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Make Your Move 17: Next contest begins March the 24th; get your Iron MYM'er 1st day sets ready!

ForwardArrow

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
503
Toca I'm going to need to ask you to please stop asking for help on your set in the thread, because at this point you're completely diverting attention away from everything else posted in the last few pages. I'm not even speaking for myself here as I've at least had some conversations about Mordekaiser in private, but sets like Franky, L'Belle, and DJ Octavio are pretty neglected right now. The discussion we're having isn't even particularly improving your set so much as fixing minor technical issues that will change very few people's evaluation of your set, if anyone's, as for me I simply didn't find the ideas compelling and the writing to be really hard to get through. It'd honestly be best for you to just work on a new set at this point.

Franky
I kind of threw you under the bus when I used you as a negative example back there Kirby Dragons, so I apologize for that. But Franky's problem for is pretty much that it takes a character who is a fairly capable combatant and reduces him to pretty much a joke character who relies on things like his hair and cola as means of attack. Its not that he isn't goofy, I get that, but those are not primary elements of his fighting style and the set really makes them into that, with both the hair and cola getting several moves to themselves. The specials are decent by comparison, but the Side B is kind of poorly thought out when you give it 3 seconds of start up lag, that kind of lag makes the move effectively unusable unless there is some kind of catch, nobody is going to get hit by something telegraphed for that long in a row, or let them fire it off. There are a lot of other moves besides that one that have too much lag, with a second or a half second being used on moves not powerful enough to justify it.

I will say that, trying to do the hair attacks for the purpose of being innovative, while it shows you're a bit confused as to HOW to innovate, shows at the very least you have your heart in the right place. An easier way to make innovation work is to try to interconnect your attacks a bit, make them work off each other. Blocks is probably the strongest example of that in the contest, but if you want a simpler one Abomasnow should tell you a bit about how to execute that. Its a safer way to execute it than using overly goofy animations like attacking with hair, and often makes for more interesting gameplay. I think you have potential if you keep working at this.

DJ Octavio
I have not seen your definition of a boss set used in any boss before this one, and its a pretty weird one that I don't think I can be totally on board with given it restricts his playability to a lesser number of stages. Its not particularly offensive and at the very least unlike some fairly terrible MYM13 sets, doesn't make up its own stage that you're required to fight it on. The actual set is honestly not that bad coming from you, it has a few neat interactions off the ink such as using it as wall like waves, and the fact that you can turn his weapons to a more supportive type of ink gives some depth to playing against Octavio, making him feel a bit more balanced to fight. I feel he's still a bit on the overall too powerful side though, his attacks are massive in scope and not exactly lacking in power, given he seems to be meant to be on the same level of power as any other character from not requiring more than one player character to fight him. And while a lot of the set makes decent use of his equipment, there is the occasional slightly baffling move, like the ink getting rolled up by him while he causes the foe to sink into the ink. Does that mean they erupt out of Octavio, or were you just not thinking about how those moves would interact, nevermind what happens if you keep the "sinking into the ink effect" only and try and manipulate it with Up Smash. The other move that as far as I'm concerned should really be removed is the Up Aerial. I'm sorry but using the catfish for an attack is a move that truly baffles me and I honestly ended up laughing out loud when I first read it because its just so absurd a choice, you should probably change it to something that uses his ship. Anyway, its still one of your better sets Bio, I found some aspects of it to honestly be kind of enjoyable, even if its a fair bit worse than Hanasasomethingorrather.

Inkling
Honestly I like a lot of the changes you made to the set on a rework, the mechanics are a fair bit more interesting than they were before and provide more inherent depth to the Inkling's game than they did in the previous version. I was kind of worried about the lag cancelling on ink when I first read about it but honestly, the inklings aren't exactly about to make some ridiculous sequence of KO moves via the ink the transition of going into squid form and then using another attack isn't instantaneous. It does open up some combo potential though, which honestly is kind of cool when you have a delayed explosive to play off of. The actual move changes edit out a lot of the stuff from the previous set which could be said to be more "creative", but honestly that's not really a bad thing as the set was overloaded with effects that didn't actually mean anything but make the inklings setup easier or do something rather tacky like the ink wall. Its not exactly hard for them to get down some setup anyway. To be totally honest I still don't find a lot of what was done terribly interesting, the overcharged Smashes in particular felt rather underwhelming to me as all they really do is produce a big hitbox, though you mentioned it was hard to come up with terribly exciting effects for them.

Since I'm feeling rather generous, I'll throw out an idea for the overcharged Smashes. How about the Inkling can go into squid form to move around during the smash charge to cancel it briefly before being able to continue charging it once it jumps out of squid form, giving it an ability to continue to charge Smashes longer than usual, and give an even higher power cap on the abilities if you charge to say, 4 seconds or something. It'd both make the overcharged Smashes more powerful and more exciting, without necessarily needing to give them a new effect. Just a thought though.

L'Belle
Your writing style here is pretty entertaining in how pretentious it can sometimes feel, mostly because said pretentiousness is almost entirely comical and fits the character very well. If nothing else, you get his characterization across insanely well, I honestly have fairly little knowledge of Ace Attourney and I still feel like I know this character almost too well now. The actual set has its share of interesting ideas, mostly having to do with the perfume poison damage that is executed a fair bit differently than in previous sets of this type in how you stack it. Unfortunately L'Belle is not a sludge or gas monster so his options to actually play off that later in the set are rather limited, but you at least have a few ideas such as gaining more colors of perfume or using it to empower perfume based attacks. While I don't feel the spear stuff is extremely interesting by itself, the problems created by losing it are more interesting in the context of how much worse his perfume based attacks are when the foe does have a shield and the spear being very powerful against those. It makes the moves that utilize the spear a fair bit less dull than they would be otherwise, anyway.

Its not all good though, the logic on some moves feels a bit out there honestly. He regains the spear if he throws it sure, but if he thrusts it into the ground he specifically has to extract it himself? That's a little odd, though the primary thing that bugs me I guess is the fact that L'Belle can use the perfume as a KO move. And a seriously powerful one, if you fully charge DSmash and stack up all the default and bonus perfume colors, you're looking at something that puts most heavyweights to shame in KO power. Now I'm sympathetic as you should get some reward for that kind of setup, but you can't deny that kind of power on a perfume spray is a little absurd. I also don't feel the spear game is terribly interesting, the shield pressure connection is kind of cool but a lot of the material with the spear is pretty boring once that's not taken into account, and the non-spear moves are pretty universally uninteresting. I can't say this is really your fault so much as this is a ridiculously low potential character so I don't know what else you could do with him.
 

JamietheAuraUser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,196
Location
somewhere west of Unova
I gotta say Jamie your knowledge of smash physics is truly admairable
I just read a lot, lol. And I've messed with BrawlBox a bit. With that calculation though, all I did was plug numbers from KuroganeHammer's data thingy into a formula I got from ssbwiki. Reading comprehension, people!

Speaking of that though, @Smash Daddy, while you're busy emphasizing how much damage the spear moves do to shields you frequently make a move do less shield damage than its sheer percent says it should.

Most notable example is the Forward Smash, which does both ludicrous damage for a Smash Attack on a non-power character (it hits as hard as Ganondorf's) and ludicrous damage for a projectile. 24% is significantly over a quarter of a shield's health. In Brawl, that would be just over a quarter of a full shield's 80 HP, yes, but in Smash 4 that's just under half of a shield's 50 HP. Shield damage numbers like that aren't actually terribly unbalanced in Smash 4 though, since shield regeneration is really pretty quick so each hit has got to do a fair bit of damage in order for the pressure to last, especially if you don't have the frame data to just keep punching it.

Not really sure what to think of his playstyle overall though. He's a heavyweight character that lacks the sheer presence a heavyweight normally has, although he does at least have ridiculous reach and power to work with. And of course his Down Smash is slightly silly as was pointed out by ForwardArrow.
 
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ForwardArrow

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
503
Karthus
Karthus is another character from League of Legends associated with the Shadow Isles, like Mordekaiser a couple pages back. Karthus was obsessed with death even before becoming an undead, until he eventually offered himself up to the Shadow Isles to achieve the form he has now. He has control over spirits which follow his whims referred too as his "choir", as well as powerful magic which simply seeks to bring life closer to obliteration or just outright annihilate it. In game, Karthus' main claim to fame is his ultimate and passive, the former of which allows him to hit everyone on the map no matter what their position, and the later allowing him to continue fighting even after he is killed for a brief period. And now he comes to bring his message of death to Smash, which given everyone is trying to murder each other he'll probably have his fair share of luck.

Stats
Recovery 9.5
Size 9
Traction 8.5
Air Speed 8.5
Weight 5
Dash Speed 4
Fall Speed 1

Karthus is extremely good at staying in the air, as he has 3 jumps, a float that lasts 3/4ths as long as Peach's that is also slightly faster, and great air speed/low fall speed. While that's nice and all, his size and weight combination is rather unfortunate, so he's a bit inclined to die early. Though as far as big floaty people go, at least he's better off than poor SSB4 Mewtwo.

As an aside, when Karthus dies, he's given one last chance to take the opponent down with him, as a spectral version of himself appears from the point he took the last hit and he can continue attacking from there for 5 seconds, but not moving. He can, at the very least, turn around to hit opponents who go behind him however. Afterwards, he'll die, but at the very least you can take the opponent down with you, and hell, you'll win if its on the last stock as they technically died before you did. Karthus' spectral remains cannot be attacked during this period, so you don't have to worry about getting knocked out of your attacks with hitstun or anything, but don't try to suicide to abuse this as then you'll just be using all your moves near the bottom blast zone which is pretty useless.

Specials
Neutral Special Lay Waste
Karthus conjures a point of unstable magic anywhere within an area 2x2 battlefield platforms in front of him, defaulting to one battlefield platform in front of him but if you hold a direction during the move's start up lag, you can move it to any position within that area. The start up lag is actually fairly quick so you have to have decent timing to move it where you want, and that's something you should probably practice before playing Karthus.

The unstable magic will take a second before it explodes, though Karthus is not bound in place while its in the process of exploding. When it goes off it deals 14% and knockback that KOs at 125%, which is powerful, but somewhat limited by the delay as you might expect, as well as the hitbox being pretty small. Regardless, Karthus can use the fact that he's free to move to set up another blast, or just control the opponent's positioning. There are also moves that interact with these pulses of unstable magic before they pop, so keep that in mind.

During Karthus' last attempts to defy death, this move, like your other specials, is somewhat buffed, though this one is fairly small, as all it does is increase the size of the explosion by 1.25x. Still, it makes this move a bit easier to land.

Down Special Requiem
Karthus announces this move's activation with a loud declaration of the opponent's death, something along the lines of "Listen and rejoice in death!" or "Hear me mortals!" or something equally hammy as spectral energy forms around every opponent in the match. This is a very laggy move to initiate, and after the start up lag nothing will happen for the next 10 seconds, but after the time is up, all opponents onscreen will be hit by a beam of spectral energy that deals 15% and upwards knockback that KOs at 155%. This can be shielded or dodged, but there is no other way to avoid the move.

