Mafia Role Discussion

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Oh, I get it now. What you're saying is, the opportunist is forced to choose a side either once BOTH sides have lost at least once member, in which case he can PICK a side, or when one side looses three members before the other side even looses one, in which case he MUST side with the loosing side.

That makes sense.

Just out of curiosity though, a couple Q's:

1.) Like KK said, if the mafia is comprised of only 3 players and by some amazing stroke of luck (i.e., perfect doc protection and indy/vig NK choice is correct on top of two correct lynched or 2 perfect NKs + correct lynch) they all die before the town looses a single player, would the Opportunist be forced to join the mafia and be it's sole member, or would the game resolve before the effect triggers and he'd win with the town?

2.) Similar to the first situation, what would happen if a townie is lynched D1, and two townies and a Maf all die N1 (example: Mafia kills townie, Indy kills townie, vig kills Maf)? In this scenario, the requirements that would trigger both choosing effects would happen at the same time. Does the opportunist get to pick his side in this case, or must he sympathize?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So in a game with 3 mafia what happens if the 3 mafia all die 1-2-3?

1.) Like KK said, if the mafia is comprised of only 3 players and by some amazing stroke of luck (i.e., perfect doc protection and indy/vig NK choice is correct on top of two correct lynched or 2 perfect NKs + correct lynch) they all die before the town looses a single player, would the Opportunist be forced to join the mafia and be it's sole member, or would the game resolve before the effect triggers and he'd win with the town?

As I said, the opportunist starts as a vanilla. If all mafia members die he wins with the townies since he's one of them at this point. As long as he doesn't take the side of the mafia he belongs to the townspeople and wins with them.

2.) Similar to the first situation, what would happen if a townie is lynched D1, and two townies and a Maf all die N1 (example: Mafia kills townie, Indy kills townie, vig kills Maf)? In this scenario, the requirements that would trigger both choosing effects would happen at the same time. Does the opportunist get to pick his side in this case, or must he sympathize?

This is just my opinion but personally I'd force him to side with the townspeople for "balance" sake...however since both options are viable you might as well leave it to the host of the game. Both options are possible so I don't see the issue here.

Actually both questions are up to personal preference. If the host of the game wants the opportunist to side with the mafia if 3 of them die then we can play it that way. If he doesn't want it like that we can just do it the other way.
In both of your questions, both answers are viable for a mafia game. Those things are up to personal preference but I don't consider them big issues.

If I had to answer them:

1.) The opportunist wins with the townspeople
2.) He can choose

This is just imo though.

 

[Rockin]

@ Rockin: Your variation of the role doesn't seem too out of balance, but it could use some tweaking. I'd suggest adding a limitation to the self Docing, such as you cannot do it two nights in a row, or something along those lines. I also don't understand why self-docing would protect you from mafia/indy but not from a vig. Why are you making such an exception? It seems completely unwarranted.

I always considered the vig to be a powerful role. Maybe too powerful for a self doc to really handle. However, I was also going along the lines to not make it too powerful.

so yeah, how's about this then

As said, the self doc power can't be used twice in a row. They can protect themselves from from a mafia, indie, and vig nk.

I was thinking about calling the role 'multi-tasking doctor'. what do you think?

 

[Handorin]

Amnesiac (the way I/em use it):
At night, they may pick one role from the graveyard, until then they are considered 3rd party and don't count toward either side

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Amnesiac (the way I/em use it):
At night, they may pick one role from the graveyard, until then they are considered 3rd party and don't count toward either side

That sounds pretty broken tbh. There is virtually no risk AT ALL involved and you can basically just wait and see what happens if you're not forced to choose a side after a certain time.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

You are a Vigilante. Each night (or day), you may kill another player by PMing me their name. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Comparison Cop. Each night, you may select two players other than yourself who are currently alive. You will then be told if those two players are the same alignment or of different alignments. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Combat Medic. Each night, you may kill or protect another player by PMing me their name with the corresponding action. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Tree Stump. At any time during Day (before deadline or any player has reached a majority), you may state publicly: I AM A TREESTUMP. You will no longer have a vote, no longer count towards majority, and no longer be targetable, but you will be a confirmed townie tree stump and you will still be allowed to talk as much as you want in the thread. This effect will also take place if you die. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Gunsmith. You can check the gun registry and see whether a player has a gun. Most mafia, cops, vigilantes have guns, but serial killers don't.

