Mafia Sleepover: The Finale [ Town Wins - Pokemon Sight seeing]

[Protean-]

HE'S NOT ****ING INACTIVE.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

Will lynch: JexS. Bunzy.
Compromise: J > Gova > Arcane > Potassium.
Unsure: Protein-, Murderbush.
Will not lynch: Werekill, BardulL, Levi.

These are what I want. Currently I'm unsure on Protein and Murderbush, especially since MB seems to like JexS even better now for I don't know what. (Which is why I'm waiting for him to talk to me about it) Protein I'm still unsure from his opening interaction/push on us. Again, it vibes of reacting to defend a partner, connection. Plus, I agree with (someone) saying that their calling my actions 'better' read as premature. I think Gova was wondering why as well. But this is why I frickin' want Jex gone first so I can have a better understanding, not Protein arguing to me until I say "yes, I submit, J is scum."

Now, on J and Gova. J has been and is still null and I don't see the case. Yet he has been viewing and has still not managed to step up and bring out content. If he doesn't do so and lurks past this, I'm fine with his lynch going through, and I will support it. Yet at this time I'm going to try my best to get votes on Jex/Dabooze.

With Jexy, I have recently noticed Protein's arguments on him, for example, his mechanical bringing of the bardull posts. It shows he isn't thinking about the meaning, and his progression from Dabuz to BardulL is concerning. If he really were ok with Dabuz feeling better about him, he would come to that conclusion when I questioned him.

On Levi. I can understand his confidence when wanting to lynch Protein, and dislike that his push on Dabuz was lacking the same confidence and push. As much as I'm feeling Bunzy, I'm not liking him retracting into a shell. He said he would be doing everything in his power to push Dabuz, but that is not the case. He's just not someone I'd want to lynch D1.

 

[Protean-]

HE'S NOT ****ING INACTIVE.

And even if you think he is, it doesn't matter. You have to judge a player on the content he posts. Saying "he's inactive" is a ****ing weak cop-out to actually reading his own content and judging it.

 

[Lore]

thats like half of why i asked you if you had considered it so i could get a better read lol

having grown out of it and realizing why it's bad to be like that; i'm okay with lynching him even though i'm null on him

Still rereading, and I am not a fan of this sentiment at all.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

First up: Leviathan.

Once more, we have a major issue with his Dabunz case. It has NO valid footing to support such a strong desire to lynch. If you look at Leviathan's post #818, you will find the following explanation:


1.] Personally, I think this is a load of horse****. If you look at the explanation he has given, he has shoved ALL of Dabuz's efforts to play the game into two categories: 'Useless' or 'Obvious'. Meanwhile, he has Ran as a Town read, despite asking many similar questions. The fact of the matter is, asking simple questions is a major part of mafia. You open a dialogue with another player, and you create a paper trail, so they cannot claim to be misunderstood later. It pins people down, and allows you to better gauge them.

Now, the Ran example is not a fair one, I will admit. It is simply used to show that it is a technique used by other players. And Ran has done more this game. Dabuz has not played a super-stellar Town game, but the reasons stated by Leviathan add up to a NULL read, not a SCUM read.

2.] As for his comment about "taking down his most vocal opponent", that is an INCREDIBLE assignment of motive. He has NO grounds to assume that motive, or to use it as a reason to pursue that lynch. For a player with a Town-lean on J, he has no right to call out ANY player for their lack of unique pushes. Especially with Dabuz leaving behind a paper trail at every juncture. Hell, at least Dabuz HAS pushes, unlike half this cast!

3.] Sorry, but this read MAKES. NO. SENSE. I believe the only reason he still holds it is because he got caught with it early in the game. Go read back, if you're interested. Look where this read originated. None of this explanation can truly cover his original claim of Dabuzscum, nor does it explain how a previously pointed-out set-up of the slot upon EITHER Protean flip.

Moving forward, you can see his explanation of J null-town, Gova-Null and Arcane Inferno scum.

4.] J I have a simple problem with. He simply tries to brush his explanation of the read under the rug. He claims that there are 'subtle differences' in his play from the mini that strike him as 'likelier to come from a Townie than scum'. That is something akin to saying, "I think J is Town, because reasons." Would you be convinced by that? Because I'm not.

5.] Look at his Gova-Null read. This is a COMPLETE cop-out. Gova has made a few KEY posts, such as the one Arcane Inferno noted, concerning Protean, early in the game. As well as his exchange with us after our first explanation of our reads, talking about Jexs. To say he's done nothing is a GROSS overstatement.