While Requiem is active, Karthus can continue to try to channel it to increase its power. If he spent the full 10 seconds channeling this move, it will deal 40% and knockback that KOs at 30%, obscenely powerful but there is no remotely realistic way you can charge it the entire time. The power also spikes a lot at that, even with 9 seconds of charge it only deals 28% and knockback that KOs at 75%, the key moreso is that the more you charge this move, the more trouble the opponent will have evading it. At 3 seconds of charge, the move will hit opponents who dodge it and go clean through counters, requiring them to shield or get hit. At 7 seconds, it will pierce shields, giving them absolutely no way to avoid it whatsoever, but again, this is assuming the opponent will give you 7 undefended seconds out of 10 to just charge this move. Removing the dodge option is big though and something more realistic to focus on doing, as if you do that, the opponent cannot be in knockback from some other attack, and will have to suffer the prospect of losing their shield against Karthus, which is pretty bad when the guy is loaded with delayed hitboxes that are rather hard to dodge. Speaking of which, if you want to hit with Requiem in its less charged states and just use it as a time bomb, that's perfectly viable too.

One nice side benefit to this move is how much fear it adds to the opponent when they KO you. If they kill you with an active Requiem charge of 2 seconds or more, you can dedicate all your time before death to making sure they take a powerful hit at the end of those 10 seconds, as absolutely nothing else will stop it from happening, barring something really weird like Strangelove's Neutrality Zone. The problem with this move amounts to the fact that the initial cast time is long, almost as bad as a Warlock punch, so you'll need some serious space to land it, but this kind of omnipresent pressure and the ability to take a foe down with you in a much more assured fashion is something the opponent absoltuely has to take note of.

Side Special Wall of Pain
Karthus summons a pair of obelisks in the background and foreground as a wall of spectral energy forms between them, creating a wall a little taller than himself that is about the width of Kirby. This is fairly laggy to create, so trying to just make one on top of the opponent is not going to work out, and you can only have one out on stage at a time, as a second will just replace the old one. This wall isn't solid, characters, projectiles, and the like can go right through it, but it has some pretty nasty effects on opponent's who try to walk through. For one, being in contact with it massively slows their movement speed while they travel through it and for a short time after, and their roll distance is shortened proportionately to how much slower they are. They also have incredibly laggy jumps while in their if they want to try and jump out of it, but thankfully their attacks/dodges/shield are basically unaffected. The slow effect continues a bit after they escape the wall too, though only for approximately a second.

The other effect of the wall is that it decreases the opponent's resiliency against Karthus' magic. Simply being within a Kirby width on either side of the wall will increase the damage and knockback they take by 1.05x each second(stacking like 1.1x, 1.15x, 1.2x, etc), and it ticks up thrice as fast while they're actually inside the wall. This is pretty scary, but it doesn't immediately go away when they're not intersecting it either, reducing by 1.05x in the same fashion as how it increases once every 2 seconds. An opponent can escape the wall pretty fast, but if Karthus can repeatedly zone them into it with his projectiles and Neutral Special he can get a seriously powerful boost to his attack power, and even if he doesn't, even some fairly small damage and knockback amplification will still make a difference.

If a projectile goes through the wall, it will slow down a great deal for about 2 seconds, before speeding back up to its normal pace. This does 2 things, one its a pretty solid, but not perfect defense against enemy projectiles. Two, it slows down your projectiles(again, introduced later) so that you can potentially create some bullet hell for later use or some slow projectiles to play off. Obviously, this can be used against you if the opponent is particularly clever, but hopefully you're prepared for that situation coming up.

During the period before his death, Karthus' wall is very limited in where it can be placed as you can't move, but you can angle it up or down to make it appear further away from Karthus or slightly closer. Projectiles that travel through the wall are also stopped until Karthus respawns, before starting on a slow path, giving him basically a "save" of projectiles he can start off the next stock with, and the rate of magic resistance depletion is increased to twice per second in the outer radius, and four times per second in the inner radius.

Up Special Defile
Karthus calls forth his "choir" of spirits, a mass of ghosts 1.5x the size of Bowser colored a light blue-green color that whirls around him, dealing 3% per second and allowing Karthus to freely move through the air like ROB's recovery, though its more straight up free flight rather than just upwards movement. It has the same duration as said move, but he travels slower and the recharge period is about 1.5x as long, so it needs the slight damage to be able to keep up with said move.

This is of course, if you use the move in the air. Once you land on the stage or if you use this move on the ground, the move runs out of power at one third the rate of ROB's recovery, and can continue to stay up even if Karthus is not using it to fly. You might think this aura isn't really that powerful or worth using, but there's one extra perk to it. If a projectile Karthus owns flies into the souls, they'll spin it around Karthus once before sending it flying in the opposite direction, giving you some control of the projectile, especially since you can move around while its performing its singular loop around you to further space it or abuse a wall from Side Special to slow it down afterwards to catch it again.

During Karthus' last stand, there is no recharge period on this move and you can hold it out as long as you want. You can of course, take it down to release projectiles whenever you wish too.

Smashes
Forward Smash Spirits of the Damned
Karthus conjures up a portion of his "choir", a group of several ghosts which he has fly forwards, wailing as they go. They deal 17%-24% and knockback that KOs at 140%-100% and travel 2-3 battlefield platforms. This is a fairly slow move given its a projectile with that much power behind it, and it travels somewhat on the slower side, moving at Mario's dash speed. Obviously, you can abuse this with Up Special and the wall, by slowing it down or having it orbit Karthus, and on account of its slow speed you can have it help cover for your Neutral Special blasts, providing some pseudo bullet hell.

If Karthus or the opponent hits this orb of souls with another attack(not counting ones like the wall or passive damage from Up Special for obvious reasons), it will break into 8 souls that fly in each cardinal direction, dealing 5%-7% each and flinching knockback. Multiple of these can in fact hit for some potentially enormous damage if the opponent is near the move when it gets split apart, so you can potentially get far more damage out of this move than usual at the cost of knockback. These souls travel at Sonic's dash speed and lack the kind of power of the Forward Smash's normal version, but provide you with a much larger amount of projectiles to actually manipulate and control space with. Neutral Special is probably the easiest way to pop this open as it has such a versatile array of ranges it can hit from, allowing you to change the nature of the projectile from just about anywhere.

Up Smash Soulfire
Karthus shoots a single bolt of blue flame over his head, travelling in a similar manner to Snake's Up Smash and dealing 11%-15% and radial knockback that KOs at 180%-150% on the way up, but becoming much weaker on the way down, only dealing 4% and a flinch regardless of charge. It also travels a fair bit slower than said move, making it overall inferior to said Up Smash in most regards. That said, you do have the ability to manipulate it in ways Snake can't control his, so there's that benefit, but there are a couple other reasons this move is better than it sounds. Also while being held in Up Special it will retain whichever state it was in, whether that be the more powerful upwards travelling version or the weak downwards travelling version.

First of all, on contact with the ground the projectile will explode into a powerful blast the size of a Bomb-omb explosion that deals 19%-26% and upwards knockback that KOs at 90%-65%, serving as the strongest KO move in Karthus' arsenal. In addition, if you hit the projectile with Karthus' Neutral Special, it will be sent flying back upwards with the same power it had originally if it was falling, and if it was rising it will be accelerated to the top of its flight almost instantaneously, dealing 1.5x as much damage and knockback during that period before going into a fall. This gives you a few ways to get more than your money's worth out of one of these projectiles.

Down Smash Soul Extraction
Karthus lowers one hand to the ground and releases a burst of spectral energy, dealing 14%-19% and almost entirely horizontal knockback that KOs at 165%-140%. This is a fairly weak smash and even moreso when you consider that lagwise it can be compared to much stronger moves like Lucas' Down Smash, but it has some interesting effects, depending on if you hit with it or miss with it. If you connect with this move, in addition to sending the opponent flying, it will send a copy of the projectile that most recently hit them(even ones that aren't your own) made out of the same energy that comprised this move. The copy will fly in the opposite direction of the opponent though, so you're going to need to catch it if you want to do much with it.

If it misses, the energy from this attack will linger on the ground, being about the size of Kirby and entirely still and not doing much of anything. You can reposition it with Up Special to get it to a different location on the stage, but it won't do anything... until you hit it with some of your attacks, as it alters and powers up your long ranged game. If a Forward Smash projectile travels through it while still whole, it will accelerate to Captain Falcon's dash speed and deal 1.25x the damage and knockback, and starts shedding the smaller projectiles it would split into as it flies, releasing one about every third of a second. If a smaller split off projectile hits one of these, it will turn into a copy of the original larger one.

If the Up Smash hits one of these clouds, it'll change it so that the power of the move overall is multiplied by 1.25x, but make it so the projectile is more powerful going down rather than when its going up, effectively swapping the strength of those hitboxes. In addition, the explosion now occurs at the peak of its flight if it collides with someone there, rather than if it hits the ground, making it a bit more specific to hit with but also come out much earlier in the hitbox. The Neutral Special's explosion upon hitting one of these is increased to the size of Bowser, making it suddenly a huge and formidable hitbox. All cases of these energy clouds are powerful but will expend the cloud... that said, you can make as many as you want, and space them around the stage freely with your Up Special. Use this to make some terrifying bullet hell if you so desire.

Standards
Jab Spectral Wanderer
Karthus summons a single ghost which spins in front of him for a moment, dealing mass flinching hits of 2% as long as he holds down the button. This is a bit like Game and Watch's jab in that it only has one hit that is spammed repeatedly rather than having a variety of different types of hits, but just a tap of the button will make the ghost do a full loop for 3 hits of 2%, laggier than said Game and Watch jab but still kind of fast.

After you finish pressing the button and release the ghost from the loop, it'll travel out as a projectile that deals 3% and a flinch, and going 3 battlefield platforms in distance. It travels moderately fast and if it passes by another of your projectiles, will change the angle of that projectile towards matching its own. This is rather useful because you have things to slow down your other projectiles, and more importantly you can choose the angle of this attack by releasing A. This is the final component of creating a powerful, controlled long range game for Karthus, but its not exactly perfect, as its a little hard to spam the actual projectile component of it and it doesn't totally control the aim of the projectile, rather just giving it a nudge in the direction its going. If you want total control, you'll use the Up Special, though that's less time efficient, and time is everything.

This also can move around Down Smash energy clouds, but not a very long distance.

Forward Tilt Ghastly Wrath
Karthus points his staff forward as the top glows, in a weak hitbox that deals 4% and weak horizontal knockback. This is a pretty sizable hitbox but lacks much of any power, while having a lot of end lag despite the quick start up, making it punishable, even on hit. The tip deals twice as much damage and knockback, but its not really enough to save this move from being bad, in and of itself. However, there's a blast of fire and spectral energy that will occur a short distance past the end of the staff, and this part of the hitbox is actually quite strong, dealing 14% and diagonal knockback that KOs at 145%. And while I mention a lot of end lag, this move IS really quick to come out, and once the opponent is at high percents even the staff itself will deal enough damage that this can function as a decent poking tool without sweetspotting it. There is a blind spot even at high percents though, and at low percents the blindspot is the vast majority of the space in front of Karthus.