You are a Recruiting Mason. You may recruit another player each night. If your target is protown, they will join your mason group. You die if you try to recruit a nontown player. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Cream Puff. Each night, you may inspect someone or protect someone. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Supersaint. Any players who hammer votes you will die immediately as well. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Goon Cop. Each Night, you may investigate one other player. If successful, you will be told whether or not that player's Role Name contains the word "Goon". You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

You are a Hunter/Vengeful Townie. If you are lynched, you may target one player immediately (with X hours). That player will also die. You are town aligned and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

---------------------------

You are an Executor. Once per game, you may make a public, bold action to execute: playername if that player has L/2 votes. That player will be lynched and the Day will end. You are [insert alignment here].

---------------------------

You are a Vanilla Cop. Each night, you may investigate one other player. If successful, you will be told whether or not that player's Role Name contains the word "Vanilla". You are mafia aligned and win when the mafia has an undeniable majority over everyone else or nothing can prevent this.

You are a Mafia Bookie. Every night, you may send me a bookie target; the player who you think is most likely to be lynched the following day. If you choose correctly, you will be allowed two nightkills the following night as a reward. Note that you can only gain a maximum of (X) extra nightkills in this way, and that extra nightkills cannot be saved to be used later.

You are a Mafia Lover. You are lovers with (X). If one of you is killed, the other will die of a broken heart immediately after the death is revealed. You are mafia aligned and win when the mafia has an undeniable majority over everyone else or nothing can prevent this.

You are a Traitor. The mafia consists of (X, Y, Z). You do not count towards the mafia's majority. You are mafia aligned and win when the mafia has an undeniable majority over everyone else or nothing can prevent this.

You are a Godfather. The mafia consists of (X, Y, Z). In addition to your group's kill, you are (Immune to nightkills and/or immune to investigations). You are mafia aligned and win when the mafia has an undeniable majority over everyone else or nothing can prevent this.

You are a Framer. During the night, you can choose one player. If this player is investigated, they will appear guilty to any investigations. You are mafia aligned and win when the mafia has an undeniable majority over everyone else or nothing can prevent this.

You are a Lawyer. During the night, you can choose one player. If this player is investigated, they will appear innocent to any investigations. You are mafia aligned and win when the mafia has an undeniable majority over everyone else or nothing can prevent this.

You are a Tailor. During the night, you can choose one player to frame or lawyer. They will appear innocent/guilty to any investigations. You are mafia aligned and win when the mafia has an undeniable majority over everyone else or nothing can prevent this.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

...you also have a bulletproof vest, which will protect you from one night kill. You (will OR will not) be notified if you are shot and your vest is used.

...you are also bulletproof, and cannot be killed at night.

...you are an (X)-shot (rolename) and may only use your power (X amount of times).

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

What exactly is the point of this role dump?

 

[Tom]

there should probably be a way to combine both tree stumps.

comparison cop is still one of my favorite roles that ive never used. xD

gunsmith is legit. i included it in a village-themed setup that i made once where the goons had guns, the vig had a gun, and the hunter had a gun, but there were 3 goons so it was still a pretty good investigation. godfather did not and serial killer did not.

goon cop/ vanilla cop are interesting ideas.

mafia bookie is awesome. mafia tailor is awesome. i would include both in a mafia together with another person (or 4 people??) but with out a godfather.

combat medic is a very FUN role to play.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Huh, alot of these roles look really interesting.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

ooh hunter, now thats a good role.

it ****s on supersaint

 

[#HBC | marshy]

its to get mods thinking. i think most if not all of these roles fall under "awesome but not used nearly enough"

 

[Tom]

/sig ned

 

[DtJ Jungle]

lack of exposure i assume :/

 

[Chaco]

Some of those would make a game incredibly hard to balance, prolly why they aren't used much.

 

[Tom]

umm not really. you'd actually have to balance the game as opposed to just play the normal numbers. but i can only guess youre talking about executor and bookie and those wouldnt be too hard to adjust the setup to.

 

[Tom]

You are Vladimir Putin, savior of Russia, ex-KGB, legendary hero and epitome of man. You stabilized the Motherland, re-establishing the rule of law, completely flipped the Russian economy from bunk to successful, and cut poverty in half. When your second presidential term ended, you decided that you liked the presidential suite and would rather stay there, so you told your successor to find a new place to live and deemed yourself Prime Minister. You have a 6th dan in judo and flip peoples **** both literally and metaphorically. You saved a television crew from a tiger by shooting it with a tranquilizer rifle, and claimed its firstborn as your pet. You once poisoned a journalist with radioactive sushi, but only because you wanted to give him spectacular samurai powers. You recently told a french reporter that you would chop his **** off. You allow sharks to swim with you. You commissioned a skyscraper in the shape of an AK-47. Remember - James Bond does not exist, but Vladimir Putin does.

