular, and reveals swirly clouds of darkness when peered inside. The exit to the portal appears 3 stage builder blocks away from Sableye, and is identical to the other portal.
Anyone and anything who enters either portal is teleported to the other portal immediately, but otherwise remains unchanged. If Squirtle were to crawl halfway through a portal, for example, his tail and lower shell would stick out of one portal, and his head and upper shell would appear out of the other one.
Momentum is consistant between portals. If Captain Falcon punches you through one portal, you were essentially punch'd 3 stage builder blocks further than normal.
If one portal appears in midair, the other portal is treated as a nongrabbable ledge. (Is that even a word?)
The portals have no back side. Anyone who tries to enter a portal from behind is completely unaffected.
DOWN SPECIAL: DISPLACE
Sableye projects his image elsewhere, obscuring his true location.
Upon using this move, Sableye appears to dart a few feet away from him (anywhere from a step up to a Bowser length from him, depending on how long you hold the button). This move does not actually change where Sableye is; instead, he appears to be a few feet away from where he really is. (The actual Sableye becomes invisible.) The mirage sableye moves and attacks exactly like you do, but is intangible. You can still take damage while in invisble.
It can be obvious when you're displaced, though. Ledge grabbing can give you away (Hmm, why is Sableye floating in mid-air away from the ledge...? OH WAIT), so be careful. You can dismiss being displaced by using the down special again.
JAB: SCRATCH
A rather straightforward move, Sableye lashes out infront of him his a clawed hand. This attack comes out fast and fast medium priority, deals 4% damage and little knockback. Use this move to give yourself some breathing room, or to unleash a Shadow Claw.
DASH ATTACK: REVERSE SLASH
Sableye spins around with blinding speed, tearing anyone who tries to chase him to ribbons.
Upon using this move, Sableye turns around and slashes 4 times, twice with each hand. The first 3 hits inflict 2% and no knockback; the final hit deals 5% and high knockback. The entire move lasts 1/2 a second, and is one of Sableye's best killing moves, KO'ing at around 133%. Unfortunately, Sableye's small size and short arms gives this move very low range.
Using this move stops Sableye's forward moment completely, and turns him around.
FORWARD TILT: BITE
Sableye leaps forward (1 stage builder block in length) with his mouth gaping in an attempt to bite them. If the move connects, Sableye deals 7% and low-medium knockback. If it misses, Sableye falls flat on his face and is prone. This attack comes out fast and has high priority.
UP TILT: FRANTIC SLASH
As the name implies, Sableye scratches above him... frantically. He makes 4 quick swipes directly above him, each inflincting 2% and very low knockback. (The final hit has enough knockback to prevent Sableye from chaining multiple Utilts into high percentages, however.)
This attack completely covers the top of Sableye, but leaves much of his sides exposed.
DOWN TILT: CHEAP HIT
Sableye suggests his opponents' shadow to turn on them, causing minor but nearly unavoidable damage.
That's right; you can't avoid this attack. ...Well, that's not entirely true. If you're dodging or otherwise in an invicible state (other than sheilding), this attack fails. After a second-and-a-half long charge up, Sableye convinces his foe's shadow to turn on their owner, causing 2% and flinching, but no knockback.
If you use this attack more than one time in a row, each additional attack will not cause the opponent to flinch.
FORWARD SMASH: SUCKER PUNCH
Sableye throws a punch at his foes with surprising range.
This move is rather unremarkable except for its range and unique priority effect. Sableye throws a quick punch, causing his arm to extend as long as a stage builder block. If it connects with a foe, it deals 8% and low knockback.
If it clashes with a move and wins, however, Sucker Punch, deals 16% and medium knockback. Sucker Punch has priority comparable to a weaker Pound.
Like most fsmashes, Sucker Punch can be thrown straight forward, slightly up, or slightly down.
UP SMASH: GEM BOMB
Sableye rips a gem from his body, causing him to shreek in pain but gaining an item to throw.
Pulling a gem from his body causes Sableye to take 4% (and a great deal of pain), but gives him a Gem Bomb. Gem Bombs act like throwing items (like Deku Nuts or Bob-Ombs), and explode upon touching a surface.
Although the blast radius is small, each Gem Bomb deals 11% and knockback slightly less than that of the fireball in Mario's forward smash.
Sableye has 4 Gem Bombs to use; 3 on his back, and 1 on his chest.
DOWN SMASH: FAINT ATTACK
Upon using this move, Sableye vanishes for 1 second. During this invisibility time, you can move Sableye like normal. When he reappears, if he is in contact with an opponent, he leaps onto them and deals 13% and medium knockback. If he isn't in contact with an opponent, he pounces onto the ground and falls prone.
Fully charging this attack doesn't effect the damage or knockback dealt, but allows Sableye to stay invisible longer.
NUETRAL AIR: NEGATIVE FORM
Sableye chuckles as his entire body turns black as it is engulfed in a negative energy. He stays coated in the stuff for 2 seconds.
When in his negative form, all of Sableye's attacks deal an additional 2% damage, but he takes 1/2 the damage he inflicts as well.
FORWARD AIR: NIGHT SLASH
Sableye brings both of his hands down in front of him in an attempt to rake enemies. This attack comes out very fast and deals good knockback (for a Sableye move), killing at around 141%, but has rather short range.
BACKWARD AIR: PHANTOM DART
A small dart made of negative energy appears in Sableye's hand, and he flings in behind him at a 45 degree angle (if Sableye's feet is 0 degrees and the top of his head is 180). This dart travels as fast a one of Sheik's needles but only 1/2 as far. Creating and throwing a phantom dart takes 1/3 a second.
Any opponent hit by a phantom dart takes 1% and neglectable knockback.
UP AIR: HEAD TWISTER
Sableye's head spins in place, sucking in opponents. Once used, the move lasts for 1 second and spins 14 times, dealing 1% per spin. This move tends to suck opponents in at low percentages.
The final hit causes low knockback, and after the move ends, Sableye becomes dizzy, unable to take any action for another second.
DOWN AIR: RAPID STOMP
Sableye delivers a series of frantic kicks beneath him. There are 7 kicks in total, each inflicting 2% and low knockback.
GRABS
Sableye leans forward with both hands outstretched in an attempt to grab a victim. Despite his small size, his lean gives him a very decent grab range.
If he manages to grab someone, Sableye leaps on top of their head.
PUMMEL
Sableye claws at his foe's face, dealing 2%. His pummel is rather fast.
FORWARD, BACKWARD, AND UPWARD THROW: KICK LEAP
3 of Sableye's throws are basically identical.
Sableye hops on top of his opponent's head and kicks off, sending Sableye as far as his second jump would eoither forwards (if used as a forward throw), backwards, or directly up. His opponent takes 11% and very little knockback in the opposite direction.
DOWNWARD THROW: VAMPIRE BITE
Sableye bites down on his enemy's skull and stays there firmly. Once used, the opponent can move about freely, but Sableye remains on their head, dealing 6% to his victim and healing 3% of his own health per second he remains attached. Sabelye acts as a large flower; to remove him, act as if you were removing a flower.
Once removed, Sableye goes into a spinning fall state. You can either fall prone, or tech the landing.
FINAL SMASH: SABLEYE SWARM
An enormous portal opens up above the stage and dumps out several Sableyes, ready to hunt down your enemies! This move summons 5 CPU level 9 Sableyes to fight on your team. They are slightly lighter and smaller than a normal Sableye, but otherwise identical. After 11 seconds, the portal reappears and the Sableye are sucked back into it.
Wizzerd
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 929
Sableye's actually a planned set by two regulars here (well, three, but two of them were planning to do it already), so it's interesting to see your take on him, Zook. The set's not bad by newcomer standards (I remember you posting a Gengar set way back when, but that was so long ago and standards have changed so much I can consider you one), but I can definitely see some room for improvement.
You already have a sense of organization, which is good; the font looks nice and the color scheme is appropriate. Your writing style, however, I think could be improved. The main problem is that you're using the enter key too much - so many paragraphs in individual moves can look somewhat intimidating. That said, Sableye definitely has voice, which is fairly rare but always a good thing, so good job on that.
The biggest problem with Sableye, though, is that there isn't much playstyle. What I mean is that the moves don't really come together into something that really bleeds Sableye. To see more of what I'm talking about, this guide explains what I mean more in detail. Super Macho Man is probably a decent example of a playstyle based on breaking shields. Well, it's not entirely true that Sableye doesn't have playstyle - he does have this thing on harming himself to harm his opponents, but it probably wouldn't work all that well in practice (see below), and it seems fairly thinly spread. A playstyle section where you give us a summary of how exactly he should be played is probably a good idea too.
I'm kind of scared that the things about damaging himself to power himself up would work properly, as I said above. The fspec sounds... like it wouldn't really be used, because it doesn't give you any profit in percentage over your opponent (since you take the damage they do)... if the next attack actually hits. If it misses, you essentially take damage and get nothing for it. The nair sounds even worse because you don't get any actual profit unless the attacks you use all do less than 4% (2% profit - half the damage of the attack, so it has to be less than 4% to get a lead). The moves might come into play when you get to a ridiculous percent, like you said in the introduction, but with his weight and meh recovery it doesn't seem like he would come into play all that easily. I'd say he should probably have some options that make him more difficult to kill so it could come into play easier.
Sableye has some really cool moves like the uspec portal (really simple, but really clever), but on the other hand he has some somewhat bland moves like the fair and dair. Bland moves are fine if they add to playstyle, but these don't really do that much for Sableye. In addition, he seems rather underpowered as a whole. There are a bunch of cases where formerly decent moves are turned inviable by additional effects. I think you tried to balance the dtilt too much and it sounds rather useless now. 1.5 seconds of startup lag is double a Falcon Punch, allowing the opponent to easily time a spotdodge or better yet punish him. The uair is another example - a second of ending lag is really a lot and would probably leave Sableye more damaged than his opponent.
Overall, Sableye is fairly solid considering that you haven't posted a set since MYM5, but there's still a lot to be done about him. I'd reccomend looking over some of the guides in the OP. We'd love to have you stick around, Zook, Sableye definitely shows a lot of promise
.
You already have a sense of organization, which is good; the font looks nice and the color scheme is appropriate. Your writing style, however, I think could be improved. The main problem is that you're using the enter key too much - so many paragraphs in individual moves can look somewhat intimidating. That said, Sableye definitely has voice, which is fairly rare but always a good thing, so good job on that.
The biggest problem with Sableye, though, is that there isn't much playstyle. What I mean is that the moves don't really come together into something that really bleeds Sableye. To see more of what I'm talking about, this guide explains what I mean more in detail. Super Macho Man is probably a decent example of a playstyle based on breaking shields. Well, it's not entirely true that Sableye doesn't have playstyle - he does have this thing on harming himself to harm his opponents, but it probably wouldn't work all that well in practice (see below), and it seems fairly thinly spread. A playstyle section where you give us a summary of how exactly he should be played is probably a good idea too.
I'm kind of scared that the things about damaging himself to power himself up would work properly, as I said above. The fspec sounds... like it wouldn't really be used, because it doesn't give you any profit in percentage over your opponent (since you take the damage they do)... if the next attack actually hits. If it misses, you essentially take damage and get nothing for it. The nair sounds even worse because you don't get any actual profit unless the attacks you use all do less than 4% (2% profit - half the damage of the attack, so it has to be less than 4% to get a lead). The moves might come into play when you get to a ridiculous percent, like you said in the introduction, but with his weight and meh recovery it doesn't seem like he would come into play all that easily. I'd say he should probably have some options that make him more difficult to kill so it could come into play easier.
Sableye has some really cool moves like the uspec portal (really simple, but really clever), but on the other hand he has some somewhat bland moves like the fair and dair. Bland moves are fine if they add to playstyle, but these don't really do that much for Sableye. In addition, he seems rather underpowered as a whole. There are a bunch of cases where formerly decent moves are turned inviable by additional effects. I think you tried to balance the dtilt too much and it sounds rather useless now. 1.5 seconds of startup lag is double a Falcon Punch, allowing the opponent to easily time a spotdodge or better yet punish him. The uair is another example - a second of ending lag is really a lot and would probably leave Sableye more damaged than his opponent.
Overall, Sableye is fairly solid considering that you haven't posted a set since MYM5, but there's still a lot to be done about him. I'd reccomend looking over some of the guides in the OP. We'd love to have you stick around, Zook, Sableye definitely shows a lot of promise
plus the idea of another mod regular in MYM tickles my fancy :3
Katapultar
Smash Lord
@ Smady's catch-up: I know it doesn't concern me, but somebody's at least got to compliment you on that cool image you made (or was it Chris?) with all the characters. You seem to like sets with images. Anyway....
Isn't this a coincidence, MT was talking about Sableye in the recap? Never mind.
[size=+3]Sableye[/size]
It's good to see you helping out with the moveset drought, Zook. Anyway, the organisation and writing style looks very good.