This move can actually be angled, which changes the direction the staff is pointed, but also changes the power of the explosion a little differently. Angling it up will cause the blast to be much bigger, large enough to serve as an extension of the tip and dealing 9% and moderately weak diagonal knockback. Angling it down will make the blast incredibly small and precise to hit with, as well as decreasing the range of the staff strike by angling it down, but makes up for it by putting the sweetspot of the staff a little closer to Karthus and increasing the power of the explosion to 24% and knockback that KOs at 90%. On a move this fast, that's a terrifying number, but the hitbox is seriously tiny and impractical to hit with unless you've been amazing at zoning the opponent with a combination of your projectiles and the Neutral Special. How good this move, and the rest of your tilts are, will really depend on said zoning, as Karthus' staff isn't much of a weapon by itself.

Up Tilt Tri Spirit
Karthus spins his staff over his head, dealing 3% on the body of the staff and a flinch and while the tip glows and deals double damage and knockback like in the last move, double a flinch is still a flinch. This move isn't exactly impressive. That said, a little bit above the end of the staff, three spirits will fly up, initially together but breakin apart into 3 separate entities, dealing 15% and upwards knockback that KOs at 170% initially and then 5% and weak upwards knockback when separated. They descend back down after their initial upwards travel, meaning the move actually lingers a decent bit as the ghosts, while they don't travel far and disappear around the point they'd be at eye level with Karthus, do move pretty slowly. This move has less end lag than the Forward Tilt by a considerable margin, but more start lag, and the lingering nature of it makes it go along rather well with creating too much to dodge with Karthus' projectiles. That said, its not exactly that effective a move up close, so again, you're going to need to try and zone opponents towards where the move will produce its powerful hitbox, but once you do, this will help you keep them at your high power range.

Down Tilt Invigorate the Spirits
Karthus simply taps his staff on the ground in front of him, dealing 5% and flinching opponents, while having hilariously short range. While the tip of his staff glows, its not part of the hitbox. This is the fastest move in Karthus' arsenal but you have to be practically overlapping the opponent to hit with it, making that aspect of it seemingly meaningless. That said, a burst of spectral fire will erupt from the ground a little closer to you than the more powerful hitbox on the Forward Tilt, dealing 3 hits of 3% and little in the way of knockback. It will pop them up off the ground so the strongest version of Forward Tilt cannot combo out of this. The weaker versions will, but the opponent can still get hit by the staff rather than the actually powerful hitbox. Still, its good for racking damage, sets up for Neutral Special nicely to punish them if they DI around in the hitbox predictably, and is a nice hard to predict way to rack damage on opponents in your zone of power.

Dash Attack Wave of Souls
Karthus summons up a mass of souls below him, more dense than the ones from Up Special, and levitates on top of them as they fly forward. The wall lifts him about about a Marth height above the ground, before disintegrating after traveling a battlefield platform, dealing 9% and weak knockback behind Karthus as it travels and 15% and horizontal knockback that KOs at 155%as it disintegrates. This is a fairly strong move partially because it raises Karthus out of the way of a lot of grounded attacks to make it a fair bit safer to use out of a dash, but keep in mind that if they dodge the end part of the attack you're just gonna end up having gotten closer to the opponent than you wanted too most of the time.

Also, since this set uses the Brawl engine and not SSB4, you can DACUS this attack. Karthus' USmash already benefits immensely from a DACUS, and this one comes with a side benefit of having him travel upwards in the air while it happens and covering a huge horizontal distance. Honestly the range being wider than Snake's DACUS and the projectile travelling slower will make this a bit more predictable compared to said move.

Aerials
Neutral Aerial Spirit Fire
Karthus summons 8 small, burning spirits around himself, which orbit him briefly before flying out and exploding in larger blasts of spiritual energy that deal 2% and flinching while spinning and then 8% and knockback that KOs at 240% while exploding. This is a slightly slow aerial but it is faster than it sounds, and on larger characters it is possible to land 2 of the explosions to make this a fairly powerful damage racker. If you can't pull that off, it at the very least provides you a decent amount of spacial control, which is always good for Karthus.

The Neutral Special has an interaction with this attack, in that if the spirit explodes in the same place as the Neutral Special energy, it will leave an area of burning energy in the air that deals 5% per second that is a fair bit bigger than the explosion hitbox itself. It will last for 6 seconds, and while it doesn't interrupt recoveries in a manner that would make this technique a broken edgeguarder, damage is still damage, and when a projectile passes through this energy it will carry it along its path for a short distance, allowing your projectile spam to actually extend the range of this passive damage.

Forward Aerial Ghoul's Retaliation
Karthus raises his staff in front of him before swinging it forward in a somewhat slow and underwhelming staff strike, dealing 9% and knockback that won't KO until around 300%. Not very impressive, but there is one perk to it. The staff, while in front of Karthus will block attacks on him to a degree, causing them not to deal damage and only half the knockback. If Karthus blocks an attack this way, the staff will unleash a surge of spiritual energy from the end as Karthus takes his knockback, dealing 15% and KOing at 140%. This is actually rather hard to make use of if the opponent smashed you away with a particularly strong attack, and faster more combo oriented ones would be less likely to actually get interrupted by this on account of being less telegraphed, but there are times at low percents or when the opponent is playing poorly, you can pull off some surprising damage and knockback with this move.

The spiritual surge will knock projectiles away with immense force, briefly making them travel at 1.5x their normal speed and deal 1.3x the normal damage and knockback. Pulling off much of anything with this is honestly even more situational than landing the hitbox itself, and is more just something that will occasionally come up to benefit you if you have a bunch of projectiles out. Note that if an Up Smash projectile explodes while accelerated by this attack it'll still deal the amplified damage and knockback, which is pretty insanely strong, so sometimes this rather situational interaction can pay off extensively.

Up Aerial Twin Spectres
Karthus raises his staff over his head and two ghosts appear at his side, spinning around him for multiple hits of 3% until they collide at the tip of his staff to deal 15% and upwards knockback that KOs at 150%. This move is surprisingly fast, especially compared to the Nair, with most of the lag just being duration as the spirits quickly fly up Karthus' body. Its a rare close range option for Karthus that he can remotely spam, which even pushes them towards the sweetspot of the move so subsequent uses of it, while they'll make said sweetspot weaker due to stale move decay, can potentially be used to get the opponent off of you. Its still remotely punishable because of the duration, but if Karthus is careful about when he uses it this is by far your strongest close range option, and to make it less predictable you can mix in closely placed Neutral Special blasts and Neutral Aerials, even if they are slower.

Back Aerial Chorus Mortus
Karthus sends a few ghosts out behind him that spread out as they travel away from him, fanning out in a hitbox that is easier to hit with farther away than up close due to being wider, but dealing up to 6 hits of 2% and knockback that KOs at 225%. This isn’t a particularly fast move but the range and size of the hitbox is impressive, making it a solid spacer.

If you use this while your Up Special is active, the Up Special spirits will allow flow into the attack too, increasing the size of the fanning part of the hitbox a bit but moreso adding more hits to the attack depending on how much time is left on your Up Special, maxing out at doubling the damage output and making the knockback KO at 175%. Any projectiles caught in the Up Special at the time will be fired toward the end of the hitbox and disappear, dealing their normal damage and knockback, though if you have a high knockback projectile in there it can turn this from a decent aerial KO move to an incredible one. The problem is, as you’d probably expect, this uses up all the remaining time you have on your Up Special, and destroys the projectiles in the Up Special after the move ends. If you don’t want this expending your recovery just stop using Up B before you fire it out.

Down Aerial To The Abyss
Karthus swings his staff below him in a hitbox that deals 8% and a weak spike, before an explosion appears slightly beyond the end of it that deals 15% and a much stronger spike on par with Rob's Dair. This is a slightly slow move, but you can do a little to customize the hitbox to fit the current situation by floating to the side as Karthus does the swing using your float, as the explosion will occur at the same location regardless of where you started but the swing won't, giving it some rather unique coverage.

Grab Game
Grab Grip of Spirits
Karthus reaches forward and makes a grasping motion, and rather than trying to grab his opponent with only his weak physical strength, a horde of ghosts manifest around the foe to bind them as Karthus lightly grips them as well. This has pretty solid range for a grab, though its not on the level of Dedede.

Pummel Drag to Hell
Ghostly arms reach out from the spirits binding the foe, as if attempting to drag them down to the realm of the dead with them. This deals 1% to the opponent, and then 1% again fairly rapidly over the course of the grab, meaning pummel damage stacks exponentially. This has potential to be fairly strong, but at higher percents when the opponent would have more trouble escaping this, the extra damage is less needed to get the foe into KO range.

Down Throw Come With Me
Karthus slowly raises his hand off the opponents body as their soul begins to float out above them, hovering in the air for a moment before it manages to fly back into the opponent. They take 8% as the soul is extracted and fall into prone once it returns to their body. Its a fairly weak throw, but one thing to keep in mind is that during the prone, the effects of your pummel will linger as the ghosts continue trying to drag the opponent to their demise. Of course they'll get out of prone fast though... unless a projectile hits the soul. While its out, the soul is actually a semi-hurtbox for the foe, it can be damaged by outside sources for half as much as hitting their body, and will make the prone untechable while also adding a bit of lag onto them getting up from it in any form. Obviously, having a projectile fly by while the opponent is stuck in this throw isn't always going to happen, but at medium percents the damage you can get from that and the pummel effect is pretty spectacular. And while Karthus can't prone abuse much, you can at least use the brief period they're disabled to get a positioning advantage, as Karthus has fairly little end lag on this throw.

Forward Throw Cross Over
A ball of spectral energy forms in Karthus' hand, which grows until it engulfs the foe before bursting, its aura still over them. The aura looks pretty much exactly the same as Karthus' wall, and will briefly apply the status effect of being fully inside the wall minus the movement inhibitting effects to them once they land, lasting for only a second but still serving as a slight buff to your damage and knockback output if you can somehow capitalize on it in the short span they're still debuffed. The throw itself deals 12% and mostly horizontal knockback that KOs at 165%.

The set has a much bigger incentive if you throw the opponent into a wall with it, which will cause them to get stopped in place as they experience a spike and 2% as the wall explodes to double its normal size for a moment. It slowly diminishes to its normal size over the next 5 seconds, but for a brief while both the debuffing area around the wall and the wall itself are going to be a massive pain while this effect lingers, potentially applying a powerful long lasting damage and knockback increase to the opponent that Karthus can abuse to kill them with ease. That being said, there is a vertical component to the knockback, so if you're not particularly close to the wall, Karthus might end up just throwing the foe over it.