Each Day, if you directly ask someone a question and they do not answer that question immediately in their next post, you can shoot them. If they are mafia aligned, they will die. If they are town aligned, the bullet will hit the mafia guy standing behind them, because that's who you were shooting at the whole time. Each Twilight phase, if you disagree with the current lynch, you can veto it. You are then allowed to choose your own lynch. Each Night, you may choose one player - if that player is town aligned, you will protect them from death, and they will receive a message confirming that you are town aligned; if that player is not town aligned, you will break their neck. If you are ever killed during the night, half-way through the next Day, you will stand up and brush yourself off, and return to the game. You are town aligned and win when the mafia is eliminated.

 

[Rockin]

You are Vladimir Putin, savior of Russia, ex-KGB, legendary hero and epitome of man. You stabilized the Motherland, re-establishing the rule of law, completely flipped the Russian economy from bunk to successful, and cut poverty in half. When your second presidential term ended, you decided that you liked the presidential suite and would rather stay there, so you told your successor to find a new place to live and deemed yourself Prime Minister. You have a 6th dan in judo and flip peoples **** both literally and metaphorically. You saved a television crew from a tiger by shooting it with a tranquilizer rifle, and claimed its firstborn as your pet. You once poisoned a journalist with radioactive sushi, but only because you wanted to give him spectacular samurai powers. You recently told a french reporter that you would chop his **** off. You allow sharks to swim with you. You commissioned a skyscraper in the shape of an AK-47. Remember - James Bond does not exist, but Vladimir Putin does.

Each Day, if you directly ask someone a question and they do not answer that question immediately in their next post, you can shoot them. If they are mafia aligned, they will die. If they are town aligned, the bullet will hit the mafia guy standing behind them, because that's who you were shooting at the whole time. Each Twilight phase, if you disagree with the current lynch, you can veto it. You are then allowed to choose your own lynch. Each Night, you may choose one player - if that player is town aligned, you will protect them from death, and they will receive a message confirming that you are town aligned; if that player is not town aligned, you will break their neck. If you are ever killed during the night, half-way through the next Day, you will stand up and brush yourself off, and return to the game. You are town aligned and win when the mafia is eliminated.

HA, way to make the Rogue pr less broken XD

 

[mask man]

Eh, roles in this topic are mostly too general imo. Needs more unique roles that aren't just adding abilities together, having a choice between actions ect.
If anybody here is from MS you know what I mean. Fiddlers from Millars Hollow.

 

[Tom]

you mean like the Piper?

 

[Chaco]

Eh, roles in this topic are mostly too general imo. Needs more unique roles that aren't just adding abilities together, having a choice between actions ect.
If anybody here is from MS you know what I mean. Fiddlers from Millars Hollow.

I read that, pretty interesting game.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

there should be more VTs than town PRs in games.

discuss.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I agree. There should also be a lot more vigs with more than 1 shot. So much fodder these days.

 

[Pierre the Scarecrow]

there should be more VTs than town PRs in games.

discuss.

I agree with this. But also it is sometimes acceptable to have the same number of vanilla townies as town power roles if some of the power roles are not investigatory or killer, like neighbors (unconfirmed closed masons), or enablers/switches, or roleblockers.

If the setup is open, the majority (of the town, maybe even of the game) should be vanilla townies.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I agree with Pierre that in open setups, the majority of town roles should be VTs.

In a closed setup though, it doesn't really matter as much, especially if the mafia are provided safeclaims or have a janitor.

As for the vig thing, yes, I agree there should be more traditional vigs in or games, especially the bigger ones, or at least more powerful third parties that can whittle down the game with equitable haste.

EDIT: What is the Fiddler/Piper role?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I think in larger games we've had normal vig's, they are just hestitant to shoot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think SWF needs more diversity in terms of roles for the mafia. More often than not it's a Goon/Godfather/Roleblocker trio (minus the GF in smaller games) and it's getting somewhat predictable because 2 of those 3 roles are in almost every game. We need way more stalkers, interceptors, hexers, bus drivers, framers, lawyers, janitors and yakuzas. Tom showed how well it works in FFVII, which was one of the most balanced mafia games so far. I think more people should follow that trend and use other roles.

 

[mask man]

The piper could play his pipe at night and choose two people. These two people would then begin to dance, and the dancers knew each other. This would happen every night and the piper would win if he could get half the town/players to dance.