The attacks themselves are interesting ideas: Shadow Claw for one, reminds me of my Banette (And the concept of the TCG Banette's attacks), except Sableye does the damage to itself rather than have the foe do it for him. While the portal looks like a good idea, I do kind of think it's a bit OoC despite the fact that Sableyes appeared out of portals in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time/Darkness.
It seems that Sableye is kind of a high-risk, high-reward character. He can damage himself with Shadow Claw, then damage his foe for the same amount (I do have a question though, what if you used the dash attack, would each hit do 6% more?). The one concept I very much like about Sableye is the fact that he (most likely) can/must rack damage using Shadow Claw, and even after all that damage he gives his foe, you wrap it all up with the D-throw, which would be very effective against a foe with a high percentage. This is without a doubt, my favourite part of the set.
A few nitpicks: I don't really know how the Down Special is useful, and I don't think Sableye has enough slash attacks. You should have given Sableye Shadow Sneak (Instead of the portals despite them being a decent idea). I think Sableye is a bit underpowered, maybe not with the D-throw.
Sableye indeed stays true to the playstyle summary you gave him at the start. Shadow Claw and the D-throw even give Sableye quite a decent ways to be played, you can give him a bit of mindgames with the Down Special, camp using the Neutral and Up Special, or just go all out. It even stays true to his character in a way, judging his type.
Overall, Sableye is quite a good set. He'd be pretty fun to use in Brawl with his multiple choice playstyle. So yeah, good job. Now people need to go out and make Mismagius, Rotom, Shedinja (I'd love to see that), and Giratina. Then we can say that all the ghosts are done.
Isn't this a coincidence, MT was talking about Sableye in the recap? Never mind.
[size=+3]Sableye[/size]
It's good to see you helping out with the moveset drought, Zook. Anyway, the organisation and writing style looks very good.
The attacks themselves are interesting ideas: Shadow Claw for one, reminds me of my Banette (And the concept of the TCG Banette's attacks), except Sableye does the damage to itself rather than have the foe do it for him. While the portal looks like a good idea, I do kind of think it's a bit OoC despite the fact that Sableyes appeared out of portals in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time/Darkness.
It seems that Sableye is kind of a high-risk, high-reward character. He can damage himself with Shadow Claw, then damage his foe for the same amount (I do have a question though, what if you used the dash attack, would each hit do 6% more?). The one concept I very much like about Sableye is the fact that he (most likely) can/must rack damage using Shadow Claw, and even after all that damage he gives his foe, you wrap it all up with the D-throw, which would be very effective against a foe with a high percentage. This is without a doubt, my favourite part of the set.
A few nitpicks: I don't really know how the Down Special is useful, and I don't think Sableye has enough slash attacks. You should have given Sableye Shadow Sneak (Instead of the portals despite them being a decent idea). I think Sableye is a bit underpowered, maybe not with the D-throw.
Sableye indeed stays true to the playstyle summary you gave him at the start. Shadow Claw and the D-throw even give Sableye quite a decent ways to be played, you can give him a bit of mindgames with the Down Special, camp using the Neutral and Up Special, or just go all out. It even stays true to his character in a way, judging his type.
Overall, Sableye is quite a good set. He'd be pretty fun to use in Brawl with his multiple choice playstyle. So yeah, good job. Now people need to go out and make Mismagius, Rotom, Shedinja (I'd love to see that), and Giratina. Then we can say that all the ghosts are done.
Zook
Perpetual Lazy Bum
Thanks for the critique, Wizzerd. When thinking up Sableye (actually, it was going to be an original character), I wanted to create a fragile character who would rely on bringing both fighters up to rediculous percentages and then toss his foes off the stage through a portal to their doom.
With this being my first set in months, I was afraid to make him... well, powerful. I fell in love with the damage-for-damage concept, but I wasn't sure how to balance it.
I have a few more sets in mind, and I'll be sure to flesh out my writing and read the OP guides before I submit it.
With this being my first set in months, I was afraid to make him... well, powerful. I fell in love with the damage-for-damage concept, but I wasn't sure how to balance it.
I have a few more sets in mind, and I'll be sure to flesh out my writing and read the OP guides before I submit it.
Sableye:
You do a good job in getting your set to stand out right off the bat, as you don't have the crappy organization so many newcomers are plagued with. Your intro is also intruiging, making out Sableye as a lame character in his source material before saying how he's just the opposite in Smash. But...I really don't think he is. In a real match, Sableye would lose pretty handily, me thinks. He can deal the damage he dealt to himself to opponents, but...he still has that damage, and he's still light as a feather. His only healing move is the seemingly unimportant D-Throw. Plus, parts of the set such as Down and Up Special, while being unique and cool in function, don't tie into the whole playstyle you're trying to get at with dealing and taking damage. Sableye is amazing for a first set (at least first in modern MYM), and I could see you getting good at making movesets. You've got originality down, now you've got to focus on playstyle and overall flow. Hopefully we'll see more from you in the future. Now Ocon's got a rival mod to deal with (SHOCK)...
You do a good job in getting your set to stand out right off the bat, as you don't have the crappy organization so many newcomers are plagued with. Your intro is also intruiging, making out Sableye as a lame character in his source material before saying how he's just the opposite in Smash. But...I really don't think he is. In a real match, Sableye would lose pretty handily, me thinks. He can deal the damage he dealt to himself to opponents, but...he still has that damage, and he's still light as a feather. His only healing move is the seemingly unimportant D-Throw. Plus, parts of the set such as Down and Up Special, while being unique and cool in function, don't tie into the whole playstyle you're trying to get at with dealing and taking damage. Sableye is amazing for a first set (at least first in modern MYM), and I could see you getting good at making movesets. You've got originality down, now you've got to focus on playstyle and overall flow. Hopefully we'll see more from you in the future. Now Ocon's got a rival mod to deal with (SHOCK)...
Hyper_Ridley
Smash Champion
SABLEYE
I actually kinda liked what you were going for with the paragraph splits; the first one-liner is basically a "synopsis" of the move in many cases, then the different parts of the move were broken down to emphasize each piece of the move instead of just saying "I'm a move, love me!" It's nice to see a moveset that actually wants to flaunt its individual pieces instead of simply going for "the entire picture".
As for the actual moveset itself, I was pleasently surprised. He does have playstyle with a "glass-cannon" feel, considering he wants to rack up damage like a God and his high attack speed makes him good offensivley, but then he has a light-weight and a mediocre recovery (and he hurts himself) so he isn't so good defensivley. He actually could be a mxiture of a zoner and glass-canon when you take his portals Shadow Ball, and Dtilt into account, which would be pretty unique I'd say. While I do agree with Wizzerd that his self-damaging moves need a buff, I don't really think it needs to be a particularly big one. If he doesn't like how much damage he's taking, he can always use DThrow to heal himself. If anything, I think the DTilt is what really needs a buff; 1.5 seconds of startup lag that I can just dodge to avoid, and it only does 2% and flinching knockback? I'd say to signifigantly lower the startup lag more than anything; I'd make a wonderful way to control the opponent's position, which would help to emphasize the unique playstyle I see in him.
The actual moves themselves also had a nice amount of creativity. His special moves were all very cool and innovative and I can definitley see them working into his playstyle. I also enjoyed his throw game for its lulzy animation and the Foward/Back/Up throw system (and of course DThrow for fitting wonderfully into his playtyle.) His "unique normals" such as his DTilt, Fsmash, and Nair were all fun and appropriate, and the basic claw attacks are still respectable for being the fast strikes he needs to be good offensivley...in fact, you know what, I don't see the problem everyone has with his "lack of playstyle" anymore. Seriously, just give him some damage buffs along with the Dtilt speed-buff I mentioned earlier and he'd be perfect. He's already got a great concept behind him, he just needs to be better able to take advantage of it.
Oh, and he doesn't have Pokemon syndrome. +10 awesome points.
So, overall, I really feel like this set is being underrated somewhat. It DOES have a playstyle, a fairly original one at that. All of the creative stuff was fitting to how I saw him played and all of the simple stuff was simple but effective. He just needs a few simple buffs to allow his gameplay to fully function.
I actually kinda liked what you were going for with the paragraph splits; the first one-liner is basically a "synopsis" of the move in many cases, then the different parts of the move were broken down to emphasize each piece of the move instead of just saying "I'm a move, love me!" It's nice to see a moveset that actually wants to flaunt its individual pieces instead of simply going for "the entire picture".
As for the actual moveset itself, I was pleasently surprised. He does have playstyle with a "glass-cannon" feel, considering he wants to rack up damage like a God and his high attack speed makes him good offensivley, but then he has a light-weight and a mediocre recovery (and he hurts himself) so he isn't so good defensivley. He actually could be a mxiture of a zoner and glass-canon when you take his portals Shadow Ball, and Dtilt into account, which would be pretty unique I'd say. While I do agree with Wizzerd that his self-damaging moves need a buff, I don't really think it needs to be a particularly big one. If he doesn't like how much damage he's taking, he can always use DThrow to heal himself. If anything, I think the DTilt is what really needs a buff; 1.5 seconds of startup lag that I can just dodge to avoid, and it only does 2% and flinching knockback? I'd say to signifigantly lower the startup lag more than anything; I'd make a wonderful way to control the opponent's position, which would help to emphasize the unique playstyle I see in him.
The actual moves themselves also had a nice amount of creativity. His special moves were all very cool and innovative and I can definitley see them working into his playstyle. I also enjoyed his throw game for its lulzy animation and the Foward/Back/Up throw system (and of course DThrow for fitting wonderfully into his playtyle.) His "unique normals" such as his DTilt, Fsmash, and Nair were all fun and appropriate, and the basic claw attacks are still respectable for being the fast strikes he needs to be good offensivley...in fact, you know what, I don't see the problem everyone has with his "lack of playstyle" anymore. Seriously, just give him some damage buffs along with the Dtilt speed-buff I mentioned earlier and he'd be perfect. He's already got a great concept behind him, he just needs to be better able to take advantage of it.
Oh, and he doesn't have Pokemon syndrome. +10 awesome points.
So, overall, I really feel like this set is being underrated somewhat. It DOES have a playstyle, a fairly original one at that. All of the creative stuff was fitting to how I saw him played and all of the simple stuff was simple but effective. He just needs a few simple buffs to allow his gameplay to fully function.
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,911
The Abomination is indeed one of the less-linked-in moves of the set, sure. After all, it only interacts with the Ghouls in its’ making, demands that you use usmash on it, and also greatly appreciates Kel grabbing the enemy to keep them still. Meat Wagons allow you to produce corpses just fine if the foe is focusing on Ghouls and refuses to come over to you.Smash Daddy said:
Hades has attacks that hit the whole screen? If anything I think that sounds more Junahu esque. Kel’Thuzad is very focused in that pretty much all the moves are meant to make the foe attack him instead of the Ghouls or get mana/corpses through other means and are more often then not linked to several other moves. Death and Decay, the nair, which you seem to be referring to, either forces the foe to attack –you- or gets tons of damage on them for them insisting on attacking the Ghouls.
Not perfect? Sure. But I’d say it’s better then the standard Rool organization with a few random fancy symbols so he can brag about his “stellar organization”. Seems he can't make one without sacrificing a moveset for it in the process.
Since I totally don’t talk about playstyle uses at all in this moveset…
Mana Shield originally didn’t have that line in there because I think it was blatantly obvious and it was referenced as such in many, many other moves. I edited the line in casually after a ton of people somehow didn’t grasp the blatantly obvious concept that I was ramming down their throats.
Your many options are in how to make the foe attack you. Kel doesn’t rely on summons, they’re a damn BURDEN to him. Giving him more summons would just turn him into a generic trap character. Kel is about fighting on his own and making foes attack him, which he really doesn’t mind seeing he’s invincible. He can do that by playing defensively and luring the foes away from the Ghouls or pressuring them himself if they refuse to come to him. Kel’Thuzad has no flowchart playstyle by any definition of the word – if you’re going to say he has it at all, then my main trio of heralded MYM 6 sets certainly have it.
So. . .Better then the Count, but it’s still not up to snuff, according to the chat.
I don’t **** over Lucy as much as I do Kel to defend her so vigorously, but this Kel commentary was just ridiculous and I know you’re stupidly biased against Lucy for reasons unknown to modern man.
D
Deleted member
Guest
None of that about the Abomination is effectual toward any other element of the playstyle - you're just feeding the Abomination. Without it, the moveset would be largely the same.
Hades' grab.
Maybe I'm approaching this too much like Junahu would, but basic logic would tell you that having a move that hits everywhere at once on the screen is not a good idea, unless everything else is based around it.
You did state quite a lot of relevance bits and pieces, but I still wasn't a fan of the writing style. You have a tendency to go for the quip or joke before the meat and bones, which is a little disorientating.