Up Throw Death Chant

Karthus has the spirits levitate the foe over his head as he says a brief chant, as a much fainter version of the indicator for Requiem appears over the opponent's head. Karthus then has the spirits toss them away for 9% and moderate upwards knockback that KOs at 250%. The faint indicator will linger until Karthus activates Requiem again, at which point the usual indicator will appear more vibrant and powerful than before. Its buffed to be 1.2x more powerful when it finally does go off, but that's not the main incentive. No its that, if the opponent does manage to avoid it, 5 seconds later, it will fire off again without the buffed damage and knockback, and Karthus can put another one on the foe in the meanwhile, giving them progressively more and more material to dodge. That said, with this throw you're banking on actually getting time to channel Requiem, which some particularly aggressive opponents might not give you if you're not careful in positioning them away.

Back Throw Deathly Howl

Karthus spins around and blasts the opponent away with a burst of ghostly energy, dealing them 8% and having set knockback pushing them a bit beyond the range Karthus' tilts are at by far their most effective. Its a simple and not particularly powerful throw, but for spacing its probably the best one you have, as while the position isn't the completely ideal one for Karthus, its not particularly far off from it and still a powerful place for him to be.
 
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Tocaraca2

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User was warned for this post
I simply didn't find the ideas compelling and the writing to be really hard to get through
im butthurt now

No. They both count as the same input in the Stale Moves queue.

What charging a Smash Attack does is it increases the damage the move deals. Let's use Mario's Forward Smash as an example.

Uncharged, it does 17% damage with the sweetspot. It has a base knockback of 25 and a knockback growth of 99. Say the opponent, a default-size Mii Fighter for the sake of example, has taken 100% damage prior to being hit by Forward Smash. To make this easier on ourselves, we'll say Mario has not taken any damage.
Code:
(((((117 / 10 + 117 x 17 / 20) x 200 / (100 + 100) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
(((((11.7 + 99.45) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
((((111.15) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
(((155.61) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
((173.61) x 0.99) + 25
(171.8739) + 25
196.8739 units of knockback.
Now we'll do the same thing, but with Mario's Forward Smash being fully charged, meaning it does 23.8% damage instead of 17%.
Code:
(((((123.8 / 10 + 123.8 x 23.8 / 20) x 200 / (100 + 100) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
(((((12.38 + 147.322) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
((((159.702) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
(((223.5828) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
((241.5828) x 0.99) + 25
(239.166972) + 25
264.166972 units of knockback.
See how much of a difference that made in the knockback? And all that happened was that the damage dealt increased!
The term 'units of knockback' doesn't mean anything interpretable. It's definitely not pixels, or SBBs... we need some way to convert it into a value that we can interpret. I'm not expecting you to find it though.

EDIT: OH **** I DOUBLE POSTED
The fact that there's no 'delete' or 'merge' option with posts on Smashboards is baffling.
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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The term 'units of knockback' doesn't mean anything interpretable. It's definitely not pixels, or SBBs... we need some way to convert it into a value that we can interpret. I'm not expecting you to find it though.
I know. I'm not entirely sure how that translates to actual knockback velocity as the article isn't all that specific in that regard. I do know that in Brawl it takes about 186 units of knockback to KO a character from the center of Final Destination.
 
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JOE!

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Units are a real thing in smash. For example, Battlefield is 200 units from the floor you stand on to the top blast zone. So if you take over 200 units of knockback straight up on BF, you'll die.



 

JamietheAuraUser

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Units are a real thing in smash. For example, Battlefield is 200 units from the floor you stand on to the top blast zone. So if you take over 200 units of knockback straight up on BF, you'll die.



Hey, actually, I'm curious about something: is the grid used in Smash 4's stage builder measured in those same units?
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Mario is about three spaces tall on the stage builder grid. He'd be about 1.5~2 in the images Joe provided, going off of reference screenshots. So, no.
Didn't expect so. It would be awfully convenient if the ssb4 stage builder grid measured in multiples of 5 units, but of course, Sakurai. That said, it might almost line up? If Mario would be 1.5 squares tall on the images Joe provided and 3 squares tall on the stage builder grid, 5 units/square on the stage builder might line up. Someone could do testing on training mode? Heck, I might do it if I get time after college today or something since now I'm quite curious.

I suppose this is not including DI.
DI doesn't reduce knockback taken, it only changes direction. So if you take knockback straight up then you take knockback straight up. DI increases kill %s by changing the direction, making a 90° angle more like a 82.5° angle or something like that and thus letting you live a hit that causes 200 units of knockback.

Point is, the knockback formula is the knockback formula and the stage boundaries are the stage boundaries, and they're independent of each other. If the formula says you take over 200 units of knockback, and the attack's angle says you go straight up, and you don't DI to make that not straight up, you get KO'd.
 
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Munomario777

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JamietheAuraUser JamietheAuraUser

I think he's referring to vectoring.

As for lining up this chart with SSB4, it'd be an admirable effort. The only issue would be getting a reliable sense of scale, since we'd need a move that's never had its knockback changed, and a character that's never had their weight change. Then comes the work of actually measuring the distance between the two games. It could be done, though.
 

JOE!

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That is far too much trouble for what it's worth guys, trust me as somebody who is making a calculator for this sort of thing.

Especially with how the point of these sets is just for reading/concept anyway as long as you don't have stupid damage numbers.
 
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Tocaraca2

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So I could say that the base knockback starts increasing after 65% of charge on Alica's Side Smash. OK.

No. They both count as the same input in the Stale Moves queue.

What charging a Smash Attack does is it increases the damage the move deals. Let's use Mario's Forward Smash as an example.

Uncharged, it does 17% damage with the sweetspot. It has a base knockback of 25 and a knockback growth of 99. Say the opponent, a default-size Mii Fighter for the sake of example, has taken 100% damage prior to being hit by Forward Smash. To make this easier on ourselves, we'll say Mario has not taken any damage.
Code:
(((((117 / 10 + 117 x 17 / 20) x 200 / (100 + 100) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
(((((11.7 + 99.45) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
((((111.15) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
(((155.61) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
((173.61) x 0.99) + 25
(171.8739) + 25
196.8739 units of knockback.
Now we'll do the same thing, but with Mario's Forward Smash being fully charged, meaning it does 23.8% damage instead of 17%.
Code:
(((((123.8 / 10 + 123.8 x 23.8 / 20) x 200 / (100 + 100) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
(((((12.38 + 147.322) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25) x 1
((((159.702) x 1.4) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
(((223.5828) + 18) x 0.99) + 25
((241.5828) x 0.99) + 25
(239.166972) + 25
264.166972 units of knockback.
See how much of a difference that made in the knockback? And all that happened was that the damage dealt increased!
I'm really confused with this. How does it work and why did you divide by 10 and divide by 100 and double and get all of these numbers that weren't 17, 25, 99 and 100?
 

JamietheAuraUser

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So I could say that the base knockback starts increasing after 65% of charge on Alica's Side Smash. OK.


I'm really confused with this. How does it work and why did you divide by 10 and divide by 100 and double and get all of these numbers that weren't 17, 25, 99 and 100?
I just plugged things into the knockback formula from ssbwiki.

(((((p / 10 + p x d / 20) x 200 / (w + 100) x 1.4) + 18) x s) + b) x r

p is the percentage of the target, counted after the attack's damage is added.

d is the damage the attack dealt.

w is the weight of the target.

s is the attack's knockback scaling (also known as knockback growth) divided by 100 (so a knockback growth of 99 is entered as 0.99).

b is the attack's base knockback.

r is a ratio based on a number of factors, including:
— Intensity
— Handicap (not in Brawl or Smash 4)
— Smash charge interruption bonus
— Crouching penalty
— Rage (Smash 4 only)

If the move has a weight-based knockback value set (so the move deals set knockback), then d is set to that value, and p is always 10.

In this case, I started the Mii Fighter (w = 100) with 100% damage prior to being hit by the uncharged Forward Smash, so the value p ends up being 100+17. r is left at the default (1).

As for the charged Smash Attack dealing 23.8% damage, all I did was multiply 17 by 1.4 (the standard Smash Charge multiplier).

As for Alica's FSmash, you can just have the smash charge follow the usual scaling up until 65% charge, at which point it starts doing weird things such that the full-charge damage is 25% instead of 19.6%.
 
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JOE!

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So I could say that the base knockback starts increasing after 65% of charge on Alica's Side Smash. OK.


I'm really confused with this. How does it work and why did you divide by 10 and divide by 100 and double and get all of these numbers that weren't 17, 25, 99 and 100?
Because math relating to trajectories and phsyics changes are complex.

Smashes are simple though: As you charge a smash attack, its damage builds from 1x (base) up to 1.4x damage (full charge) over the course of about 2 seconds, so about every half second (30 frames if you really wanna get into it) you charge you boost damage by 0.1x, etc. Generally just treat it as a scaling function like certain smashes do with range (See: Duck hunt Fsmash, Snake Usmash) and as a means of balance:

It takes two seconds of commitment alongside more KB taken if hit, but a fully charged smash also does X!

Etc, etc. Use your imagination :)
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Because math relating to trajectories and phsyics changes are complex.

Smashes are simple though: As you charge a smash attack, its damage builds from 1x (base) up to 1.4x damage (full charge) over the course of about 2 seconds, so about every half second (30 frames if you really wanna get into it) you charge you boost damage by 0.1x, etc. Generally just treat it as a scaling function like certain smashes do with range (See: Duck hunt Fsmash, Snake Usmash) and as a means of balance:

It takes two seconds of commitment alongside more KB taken if hit, but a fully charged smash also does X!

Etc, etc. Use your imagination :)
Smash charge is 1 second, not 2, iirc.
 

Bionichute

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Jamie, maybe you could actually, like... make a set? You clearly know a lot about the mechanics, and if you made something that could play to that, you could probably make a really good set.

Also, I updated my Rankings with sets from page 5 to 8.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Jamie, maybe you could actually, like... make a set? You clearly know a lot about the mechanics, and if you made something that could play to that, you could probably make a really good set.

Also, I updated my Rankings with sets from page 5 to 8.
I have like 3 sets in the works. I have a Daisy set which has everything done except Down Special, Up Tilt, throws, misc. animations, and the playstyle section.
I have a Jenna set which has everything almost done except for Up Aerial, a few tweaks to Down Aerial, Custom Up Special #2, the actual descriptions for a few of the custom specials, misc. animations, and the playstyle section.
I still have that Paint Roller set in the works, but I have a lot of stuff relating to knockback angles and the descriptions for aerial attacks and throws to work out, along with some of his misc. animations.
 

Tocaraca2

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OK so, the base knockback is the amount of knockback the attack deals if it doesn't deal any damage, and you multiply the base knockback by the damage, the other character's percentage, and the knockback growth? This would be so much sinpler than
(((((p / 10 + p x d / 20) x 200 / (w + 100) x 1.4) + 18) x s) + b) x r
 

JamietheAuraUser

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OK so, the base knockback is the amount of knockback the attack deals if it doesn't deal any damage, and you multiply the base knockback by the damage, the other character's percentage, and the knockback growth? This would be so much sinpler than
(((((p / 10 + p x d / 20) x 200 / (w + 100) x 1.4) + 18) x s) + b) x r
— Base knockback is not multiplied at all, except by things such as Rage, Crouch Cancelling, and Smash Charge Interruption. You can clearly see that the only thing that comes after base knockback in the formula is a multiplication by "r", that generic variable that includes all of the above-mentioned factors. That's how Luma's Up Tilt at full rage is able to KO Bowser from 0% when he's charging a Smash Attack; the move's massive 120 base knockback completely ignores Bowser's weight.
— The foe's percent post-hit and the damage dealt provide a second (well, really, first) value which is then multiplied by a value based on the target's weight (200 / (weight + 100)), then multiplied by 1.4, then with an extra 18 added on, and that is multiplied by the knockback growth.
— You add this "scaled knockback" and the base knockback together at the end, right before factoring in things such as Rage.
 