In a large game with a few sanity-unknown cops, a cop that checks other cops's sanity would be cool.
"XXX is a paranoid cop."
"XXX is not a cop at all."

 

[Rockin]

I think SWF needs more diversity in terms of roles for the mafia. More often than not it's a Goon/Godfather/Roleblocker trio (minus the GF in smaller games) and it's getting somewhat predictable because 2 of those 3 roles are in almost every game. We need way more stalkers, interceptors, hexers, bus drivers, framers, lawyers, janitors and yakuzas. Tom showed how well it works in FFVII, which was one of the most balanced mafia games so far. I think more people should follow that trend and use other roles.

Well, the goon/godfather/roleblocker are the basic roles in terms of Mafia. Mafia team will get the things they need most on their side. One that is clear from cop investigations, and one that can stop either a doc, cop, or even a vigilante (Mods may vary, but you get what I'm saying).

Yeah, more originality to the Mafia side, but you can't blame the said mod in anycase. There has to be a terms of balance when doing roles. You gotta find the pros and cons of these said roles. They have to work as a team as well as it being beneficial for their cause. I can see there being some work in terms of these things.

Also, for those roles to be 'predictable,' I have yet to see a lot of games really catch up/win with these roles around, so until I see a large amount of games won with these said roles, they (to me) remain unconvinced as 'predictable roles'

 

[#HBC | Mac]

no no

we should discourage diverse roles in SWF. ppl dont know how to use/balance em and they'll probably end up annoying me than being any fun.

and who said predictable isn't good? Open games make for some of the best mafia game

 

[Tom]

using non-standard roles doesn't make the game any harder to balance at all. in fact, right now i will design a completely non-standard game that is overtly balanced (1:28 PM)

1. Gunsmith
2. Hunter (vengeful townie, gun)
3. Combat Medic (doc protect or vig kill, gun)
4. Hot Nurse (doc protect or roleblock)
5. Firefighter (hose someone down each night to remove possible gasoline)
6. Gun Collector (known miller, gun)
7. Vanilla Townie
8. Vanilla Townie
9. Vanilla Townie
10. Vanilla Townie
11. Vanilla Townie
12. Arsonist (Night prime people secretly with gasoline, any time Day PM mod to ignite them all on fire)
13. Mafia Tailor (gun, each night can choose someone to plant a gun on that night or remove their gun from play)
14. Mafia Bookie (gun)
15. Mafia Vanilla-Townie-Cop (gun)

(1:35 PM) That looks pretty good, right? And I don't think anyone has ever been any of those roles in dGames except for Vanilla Townie.


all of that said, theres no reason to forcibly mix it up. mafia games are fun even when they are repeated over and over because "standard" roles includes a LOT, and its always different because even though you've played 3 games with a godfather, when its your turn to be godfather, its very, very different. same goes with cop, doctor, vigilante.

 

[Rockin]

using non-standard roles doesn't make the game any harder to balance at all. in fact, right now i will design a completely non-standard game that is overtly balanced (1:28 PM)

1. Gunsmith
2. Hunter (vengeful townie, gun)
3. Combat Medic (doc protect or vig kill, gun)
4. Hot Nurse (doc protect or roleblock)
5. Firefighter (hose someone down each night to remove possible gasoline)
6. Gun Collector (known miller, gun)
7. Vanilla Townie
8. Vanilla Townie
9. Vanilla Townie
10. Vanilla Townie
11. Vanilla Townie
12. Arsonist (Night prime people secretly with gasoline, any time Day PM mod to ignite them all on fire)
13. Mafia Tailor (gun, each night can choose someone to plant a gun on that night or remove their gun from play)
14. Mafia Bookie (gun)
15. Mafia Vanilla-Townie-Cop (gun)

(1:35 PM) That looks pretty good, right? And I don't think anyone has ever been any of those roles in dGames except for Vanilla Townie.


all of that said, theres no reason to forcibly mix it up. mafia games are fun even when they are repeated over and over because "standard" roles includes a LOT, and its always different because even though you've played 3 games with a godfather, when its your turn to be godfather, its very, very different. same goes with cop, doctor, vigilante.

Tom, you practically not only ran more then one Mafia game, but you played twice/three times as many. Even though some of us played several to a lot of games, we havn't mod anymore then 2-3 games at a time, especially the new people.