Eh, it really isn't that great of a playstyle idea in the first place, to be honest. It's quintessentially a summon character, but with some moves which are a little random [like the all-powerful, all-screen, all-cheap move] that don't function as summon moves. The mana shield is a great idea, but you do go off on these other adventures that don't quite link up with that original, great idea.
I don't know what you mean by "up to snuff" exactly, but I am a fan of Kel. It wasn't ridiculous comment, really, just not glowingly positive. I do mention good things in the original comment quite profusely.
KingK.Rool
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 1,810
Geez, this statement is both uncalled for and unfair. I haven't used "random fancy symbols" since MYM 4 - it seems to me that that's the way you tend to truss up your sets, using the template I gave you. Elves and Caterpie, who I assume you're referring to, have very ordinary organizations, so I hardly sacrificed anything on their behalf.
Just because you randomly centered your headers and changed your colour and font doesn't mean you've suddenly surpassed everyone else. As for "standard Rool organization"... dude, contrast King Hippo, Ekans and Abra and then tell me I always use the same format.
And I've never used the phrase "stellar organization", nor have I bragged about it.
It seems any word against Kel makes the blood rush to your head. I'll remember that.
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,911
I'm talking about the actual movesets you sacrificed on the behalf of Elves and Caterpie for a good organization. Because that's all they are. The organization covers up any possible moveset that could be hidden within.
Hippo, Ekans, sure. Abra's organization is very standard, as are pretty much all your Pokesets (Which is most of your sets) outside Ekans. I'm certainly not trying to say I've surpassed you in organization, I'm simply saying that you're not a god among men. The only person here with that notable of organization is Junahu. Hippo's the only organization you've had that I can really look back on. Kangaskhan's a very good example of your "random symbols" passing for organization.
I want to see what's so very much better in yours then mine, thank you. I'm dismissed as a common peasant while you eat the feasts of organization.
That would be a very large argument in-chat with Smady before I decided to curb-stomp his negative commentary. Yes, Smady, attacking a moveset for 90% of the commentary then saying "it's good" is negative. Could say the same about your Strangelove commentary.It seems any word against Kel makes the blood rush to your head. I'll remember that.
@Rool: Get back in the chat, coward.
half_silver28
Smash Ace
Alright, it's time to continue my MYM Top 5 lists! This time we're looking at my 5 favorite sets from MYM3 (and one from MYM2). Let's get right into it:
#5: Big Daddy and Little Sister by KOJ
“Save the Little Sister! The Big Daddy pulls his little friend off his back and lets her down. If used while off the stage, she will be instead tossed with extreme power onto the stage or at the ledge. If anyone gets hit by the Little Sister, they are damaged as if they got hit by a Ness/Lucas PKT2. This technique is useful for saving the Little Sister if you are out of range of the ledge, you can instead save the Little Sister, prolonging your life some.”
We start with what is probably my strangest choice by far. KOJ’s Gecko Moria set is more well known and placed higher, but Big Daddy and Little Sister stands out more for me upon looking back. This pairing is the original Cortiny, one of the first great dual character sets. Little Sister relies on the over-powered heavyweight for the duo’s damage dealing and KOing, yet she is the one that has to be KOed for them to lose a stock. As such Big Daddy has to protect her at all costs, and his recovery consists of sacrificing himself for her. Little Sister’s solo set was done quite well: it focuses on surviving as long as possible and using her syringe to regain health. This set does have limited detail and the Big Daddy has some shockingly high damage percents on some moves, but its forgivable. This IS an early MYM3 set, after all. I still love it though, and you might want give this set a read-through if you haven’t already.
#4: Naota Nadaba by Chief Mendez
“Naota stands up, then looks around, as if he hears something. Suddenly, a blue Rickenbacker 4001S flies onto the stage from above, pegging Naota right on top of the head, and burying him from the waist up in the ground...upside down. Any foe near Naota is similarly entombed.”
It’s impossible to say enough about the influence Chief Mendez had on MYM in the 2 contests he participated in, and Naota is a great example of the evolution of creativity in MYM. This set revolves around Naota’s strange attacks and abilities, and has a great flow to it despite the frequent use of prop moves, although there is the occasional out-of-place move. My own Excel set is cut from the same cloth as Naota, in that both of them have a somewhat random moveset that features heavy use of props. Granted, Naota flows better than Excel, but both sets are fitting since the characters hail from insanely random animes (FLCL and Excel Saga, respectively). Also notable is Mendez’s creative organization, which is built to mimic computer coding. The pictures are no longer there, but the rest of Mendez’s terrific work remains. FLCL is still one of my all-time favorite animes, and this set still does a great job of repping it.
#3: Cervantes by MasterWarlord
“Cervantes put his two arms behind him with his swords pointed outwards, then claps them together in front of him. If Cervantes hits someone with the move, he'll impale his swords into the enemy then rip them out to steal the enemy's soul, which appears in the form of a green orb. Cervantes laughs after the attack is complete, the enemy still recovering from having lost their soul.”
I certainly couldn’t do a proper MYM3 top 5 without Cervantes. The majority of Warlord’s sets are focused around an extremely fitting special mechanic, and the MYM3 runner-up is no exception. The core of Cervantes’ playstyle is stealing his foe’s soul, which gives boosts to many of his attacks. The dread pirate becomes more likely to drop the soul he’s carrying as he takes damage, creating a unique situation where Cervantes is more powerful in the early game than later on. As such, gimping is just as important to Cervantes as traditional KOing, and he is equipped to do just that once he steals a soul. Some of this set’s moves could be considered OOC (such as the pirate’s summoning of waves), but no set can be perfect, after all. If you haven’t read Cervantes, I’d suggest you do, since this set basically started MasterWarlord on his path to MYM greatness.
#2: Dracula by Chief Mendez
“The opponent has to be basically on top of Dracula for the move to connect (thus he "rears back" a little bit). Once you've embraced an enemy, rapidly tapping the B button will...well, let your imagination tell you what Dracula does to them as his back is turned to the screen.”
What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk, have at you!
… Now that that’s out of the way, let’s talk about this set. Dracula is the one set credited with jump-starting the detail movement, and MYM as we know it. The iconic vampire’s playstyle is fairly simply by today’s standards: he’s a long-range fighter, who can’t do much of anything in close quarters. This approach has been taken with a multitude of sets since, the least of which being my own set, Raven. Dracula was certainly one of the most creative sets of its time as well: a bland attack is nowhere to be found in this set (outside the down aerial, which is a generic spike). His over-the-top forward smash in particular is evidence of this, and possibly could have inspired the crazy forward smash of MasterWarlord’s Dimentio set. To put it bluntly, Dracula is one of MYM’s most iconic sets of all time, and one that every MYMer, regardless of experience, should read.
#1: The Headless Horseman by KingK.Rool
“Anyway, you want to keep the foe on their toes. You have close range power, long range power, and everything in between; however, you need your jack-o-lantern to have any given one of those. If the foe stops a throw or catches your pumpkin out of the air, they can easily break up your attack and close in, and you're missing half of your best melee attacks. You want to be cautious, but not so cautious that the foe can find their own openings to attack.”
In a sense, The Headless Horseman operates similar to Dracula, except he actually has decent close-range moves. Yet why is Rool’s first Halloween set number 1? Well, just use your head!
But seriously. The dark rider’s manipulation of his jack-o-lantern head was absolutely revolutionary at the time. He can throw the head like a typical battering item, or he can directly launch it at foes with his side special or down aerial. Or he can keep it on his shoulders and utilize the moves that require him to have his head. This doesn’t even mention his neutral special: setting his pumpkin head ablaze has many possible functions in his set. Like all of Rool’s sets, The Horseman has terrific flow and (obviously) a focus on playstyle. If you haven’t read this set… you probably should. Like right now. Along with Dracula, Rool’s masterpiece is one of the few MYM3 sets that remain great to this very day.
Honorable mentions: Donna by Junahu, Plusle & Minun by kitsuneko345, Street Performer by cheap_josh, Gecko Moria by KOJ, The Bard by Meadow, Squeak Squad by KingK.Rool, Pidgeot by KingK.Rool
Bonus MYM2 Set: Hollow Ichigo by RWB
“Hollow Ichigo is a rather strange character. His main method of attack is his sword, but the sword is seldom handled as a normal blade. Hichigo throws it and swings it with the hilt wrap. He is an excellent range fighter due to the combination of good power and the immense range his weapon gives him, and the fact that he has two projectiles, and neither are bad. However, Hichigo has problems if you get close to him. There, you get hit by the hilt wrap, not the sword. The Hiltwrap has no Knockback, so if that hits you during an attack from Hichigo, feel free to pound him.”
What where you expecting, Aqua Teen Hunger Force? Nope, instead I give you a set that almost none of you will recognize. This set was not eligible for voting, since RWB disappeared shortly after posting it, neglecting to give it a final smash. That was somewhat regrettable, since this was quite possibly the best set MYM2 has to offer. For starters, Hollow Ichigo was one of VERY few sets to actually explain the character’s playstyle, which was surprisingly well developed for its time. Hollow Ichigo attacks in the same manner he does in his source material: by swinging his sword around by the hilt wrap. This gives him a lot of range, but makes him vulnerable in close quarters. Hollow Ichigo can thus be considered the first character to have a spacing-based playstyle. Some of you may see this set as underdetailed and rather simplistic, and I certainly can’t blame you. But the one thing you have to remember is that this was MYM2, where playstyle, apparently, didn’t exist. Hollow Ichigo begs to differ.
#5: Big Daddy and Little Sister by KOJ
“Save the Little Sister! The Big Daddy pulls his little friend off his back and lets her down. If used while off the stage, she will be instead tossed with extreme power onto the stage or at the ledge. If anyone gets hit by the Little Sister, they are damaged as if they got hit by a Ness/Lucas PKT2. This technique is useful for saving the Little Sister if you are out of range of the ledge, you can instead save the Little Sister, prolonging your life some.”
We start with what is probably my strangest choice by far. KOJ’s Gecko Moria set is more well known and placed higher, but Big Daddy and Little Sister stands out more for me upon looking back. This pairing is the original Cortiny, one of the first great dual character sets. Little Sister relies on the over-powered heavyweight for the duo’s damage dealing and KOing, yet she is the one that has to be KOed for them to lose a stock. As such Big Daddy has to protect her at all costs, and his recovery consists of sacrificing himself for her. Little Sister’s solo set was done quite well: it focuses on surviving as long as possible and using her syringe to regain health. This set does have limited detail and the Big Daddy has some shockingly high damage percents on some moves, but its forgivable. This IS an early MYM3 set, after all. I still love it though, and you might want give this set a read-through if you haven’t already.
#4: Naota Nadaba by Chief Mendez
“Naota stands up, then looks around, as if he hears something. Suddenly, a blue Rickenbacker 4001S flies onto the stage from above, pegging Naota right on top of the head, and burying him from the waist up in the ground...upside down. Any foe near Naota is similarly entombed.”
It’s impossible to say enough about the influence Chief Mendez had on MYM in the 2 contests he participated in, and Naota is a great example of the evolution of creativity in MYM. This set revolves around Naota’s strange attacks and abilities, and has a great flow to it despite the frequent use of prop moves, although there is the occasional out-of-place move. My own Excel set is cut from the same cloth as Naota, in that both of them have a somewhat random moveset that features heavy use of props. Granted, Naota flows better than Excel, but both sets are fitting since the characters hail from insanely random animes (FLCL and Excel Saga, respectively). Also notable is Mendez’s creative organization, which is built to mimic computer coding. The pictures are no longer there, but the rest of Mendez’s terrific work remains. FLCL is still one of my all-time favorite animes, and this set still does a great job of repping it.
#3: Cervantes by MasterWarlord
“Cervantes put his two arms behind him with his swords pointed outwards, then claps them together in front of him. If Cervantes hits someone with the move, he'll impale his swords into the enemy then rip them out to steal the enemy's soul, which appears in the form of a green orb. Cervantes laughs after the attack is complete, the enemy still recovering from having lost their soul.”
I certainly couldn’t do a proper MYM3 top 5 without Cervantes. The majority of Warlord’s sets are focused around an extremely fitting special mechanic, and the MYM3 runner-up is no exception. The core of Cervantes’ playstyle is stealing his foe’s soul, which gives boosts to many of his attacks. The dread pirate becomes more likely to drop the soul he’s carrying as he takes damage, creating a unique situation where Cervantes is more powerful in the early game than later on. As such, gimping is just as important to Cervantes as traditional KOing, and he is equipped to do just that once he steals a soul. Some of this set’s moves could be considered OOC (such as the pirate’s summoning of waves), but no set can be perfect, after all. If you haven’t read Cervantes, I’d suggest you do, since this set basically started MasterWarlord on his path to MYM greatness.
#2: Dracula by Chief Mendez
“The opponent has to be basically on top of Dracula for the move to connect (thus he "rears back" a little bit). Once you've embraced an enemy, rapidly tapping the B button will...well, let your imagination tell you what Dracula does to them as his back is turned to the screen.”