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D

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Here's some comments.

I’ve actually read a ways past Franky’s debut in One Piece so I can actually attest to how well this set’s characterised. One thing to get out of the way as FA’s comment covered it pretty well; the set’s use of cola and hair is very odd. There was some discussion over whether it was okay or not in the chat and I personally think it could’ve been okay on one or two inputs as a fun little detail, from that point-of-view I can see it being good, but not on so many moves. You do manage to include most if not all of Franky’s signature moves but they do feel a bit jumbled, partially because of a central part of the set being given to either the hair or cola. I’d have probably made the cola a mechanic within the set myself, opening up room for other move concepts, because Franky has plenty of things he can bring to a set. I like that you do try and make every move interesting, with very creative ideas, but it’s better to think about logically what the character would do first, then challenge yourself to make it as interesting as it can be without it breaking with how the character acts in the series.

I was surprised the cola beam wasn’t a central part of the set, but instead projectiles mostly were one-time attacks. I can barely remember some of the fire moves you included, and there are no substantial melee attacks when Franky does that earlier on in the series. That is also a problem, it’s not very clear if this is pre or post-Time Skip Franky, who have very different shapes and sizes, as well as arguably justifying a wholly different moveset. The header image is of the post-Time Skip Franky but the use of cola is not as prominent by that point (although I may be wrong as I’m not caught up on Dressrosa). It’s also weird because of the few melee moves he does have, some of them use his tiny legs or feet as the hitbox, and not his huge gorilla arms. Although I really like the redesign of Franky in the post-Time Skip section of the manga, I think it would have made more sense if you focused on the pre-Time Skip design given what concepts you had, as trying to include everything this character does is a pretty big task. But despite all my criticisms it was very fun to see someone try and handle Franky in a meaningful way and I hope you have some more sets in the pipeline as you seem to pick fun characters.

Mordekaiser is a set that creates a limitation for itself, then ignores the limitation as anything but an excuse to pile on clumsy mechanics. It begins as a super heavyweight that has poor mobility, a vulnerability to combos and is cumbersome. There’ve been plenty of great sets that start this way by finding innovative ways to overcome that handicap. In Mordekaiser’s case, the solution is at first stacking more and more power onto a risk-for-reward type mechanic, so that if a hit does land it hits like a ton of bricks. Unfortunately after that the set doesn’t capitalize on the mechanic, instead introducing a quasi-shield and strange moves that don’t feel that fitting on Mordekaiser, but are obviously just desperate to give him a non-generic mace strike. If I was to pick out the worst offender it’d easily be the up smash where he fires his shield as a projectile. By the end of the set it’s all turned out to be a huge mess and the set reads as a first draft, which knowing the development, is basically how it went. All I can say besides that is it is a difficult character to make a set, so it probably would’ve taken a while to get it up to snuff. It’s a shame as this is one of the better LOL characters.

As someone who hasn’t touched Splatoon I found DJ Octavio at least made sense in spite of how random he is as a character, as your style meshes well with the bizarre. It manages to pull off summoning sea critters and an ORA ORA type move without seeming like a joke set. I can even say I liked the use of minions, and the specials actually had a good thing going for them, all of that stuff was good. The set does lose points immediately though for being a boss that’s extremely limited in the stages it can be played on, and not really being justified as a boss for balance or how it plays. He’s very susceptible to combos from three enemy players, given he has grab immunity but no hitstun immunity. He’s also basically just got long-ranged moves to try and hit multiple players at once. The range he uses is gigantic enough for it to be remotely conceivable this might work, but it’s a big missed opportunity to work in a free-for-fall or team setting without just being a big character with big hitboxes. I think there’s also a sense that you just didn’t have many ideas for the grab game, and you mostly just ignore the minions, as well as the ink by the end, both could’ve been used more frequently in other moves. All in all though this wasn’t too bad, I think it could’ve been a lot better though had you not been lazy about the last inputs and tried to link it all together more from what you had in the specials.

Last of the bunch is Karthus, a set that deserves some more feedback right now. This one is a lot stronger than Mordekaiser obviously, because as straightforward as it is, it works. It’s a projectile manipulator that piles on projectiles and effects that work together, and carves out its own niche as expected from a set of this type. I wouldn’t say it innovates in any way, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t unique in how it incorporates the neutral special as a more universal tool and uses the wall as another boost. This gives a nice sense of control over Karthus’ projectiles. Although I would say you could’ve done more using his after death passive and the set does rely too much on interactions between moves at times, for example the one throw that buffs Requiem. There are also some weird moves like replicating any projectile using magic that fires itself at Karthus before he can use it, that could’ve been explored much more or just don’t make a lot of sense. Overall it is a good moveset but it’s pretty flawed, and after Mordekaiser it makes me think that maybe LOL is not the best source for sets unless you have some major inspiration like Roy did for Viktor.

The couple of comments on L'Belle are very much appreciated too.

He regains the spear if he throws it sure, but if he thrusts it into the ground he specifically has to extract it himself? That's a little odd, though the primary thing that bugs me I guess is the fact that L'Belle can use the perfume as a KO move. And a seriously powerful one, if you fully charge DSmash and stack up all the default and bonus perfume colors, you're looking at something that puts most heavyweights to shame in KO power.
The rest of your comment was fine but I feel like I should clarify these couple of points. The spear is never meant to be interacted with by the opponent, I never outright stated this, but that was why for example when he throws his spear it doesn't stick around on the ground where it's painfully begging to be picked up as an item. And again with the down aerial, if I made it so that foes could pick up the spear and use it as a generic weapon, it would mess with the internal logic of the set. L'Belle's spear moves aren't meant to be very competent but then some Fire Emblem lord picks it up and has the same weak animations? That's why it's left to be a background element.

As for the KO power, it's kind of topical because this is actually how knockback works, damage adds a massive amount of power and I asked a couple of knowledgeable people who said the balance was fine. I personally feel not only the balance is justified, but I like a more comical character being able to build up to an unlikely KO move, but to each his own.

Speaking of that though, @Smash Daddy, while you're busy emphasizing how much damage the spear moves do to shields you frequently make a move do less shield damage than its sheer percent says it should.

Most notable example is the Forward Smash, which does both ludicrous damage for a Smash Attack on a non-power character (it hits as hard as Ganondorf's) and ludicrous damage for a projectile. 24% is significantly over a quarter of a shield's health. In Brawl, that would be just over a quarter of a full shield's 80 HP, yes, but in Smash 4 that's just under half of a shield's 50 HP. Shield damage numbers like that aren't actually terribly unbalanced in Smash 4 though, since shield regeneration is really pretty quick so each hit has got to do a fair bit of damage in order for the pressure to last, especially if you don't have the frame data to just keep punching it.

Not really sure what to think of his playstyle overall though. He's a heavyweight character that lacks the sheer presence a heavyweight normally has, although he does at least have ridiculous reach and power to work with. And of course his Down Smash is slightly silly as was pointed out by ForwardArrow.
L'Belle was made for Brawl, not Smash 4. It's my bad for not stating it in the set but I've not yet transitioned over to Smash 4 with my sets and until now it hasn't made any difference. I did look up and do some research on what shield percents would make sense in Brawl and you do seem to address that. It's sad as this is the majority of your comment.

L'Belle qualifies to be a heavyweight for Roy's Iron MYMer but he's actually only as heavy as Link, who I would say is borderline. The reason he doesn't have the "presence" of a heavyweight is because he really isn't one, and as you say yourself, he does have reach and power making up for how he lacks in other areas.

As a side note, I agree with Bionichute that it'd be good for you to make a set. I don't mean to sound ungrateful for your comment but I've noticed a trend in how you criticize sets, that you tend to nitpick balance issues, usually focusing on a single issue. It would be more helpful if you tried to comment on the set as a whole. If you could try and comment on or write more sets of your own it would be great along with all this chatter you're having in the thread, same to Tocaroca.
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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Here's some comments.

I’ve actually read a ways past Franky’s debut in One Piece so I can actually attest to how well this set’s characterised. One thing to get out of the way as FA’s comment covered it pretty well; the set’s use of cola and hair is very odd. There was some discussion over whether it was okay or not in the chat and I personally think it could’ve been okay on one or two inputs as a fun little detail, from that point-of-view I can see it being good, but not on so many moves. You do manage to include most if not all of Franky’s signature moves but they do feel a bit jumbled, partially because of a central part of the set being given to either the hair or cola. I’d have probably made the cola a mechanic within the set myself, opening up room for other move concepts, because Franky has plenty of things he can bring to a set. I like that you do try and make every move interesting, with very creative ideas, but it’s better to think about logically what the character would do first, then challenge yourself to make it as interesting as it can be without it breaking with how the character acts in the series.

I was surprised the cola beam wasn’t a central part of the set, but instead projectiles mostly were one-time attacks. I can barely remember some of the fire moves you included, and there are no substantial melee attacks when Franky does that earlier on in the series. That is also a problem, it’s not very clear if this is pre or post-Time Skip Franky, who have very different shapes and sizes, as well as arguably justifying a wholly different moveset. The header image is of the post-Time Skip Franky but the use of cola is not as prominent by that point (although I may be wrong as I’m not caught up on Dressrosa). It’s also weird because of the few melee moves he does have, some of them use his tiny legs or feet as the hitbox, and not his huge gorilla arms. Although I really like the redesign of Franky in the post-Time Skip section of the manga, I think it would have made more sense if you focused on the pre-Time Skip design given what concepts you had, as trying to include everything this character does is a pretty big task. But despite all my criticisms it was very fun to see someone try and handle Franky in a meaningful way and I hope you have some more sets in the pipeline as you seem to pick fun characters.

Mordekaiser is a set that creates a limitation for itself, then ignores the limitation as anything but an excuse to pile on clumsy mechanics. It begins as a super heavyweight that has poor mobility, a vulnerability to combos and is cumbersome. There’ve been plenty of great sets that start this way by finding innovative ways to overcome that handicap. In Mordekaiser’s case, the solution is at first stacking more and more power onto a risk-for-reward type mechanic, so that if a hit does land it hits like a ton of bricks. Unfortunately after that the set doesn’t capitalize on the mechanic, instead introducing a quasi-shield and strange moves that don’t feel that fitting on Mordekaiser, but are obviously just desperate to give him a non-generic mace strike. If I was to pick out the worst offender it’d easily be the up smash where he fires his shield as a projectile. By the end of the set it’s all turned out to be a huge mess and the set reads as a first draft, which knowing the development, is basically how it went. All I can say besides that is it is a difficult character to make a set, so it probably would’ve taken a while to get it up to snuff. It’s a shame as this is one of the better LOL characters.