6.] And finally, his explanation for Arcane Inferno scum. The theme of 'assignment of intent' is still present here. Assuming Arcane Inferno scum, setting up a partner is quite frankly, ridiculous. You can make that argument for literally any player in this game, for pretty much ANY OTHER SLOT in this game. It's WIFOM and a half, and doesn't matter either way until we have a flip. Just like Dabuz, he's including slander to make his push seem stronger.

This slot needs to go, and is currently my leading choice.

1.] This case starts off weak. The difference between Ranmaru and Bunzy is so obvious and isn't worth talking about. You basically call Bunzy a slower Ranmaru and say I'm wrong because it doesn't fit your definition of a null read. Your null is different from my null. Your scum tells (obviously) are different from mine. I appreciate the sensationalist language here, but this isn't even a point for me being scum and is synonymous for not playing the game how you do.

2.] I assign scummy motives to those I find scummy. Bunzy has literally said nothing original this game. J has, albeit a minor suspicion. You keep pointing to the other players and screaming, "Leviathan is treating THIS player like THIS but THAT OTHER playier is doing the same thing!" when you're putting no thought into why I differentiate between players the way I do. Bunzy having pushes when other players don't is irrelevant.

3.] Set-up was already explained. You're assuming that wanting Bunzy <-> Protean gone back-to-back necessitated a correlation between the two for no reason. Well, the reason is probably because that is how you personally play the game.

4.] This isn't scummy.

5.] I actually won't fight you on this one; you might be right. I haven't been paying much attention to Gova and don't remember from him outside of wanting to lynch Protean- to going to Protean- Town to sheeping you. That is my perception of the slot this game.

6.] This ignores the bulk of my dislike which was Arcane's pushes. You're just picking at trivial things at this point.

 

[Lore]

And even if you think he is, it doesn't matter. You have to judge a player on the content he posts. Saying "he's inactive" is a ****ing weak cop-out to actually reading his own content and judging it.

I AM reading his content, and I'm just not seeing him as scum. Maybe Murder's case on J will bring up something I've missed, but I highly, highly doubt it.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

Werekill, I think it's important that you put down a vote on a major wagon at this point in time.

So look at these: JexS, Levi, J, Bunzy.

 

[Protean-]

Will lynch: JexS. Bunzy.
Compromise: J > Gova > Arcane > Potassium.
Unsure: Protein-, Murderbush.
Will not lynch: Werekill, BardulL, Levi.

These are what I want. Currently I'm unsure on Protein and Murderbush, especially since MB seems to like JexS even better now for I don't know what. (Which is why I'm waiting for him to talk to me about it) Protein I'm still unsure from his opening interaction/push on us. Again, it vibes of reacting to defend a partner, connection. Plus, I agree with (someone) saying that their calling my actions 'better' read as premature. I think Gova was wondering why as well. But this is why I frickin' want Jex gone first so I can have a better understanding, not Protein arguing to me until I say "yes, I submit, J is scum."

Now, on J and Gova. J has been and is still null and I don't see the case. Yet he has been viewing and has still not managed to step up and bring out content. If he doesn't do so and lurks past this, I'm fine with his lynch going through, and I will support it. Yet at this time I'm going to try my best to get votes on Jex/Dabooze.

With Jexy, I have recently noticed Protein's arguments on him, for example, his mechanical bringing of the bardull posts. It shows he isn't thinking about the meaning, and his progression from Dabuz to BardulL is concerning. If he really were ok with Dabuz feeling better about him, he would come to that conclusion when I questioned him.

On Levi. I can understand his confidence when wanting to lynch Protein, and dislike that his push on Dabuz was lacking the same confidence and push. As much as I'm feeling Bunzy, I'm not liking him retracting into a shell. He said he would be doing everything in his power to push Dabuz, but that is not the case. He's just not someone I'd want to lynch D1.

Ran, there's a reason I've been dogging you about talking about J. Your entire presence this game is practically hooked to Jexs. You've spent this whole game following him around and dragging opinions out of him on everything, even going as far as withholding your own opinion because you feel obligated to drag more bull**** out of Jexs first. We get it, we know you think he's scum, but unlike what I'm doing with J, you've dragged this on the whole game. Your ****ing first move into the thread was to park your ass onto Jexs, albeit that was Zen's doing. As soon as you entered the thread, you continued dogging that slot. I want to see what you think without Jexs. I want to see what you think, I want to see your thoughts, and I want to see them without their relation to Jexs. I haven't been able to do that with you all game. Even now you're making reads based on how they've interacted with that slot when you don't even have Jexs' scumflip in your hand.