What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk, have at you!
… Now that that’s out of the way, let’s talk about this set. Dracula is the one set credited with jump-starting the detail movement, and MYM as we know it. The iconic vampire’s playstyle is fairly simply by today’s standards: he’s a long-range fighter, who can’t do much of anything in close quarters. This approach has been taken with a multitude of sets since, the least of which being my own set, Raven. Dracula was certainly one of the most creative sets of its time as well: a bland attack is nowhere to be found in this set (outside the down aerial, which is a generic spike). His over-the-top forward smash in particular is evidence of this, and possibly could have inspired the crazy forward smash of MasterWarlord’s Dimentio set. To put it bluntly, Dracula is one of MYM’s most iconic sets of all time, and one that every MYMer, regardless of experience, should read.
#1: The Headless Horseman by KingK.Rool
“Anyway, you want to keep the foe on their toes. You have close range power, long range power, and everything in between; however, you need your jack-o-lantern to have any given one of those. If the foe stops a throw or catches your pumpkin out of the air, they can easily break up your attack and close in, and you're missing half of your best melee attacks. You want to be cautious, but not so cautious that the foe can find their own openings to attack.”
In a sense, The Headless Horseman operates similar to Dracula, except he actually has decent close-range moves. Yet why is Rool’s first Halloween set number 1? Well, just use your head!
*shot for terrible joke*
Honorable mentions: Donna by Junahu, Plusle & Minun by kitsuneko345, Street Performer by cheap_josh, Gecko Moria by KOJ, The Bard by Meadow, Squeak Squad by KingK.Rool, Pidgeot by KingK.Rool
Bonus MYM2 Set: Hollow Ichigo by RWB
“Hollow Ichigo is a rather strange character. His main method of attack is his sword, but the sword is seldom handled as a normal blade. Hichigo throws it and swings it with the hilt wrap. He is an excellent range fighter due to the combination of good power and the immense range his weapon gives him, and the fact that he has two projectiles, and neither are bad. However, Hichigo has problems if you get close to him. There, you get hit by the hilt wrap, not the sword. The Hiltwrap has no Knockback, so if that hits you during an attack from Hichigo, feel free to pound him.”
What where you expecting, Aqua Teen Hunger Force? Nope, instead I give you a set that almost none of you will recognize. This set was not eligible for voting, since RWB disappeared shortly after posting it, neglecting to give it a final smash. That was somewhat regrettable, since this was quite possibly the best set MYM2 has to offer. For starters, Hollow Ichigo was one of VERY few sets to actually explain the character’s playstyle, which was surprisingly well developed for its time. Hollow Ichigo attacks in the same manner he does in his source material: by swinging his sword around by the hilt wrap. This gives him a lot of range, but makes him vulnerable in close quarters. Hollow Ichigo can thus be considered the first character to have a spacing-based playstyle. Some of you may see this set as underdetailed and rather simplistic, and I certainly can’t blame you. But the one thing you have to remember is that this was MYM2, where playstyle, apparently, didn’t exist. Hollow Ichigo begs to differ.
KingK.Rool
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 1,810
The presentation is the point, though. It's out-of-the-box. The movesets came after the
Oh, I'm certainly not a god among men, and my organization is hardly a patch on what Junahu and Ocon have been doing these days (so much room for creativity when you do all-image sets, after all). Anyway, my take on organization has always been that it's supposed to both evoke the character and be pleasing to the eye (uniqueness is secondary, although I've played around with just about every option BBCode offers at some point). With rare exceptions - Father Time, possibly Zant, Romero-who-opted-for-nostalgia - I think I've succeeded.
And you don't like Shellder's organization, so cloistered and frigid? Or Jumpluff's, all airy and breezy and playful?
Well, firstly and most importantly, until Kel you spent three contests using the exact same template for every single set. (flip)
As for why Kel's organization hasn't been more praised, I'm sure I have no idea. Maybe people like "random symbols" if they translate a sense of character, like in Kangaskhan. Maybe the plain, somber tombstone colour scheme is simply overused. I'm sure I have no idea.
Quite.
If only I'd seen this earlier. Can't resist rising to a nice, juicy piece of bait. We'll carry on tomorrow.
Silver: Ah, I loved Big Daddy & Little Sister! Good call! A solid list overall, really, and I do love to see Horseman at the top. That set has aged so well, and it seems like just about everyone loves it nowadays.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Seeing as we take for granted that not everyone visits the chatroom regularly, I would like to update you all on recent proceedings in Make Your Move.
For one, the chatroom has undergone a few changes itself, now being entirely governed by the conglomerate and its trusty horse.
I am also sad to announce that the very well-esteemed and one of the most prominent figures in the contest, Hyper_Ridley, will be dropping out of leadership to focus on creating movesets. Though we all grieve the loss of a great peer in the conglomerate, we are fortunate that he is indeed staying with us and will surely be a credit to himself as a regular member as much as he ever was.
I will try to keep the thread updated with posts like this from now on, whenever necessary. There are a few changes possibly being made by the leadership to how Make Your Move is run and I will try to keep the thread connected with any relevant information.
For one, the chatroom has undergone a few changes itself, now being entirely governed by the conglomerate and its trusty horse.
I am also sad to announce that the very well-esteemed and one of the most prominent figures in the contest, Hyper_Ridley, will be dropping out of leadership to focus on creating movesets. Though we all grieve the loss of a great peer in the conglomerate, we are fortunate that he is indeed staying with us and will surely be a credit to himself as a regular member as much as he ever was.
I will try to keep the thread updated with posts like this from now on, whenever necessary. There are a few changes possibly being made by the leadership to how Make Your Move is run and I will try to keep the thread connected with any relevant information.
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,911
INSPECTOR LUNGE
Inspector Heinrich Lunge is an anti-hero from the Monster series (A.K.A. the best manga/anime/anything ever made). Lunge is a highly respected German detective for his logic, quite comparable to L from Death Note, though with bad-assery in place of the aspergers kiddie qualities. He is in consistent pursuit of the main character throughout most of the course of the series, considering the main villain but a figment of the main character’s imagination. Even despite all the attempts from the main character and his allies to try to show the main villain to Lunge, he never accepts the possibility and becomes completely obsessed, chasing after the same case for years and years.
Lunge becomes so obsessed that he barely does anything outside his work, resulting in a divorce with his wife. When offered a chance to see his newly born grandchild later on, he yet again gives priority to his work. This is partially due to him constantly thinking of himself as the killers in his cases and thinking through everything from their perspective, sometimes taking it too far for his own good. . .
STATS
Strengths:
Traction: 8 Attack Speed: 8 Movement: 7 Aerial Movement: 6.75Lunge’s attack speed is very legitimate – he’s not a heavyweight antagonist by any means, his attack speed has no strings attached. Lunge’s ground movement is somewhat strange – he at first only walks at Ganon’s dash speed, but he accelerates as he runs, reaching his max speed of slightly faster then Captain Falcon’s dash after going half Battlefield’s length.
Average:
Size: 6.75 Recovery: 6.5 Weight: 6 Falling Speed: 5.75 Jumps: 5 Fairly standard stats for someone of Lunge’s normal human body type. Lunge is roughly Marth’s size – who isn’t that small in comparison to the Brawl cast when Mario’s ****** status is considered the standard.
Weaknesses:
Priority: 4.5 Power: 3 Range: 1.75Lunge can’t KO outside his complicated mechanic, all of his attacks having set knockback. He has to work for them a lot more then most characters, much less those heavyweight male antagonists. Lunge is also a very close quarters combatant, though thankfully he’s good at keeping the foe in his range once he gets them there.
NIGHT OF THE MURDER
A cpu controlled innocent civilian spawns in front of the foe at the start of the match instead of Lunge. They only have a paltry 25 stamina and horrible movement speed, easy enough to kill. If the foe doesn’t kill them in 4.5 seconds, though, they lose a stock. Of course, that’s not a problem for anyone at all. It just prevents those defensive characters Junahu goes out of his way to spite from using this time to set-up.
After the civilian dies, Lunge spawns in the usual position. His goal now is to re-enact the murder – himself. By copying the foe’s moves via your Down Special/Fthrow/Uthrow/Dtilt, you must go through the exact series of attacks the foe did until the civilian died, starting at the foe’s spawn point. Considering you’re doing some actual attacks throughout this and moving around, this isn’t as hard as it sounds, but the fact that the foe chooses what you have to copy makes things difficult. You don’t have to go through the exact movement the foe did – just start at their spawn point and do all the same attacks at the same points they did. If you use any other attack then the ones in the sequence or wait 2 seconds before doing the next attack, you have to start over. There’s a gracious half a Stage builder block of leeway in terms of exact positioning. When Lunge starts up the reenactment his portrait lights up slightly, then glitters if he completes it. It goes back to normal if the reenactment is interrupted.
An alternative to this is playing the victim in the reenactment. You have to get hit by all the attacks the foe did to the civilian in the same location as where the victim was hit by them. This can be harder to bait the foe into as it requires cooperation on their part in using the right attacks at the right time, and they can always just use attacks to kill the victim that they won’t want to use on you in the fight. If you go for this approach, a couple small checkmarks appear next to Lunge’s portrait, one for each attack he reenacts, then his portrait glitters once it’s complete.
Once Lunge knows how the murder happened and his portrait is glittering, he moves on to the next phase of his game – proving it via his Neutral Special.
(When the foe gets KOd, Lunge vanishes briefly as another civilian spawns and the process repeats. If there’s more then one enemy they each get a civilian to kill. To make him viable in FFAs/doubles where this process would inevitably be interrupted, Lunge can skip the reenanctment phase and go straight to getting evidence with Side Special.)
SPECIALS
DOWN SPECIAL – INTERNAL HARD DRIVE
Lunge puts his hand to his side and does an awkward motion with his fingers – he’s typing on a non-existent keyboard. This is an awkward trait that Lunge didn’t get to teach L before he went off on his own. Apparently L thought that eating endless sweets and going into the fetal position like a baby was a valid substitute.
This takes 2.5 seconds to complete, but when finished you can now use the last move the foe hit you with when you first used the move. This doesn’t overwrite Lunge’s normal move for that button input – you use moves “stored on your hard drive” by doing a double tap input (Seems Lunge read Abra’s mind). You can still move and use other attacks while “typing”, so it’s not as hard to use as it sounds.
. . .How does Lunge perform all of the copied attacks? He has no magical bag of hammer-space to steal things from like the third worst “moveset” (Tac) ever made. Fairly simple. For pretty much anything that’s melee based that’s not directly physical/physically incapable for Lunge, Lunge simply performs generic punches and kicks that have identical properties to the moves, oftentimes having deceptive range due to the animation. For projectiles and such attacks, Lunge simply does gunshots with his pistol that have identical properties to the copied move.
NEUTRAL SPECIAL – PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE
Lunge takes out a camera (Practical and portable, unlike Anne’s monopod) and takes a picture laglessly. This creates a hitbox the size of 3 Bowsers next to each other in front of Lunge. This only does 2% and flinching, the range and speed of the move doing little to warrant use.
After you’ve re-enacted the crime scene, your next goal is to take pictures of three things the foe was doing when they murdered the civilian. It doesn’t have to be an attack – it can be dashing, standing still, anything. They have to be in the rough position of where the foe was, though. Only half a Stage Builder Block of leeway. 3 checkmarks show up alongside Lunge’s portrait as he completes this phase, then his portrait turn gold.
Once you’ve got your pictures and your portrait is gold, you’re ready to make an arrest with your dthrow.
SIDE SPECIAL – CHAIN LINK
Lunge swings forward one handcuff of a pair one third of a Battlefield Platform forward. The hitbox on the end of the chain (The actual handcuff) is small, but has grab priority and the move only has .2 seconds of start lag on it (Though .65 ending). Should Lunge hit with this, he’ll quickly put the other cuff around his own arm and tug on it to bring the victim face to face with him. The chain can’t be extended by either party
(Unlike that wh*re Rider or that simpleton Sloth)
Aside from landing your grab, you can use this to move the foe to your desired location. Whoever has the higher movement speed controls where you go if you’re running in opposite directions, and while Lunge’s initial dash leaves much to be desired he’ll build up the momentum he needs soon enough against most characters.
If used in the air this functions as a (Useless) tether, but makes you go into helpless afterwards. Good luck going for suicide KOs. Pressing Side Special again when already chained to someone has Lunge uncuff himself and the foe laglessly.
UP SPECIAL – SECURITY CAMERA
Lunge takes out a security camera hoisted up on a post. The post’s height is just enough so that it reaches the ground if Lunge uses the move in the air and there’s ground under him, though it won’t work if he’s more then double Ganondorf’s height into the air. If he’s on the ground, the pole is double Ganon’s height by default.