As someone who hasn’t touched Splatoon I found DJ Octavio at least made sense in spite of how random he is as a character, as your style meshes well with the bizarre. It manages to pull off summoning sea critters and an ORA ORA type move without seeming like a joke set. I can even say I liked the use of minions, and the specials actually had a good thing going for them, all of that stuff was good. The set does lose points immediately though for being a boss that’s extremely limited in the stages it can be played on, and not really being justified as a boss for balance or how it plays. He’s very susceptible to combos from three enemy players, given he has grab immunity but no hitstun immunity. He’s also basically just got long-ranged moves to try and hit multiple players at once. The range he uses is gigantic enough for it to be remotely conceivable this might work, but it’s a big missed opportunity to work in a free-for-fall or team setting without just being a big character with big hitboxes. I think there’s also a sense that you just didn’t have many ideas for the grab game, and you mostly just ignore the minions, as well as the ink by the end, both could’ve been used more frequently in other moves. All in all though this wasn’t too bad, I think it could’ve been a lot better though had you not been lazy about the last inputs and tried to link it all together more from what you had in the specials.

Last of the bunch is Karthus, a set that deserves some more feedback right now. This one is a lot stronger than Mordekaiser obviously, because as straightforward as it is, it works. It’s a projectile manipulator that piles on projectiles and effects that work together, and carves out its own niche as expected from a set of this type. I wouldn’t say it innovates in any way, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t unique in how it incorporates the neutral special as a more universal tool and uses the wall as another boost. This gives a nice sense of control over Karthus’ projectiles. Although I would say you could’ve done more using his after death passive and the set does rely too much on interactions between moves at times, for example the one throw that buffs Requiem. There are also some weird moves like replicating any projectile using magic that fires itself at Karthus before he can use it, that could’ve been explored much more or just don’t make a lot of sense. Overall it is a good moveset but it’s pretty flawed, and after Mordekaiser it makes me think that maybe LOL is not the best source for sets unless you have some major inspiration like Roy did for Viktor.

The couple of comments on L'Belle are very much appreciated too.



The rest of your comment was fine but I feel like I should clarify these couple of points. The spear is never meant to be interacted with by the opponent, I never outright stated this, but that was why for example when he throws his spear it doesn't stick around on the ground where it's painfully begging to be picked up as an item. And again with the down aerial, if I made it so that foes could pick up the spear and use it as a generic weapon, it would mess with the internal logic of the set. L'Belle's spear moves aren't meant to be very competent but then some Fire Emblem lord picks it up and has the same weak animations? That's why it's left to be a background element.

As for the KO power, it's kind of topical because this is actually how knockback works, damage adds a massive amount of power and I asked a couple of knowledgeable people who said the balance was fine. I personally feel not only the balance is justified, but I like a more comical character being able to build up to an unlikely KO move, but to each his own.



L'Belle was made for Brawl, not Smash 4. It's my bad for not stating it in the set but I've not yet transitioned over to Smash 4 with my sets and until now it hasn't made any difference. I did look up and do some research on what shield percents would make sense in Brawl and you do seem to address that. It's sad as this is the majority of your comment.

L'Belle qualifies to be a heavyweight for Roy's Iron MYMer but he's actually only as heavy as Link, who I would say is borderline. The reason he doesn't have the "presence" of a heavyweight is because he really isn't one, and as you say yourself, he does have reach and power making up for how he lacks in other areas.

As a side note, I agree with Bionichute that it'd be good for you to make a set. I don't mean to sound ungrateful for your comment but I've noticed a trend in how you criticize sets, that you tend to nitpick balance issues, usually focusing on a single issue. It would be more helpful if you tried to comment on the set as a whole. If you could try and comment on or write more sets of your own it would be great along with all this chatter you're having in the thread, same to Tocaroca.
In L'Belle's case at least, I find it sort of hard to imagine how he actually works in the context of the game. I've not really watched much high-level Brawl play, but what I have seen suggests that it's a very slow-paced game at the competitive level. I once saw in a Meta Knight vs. Ice Climbers match, a 15-second-long exchange lead to Meta Knight landing a single Up Air. The ICs were actually managing to platform-camp the highest platform of Battlefield just by jumping every time MK jumped.

With that in mind, I think L'Belle's biggest problem is going to be his weak horizontal movement abilities. He won't even have time to set up a perfume field and start camping before he gets run into by a Mach Tornado from across the stage. What he wants to do is basically set up a perfume field and then either camp with FTilt/FSmash and occasional Down Specials, or platform camp simply by jumping every time the foe tries to poke him through the platform so that they're perpetually caught in the passive damage field. He can even cover the platforms to either side of him with low-angled perfume clouds, and of course he can just poke foes away with his multi-hitting FTilt. The only way L'Belle is making time to set up multiple perfume fields is if he's fighting a character who would themselves rather be camping, and I'm not entirely sure how L'Belle is supposed to threaten such a character. He doesn't have long-range projectiles of his own, he lacks a reflector, and his lacking horizontal mobility combined with relatively high fall speed means he'll have difficulty trying to just jump over them.

I'm not even saying this to insult L'Belle, I just legitimately think that L'Belle is a character that plays lame in a game that focuses around lame play at a competitive level. That, and my actual experience with how Brawl works is lacking compared to my experience with how Smash 4 works, quite surprising considering I played Brawl for years.

I do appreciate the shield-poking Down Tilt though. Also I think part of my confusion stems from the way you keep saying stuff about him keeping the "pressure" on the foe at various points in the set while at the same time encouraging a very passive playstyle with his damage over time and occasional self-heals.
 
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In L'Belle's case at least, I find it sort of hard to imagine how he actually works in the context of the game. I've not really watched much high-level Brawl play, but what I have seen suggests that it's a very slow-paced game at the competitive level. I once saw in a Meta Knight vs. Ice Climbers match, a 15-second-long exchange lead to Meta Knight landing a single Up Air. The ICs were actually managing to platform-camp the highest platform of Battlefield just by jumping every time MK jumped.

With that in mind, I think L'Belle's biggest problem is going to be his weak horizontal movement abilities. He won't even have time to set up a perfume field and start camping before he gets run into by a Mach Tornado from across the stage. What he wants to do is basically set up a perfume field and then either camp with FTilt/FSmash and occasional Down Specials, or platform camp simply by jumping every time the foe tries to poke him through the platform so that they're perpetually caught in the passive damage field. He can even cover the platforms to either side of him with low-angled perfume clouds, and of course he can just poke foes away with his multi-hitting FTilt. The only way L'Belle is making time to set up multiple perfume fields is if he's fighting a character who would themselves rather be camping, and I'm not entirely sure how L'Belle is supposed to threaten such a character. He doesn't have long-range projectiles of his own, he lacks a reflector, and his lacking horizontal mobility combined with relatively high fall speed means he'll have difficulty trying to just jump over them.

I'm not even saying this to insult L'Belle, I just legitimately think that L'Belle is a character that plays lame in a game that focuses around lame play at a competitive level. That, and my actual experience with how Brawl works is lacking compared to my experience with how Smash 4 works, quite surprising considering I played Brawl for years.

I do appreciate the shield-poking Down Tilt though. Also I think part of my confusion stems from the way you keep saying stuff about him keeping the "pressure" on the foe at various points in the set while at the same time encouraging a very passive playstyle with his damage over time and occasional self-heals.
See, this reply is far more interesting when you actually go into some depth and you have a different perspective on sets compared to most in this community. I personally don't consider the Brawl metagame when I make a set, instead I use it as a template for balance, so L'Belle is not supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with Meta Knight and I agree he'd get destroyed by him, but that's because my goal was not to make him competitively viable. My goal, and I think I speak for most people when I say this, was to make a fun set that has its own playstyle and would appeal to a certain group of players.

One of the reasons for this is that I don't feel that you can accurately predict the metagame based on a moveset. Just look at Smash 4 as an example, there were all kinds of predictions about what characters would be the strongest, most of them were wrong even up to the demo when people got to play the movesets. I don't think it's wise to try and predict how viable a character will be in the game, so long as they're not imbalanced. As L'Belle, in my opinion anyway, is not underpowered or overpowered I think he would settle fine into the metagame in Brawl and that's as much as I can say for a moveset that will never be in the game.

I really did enjoy your commentary on how you'd see a L'Belle match go, and I actually agree his playstyle is meant to be playing lame, but this is not an illegitimate playstyle. As a character, L'Belle is pretty much a coward and would in no way be able to stand up to almost anyone. That is why I made the set focus around running away, poking and setting up weak lingering hitboxes to give the L'Belle player pro-active options instead of just sitting around like most Brawl characters. Honestly I imagine L'Belle would get plenty of time to make his perfume considering the campy nature of Brawl. If the opponent is Meta Knight or something, it would be difficult, but then again every character in Brawl has a negative or barely even match-up against that character (besides, at times, Diddy or Yoshi).

Would L'Belle appeal to a lot of players on a competitive level? Probably not, but that's not what I made the set. I'd like to imagine there'd be some players who like me would enjoy a character who has big pay-offs, a ton of options and can easily turn a match around, despite some obvious weaknesses that can be exploited. Plus I'd like to think the set would be liked for the fun character who I tried to portray as accurately as I could in the set. Your perspective is pretty interesting so I would implore you again to just try and go into the same depth on other movesets, or try and get out more of your own. I don't think many people make sets in the same way you do, earlier on there were plenty who felt this way, but as you make more than one moveset it starts to get tiring trying to fit all of them into a very stale metagame as your primary reason for making sets.
 

JOE!

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The issue with that line of thinking however is that if a character "sucks" to play for lack of a better phrase, that seeps down even into casual play as the character becomes unfun for always losing/etc.

Also, for the "heavy = kills better / defensive", that is sorta false. Just look at Jigglypuff, she has INCREDIBLE defenses just by having near perfect recovery as well as the inability to be comboed at all, on top of REST/Fsmash/Gimps that make her punishes incredibly potent. Then, look at Bowser who is so big and heavy that he gets comboed by anything into a KO move, has a crap recovery that you can gimp easily, and all his KO options are strong yet improbable to land.
 
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JOE! JOE! I never said L'Belle sucks to play as, I think he'd be plenty of fun. He's just not made specifically to excel in the Brawl meta.

Actually it's funny you mention Jigglypuff as that character's playstyle is usually seen as cheesy in Melee but I always find it fun to watch. Same concept at play here, that's what we mean by "lame."
 
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JOE!

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I never specified L'Belle either, tho I suppose it may have been implied based on the conversation prior. But the point being is that if they are not balanced it will be unfun in the long run for everyone.

Edit:

Just saw the other part of the post... why would you make somebody for X meta, and at the same time purposefully make them have issues with said meta?
 