That and it's absolutely maddening to me how people can even excuse J's play thus far because as I see it there's literally no reason for it.

 

[Protean-]

I AM reading his content, and I'm just not seeing him as scum. Maybe Murder's case on J will bring up something I've missed, but I highly, highly doubt it.

Bad read

 

[Dramatic Flair]

J is a slot that until JUST NOW, has done nothing. J is also a slot that benefited from the specific players being online during the time he spouted a torrent of bull**** at Protean. Online at the time to support him were bleeding hearts: Jexs and Werekill, as well as a Ran who is conflicted due to previous being wrong on his J reads. He goads Protean during this exchange and half-plays victim to the rage he inspires and half-plays 'moral high ground', which was a hit at the box office.

However, like any good critic, I abhorred the performance. You may have gotten under Protean's skin, calling his arguments insipid, but you will not find us as easy to rattle. And if you continue to linger, you will learn that our vocabulary and haughty air can match your own.

Down to business. Protean was correct in many ways concerning J's slot. However, his delivery was atrocious, and J uses this to sweep much of what he is saying under the rug.

Play the game, stop hiding on the sidelines poking and basically washing your hands of any sort of dirty work, make some actual ****ing moves, and stop crying when people suspect you for suspicious play, "I don't play D1" bull**** or no.

This is the core of the problem. What it all boils down to and the central point. J's reads are weak, and his only lynch targets are those that he would 'be okay with seeing purged'. The way he treats this game is one in which he moves to alleviate all responsibility for his actions. By having no strong reads, and only a list of players he would 'not be too sad about seeing removed', he is able to avoid association unless it profits him.

The other major point against this slot is the way he's interacted with Protean, goading him into anger, and sweeping that central point under the rug.

My challenge to anyone who would defend this slot is to go back and READ.

Please, show me where I am wrong. Tell me how intentionally making Protean angry and refusing to engage in meaningful interaction to help discern his alignment is a pro-Town move. ESPECIALLY when the charge is that he wouldn't get his hands dirty. This slot is currently our #2, and we would also love to see gone.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

@Amidamaru

I'm not God. I need votes to lynch Bunzy. I am juggling going at him while defending myself from a wagon while slots like Potassium, BarDulL, Gova, J, and Arcane Inferno come every once in a while without shaking and moving the thread. You haven't seen the tenacity towards Bunzy I had with Protean- because Bunzy doesn't have as much content or presence (multiposts) as Protean- did at the time and the circumstances are different. I'm trying, but there isn't much to work with here.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

@ #HBC | Amidamaru We need to have a long talk.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

I'm here. Talk to me.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

@Protein-: I'm just not trusting you. You see things that can be indictative of JexS scum but you seem to downplay it simply as 'bad' play. I also don't like your interaction with me when asking Dabuz why he hasn't been as wally and analytical as I'd like. I also feel that this push on J was coming out of your ass. You started it only because J forced the issue, you never brought it up on a re-read or anything. You were warming up to Levi and as soon as I dropped off you moved onto J.

As I said I'm cool with supporting his lynch if he lurks past this all. Even I have asked him questions that were concerning me and he has yet to answer those. But now you can see why I'm having pause with you.

MB is another story.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

I also don't see how you (both heads) see town play in Dabooze even though his presence is lacking.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

Will lynch: JexS. Bunzy.
Compromise: J > Gova > Arcane > Potassium.
Unsure: Protein-, Murderbush.
Will not lynch: Werekill, BardulL, Levi.

These are what I want. Currently I'm unsure on Protein and Murderbush, especially since MB seems to like JexS even better now for I don't know what. (Which is why I'm waiting for him to talk to me about it) Protein I'm still unsure from his opening interaction/push on us. Again, it vibes of reacting to defend a partner, connection. Plus, I agree with (someone) saying that their calling my actions 'better' read as premature. I think Gova was wondering why as well. But this is why I frickin' want Jex gone first so I can have a better understanding, not Protein arguing to me until I say "yes, I submit, J is scum."

Now, on J and Gova. J has been and is still null and I don't see the case. Yet he has been viewing and has still not managed to step up and bring out content. If he doesn't do so and lurks past this, I'm fine with his lynch going through, and I will support it. Yet at this time I'm going to try my best to get votes on Jex/Dabooze.

With Jexy, I have recently noticed Protein's arguments on him, for example, his mechanical bringing of the bardull posts. It shows he isn't thinking about the meaning, and his progression from Dabuz to BardulL is concerning. If he really were ok with Dabuz feeling better about him, he would come to that conclusion when I questioned him.