This takes a brief .3 seconds to set up, though once it’s set up it records everything that goes on. Whenever a foe performs an attack that you need them to, you won’t have to take a photograph of it thanks to the recording. Unfortunately the camera is very fragile, only 5 stamina, but it’s immune to projectiles and only the actual camera is a hurtbox, not the pole. If you place it so the actual camera is in a location that a foe performed an aerial at in the murder, then this is an excellent tool to bait them into it. Even if the aerial destroys the camera, it’ll still count. The pole doesn’t block projectiles and can be walked through – don’t think Lunge can casually make a wall to hide behind.
Assuming you don’t place the camera as bait, the best choice is generally to put it somewhere out of the way and just keeping the foe the hell away from it with Side Special. While you can’t really defend the camera, Lunge makes it too difficult for the foe to get to it thanks to keeping the foe at close quarters, and even then it’s not like it’s difficult to replace them.
If used in the air with no ground underneath your feet or more then double Ganon’s height off the ground, then this turns into a recovery as Lunge kicks off the camera and leaps off the pole. This boosts him double Ganon’s height into the air and doesn’t put him into helpless. A pretty good recovery, but he can’t use this if he has a Security Camera already put up. After the pole falls off the bottom blast zone when Lunge uses it in recovery, he can use Up Special again, increasing his potential horizontal recovery. The pole falls slower then Lunge before accelerating to fall faster, so no, you can’t stall with it.
GRAB-GAME
GRAB
Lunge barely reaches out at all, just doing a subtle hand motion. The grab is absolutely instantaneous, but you have to be so ridiculously close to the foe in order to land it it’s just stupid. Thankfully this is easy to land in combination with a Side Special.
PUMMEL – CHAIN LINK
Lunge hand-cuffs himself to the foe if not already or takes off the chain if he is. Landing a grab without being linked is rare, but if you do manage it you can still chain them to yourself. Unchaining the foe allows them to actually take the knockback from uthrow.
DOWN THROW - ARREST
Lunge turns the foe around and handcuffs the foe’s arms behind their back. This is an instant KO, but does nothing unless you’ve gone through the long process of understanding the murder and proving that the foe’s done it. If Lunge uses a copied throw on the foe it breaks the link, so you can’t infinite foes by copying their chain grabs.
FORWARD THROW - INTERROGATE
Lunge questions the foe in German gibberish. During the brief lag, you can input any button input to copy it like Down Special. For aerials, press jump, then the input you want. Lunge can’t copy the standard grab, but Civilians are immune to grabs anyway. Most foes will be very hesitant to use the moves they used on the civilian to prevent you from copying them for the reenactment, so this is your tool to get those inputs they won’t cough up.
BACK THROW - TAUNT
Lunge taunts the foe in German gibberish with a smug smile on his face. During the gibberish you can input whatever input you want for the foe to do the attack on you. Unlike the overpowered god that is Envy, Lunge actually gets hit by the attack, and there’s not a thing he can do about it. His Chain Link won’t save him – it breaks when he gets hit by the attack. This may be what you want if you’re playing the victim in the reenactment of the murder, though this can also set up for taking a photo of the foe performing an attack to prove it for the eventual arrest. It’ll still count if you take a picture during the end lag, and even if the move has no end lag to punish with a photo you can just use a Security Camera to get the evidence you need.
UP THROW – BAD COP
Lunge asks something or other in German Gibberish of the foe casually. During this time, Lunge can input 3 button inputs in the same manner as fthrow that he can potentially copy. If the foe inputs anything they respond with their own gibberish and they’re released from the grab instantly with no damage, but Lunge gets the three button inputs.
Assuming the foe decides not to talk, Lunge angrily shouts “Talk!” in German and smacks them for 6%. There’s a brief period here where the foe can press any button input to talk and escape the grab, though now they only have to give up two button inputs. Should they not talk, it repeats, with them only having to give up one button input to escape the last 6%. The third smack does vertical knockback that KOs at 50%, ending the process.
It’s up to the foe whether they want to give Lunge button inputs by talking or take damage, or do somewhat of a compromise. At 50% and above though, Lunge is always guaranteed at least 12% and one button input, as the foe obviously isn’t going to just let themselves die to it.
STANDARDS
NEUTRAL ATTACK – RAPID FIRE
Lunge takes out his pistol with .2 seconds of lag, then with each press of A beyond that he shoots a bullet out of the pistol laglessly. Lunge exits the stance if he goes without firing for .2 seconds or you press shield.
Each bullet has infinite range and are identical to Sheik’s needles in size/movement speed. The catch is Lunge can’t fire another shot until the last one goes off-screen, meaning there’s some end lag to the move. . .But if he actually hits someone, it counts, and he can fire again. The bullets do damage/stun based off how close the foe is to Lunge. At point blank it deals 7% and half a second of hitstun, while a foe half Battlefield away or further won’t take any flinch from it and only 1%. This move combos into itself quite well, but it stops once you push the foe far enough away. If you hit with this, then you can position the foe wherever you want so long as it’s not further then half BF away.
Foes can DI upwards out of this against walls and can do the same if they’re chained to you. Despite this move being better at close range, it doesn’t really benefit from Side Special, it would seem. . .Or does it? This has good shield stun and can combo into itself against them like normal, but it still pushes foes back far enough so that you can’t just spam this against shields to destroy them. If they shield the bullet when they’re chained to you, though, they’ve just bought themselves a broken shield, seeing they can’t DI upwards like usual.
DASHING ATTACK - SPRINT
Lunge increases his movement speed by 1.5X as he dashes forward, his legs kicking out behind him as pitifully low priority hitboxes that do 2% and tiny set knockback. At his default dash speed his legs don’t come up that quickly, but at max speed they’ll come up very quickly. Still, considering that Lunge is running away from the foe he’ll only get in one hit. . .Lunge sprints for .3 seconds before panting for .3 seconds of end lag.
If he’s dragging along a foe he’s handcuffed to with Side Special, though, they’ll keep taking the rapid hits due to being dragged along, and they’ll be pretty helpless to resist wherever you’re taking them, and you’ll be moving there very quickly. An excellent way to force them into position to reenact the crime or get photographic evidence. You can cancel out of this move early via shield once you get the foe to your desired destination, but you’ll experience the end lag anyway.
FORWARD TILT – KILLER’S INSTINCT
Lunge takes out a knife and stabs forward with it. He reaches out slightly less far then Bowser’s ftilt with the same lag, though only the small disjointed knife at the end is a hitbox. The knife deals 6%, but gouges into the foe far enough that it stays in after Lunge stabs it. This does an annoying 2% per second and lasts forever unless the foe stands in place long enough for their idle animation to occur for them to pull it out. This can give Lunge some free leeway to start up a reenactment in the killer’s perspective.
Of course, there’s more to it then that. Once the foe pulls the knife out of their side, they’ll use it in their attacks they used when they killed the civilian, buffing their power by 1.3X (If they aren’t melee attacks, the knife isn’t shown). For attacks where the knife is actually visible, the knife is a disjointed sweetspot with 1.6X the normal power. An excellent way to encourage the foe to use the attacks you so badly need them to.
Lunge doesn’t get a new knife until he gets KOd, but he can still punch forward with ftilt, his whole arm being a hitbox that does 6% and weak knockback.
UP TILT – TAKING NOTES
Lunge takes out his notebook and starts writing down notes in it, giving himself half a second of lag. If Lunge does this move within 5 seconds of a failed reenactment with him playing the killer (This moves counts as interrupting it), then he won’t have to do the last move he did successfully in the failed attempt whenever he attempts it again.
If Lunge presses A before he finishes taking notes, he’ll very quickly throw the notebook upwards. This has surprisingly good priority and range to Lunge’s sides, and the notebook goes up quadruple Ganon’s height over half a second. The notebook deals 17% and set knockback triple Ganon’s height on contact. If the notebook doesn’t hit anyone, it’ll fall back down and Lunge (And only Lunge) can pick it back up, able to use his utilt normally again. If he hits, then the notebook breaks its spine on the foe (Hence the good power/priority), causing the pages to all scatter about, most flying off into the background/foreground. For each move he successfully took notes on, though, there’ll be a page that comes down on the playing field, and if Lunge catches it he still won’t have to do that part of the reenactment again.
If Lunge uses his utilt without his notebook, then he starts piecing it back together. This has 1.2 seconds of lag, but after it’s done the utilt functions normally again.
This move ultimately means Lunge doesn’t have to do everything in the reenactment at once against foes particularly good at pressuring him. Of course, those sorts of foes will be likely to try to interrupt your taking notes, but you’re able to much better defend yourself from here by throwing up the notebook and have a possibility of not losing all your progress.
DOWN TILT – MAGNIFYING GLASS
Lunge takes out his magnifying glass and crouches down as he inspects the ground. Seemingly no hitbox, though Lunge can hold the position as long as he wants and can
keep the magnifying glass out during his crawl. If Lunge inspects all the ground the foe transversed during the murder with his magnifying glass, he won’t have to do the first attack the foe did when he’s reenacting the murder in the killer’s shoes. Entering and coming out of this stance has .15 seconds of lag.
If a foe is directly in front of Lunge when he takes out the magnifying glass, then the magnifying glass that appears when a foe gets sent off-screen but hasn’t gone off the blast zone will appear over them. If they move out of this “Smash Bros magnifying glass”, they’ll be treated as if they went off a blast zone. Considering Lunge has to stay right in front of them in this position where he can’t attack to make the Smash Bros magnifying glass stick around, though, a casual dtilt is all the foe needs to escape. What’s the point for Lunge then? This can force them to use a low attack to hit Lunge for when he needs them to hit him with specific attacks when playing the victim or is recording it with Up Special for evidence. Furthermore, Lunge copies any attacks the foe uses in the Smash Bros. Magnifying Glasses.
Lunge can’t use this attack on foes already grabbed/in hitstun to prevent cheap doubles KOs.
SMASHES
FORWARD SMASH – SHOTGUN BLAST
Lunge takes out a shotgun and fires it forwards. There’s roughly .45 seconds of start lag, certainly not ideal, but it’s possible to hit with. The end lag on the other hand is a pretty ridiculous full second as Lunge takes kickback from the shotgun.
As you might expect, the shotgun is more effective at close range like a real one. The hitbox reaches out as far as half Battlefield from Lunge, but that far out it only does 1% and flinching. At point blank range, the shotgun deals 17-27% and 4.5-7 seconds of hitstun. Pretty insane stuff. Obviously having the foe chained to you via Side Special is ideal, but the fact that this has any lag on it at all will make foes just cancel it with a jab, seeing you can’t space it when you’re chained. Best to make them predict your grab by using it a few times then fsmash. Using the fsmash on a foe already in hitstun from the shotgun will knock them out of their hitstun instantly, leaving them wide open to punish your horrible end lag. Still a possible sacrifice for some damage if you’re attempting to rack up some damage to KO the foe traditionally with one of their own moves. If you’re going for an arrest, though, you can unchain yourself from the foe then quickly start a reenactment while they’re stuck in hitstun.
UP SMASH – WIND-UP PUNCH
Lunge winds up his arm during the charging in an animation similar to DK’s Giant Punch, though his arm is actually a average priority hitbox that does 4% and weak set knockback. Once done charging, Lunge does an uppercut that deals 10% and set knockback based off charge. At max charge it can skyrocket the enemy off the top blast zone to get them in the magnifying glass, but never actually KOs. The move is entirely lagless save .2 seconds of end lag, though considering how the actual attack barely does any knockback with no charge it’s kind of iffy.
Strangely, you can release the A button during this attack and you won’t stop charging. In order to release the charge before it’s done, you have to input another usmash. You can move around and attack while swinging around your arm as a hitbox, though if you use your Down Special in combination with this you won’t be able to do anything else, both Lunge’s hands occupied.
If you swing your arm around like this when a foe is chained to you, the chain will extend out to it’s max length of a third of a Battlefield platform as they get flailed around. The chain keeps them out of range to use most of their attacks on you (Though also out of range for your horrible range to hit them), and considering they’ll constantly be in the air like this most of their attacks with good enough range to reach you are unusable. Even then, they have to out-prioritize Lunge’s arm swinging around. Every time Lunge swings the foe into the ground they take 3% and flinching before being flung back into the air again, potentially interrupting a lot of moves. If you fully “charge” the smash, you’ll fling the foe into the ground thrice.
This allows you to easily take the foe wherever you want when you have them chained, and furthermore forces them to attack with only aerials and Specials, should they have used those on the victim. The uppercut at the end of the usmash (Which will generally be comboed into it if you’re swinging the foe around on a chain) also gives you time to start a reenactment as the foe is sent skyward. Just be sure you take off the chain right before you uppercut them so they actually take the knockback.
The foe is a hitbox as they’re being swung around that does 11% and knockback that kills at 220% to any other foes or traps. This allows you to still position the foe where you want in FFAs while using them as a shield or to use them as a shield against their own traps in 1v1.
DOWN SMASH - BLOCK
Oooohhhh, promising move title, yes? Put away your barf bags, if you please. Lunge isn’t a Punch-Out character.