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Well, you wouldn't, but every character has weaknesses. Even Meta Knight is lightweight in Brawl, and Fox is easily gimped. You are right about balance, it's possible to make a balanced set without focusing on how it fits into a meta. As long as every set follows the same set of rules, AKA is balanced, they will work put together.
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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I don't think many people make sets in the same way you do, earlier on there were plenty who felt this way, but as you make more than one moveset it starts to get tiring trying to fit all of them into a very stale metagame as your primary reason for making sets.
Honestly? I can see what you were trying to do with L'Belle as a character. I'm not even sure I disagree with it. I think it's kind of neat, if not terribly original by MYM standards because at this point a truly original character in MYM is darn near impossible.

Anywho, with Victini last contest my goal wasn't to create a character with fancy interactions between different moves. It wasn't to create a character with a new and unique game plan (although I certainly had the mistaken belief that momentum-based shenanigans were something remotely resembling original). Victini is one of my favourite Pokémon, so I wanted to create Victini as I saw him fitting into Smash. Each of his special moves and normals, with the exception of the filler input that was Searing Shot on Down Special and that pathetic Dash Attack, was designed to serve a particular purpose, and to fill that role very well despite their simplicity. Hard interactions weren't the goal; the goal was a cohesive whole as a result of different moves that each served a distinct purpose to contribute to Victini's overall playstyle. Despite all the problems that set had, mostly in regards to both overall presentation and the descriptions and utility of several moves, it's probably a design philosophy I'll carry into future sets. (Though I'll at least remember that the special moves go first.)

To be honest? That Victini set was originally designed to fit within the scope of what we knew about Brawl hacking at the time, and then revamped a bit to take advantage of some of the things that could be considered within the pure-theorycraft environment of MYM.
 

Bionichute

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I think you guys should come to the chat sometime, you'd be able to continue your conversation, and also not completely clutter up the thread.
 

ϟPlazzapϟ

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I'm not sure exactly how skype works, like is there some sort of code I need to type in to get to the mym chat?

I mean I whould love a good chat now and then but I have no idea what i'm doing
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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I'm not sure exactly how skype works, like is there some sort of code I need to type in to get to the mym chat?

I mean I whould love a good chat now and then but I have no idea what i'm doing
Just gotta PM one of the MYM leaders and give them your skype name. If you don't have a skype account yet then go get one! At least, I think that's all you have to do to get in the MYM chat. That's what it says on page 1 of this thread.
 
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Munomario777

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I'm not sure exactly how skype works, like is there some sort of code I need to type in to get to the mym chat?

I mean I whould love a good chat now and then but I have no idea what i'm doing
In the magical world of Skype, you get added into a chat by having a person in that chat (with the right permissions of course) inkvite you.
Just gotta PM one of the MYM leaders and give them your skype name. If you don't have a skype account yet then go get one! At least, I think that's all you have to do to get in the MYM chat. That's what it says on page 1 of this thread.
That and be accepted, of course. :p
 

FrozenRoy

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In addition to ranking the sets below, I also have added Karthus to my list of ranked sets, but didn't make a comment for him yet because it's late and I'm tired.

Mordekaiser es NOT Numero Uno

The biggest problem with Mordekaiser for me, right off the bat, is that it is a set with very little variety and a playstyle that is very blunt, but not in the right way of bluntness. Mordekaiser simply has SO MANY heavyweight and extreme heavyweight moves that the moveset feels very same-y, even when some moves would play differently, and that he feels extremely feast or famine, because the sheer power of his moves and Iron Man mean that if he gets going, he'll just roll over and crush people, but if people keep him away, he's like Ganondorf, without solving the issues of Ganondorf. This moveset needed moves with more variety to keep the moveset more balanced between heavy and, say, medium attacks, while retaining a skew towards the heavy.

I'm disappointed by the fact that Mordekaiser has very little to do with the enemy-ghost on Children of the Grave: Not really much in the way of cool interactions or anything, this somewhat unique and iconic part of Mordekaiser feels almost like an afterthought to the minion-summoning part of the move, which gets repeated interactions and attention, feeling like a total backwards in way of character. I would have considered having the charge give Mordekaiser a way to get the soul without killing the foe, rip it out of them and maybe by damaging it (based on charge, it'd have different HP), they can get it "back" (Killing it and maybe healing them some?). The ghosts are good in their effect but they feel somewhat odd in the moveset as presented, with Mordekaiser being a straight-out brawler for the most part. Mace of Spades/Iron Man is pretty cool, though sometimes I feel it is not adequately accounted for power-wise in the set, and I do like the metal manipulating. In fact I feel the Master of Metal should have done some more metal manipulation to help smooth over, say, lighter attacks, and could have given him a bit more to play with in his brawler style.

This moveset doesn't have no redeeming qualities, I actually fairly like the Up Smash and Down tilt for example, the Up Smash is actually really cool in the moveset, and I'm also a big fan of the Back Throw, which reminds me of the one throw I had in that unfinished Mokou moveset. It's got enough that I don't really hate it, but the complaints outweigh the compliments.

Fragile Fragrance

I find it odd that L'Belle is weight 7 and that some of his moves hit so HARD. Yes, he's a murderer, but he doesn't exactly strike me as the heavyset hitting type of murderer, especially when his murder is primarily via a weapon. Why is it that L'Belle can do a huge 27% damage on his Down Aerial, which is quite a bit more than most characters? A sweetspotted Knee of Justice is 19% damage, Ganondorf's Thunderstomp if sweetspotted does 22% and AFAIK that's the strongest of, like, any down aerial or aerial. L'Belle does 5% more than this with a lot of knockback because...he's got a spear, I guess? Yes, the move has downside (tho I will say that IDK if it is as big as made out to be), but the problem is more the flavor of L'Belle being such a hard hitter. This has been added to a lot more sensible numbers since I made typed this up, so I don't really have as big of a problem with it now, but I don't feel like rewriting the entire intro so...have a cliffnote on me applauding the number change.

Similiarly the flavor on the Down Smash is...weird. Perfume as such a strong KO option? Why not make this a big damage racking move and maybe give L'Belle a bit more of a playstyle that kills at higher %s? I also feel like, really, the spear should have been L'Belle's primary/only KO option (not just one spear move, but that the KO moves should be spear moves), which fits with it being a murder weapon at all and seems better flavor-animation wise. I find this moveset's focus on shields rather discordant with the focus on damage over time with the perfume. BUT you've now edited it to be better, so this complaint is not as valid: I kept the original part of the comment here for posterity's sake. You definitely needed a subtheme LIKE shields but they don't play well with the way your perfume and perfume interactions work and because of that it feels disjointed. The shield game itself isn't innovative, but it does work, so it's not bad in a vacuum, just not working with the set. There's some I do like, such as Down Tilt, though.

I find the spear disappearing...weird. It could add depth, but in the moveset feels out of place as the moveset already struggles for inputs due to low potential, and you could have just had L'Belle get the spear back like pretty much any thrown weapon in Brawl (Link's Arrows/Bombs/Boomerang for example) without having all the huss and fuss. It feels unnecessarily added. Similiarly, some of the interactions seem...forced, or weird. The most prominent forced one to me is the Neutral Aerial, where for some reason L'Belle gets a power buff if the color of his hair matches the color of the perfume? It doesn't feel like it fits logically and isn't necessarily intuitive since the hair/perfume color matching is a one off with a minor payoff. It feels like a forced addition to the Neutral Aerial to try and give it something "more" when it had nothing more it needed. The shoulder-phone ringing giving him bonus damage doesn't feel as forced but instead feels weird and I have no idea why it gives him a power boost.

Something I want to bring up: the Down Special feels really awkward as its own Special. While it has healing, true, it mostly feels like a way to mode switch your perfume and hair. Similiarly, the counter on the Up Smash feels very out of place. I would have found a way to combine the Neutral Special and Down Special and moved the Up Smash's counter to the Down Special, which would have read and, IMO, played cleaner. Also something I nearly forgot to mention and am going back and putting in this comment, so it looks a bit out of place but w/e, is that I actually quite like L'Belle's pummel of all things.

The perfume is, for the most part, okay, as mentioned I find the Down Smash weird, and I do feel that while it is good you didn't go crazy, the perfume coulda used a bit more to it than the mostly strict power buffs, maybe a bit of status effecting or something, though it still plays well, and the set at least feels fairly balanced. There's a bit of contradiction in the moveset wanting to apply a lot of pressure yet wanting a lot of setup that feels like wasted potential, it could have been interwoven into the set more, but it isn't the worst. L'Belle is also pretty low potential, so it's not surprising that a lot of "could bes" didn't come into fruition, since...well, he's damn hard to make! A fairly high point is the writing, which wile at times can rub a bit off in not the right ways, for the most part quite works with the character and has amusing chunks to it, so it is at least usually fun to read.

Warlord Joins The Mafia

Something interesting about Polpo to me is that what I liked and disliked about the set is the opposite of what I'd expect beforehand. I enjoyed most of the food parts of the moveset and felt a fair amount of the Black Sabbath stuff was eh. One of the immediate things I felt eh about is that Black Sabbath's shadow manipulation feels like it oversteps the character's bounds and turns him into too much of an outright shadow manipulator, which isn't very fitting, the Back Throw is a big offender to me (and the animation feels outright cartoonish). The biggest thing I dislike is the use of the Stand Arrow as a weapon repeatedly in the moveset, when Black Sabbath not only used it a lot as a test, but it had a very specific use in the moveset...perhaps more importantly, while the current Final Smash is funny, the Stand Arrow feels like a perfect Final Smash to Polpo for me, the finisher at the end of the trial that kills them, as if they had failed the trial by battling him. This is admittedly more of a personal thing, but then this is a personal comment, so.

A surprising amount of the food moves are good, though some of the animations are...off. I do love the comical size of the pizza, in a good way, and how it works is nice, and this moveset feels like it shows a good way to use old material with the banana peel. On the flipside, the pepper shakers are just plain bad, with a forced effect, bizarre input placement, and overall something better removed. The sub sandwich's animation is also rather funny, as my mind breaks a little when I try to imagine Polpo taking a baseball player's stance at all, presumably before his weight collapses upon him. I feel like Polpo should have had a true dash attack as the current one feels odd to play with, Polpo could have had a tripping or belly flop Dash Attack, or have had Black Sabbath pop out to attack (maybe it could be used as a way to recall it quickly?). The Neutral Special and Up Special of the set seem good, the Up Special is rather basic (and before a small edit had a bit of OPness), but the idea of moving objects to allow you to move to more spaces feels fitting.

The aerials are rather a weak point in the set, most notably the pepper shakes and Forward Aerial. The Back Aerial grape interaction is one of the most unnecessary I've ever seen, with it feeling pretty random on a Back Aerial, the BAir having enough already, the effect being small unless another specific interaction is used, and a rather funny animation and bizarre use. This should really just be cut from the move.
 