On Levi. I can understand his confidence when wanting to lynch Protein, and dislike that his push on Dabuz was lacking the same confidence and push. As much as I'm feeling Bunzy, I'm not liking him retracting into a shell. He said he would be doing everything in his power to push Dabuz, but that is not the case. He's just not someone I'd want to lynch D1.

This cannot stand, friend.

You have a hard-on for that JexS read. It is currently influencing the entirety of your read's list.

I need from you an analysis of why you would lynch Dabuz, especially in light of his most recent post that hits many of the points we hit before we could hit them. More important than that, however, I IMPLORE you to rethink your read on Leviathan. I think the only reasons you like this slot are due to the way he came into the thread and the fact that he currently backs your Dabuz push. I ask you to read through what I've posted and respond to me. His Dabuz read is complete bogus. Go back and read our earlier analysis of him for the point on how he set-up a lynch in the event of Protean's flip. I need you to validate why LEVIATHAN'S (re: not your) push of Dabuz is legitimate. I THEN need you to look again at Dabuz, INDEPENDENTLY OF YOUR LEVIATHAN ANALYSIS (and preferably after) to decide if it is really worth a lynch compared to other slots in this game.

I will get to JexS while you get to that, but note that JexS is still high on my scum list, so don't expect game changing analysis.

I would also ask you to get Zen involved in this game.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

I'll go back and read, but I also want to talk about Protein-. So you get JexS, and Protein-, and I'll get to what you asked.

 

[Lore]

This is the core of the problem. What it all boils down to and the central point. J's reads are weak, and his only lynch targets are those that he would 'be okay with seeing purged'. The way he treats this game is one in which he moves to alleviate all responsibility for his actions. By having no strong reads, and only a list of players he would 'not be too sad about seeing removed', he is able to avoid association unless it profits him.

This is actually a valid point, I can't really argue against it. I apologize for not considering this angle before, I just assumed it was a throw away "people who can die" read to show he was at least giving out lynch targets.

... Which is a good way to fake content and try to earn quick town points. **** I'm an idiot.

I am 100% not voting Levi, but I can get behind a J lynch. However, I feel like Gova might be doing similar things, minus the read list. He needs to get his butt in here.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

On Zen, I'll try to get him involved. Now that Monster is over, I can say that he was focusing on that.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

And then when you're done with that Amidamaru, feel free to read my own posts and go back to your original and correct conclusion.

mUrDErBUSh doesn't actually care about your opinion or directions on where you want to lynch nor is he reading my posts with any effort put into finding my motivations. Note how he just said I'm supporting your Bunzy read, when I was the first one to go for Bunzy. He's just trying to mold you into thinking like him and voting with him. Not scummy, just Machiavellian.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

@Protein-: I'm just not trusting you. You see things that can be indictative of JexS scum but you seem to downplay it simply as 'bad' play. I also don't like your interaction with me when asking Dabuz why he hasn't been as wally and analytical as I'd like. I also feel that this push on J was coming out of your ***. You started it only because J forced the issue, you never brought it up on a re-read or anything. You were warming up to Levi and as soon as I dropped off you moved onto J.

As I said I'm cool with supporting his lynch if he lurks past this all. Even I have asked him questions that were concerning me and he has yet to answer those. But now you can see why I'm having pause with you.

MB is another story.

Yikes man. That J push didn't read natural to you? It was spur of the moment, but that doesn't invalidate it. J's response simply fed the issue and made it worse. Where did you GO this game? I spent the entirety of my JexS push pointing out how very possible it was he's simply bad town. That's entirely what my new analysis will be, spots that look like bad town, not necessarily scum.

 

[Lore]

Murderbush and Bunz agreeing makes me feel like there may be some validity to Bunz going against Levi, but my hard town read on Levi is likely clouding my perceptions. Backing my scum read on Bunz down to null while I reread.

Until I decide otherwise, Unvote Vote: J. I may hop on Bunz after the reread, but him and Levi could just be TvT. I dunno.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

I'll go back and read, but I also want to talk about Protein-. So you get JexS, and Protein-, and I'll get to what you asked.

What do you want on Protean? Unless my prior post covered it. Like, what, in specific, do you need?

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

It read to me as Protein- trying to force J's playstyle of not playing D1 as scummy and then more things came along. Compare that with my initial distrust of Protein-, and also see how I want to talk about protein before we move on further. Again, I'll be looking back and giving a better read/analysis on what you asked so we can talk this out.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

Yeah, you're going to have to ask me specific questions about Protean, but do it when you get through.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

@Arcane Inferno I would like to have a long conversation with you two, particularly Frozenflame.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

What do you want on Protean? Unless my prior post covered it. Like, what, in specific, do you need?