During the charging Lunge puts his arms in front of himself, bracing himself. If Lunge is hit during this charging, he’ll take 1.3X the knockback of any attacks that hit him but none of the damage. If Lunge actually releases the charge before trying to tank a hit, Lunge dashes forwards half a Battlefield Platform, gaining superarmor to prevent him from taking knockback. There’s .2 seconds of pre-charge lag to the move and grabs still go through the whole thing, so this is far from un-counterable.
This is mainly a move to use to survive the hits you’re forced to take when playing the victim in a reenactment. Use the charging to avoid damage at low percents and use the superarmor at high percents to avoid knockback.
AERIALS
NEUTRAL AERIAL – FAKE OUT
Lunge prepares to do a generic kick or punch. After you do the first input, you can do a second input of the control stick to angle it in any of the four cardinal directions. They all deal roughly 8-12% and average set knockback based on which direction you angle them in, with too much lag to be that usable. .65 seconds is pretty awkward. . .
The thing is though is that the generic animations match the generic animations Lunge does for when he’s copying an enemy’s aerial. You can use this to make the foe think you’re doing a reenactment when you’re not to encourage them to pressure you or to simply confuse them into expecting the copied move and make them air dodge too early.
FORWARD AERIAL – COLD STARE
Kholdstare? What are you going on about? Learn to spell, please, you incessant simpleton. Lunge’s eyes go wide as he stares deep into the depths of your soul. Creepy. This behaves much like the grab in that it’s instantaneous, but the range is point blank. Furthermore, you have to be facing the foe for it to connect. If you successfully make eye contact, it interrupts whatever the foe was doing and prevents them from using the move. The main purpose of this is to try to limit your foe’s moveset to try to encourage them to use the attacks they did on the civilian. This doesn’t simply lock the input though – they can still do it, it’s just it’ll do nothing other then give them lag. How is this any better? If the foe can trick Lunge into using Cold Stare on the same move again, they’ll get the button input back. The fact that this is aerial means you’ll mostly be disabling other aerials, and when the foe has no usable aerials left there’s little they can do to resist your usmash.
BACK AERIAL – SWING
Lunge does a quick swinging punch that leaves him facing the opposite way he was originally. His fist reaches out a decent ways and the hitbox lingers a bit, but it gets smaller very quickly as Lunge swings it away. Either way it’s just 7% and knockback that kills at 200%. . .
When the foe is chained to you, they get jerked around to be on the opposite side of you. Dash and Usmash can’t really do this and neither can be used in the air, so this is a fairly helpful technique for positioning the foe – just be sure they don’t hit you as you swing them past yourself.
UP AERIAL – AUTO FIRE
Lunge takes out his pistol and throws it double Ganon’s height into the air. Once it reaches that height, it starts firing off shots upwards with identical power/speed as in the jab, getting pushed down Kirby’s height with each shot. The bullets do enough upward knockback to prevent foes from falling if they get caught in rapid fire, but the foe can’t DI to the sides to escape this – they have to DI up. If they want to get out early, they have to try to out-prioritze a bullet as it gets shot up at them with a typical dair or nair. Obviously a nice way to make them use those moves and potentially even to position them for it. Lunge can’t use his uair or jab again until the gun hits the ground and he goes over to pick it up. If it goes off the bottom blast zone he gets it back in 20 seconds.
DOWN AERIAL – SLAM DOWN
Lunge does a downward swing of his arm over the course of .35 seconds for a weak meteor smash that does 7%. If you press A again like in a neutral A combo, Lunge stomps downwards with identical properties to Ganon’s dair. Unfortunately the first part of the move generally prevents you from hitting with the stomp, even if you hit with the arm swing it’ll generally knock the foe too far away to be stomped.
Of course, if the foe is chained to you the knockback from the first part of the move won’t be a problem, but considering they’ll hardly take any of the knockback of the stomp, what’s the point? Well, if you knock a foe into the ground with the arm swing they’ll go into their downed position, and the stomp has a grab hitbox against downed foes. If the foe tries to get up normally or do a get-up attack Lunge will counter and stomp down harder for 8%. If they roll away, they escape the “grab” and Lunge trips. Lunge can jump off the foe at any time, though, and if he predicts which way the foe rolls correctly it’s quite easy to land an fair (or grab, but that’s easy enough considering the foe is probably chained to you).
FINAL SMASH – HARDCORE INTERROGATION
Lunge turns to face the camera and swings out his hand-cuff like with Side Special, though it homes in on the foe. Essentially, if the foe is within a third of a Battlefield Platform when Lunge activates the FS, they’re caught in it. The range isn’t that great, but it’s in a nice circle around Lunge and there’s very low lag.
If Lunge catches someone, then a dialogue box with some potential answers pop-up that the victim has to use. The dialogue box shows questions asking what the foe did at certain points in the match (Not just when they were killing the civillian), and there’s a good 4 choices to pick from every time so it’s hard to just get lucky. Lunge asks 10 questions, and every time the victim get a question wrong he smacks them for 17%. Get 6 questions wrong and Lunge arrests you for an instant KO.
PLAYSTYLE
Considering the foe chooses what you have to do, Lunge plays responsively in the first phase of the game. If Ganon went over and used his utilt and neutral B to kill the victim, then you’re obviously going to have to do the reenactment yourself, probably using your utilt so you don’t have to use two ridiculously laggy moves back to back. If the foe used a whole mess of quick attacks, then you’re probably better off just letting yourself be hit by them and playing the victim, seeing the foe might actually use these attacks without being prodded and you’ll have a good few moves to copy if you want to do a reenactment as the killer.
If you’re playing the killer, then you’ll still want to chain link yourself to the foe if only so you can get in grabs for more button inputs that you need. Damage racking also becomes more of a priority, as once the foe gets 50% the uthrow becomes an upgraded version of the fthrow, essentially. Once you have the moves you need, stun them with a shotgun blast/uppercut them with usmash/break their shield with your jab, then start the reenactment. If they come back down too quickly, use utilt. If the notebook gets destroyed, spin the foe around with usmash so they can’t interrupt you putting it back together. This also helps in getting button inputs with Down Special.
When playing the victim or going for photographic/recorded evidence, you’re playing a positioning game. You’re not positioning yourself – oh no. You’re positioning the foe. Drag them around with a chain link while using usmash/dash attack to keep them from resisting, then grab them once you’ve got them in the desired area and force them to use a necessary attack with bthrow, assuming you’ve got a security camera (If the foe is being dragged around, good luck to them destroying it). If the fast moves you need to be hit by aren’t moves they use regularly, then try to just bait the foe into them by powering it up with ftilt and disabling other key moves in their arsenal with fair. If the move is a broken one like Snake’s utilt you don’t want to gamble with, disable it with fair. With it disabled you can still force them to use it via bthrow without any fear of damage/knockback.
If all else fails you can abandon your mechanic and simply try to fight like a normal character who revolves around copying moves. This obviously best works against foes with close range moves to complement Lunge’s existing moveset. Lunge has plenty of tools to be offensive – he won’t want to steal any of that camping defensive nonsense. He’d be much too far behind by the time he finally got the tools to do it on the same level as the foe. The main thing he wants are KO moves seeing he can damage rack decently fine. If you do choose to go off the deep end and abandon the law, make sure you do it subtly and pretend you’re still just trying to do a reenactment in the killer’s shoes. . .Little do they know you’ve BECOME the killer as you pull out their own KO move on them.
MATCH-UPS
VS. KING DEDEDE
42.5/57.5, Dedede’s favor
Dedede can chain grab you, okay. You unfortunately can’t do it back to him due to your horrible grab range even if you do copy his dthrow, but the fact Dedede’s so very grab happy means he’ll be staying right in your comfort zone, and your grab will come out long before his. Granted, he can do slight “camping” by abusing his long grab range, but you can still just use your other close range moves like your shotgun and pistol. Dedede will still get in plenty of grabs and he’s the one who gets to force approaches with his Side B, though.
Dedede will probably use moves like his dtilt, jab, and usmash on the victim – nothing he’s too fond of but things he can still easily kill them with. This means you’ll mainly be playing the victim in your reenactments this match-up, though playing the killer can turn the tables on Dedede and force him to approach into your range. Lunge’s damage will go up fast – try and disable Dedede’s utilt/bair early on if at all possible. Sure, Dedede can just save these moves for the KO, but without using those moves or the ones he used to kill the victim he’s left with little more then his grab, which puts him where you want. Dedede’s grab is broken enough that this isn’t a game breaker for him, but Lunge can win if he has good prediction.
VS. CAIRNE
70/30, Lunge’s favor
Cairne is generally a melee combatant which means his moveset can potentially mesh well with Lunge’s, but the main highlight is to copy his dair then destroy his pit and KO him in the process. Considering Cairne doesn’t know which moves you’ve copied, he’ll probably become paranoid whenever you’re in the air and force you out of it ASAP or use the dair and destroy the pit himself. Cairne struggles to land his grab due to it being so insanely fast – there’s simply nothing to punish with a grab counter, so the only way he’ll land it is stuns. Cairne’s dsmash is also fairly useless here due to the fact that most of his important moves for working his mechanic have grab hitboxes, and some parts of it just require him to make Cairne do things – not hit him himself.
If Lunge gets ahead on the first stock, he can gamble and attempt to copy as many moves as possible before Cairne goes down, then use his newfound moveset to either finish off Cairne quickly or have more then enough moves to successfully do a reenactment. Of course this can backfire and Lunge can lose all his moves by being KOd first, so this isn’t a particularly effective strategy. The fact Lunge can potentially pull this out of the blue though isn’t helping things for Cairne.
VS. STRANGELOVE
60/40, Lunge’s favor
Strangelove can place bombs over where he did the actual attacks in the reenactment to prevent Lunge from forcing him there. Yes, Lunge can use his dsmash superarmor to go past the bombs and deactivate them, but Strangelove will near inevitably have them set-up so that they set off a chain reaction to blow up the doomsday device so fun times can be had by all.
Lunge has to prevent this from happening by constantly pressuring Strangelove, and considering Strangelove will have had to of used his few actual attacks to kill the civilian he won’t be left with much of anything to repel Lunge away. Running away isn’t an option – you’re chained to him, so you’re inevitably forced to actually use your close quarters attacks. Lunge laughs at this considering he doesn’t mind taking the weak hits at all and he doesn’t even have to force Strangelove to use them. If Strangelove does get away he can make it hell for Lunge to get back to him due to his fail approaching with moves like usmash and camping with his turret, and then he’ll inevitably find the time to set up the traps he needs to. Lunge has to keep up the pressure here. It can go either way, but considering when things go Strangelove’s way things often are left up to chance Lunge wins more often.
VS. STANLEY
35/65, Stanley’s favor
Stanley’s a rather slow trap character meaning Lunge can pressure him very easily while figuring out what he needs to, but the thing is that Stanley can use his mist to obscure what he’s doing so Lunge is absolutely clueless as to what he needs to copy. Thankfully only some of Stanley’s attacks will be obscured as the knockback sends the civilian out of the mist and Stanley is forced to show what attacks he’s doing, but that still leaves 2 or so obscured attacks for you to dechiper. You can eliminate one of them with dtilt, but again, one attack is a complete mystery. If nothing else you’ll know –where- he used it so you can just use all of Stanley’s attacks in that area until you find the culprit.
So yes, ultimately you must copy Stanley’s entire moveset, checking to see if you’ve found what you need every so often. As said, Lunge can pressure Stanley well and copy a lot of moves, but it’s not like Lunge actually wants any of these campy trappy moves he’s taking from Stanley – it’s just business for Lunge, but Stanley is still racking up damage. Yeah, he won’t get up mist clouds too well while Lunge is pressuring him and copying moves, but when Lunge goes over to where Stanley killed the civilian Stanley will inevitably set up the mist he needs and get up –more- damage, forcing Lunge to approach, which he hates. If Lunge gets to Stanley he can force him out of his mist pretty easily by moving him around with a chain link, but he’ll take damage getting there. Stanley struggles for the KO in general and all the more with Lunge’s dsmash, but he gets damage much faster then Lunge finds out the mystery.
VS. ABRA
100/0, FMA’s favor
VS. TAC
60/40, Lunge’s favor
This is why Tac’s moves ALL DO 5% before he copies any button inputs. He can use his many, many copies to kill the civilian, and considering how they all have near identical animations Lunge will rather be at a loss to figure out what the hell he has to copy. The direction Tac’s paw went out only eliminates so many inputs. Lunge can still copy Tac’s generic copies even if he loses the input by covering it up with one of Lunge’s – better Lunge take one of Tac’s copies then get a duplicate of one of his own button inputs. If he accidentally hits Tac with one of Tac’s copies, nothing happens beyond the obligatory 5%. In any case, though, Lunge is going to take forever to figure out this case and get a warrant for arrest, and Tac doesn’t cough up any inputs for Lunge to take matters into his own hands and ignore the law.