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II find it odd that L'Belle is weight 7 and that some of his moves hit so HARD. Yes, he's a murderer, but he doesn't exactly strike me as the heavyset hitting type of murderer, especially when his murder is primarily via a weapon. Why is it that L'Belle can do a huge 27% damage on his Down Aerial, which is quite a bit more than most characters? A sweetspotted Knee of Justice is 19% damage, Ganondorf's Thunderstomp if sweetspotted does 22% and AFAIK that's the strongest of, like, any down aerial or aerial. L'Belle does 5% more than this with a lot of knockback because...he's got a spear, I guess? Yes, the move has downside (tho I will say that IDK if it is as big as made out to be), but the problem is more the flavor of L'Belle being such a hard hitter. This has been added to a lot more sensible numbers since I made typed this up, so I don't really have as big of a problem with it now, but I don't feel like rewriting the entire intro so...have a cliffnote on me applauding the number change.

Similiarly the flavor on the Down Smash is...weird. Perfume as such a strong KO option? Why not make this a big damage racking move and maybe give L'Belle a bit more of a playstyle that kills at higher %s? I also feel like, really, the spear should have been L'Belle's primary/only KO option (not just one spear move, but that the KO moves should be spear moves), which fits with it being a murder weapon at all and seems better flavor-animation wise. I find this moveset's focus on shields rather discordant with the focus on damage over time with the perfume. BUT you've now edited it to be better, so this complaint is not as valid: I kept the original part of the comment here for posterity's sake. You definitely needed a subtheme LIKE shields but they don't play well with the way your perfume and perfume interactions work and because of that it feels disjointed. The shield game itself isn't innovative, but it does work, so it's not bad in a vacuum, just not working with the set. There's some I do like, such as Down Tilt, though.
I would've appreciated it if you just rewrote half the comment that complains about things that aren't even in the set anymore, you admit that most of this segment isn't accurate. Somehow you missed the link between shields and the damage over time, as I state that shielding makes you immune to perfume very early in the moveset. It's very simple: they passively shield more and L'Belle pokes them while they shield. Maybe I should have stated this later as it is a key detail.

I find the spear disappearing...weird. It could add depth, but in the moveset feels out of place as the moveset already struggles for inputs due to low potential, and you could have just had L'Belle get the spear back like pretty much any thrown weapon in Brawl (Link's Arrows/Bombs/Boomerang for example) without having all the huss and fuss. It feels unnecessarily added. Similiarly, some of the interactions seem...forced, or weird. The most prominent forced one to me is the Neutral Aerial, where for some reason L'Belle gets a power buff if the color of his hair matches the color of the perfume? It doesn't feel like it fits logically and isn't necessarily intuitive since the hair/perfume color matching is a one off with a minor payoff. It feels like a forced addition to the Neutral Aerial to try and give it something "more" when it had nothing more it needed. The shoulder-phone ringing giving him bonus damage doesn't feel as forced but instead feels weird and I have no idea why it gives him a power boost.
The forward smash is very powerful and the handicap of losing the spear was added both to balance it and add depth to the move. Brawl Link doesn't exactly "get back" his bomb or arrows in Brawl, he just has an infinite stock of them, and his boomerang... do I really need to explain that one? In any case L'Belle is not a competent fighter and having him spam throw his one spear would've betrayed the character and been an outright worse move. I would also never remove the "buffs" on the neutral aerial and dash attack that are mostly there for flavour. They only add 1% to the attack. It is slightly more relevant to a character like this who focuses on damage, but in principle you may as well complain about Luigi's down taunt being an attack.

Something I want to bring up: the Down Special feels really awkward as its own Special. While it has healing, true, it mostly feels like a way to mode switch your perfume and hair. Similiarly, the counter on the Up Smash feels very out of place. I would have found a way to combine the Neutral Special and Down Special and moved the Up Smash's counter to the Down Special, which would have read and, IMO, played cleaner. Also something I nearly forgot to mention and am going back and putting in this comment, so it looks a bit out of place but w/e, is that I actually quite like L'Belle's pummel of all things.
Yes, the down special is mostly a way to switch hair colour and is a weak heal. It's pretty weird that you of all people want to combine it with the up smash into one super move that does everything. I tried to keep it simple and I see nothing wrong with either move. Changing your hair colour is pretty important in general, and besides from counters tending to be on down specials (L'Belle's up smash not exactly being a typical counter anyway) I don't see why these moves have anything in common.

The perfume is, for the most part, okay, as mentioned I find the Down Smash weird, and I do feel that while it is good you didn't go crazy, the perfume coulda used a bit more to it than the mostly strict power buffs, maybe a bit of status effecting or something, though it still plays well, and the set at least feels fairly balanced. There's a bit of contradiction in the moveset wanting to apply a lot of pressure yet wanting a lot of setup that feels like wasted potential, it could have been interwoven into the set more, but it isn't the worst. L'Belle is also pretty low potential, so it's not surprising that a lot of "could bes" didn't come into fruition, since...well, he's damn hard to make! A fairly high point is the writing, which wile at times can rub a bit off in not the right ways, for the most part quite works with the character and has amusing chunks to it, so it is at least usually fun to read.
The perfume's execution is about as straightforward as it can be so I am surprised you want status effects. I already felt like the perfume was erring on the side of ridiculous, and the move you absolutely hate for being weird, down smash, is one of the moves where I use it most creatively without going into status effects. I don't think it's fair to say L'Belle has "a lot of setup,." his one set up move is meant to be spammable, and that's all he needs to set up, I can't see how it could be easier unless every perfume move also left the lingering perfume (invalidating the neutral special). You seem to basically say throughout your comment that I struck a decent balance, not going "crazy" with the concepts, that it plays well. I don't think I'd be wrong to say most of your complaints are either literally invalidated by edits I did that you mention in the comment, or missing a key detail like with the shield game. I honestly feel like you should give the set a second shot.
 
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FrozenRoy

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"I would've appreciated it if you just rewrote half the comment that complains about things that aren't even in the set anymore, you admit that most of this segment isn't accurate. Somehow you missed the link between shields and the damage over time, as I state that shielding makes you immune to perfume very early in the moveset. It's very simple: they passively shield more and L'Belle pokes them while they shield. Maybe I should have stated this later as it is a key detail."

It's a bit less than half, but I mostly didn't rewrite it because it was late and I was tired (I'm waking up early to watch the League of Legends Worlds Championship), hence why I wrote cliffnotes about how it got changed. I've done this in the past, so.

Why would someone just shield inside the perfume, though? It lasts 10 seconds and they can't DO anything but grab and roll after all, so why would they just stand inside of your perfume shielding for any reasonable amount of time? The way they're going to try and avoid perfume would be movement and rolling, or attacking L'Belle if he's outside of them. If L'Belle sits in them and camps, then they're not going to be advancing by shielding. It's a technical flow in the sense that if the opponent does it, yes, it flows, but the opponent to me felt like they had little reason to shield inside the perfume to avoid damage, when it is one of their weaker options to do so. Even if the entire stage is full of perfume, which is rather unlikely, standing there shielding is a recipe for disaster even without L'Belle's shield damage, and they'd just be breaking their shield via natural shrinking. They'll mostly just shield as normal within your perfume, I'd think.

"The forward smash is very powerful and the handicap of losing the spear was added both to balance it and add depth to the move. Brawl Link doesn't exactly "get back" his bomb or arrows in Brawl, he just has an infinite stock of them, and his boomerang... do I really need to explain that one? In any case L'Belle is not a competent fighter and having him spam throw his one spear would've betrayed the character and been an outright worse move. I would also never remove the "buffs" on the neutral aerial and dash attack that are mostly there for flavour. They only add 1% to the attack. It is slightly more relevant to a character like this who focuses on damage, but in principle you may as well complain about Luigi's down taunt being an attack."

The thing is that I don't like the flavor they bring, which is my point. It doesn't feel like flavor that enhances the character, it doesn't feel like flavor that is logical, it doesn't feel like flavor that will be apparent to the reader and it doesn't feel like flavor that is natural. It feels like flavor that is stapled onto the move for the purpose of having something there even though it doesn't especially fit. It's fine if you like it: I don't.

The Forward Smash is powerful, but I'd rather just bring it down in power and remove the downside which doesn't feel natural, than give it the downside it has. The depth isn't taken advantage of and most of the non-Spear moves for L'Belle that replace spear moves feel awkward. L'Belle already struggles for inputs and this just made the problem worse. He could just have an infinite stock of them like most Smash characters or it could be like the Down Aerial where it sticks out, not for the purposes of interaction but for gameplay (It creates a zone L'Belle wants to try and enter and the opponent's want to defend, giving additional gameplay).

If you're going to keep the downside as it is, use it, because right now it doesn't feel like something you're using to benefit in the moveset.

"Yes, the down special is mostly a way to switch hair colour and is a weak heal. It's pretty weird that you of all people want to combine it with the up smash into one super move that does everything. I tried to keep it simple and I see nothing wrong with either move. Changing your hair colour is pretty important in general, and besides from counters tending to be on down specials (L'Belle's up smash not exactly being a typical counter anyway) I don't see why these moves have anything in common."

Did you misread my comment? Combine it with the Neutral Special, which would just be "spray perfume" or "change color", and then use the Up Smash's counter on Down Special, not combine Down Special and Up Smash. So the counter would be the Down Special as a whole and the Down Special would be part of Neutral Special (it feels natural for the move to either be "spray the thing" or "change the thing you spray").

"The perfume's execution is about as straightforward as it can be so I am surprised you want status effects. I already felt like the perfume was erring on the side of ridiculous, and the move you absolutely hate for being weird, down smash, is one of the moves where I use it most creatively without going into status effects. I don't think it's fair to say L'Belle has "a lot of setup,." his one set up move is meant to be spammable, and that's all he needs to set up, I can't see how it could be easier unless every perfume move also left the lingering perfume (invalidating the neutral special). You seem to basically say throughout your comment that I struck a decent balance, not going "crazy" with the concepts, that it plays well. I don't think I'd be wrong to say most of your complaints are either literally invalidated by edits I did that you mention in the comment, or missing a key detail like with the shield game. I honestly feel like you should give the set a second shot."

Sure, I'll read it again, but I had a lot more complaints than just the HMA stuff, which I mentioned a lot: I didn't feel the shield game was very cordant and I still don't after this, I thought that the writing was good but the flavor was off, the moveset seems to throw out interactions for the sake of interaction and he doesn't have much playstyle that works well with his perfume for example. The good thing about the set is it is well-balanced and it didn't go so crazy with the concepts that it could have easily gone far, far more wrong. Oh, and the quite nice writing. As for playing well...eh. It plays well in the sense of balance and the perfume being above average but the rest doesn't speak to me.

I don't hate the Down Smash much as a concept, I just felt that the execution should have been different, being a big damage move instead of a KO move, the edits helped (since 120% isn't too high), but then I mentioned in the comment that the change of the Down Smash helped me like it more. He has a lot of setup in the sense that a lot of his moves want perfume out, he's gonna want to put perfume in a lot of places for it, later keep the perfume up, and that he's a lot weaker without it, making him pretty setup dependant. If he wants to go aggressive, he wants perfume there, which means setting it up there or beforehand.

Of course, this is just my opinion on it, sooo other people might like it more.
 
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