Well I need you to look at your original points on Protein-. You had him as suspicious but re-evaluated because you felt he was trying to start a dialogue with me. But that's not the vibe I get. It was a reaction. The 'wot'. It seem connection related. Plus I still feel that him liking me wasn't really timed well. I also want you to talk about Gorf sitting back too.

Tell me how his push on me compares with his play now I guess. I'll bring up more stuff later as I read.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

I don't really give half a **** about Gorf. That would be like disliking your slot for Zen sitting back or disliking us for Raz sitting back. I'm curious why you feel that is an issue.

His initial push on you was ill-timed and poor. I've said as much already. However, it was the beginning of the game, so I can give it to him because, as you've noticed, he makes it a point to DIRECTLY interact with players. This gets him into the game immediately by latching onto something. The only way I can see that his push looks sinister instead of just bad is in the event that JexS is scum, but given the work that slot has done toward scum hunting, I would not lynch them even with a JexS scumflip. That slot and your own are my two largest town reads.

tl;dr

His opening push was bad because it was his first attempt to get into the game, so he took whatever excuse he could to open with a strong stance.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

OH yeah, another thing. You said you set up a trap for Protein- to fall in as scum, and he didn't fall in it. You were saying that he was being consistent (I think) and him not caving in maked you like him. I can't see how that works when it comes to Laundry. I think he played well as scum in Monster, so I don't see why him not caving means that he is simply not scum. Could it not be possible he scum playing well? Not that it means he is, but I'm just wondering why you came to that conclusion from that.

 

[#HBC | Amidamaru]

Ok, reading.

 

[Protean-]

This is actually a valid point, I can't really argue against it. I apologize for not considering this angle before, I just assumed it was a throw away "people who can die" read to show he was at least giving out lynch targets.

... Which is a good way to fake content and try to earn quick town points. **** I'm an idiot.

I am 100% not voting Levi, but I can get behind a J lynch. However, I feel like Gova might be doing similar things, minus the read list. He needs to get his butt in here.

 

[Protean-]

still watching new korra episodes with sophie, will be back in a bit

 

[Dramatic Flair]

OH yeah, another thing. You said you set up a trap for Protein- to fall in as scum, and he didn't fall in it. You were saying that he was being consistent (I think) and him not caving in maked you like him. I can't see how that works when it comes to Laundry. I think he played well as scum in Monster, so I don't see why him not caving means that he is simply not scum. Could it not be possible he scum playing well? Not that it means he is, but I'm just wondering why you came to that conclusion from that.

First and foremost, that was not the primary reason we switched, that was the final nail in the coffin.

Our vote switch was born out of the second discussion that Raz and I had this game, where we analyzed the game and came to the conclusions reached in our first big statement of reads on Page 15 or 16.

Second, the emotional rollercoaster that slot was on during the window that our post was made should have made it VERY EASY for him to fall into such a trap, and he didn't.

To top it off, I (Ryker) have been playing mafia with Laundry since I started playing the game. I find scumLaundry with precision, but I think you will be hard-pressed to find even a SINGLE game in which a mafiaLaundry has convinced me that he was Town. So take that as you will.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

@ Dramatic Flair
@ryker

Let's say you had a daycop ability where you scanned me Town. What effect does this have on your reads?

@ #HBC | Amidamaru

Please ask mUrDErBUSh this question if he doesn't answer in his next post. It's useful, isn't it? If he doesn't, I'd suggest offering a partnership to someone who is interested in you past jerking you around.

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

EBWOP: @HBC | Ryker

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

EBWOP: @#HBC | Ryker

Hahah, I can't get a break.

 

[Lore]

So in this order, I am fine with these three slots going: J > Bunz > Gova. Bunz and Gova are fairly close to each other.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

The only change would be you moving to town. The rest of our reads are independent of our read on you and even if we 100% knew you were town, your reads are so colossally bad that they wouldn't make it into our scumlist. We would probably actually try and get you to vote with us instead of ignoring you.

Now, will you please stop being a manipulative ****head? I know you don't think that your comments will be received by Ran and those who view it. Your only purpose is to get a rise and I have made it my mission not to give one this game. Time to change tact, mate.

 

[Protean-]

@ Dramatic Flair
@ryker

Let's say you had a daycop ability where you scanned me Town. What effect does this have on your reads?

what the **** is this hypothetical

 

[#HBC | Leviathan]

I wasn't trying to get a rise. Just an idea of who's closer to the scum side in the null pile. I was manipulative to ensure a response.

@ Rockin

Votecount please.