While things aren’t ideal for Lunge here, they’re even worse for Tac – a very hellish match-up for both sides. Tac has no civilian mechanic, thus he has no way to use Lunge’s moveset to KO. He’ll get Lunge’s moveset in record time by using Lunge’s own copying inputs, but he has nothing to use it with. Granted, he can make Lunge’s life even harder here by locking vital inputs like Side Special with fair, and if he disables Lunge’s recovery he can possibly go for the gimp with dair, or just a simple suicide KO by chaining Lunge to himself.
Katapultar
Smash Lord
[size=+3]INSPECTOR LUNGE[/size]
I can very well say that there's going to be a bit of a argument over the mechanic. If I were to argue over it, I'd say the civillian spawning in the place of Lunge is..well...you're kind of wrong when you say that the foe can just kill the civillian in 4.5 seconds. I understand how having 25HP works, but it's not fair to say that the foe just loses a stock. Apart from that I have nothing else to complain about the great mechanic. Others will complain about it in many, many ways.
The mechanic itself promises a great set, memorising the foe's attacks. Sounds bloody tricky, especially in FFAs. He'd be very hard to play as, kind of like Stangelove (I don't have anything against that though) You did give another option for KOing, which is a good thing.
Sorry about the lack of comment, Im not really in a total commenting spirit right now. From what I gather, the set's got a well played mechanic. Well done.
I can very well say that there's going to be a bit of a argument over the mechanic. If I were to argue over it, I'd say the civillian spawning in the place of Lunge is..well...you're kind of wrong when you say that the foe can just kill the civillian in 4.5 seconds. I understand how having 25HP works, but it's not fair to say that the foe just loses a stock. Apart from that I have nothing else to complain about the great mechanic. Others will complain about it in many, many ways.
The mechanic itself promises a great set, memorising the foe's attacks. Sounds bloody tricky, especially in FFAs. He'd be very hard to play as, kind of like Stangelove (I don't have anything against that though) You did give another option for KOing, which is a good thing.
Sorry about the lack of comment, Im not really in a total commenting spirit right now. From what I gather, the set's got a well played mechanic. Well done.
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 625
Well Katapultar was right about an arguement ensueing. Second comment, and theres contreversy.
My first question is: hat happens if Lunge doesn't do the reanactment in the begining?
Besides that I think the mechanic is too thick. While the camera, security, copying, etc. would have been find, creating such a structured beginning to a match seems...restricting. You make the foe play your way as the only way. It gives Lunge too much power.
Of course, Otherwise the moves were good, and minus the whole crime scene element, with some tweaking, this could be an extraordinary set.
Then again, I'm just a lowly MYMer from the cracks, unsure if critiquing the great MasterWarlord is even safe. Take what I have said with little bearing, as I could be completely off with my assumptions and I could be interpretting this moveset comletely wrong.
My first question is: hat happens if Lunge doesn't do the reanactment in the begining?
Besides that I think the mechanic is too thick. While the camera, security, copying, etc. would have been find, creating such a structured beginning to a match seems...restricting. You make the foe play your way as the only way. It gives Lunge too much power.
Of course, Otherwise the moves were good, and minus the whole crime scene element, with some tweaking, this could be an extraordinary set.
Then again, I'm just a lowly MYMer from the cracks, unsure if critiquing the great MasterWarlord is even safe. Take what I have said with little bearing, as I could be completely off with my assumptions and I could be interpretting this moveset comletely wrong.
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,911
The mechanic is indeed very complex. I’m definitely not going to try to hide that. Extremely Unsmash set, possibly more-so then Tycoon. Unlike Tycoon, Lunge is a lot more playable what with all of his actual attacks. He’s somewhat comparable to, say, Thief.
As for killing the civilian in 4.5 seconds, they spawn right in front of the foe. That’s 2 Fox usmashes. 2 seconds aren’t even up yet. The main reason the time limit so low is they actually are forced to do it rather then spending 5 years setting up while Lunge can’t do anything about it.
Outside those 4.5 seconds, I wouldn’t say he’s particularly “restricting to the foe”, but restricting moves isn’t a new thing. Thief and Cannoli say hi. I was definitely going out of my way to make sure he could actually do well what he does, seeing most characters with a mechanic this complicated are instantly doomed to garbage tier. Fair is the only thing that completely eliminates things - there's only a specific place they're not allowed to use the moves they did in the murder.
No, no, thanks for commenting. I was fully expecting most people to not grasp everything in this set, seeing a lot of people didn’t understand the much simpler Kel’Thuzad.
As for killing the civilian in 4.5 seconds, they spawn right in front of the foe. That’s 2 Fox usmashes. 2 seconds aren’t even up yet. The main reason the time limit so low is they actually are forced to do it rather then spending 5 years setting up while Lunge can’t do anything about it.
Outside those 4.5 seconds, I wouldn’t say he’s particularly “restricting to the foe”, but restricting moves isn’t a new thing. Thief and Cannoli say hi. I was definitely going out of my way to make sure he could actually do well what he does, seeing most characters with a mechanic this complicated are instantly doomed to garbage tier. Fair is the only thing that completely eliminates things - there's only a specific place they're not allowed to use the moves they did in the murder.
No, no, thanks for commenting. I was fully expecting most people to not grasp everything in this set, seeing a lot of people didn’t understand the much simpler Kel’Thuzad.
darth meanie
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 452
Inspector Lunge
What an incredibly off-putting moveset. Everything about this set is so complex and contrived, I can't imagine anyone ever actually being able to play this to the full extent of the sets ability. The character also has the ability to copy any move in the entire game, despite being a completely normal human being, which is completely ridiculous. Moves that don't actually do damage are the norm, and every other move has five or so different mechanics attached to it, the Up and Down Tilt being especially egregious examples.
So, Darth Meanie being Darth Meanie and hating on MW's movesets like normal? Not quite, because Inspector Lunge is easily a Super Vote candidate for me.
Why? Because, as hideously complex and unsmash as he is, he works. And he doesn't just work, he works well. The Side Special is an absolutely brilliant extension on the normal grab and plays perfectly into his playstyle, which is rich and deep as well. MW took one of the most unworkable, creative ideas I've ever seen for KOing and made it work, and work great.
Everything from mindgames to alternate KO options to strategies and ways to slowly work his way to success has been carefully put in. He also avoids many of the glaring weaknesses that the mechanic creates through clever moves like the Side Special, Up Special, and Down Smash.
As much as I abhor how convoluted this moveset is, getting it to work, at least from a purely mechanical perspective, as well as it does, is quite a feat. Lunge certainly is rough, and could use greater clarity and more concise, clear control, but beneath all of the confusion is a truly engaging, unique moveset.
Well done MW. Please don't do anything like this ever again.
What an incredibly off-putting moveset. Everything about this set is so complex and contrived, I can't imagine anyone ever actually being able to play this to the full extent of the sets ability. The character also has the ability to copy any move in the entire game, despite being a completely normal human being, which is completely ridiculous. Moves that don't actually do damage are the norm, and every other move has five or so different mechanics attached to it, the Up and Down Tilt being especially egregious examples.
So, Darth Meanie being Darth Meanie and hating on MW's movesets like normal? Not quite, because Inspector Lunge is easily a Super Vote candidate for me.
Why? Because, as hideously complex and unsmash as he is, he works. And he doesn't just work, he works well. The Side Special is an absolutely brilliant extension on the normal grab and plays perfectly into his playstyle, which is rich and deep as well. MW took one of the most unworkable, creative ideas I've ever seen for KOing and made it work, and work great.
Everything from mindgames to alternate KO options to strategies and ways to slowly work his way to success has been carefully put in. He also avoids many of the glaring weaknesses that the mechanic creates through clever moves like the Side Special, Up Special, and Down Smash.
As much as I abhor how convoluted this moveset is, getting it to work, at least from a purely mechanical perspective, as well as it does, is quite a feat. Lunge certainly is rough, and could use greater clarity and more concise, clear control, but beneath all of the confusion is a truly engaging, unique moveset.
Well done MW. Please don't do anything like this ever again.
Junahu
Smash Ace
Inspector Gadget: Why, this is the second time you've crowbarred an excellent idea into a form that plain doesn't suit it. I truly wish you weren't so absolutely determined to have 4 specials, a jab, 3 tilts, 5 aerials, a grab, pummel and 4 throws. Because even more so than Tycoon, brawl inputs do not work with this idea, regardless of its rough brillance
To answer you worries from the chat, my impressions of this set are both A and B. It's impossibly obtuse, and yet you're experimenting with the very foundations of Smash, which I heartily approve of.
I also want to know, how do you canonically explain why, when the foe doesn't explicitly kill an innocent person quickly, they instantly die?
Also, how does TAC factor ino this? It doesn't seem like the civilians have attacks, so TAC would be replacing his own attacks with nothing, and you cannot be hit by "nothing", hence Lunge cannot reenact the crime as the victim
To answer you worries from the chat, my impressions of this set are both A and B. It's impossibly obtuse, and yet you're experimenting with the very foundations of Smash, which I heartily approve of.
I also want to know, how do you canonically explain why, when the foe doesn't explicitly kill an innocent person quickly, they instantly die?
Also, how does TAC factor ino this? It doesn't seem like the civilians have attacks, so TAC would be replacing his own attacks with nothing, and you cannot be hit by "nothing", hence Lunge cannot reenact the crime as the victim
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,911
What alien controller do you wish to use to play Lunge? I can certainly see how an alternate control scheme would make sense for Tycoon, but Lunge is much more playable then something like him. Granted, he still suffers from the same problem that Strangelove does which I know you consider an important issue, but I'd certainly say he's much more playable then Lucy who you were fine with.
I am making a statement about the inherent evil of every living being and the pretense, a facade to get along that gets torn down as soon as a guilt-free opportunity presents itself.
Tac match-up added.
Junahu
Smash Ace
Hmm, I do see your point. Lounge needs to be able to use every attack his foe can use, in order to reenact the murder. Thus he has to use Smash controls. What was I smoking yesterday?
So, bearing that in mind, my only actual problem controlwise boils down to the fact Lounge's most important attack is his D-Throw. I know you love your D-Throws, and I do appreciate the added depth to grabs Lounge gives, but you know how much I hate moves that do nothing unless some arcane criterion is met beforehand. This is the kind of thing that could have been part and parcel of the Side-Special. At least that way, someone might actually accidentally discover how to KO as Lounge, other than playing him like CAT.
The obtuse objective itself, and the dearth of audio/visual feedback are more difficult problems. I'm not even sure it's possible for Lounge's mission to be communicated to the player, without being intrusive and match-ruining about it. An ingame tutorial would probably work, as it would for Strangelouvre, but that kind of stuff spits in the face of Smash's pick-up-and-play quality.
And once again I am beaten by a fortune cookie.
Ok, cool. Thanks. Now do one for Tycoon
And finally, because I just remembered that this exact same criticism was made about Joe Calzaghe; Lunge can taunt absolutely any attack out of the foe!?
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2008
- Messages
- 2,911
I'll drink to that. If nothing else I should've made the dthrow have a secondary function when the criteria wasn't met (preferably more then a generic kick thrown in), and he indeed would've been a lot more intuitive if it was part of Side Special. Probably would make the most sense if when he landed S Spec when the criteria was met that he'd arrest them.
This is definitely a very wacky idea, though I did my best to make it work at all. I doubt the possibility of making it intuitive enough to get to Smash's standards, though that's what you get with such an unsmash idea.
(Shock) It'd be a pretty boring MU anyway. Lunge is too good at pressuring. . .And can Tycoon even kill the civillian in time? I guess he'd have to use the grab to force them off the blast zone. It'd be very tigh- oh wait, civillians are immune to grabs. I guess he'd have to make a souveiner stall and use an umbrella, but the shop would take too long to make.Ok, cool. Thanks. Now do one for Tycoon
I was annoyed about that before you added the taunting animation in and it sort of just. . .Happened. Y'know?
darth meanie
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 452
What I get for not checking to see if there were any new posts. MW Ninja'd me half an hour ago (ONO)
Lunge vs Tycoon 100/0
Tycoon cannot do anything to the civilian before the 4.5 seconds are up. The Tycoon dies, and the civilian respawns. Repeat ad nauseum.
Unlike other 100/0 Match-Ups, the Lunge player has to do no more than simply select his character and decide which alt costume he'd prefer, because he'll never even go on stage. It is impossible for Lunge to lose even if he tries.
Lunge vs Tycoon 100/0
Tycoon cannot do anything to the civilian before the 4.5 seconds are up. The Tycoon dies, and the civilian respawns. Repeat ad nauseum.
Unlike other 100/0 Match-Ups, the Lunge player has to do no more than simply select his character and decide which alt costume he'd prefer, because he'll never even go on stage. It is impossible for Lunge to lose even if he tries.
Lunge: This set is similar to Romero in a way. Complex, multi-layered moveset pulled off brilliantly. It does take a few read-throughs to get the right feel for Lunge, but once you understand the mechanic, the whole set comes together amazingly. While I don't feel Lunge has the best flow in the world, it doesn't bog him down at all. Why? Because as incredibly unSmash as he is, Lunge actually stands out in a 'fun' way, unlike RCT. Within the moveset are some of the most brilliant move concepts to date. Particular favorites of mine include Side Special, as well as the interrogation attacks. Also, he's just pulled off...so damn well, not missing a beat with any attacks, and having ingenius move interactions to keep him interesting. While I could never see his chart playstyle working in the game, Lunge is easily your best so far, and possibly the best this contest.
KingK.Rool
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 1,810
I don't really like Lunge.
The set's the very image of impracticality. A vast majority of his attacks are incredibly specific and their uses are not only obscure - Junahu's complaint on Strangelove be amplified tenfold - but also kind of stretches. An attack like Forward Tilt feels like it just needed to be more interesting than a plain old knife stab, but the character didn't really have anything to work with, so you just mashed the effect in there. I mean, Wind Up Punch? Really? Of course it's integral to his playstyle, it's still a stretch.
That's my first complaint. My second is, of course, that the set is alien. Alien set. At this point, you're not even playing a game that's conceivably possible. Most of the attacks read more like short stories or something than actual attacks, with twists and symbolism (you can read symbolism into anything) and subtext. In addition to a nigh-incomprehensible batch of attacks, you have to deal with one of the most tricky mechanics I've seen yet and any number of stolen attacks - which you have to integrate into your game?
This is more an exercise in shoehorning than a set. I can respect why it is and will be popular - your playstyle section makes it all sound very cool, mostly because it is - but it's so far removed from everything else in the contest that I just can't reconcile it. Less complex than Lucy? Please. Lucy is a fairly standard trap/stage manipulation character once you use her DSpec with mindgame potential if it's turned off. Less complex than RCT? Next to this, he looks like a bread-and-butter trap character, unsmash but painfully simple. Less complex than Romero? Zombies are straightforward summons, we just have plenty of ways to manipulate them, all of which can be tested in a matter of minutes. Figuring out the ins and outs of Lunge, even with a tutorial, would be impossible.
Now, don't get me wrong - the idea is very nifty, that can't be denied. But calling it Warlord's best? Ludicrous. Insane. Practically sacreligious. I remember wyvern and a few others saying the same thing about RCT, and look at how we all think of him now. I reckon you're going to regret this set before the contest is out, Warlord.
EDIT: And Tycoon could just create a security guard and march him forward. It'd be tight, sure, but provided there are no obstacles on the stage and the civilian doesn't walk the wrong way, I think he could pull it off.
EDIT AGAIN: I feel bad for not having any "constructive" criticism. Makes it seem like I just read the playstyle section, doesn't it? What if the foe didn't do three different things during the crime? Someone like Fox could probably just stand there and mash off Blaster 25 times. What are you going to take pictures of now?
Also, I'm going to take a note out of Junahu's book (it's a pun, get it?) and mention that the tilt inputs and the smash inputs really could have been swapped. A few of them would need tweaking, sure, but it feels jarring to have tilts that are much more complex than the smashes.
And on another tangent, that Side Special? Brilliant, it is, but couldn't most characters just grab you as soon as you started trying to tug them around? If you're close enough to land your own pathetic grab, it stands to reason that they'll try to do so as soon as you turn around and try to run or jump or use any of the attacks that tug them about.
And lastly, I figure most Lunge players, after missing photos and reenactments by a hair's distance, after forgetting a crucial attack so many times, after flubbing a crucial steal by accidentally taking the wrong attack, an easy mistake to make when you're put on the spot, would eventually just say "To hell with this" and go main Marth.
The set's the very image of impracticality. A vast majority of his attacks are incredibly specific and their uses are not only obscure - Junahu's complaint on Strangelove be amplified tenfold - but also kind of stretches. An attack like Forward Tilt feels like it just needed to be more interesting than a plain old knife stab, but the character didn't really have anything to work with, so you just mashed the effect in there. I mean, Wind Up Punch? Really? Of course it's integral to his playstyle, it's still a stretch.
That's my first complaint. My second is, of course, that the set is alien. Alien set. At this point, you're not even playing a game that's conceivably possible. Most of the attacks read more like short stories or something than actual attacks, with twists and symbolism (you can read symbolism into anything) and subtext. In addition to a nigh-incomprehensible batch of attacks, you have to deal with one of the most tricky mechanics I've seen yet and any number of stolen attacks - which you have to integrate into your game?
This is more an exercise in shoehorning than a set. I can respect why it is and will be popular - your playstyle section makes it all sound very cool, mostly because it is - but it's so far removed from everything else in the contest that I just can't reconcile it. Less complex than Lucy? Please. Lucy is a fairly standard trap/stage manipulation character once you use her DSpec with mindgame potential if it's turned off. Less complex than RCT? Next to this, he looks like a bread-and-butter trap character, unsmash but painfully simple. Less complex than Romero? Zombies are straightforward summons, we just have plenty of ways to manipulate them, all of which can be tested in a matter of minutes. Figuring out the ins and outs of Lunge, even with a tutorial, would be impossible.
Now, don't get me wrong - the idea is very nifty, that can't be denied. But calling it Warlord's best? Ludicrous. Insane. Practically sacreligious. I remember wyvern and a few others saying the same thing about RCT, and look at how we all think of him now. I reckon you're going to regret this set before the contest is out, Warlord.
EDIT: And Tycoon could just create a security guard and march him forward. It'd be tight, sure, but provided there are no obstacles on the stage and the civilian doesn't walk the wrong way, I think he could pull it off.
EDIT AGAIN: I feel bad for not having any "constructive" criticism. Makes it seem like I just read the playstyle section, doesn't it? What if the foe didn't do three different things during the crime? Someone like Fox could probably just stand there and mash off Blaster 25 times. What are you going to take pictures of now?
Also, I'm going to take a note out of Junahu's book (it's a pun, get it?) and mention that the tilt inputs and the smash inputs really could have been swapped. A few of them would need tweaking, sure, but it feels jarring to have tilts that are much more complex than the smashes.
And on another tangent, that Side Special? Brilliant, it is, but couldn't most characters just grab you as soon as you started trying to tug them around? If you're close enough to land your own pathetic grab, it stands to reason that they'll try to do so as soon as you turn around and try to run or jump or use any of the attacks that tug them about.
And lastly, I figure most Lunge players, after missing photos and reenactments by a hair's distance, after forgetting a crucial attack so many times, after flubbing a crucial steal by accidentally taking the wrong attack, an easy mistake to make when you're put on the spot, would eventually just say "To hell with this" and go main Marth.
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
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Bah. I thought you'd like him, considering you liked the very "meh" Tycoon.I don't really like Lunge.
Well yeah. I could make it a generic detective with heavyweight muscly status if you prefer, but nothing here is particularly OOC for Lunge outside the blatant prop usage of the aerial Up Special. Ftilt was made solely for that "secondary" effect and was one of the earlier inputs.
This set is not trying to be Smash. I thought we'd established this?
. . .That sounds like just about any MYM set ever until you get to the part with the stolen attacks, which doesn't sound particularly complicated IMO but not something I can exactly "prove" or "defend".
Well yeah, he's more unsmash then them, but once somebody realizes how he works he's much more PLAYABLE. I don't care if he's impossible to actually implement into the game, most MYM sets already are. Lunge is actually very offensive and has plenty of actual attacks, and isn't a trap character with no attacks who's running for the entire match.
Kupa called it my best this contest. He's not saying it's better then the unholy trinity of MYM 6. Why don't we actually get my own opinion, hmm? I don't consider it my best, but at this point I really don't have much preference among my sets (Or at least my three most recent). Don't make me choose between my babies.
Anyway, honestly. Tycoon is, indeed, a generic trap character. Nobody would ever play him beyond messing with him, and his "flow" was essentially "lol set as many traps as possible". Lunge flows much better then Tycoon could ever hope to and has a far more unique concept behind him.
Though really, I didn't expect this set to be well recieved. Regardless of my liking it, I expected it to be flushed away. Ironically, I expected you to be among the few to like it, considering it could be described as a mash-up of Thief and Tycoon in terms of target audience.
Then you take a picture of him shooting his blaster three times. (Rolleyes)
Dtilt probably should've been a smash, but I honestly didn't care about that considering how unsmash the set was already, and the smashes all rely on charging heavily.
The whole Side Special/close range thing could've made for a decent set of it's own, I reckon. God forbid I actually make a character who DOESN'T have range that's good or at least above average. Anyway, you forget that the chain makes the range not matter for the grab. Lunge's dash attack defends him from behind, and the usmash prevents the foe from just grabbing as he swings them into the air.
Since so many MYM characters are so very easy to learn, yes? I'd like to keep the ability to actually attack, tyvm. Kthxbai.
KingK.Rool
Smash Lord
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- Nov 26, 2005
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- 1,810
I was conflicted on Tycoon, and still am, but the really notable difference is that one is complex because his source material is complex and the other is complex because he wants to be as creative as possible.
Oh, I don't doubt you meant the knife to stick in them from the start, but the way you do it makes it come off as forced and strained.
Everybody tries to be Smash.
No, no. Nowadays most sets have a lot of straightforward, simple attacks, or at least attacks that are pretty easy to figure out in a vacuum. Lunge's are difficult enough even on their own, let alone when all taken together to make a functioning unit. There's just too many layers of strategy here, and anyway most MYM characters can be played by simply rushing button inputs if you want to.
I can agree with this, except the part where most MYM sets are impossible to implement. In this contest, we've got Strangelove (who could be simplified quite easily with tweaks) and Spadefox Remake (whose attacks are all instantly apparent once you test them) and a bunch of sets that aren't really all that unfeasible. Hell, look at Kel. Summons are not inconceivable, nor is a simple numbers-based mechanic.
Tycoon might not have flow - Lunge really is a flowchart - but he's straightforward. And he's definitely not a generic trap character, little factors like the claw and the money mechanic make sure of that.
I'm unpredictable! (SMIRK)
What if he walks a bit, then uses a single Smash? Would you take a picture of the Smash twice or the walking twice? If a character went through a whole chain of attacks, could you just take three pictures of him in mid-jump? It's all very vague.
Fair.
Also fair.
Yes! If I want to play Zinger, I'll play Zinger by buzzing around and testing all of his attacks. Then I'll figure him out and play each match by buzzing around and keeping to the air and so on, changing my gameplay slightly against heavyweight or lightweights or what-have-you. Lunge makes you redefine your whole game based on your opponent's decisions at the start of each and every match. I reckon that makes him both impractical and underpowered.
Plus without a tutorial nobody would have any clue what their objective is. Not even Strangelove has that going for him.
MasterWarlord
Smash Champion
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- Aug 24, 2008
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"Creative as possible?". This isn't a MYM 4 set. If anything it has too much playstyle as it's apparantely a flowchart playstyle somehow. Lunge's moves manipulate his mechanic and add to his playstyle. The mechanic is just so complex that manipulating it by definition is complex.
I could hide the fact that there's an actual attack in there if you'd prefer. You seem to like characters with no way of defending themselves or any attacks whatsoever.
Nobody tries to be Smash. Smash is horrible. Most just try to avoid being blatantly unsmash.
If you can play well with a MYM set by button mashing, it's a horrible set that should be negative super voted. It means the set has no playstlye whatsoever and is blatantly overpowered. Lunge's individual attacks don't feel that mind boggingly complex outside the ocassional one like dtilt. Nothing particularly notable compared to the usual.
Remember those times when we actually went to those crappy Smash fan-game developers? We had to simplify freaking BALD BULL.
Tycoon is the definitive reason of what's wrong about trap characters - he's just dancing around the stage setting up hoping that foes fall into traps with no way to defend himself.
*Insane
*Super Votes Thief then picks Mushroom and Scyther over him*
*Shrug* Sure. I could elaborate on it for five years, but I rather like how concise the set ended up turning out. Would you really care to read an extra paragraph for that?
Fair is a very simple move by MYM standards, regardless of it being crucial to the playstyle.
. . .What about it?
He's already impractical. Ridiculous learning curve /=/ underpowered. I don't think you grasp that concept. Balance assumes both people are of equal skill, remember? Since Ganondorf is clearly so low because he has such a high learning curve. Few people would play him obviously, but that'd just make less people famaliar with how to play against him.
But what I'd like to focus on here is the fact that you admit his game changes every match. Whatever happened to the flowchart playstyle, hmm? Lunge is very much forced to vary things up. Branches in a playstyle now means flowchart? Morton's definintive anti flow-chart would like to have a word with you.
Provided without a tutorial nobody would have any clue how all these move interactions work in MYM, much less like Sloth. People would discover move interactions month after release and call them "advanced techs" without tutorials.
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