Maybe everyone is different, but to really understand the construction of Mafia games, you would have to play a fair amount as well as mod a fair amount, so you would have a understanding for a balancing, fun Mafia game

 

[Tom]

but anyone can ask for design/mod help, and they can take all the time they need to design their game. im just saying that non-standard roles dont really make things impossible to balance...

 

[Xiivi]

The time it takes for you to wait between signing up to host a game and it being your turn to host a game allows for a lot of time to rework/tweak/balance your game actually.

I dunno, I've made like a bunch of different set-ups that will never get ran. Every now and then I'll send them to someone to look at. Testing out roles in 4 person AIMafias is always fun too, especially when Kevin & Chibo are playing.

Vyse is running a mafia game in the Australia social forum, and I last-minute reviewed it and I think we both really liked the changes. There's some iffy things in there, but I think it'll be interesting to watch. Jungle sent me/steel the Phoenix Wright mafia set-up, and there were things I noticed like immediately. I'm working with Chibo on a set-up and with KayLo! on one; it's fun.

When you have input from others it helps a lot and you all learn more.

Playing games is lame as heck though. Like I don't understand why people enjoy that, I'd much rather just watch.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mafia team will get the things they need most on their side. One that is clear from cop investigations, and one that can stop either a doc, cop, or even a vigilante (Mods may vary, but you get what I'm saying).

Then just don't add a cop and you won't need a GF either.

no no

we should discourage diverse roles in SWF. ppl dont know how to use/balance em and they'll probably end up annoying me than being any fun.

This seems to be more the problem of a game mod than the roles themselves. You can always ask for help.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I love designing and trying to balance games. Trying to balance BIM with a small number of participants to be played here on SWF was a blast, and even though it didn't work out as well as I had planned, I certainly had a lot of fun designing it and watching it play out.

Diversity is great, and experimenting with fresh roles always makes for exciting games. But yeah, the very essence of mafia is that even using the same setup over and over will always give you a different experience because of the way players use their role individually. Every game plays out different from the next, which is what prevents mafia from going stale.

As far as watching vs. playing goes, I'm not really a big fan of spectating online games, but it's a blast watching/modding games in RL mafia. We have a mafia club at school and they used to only play almost exclusively C9ish setups. Since most of them have little to no forum mafia experience, they were hesitant to try out new setups, but I finally got them to break out of their shells and since then our games have been much more exciting. A few weeks ago we played Fire and Ice and last week I introduced them to Yakuza, Bus Driver, Framer and Lawyer for the first time. This week I'll probably host a Jungle republic game and see how that turns out. But yeah, watching RL games is a riot.

Janitor is definitely the greatest role of all time to have in RL mafia games. Hands down. XP

 

[#HBC | Mac]

more vanilla townies please

 

[~ Gheb ~]

After playing / finishing a couple of games (~10 atm) and concerning myself a lot with mafia from a game designer's point of view I thought it might be a smart idea to discuss general issues regarding the design and the balance of games. Obviously I'm not a mafia guru and my personal experience is still quite limited but on the other hand I have a good sense of balance and a decent imagination of how theroetical ideas work out in actuality.
The reason I think it's time to make this thread is because there's an increasing amount of first-time hosts and some of the recent games I played in are / were not too well balanced (keep in mind though that inbalanced games can be fun) in my opinion. I will try to tackle some general issues I'm having with these games.


Town sided:

• Use more vanilla townies!
  Can't stress this enough because some people seem to think that games without vanilla townies are better. They really aren't. THE VANILLA TOWNIE IS ONE OF THE FUNNEST AND MOST BALANCED ROLE IN THE GAME!!!
  There are no limitations to that role - you can fake restrictions, breadcrumbs, draw scum's attention and recklessly scumhunt because you have nothing to lose. The best recent games (which imo were Simpsons and FFVII) both had lots of vanillas - it's no coincidence that those games were better than the others! In my opinion every mafia game should have at least 4 vanillas.
  
  
• Don't use too many PRs!
  It really breaks the game in case of mass roleclaims. 8/10 townies have powerful and easily verifiable claims like mason, cop / doc, governor/executioner, vigilante, etc while scum is left with nothing but a name to fake claim. In a game like that NOBODY will buy a vanilla claim but it's the only option left for scum because all good roles are taken. A smart host shouldn't let that happen. Adding 3 vanilla townies in a setup is imo a lot fairer than adding another PR.
  
  
• Being the Doc fucking SUCKS!!!
  Everybody, who enjoys playing as the Doc may raise his hand now! What? Nobody? Well, it's not a big surprise because Doc is an extremely unfun role to play. You have to stay alive as long as you can but you are screwed as soon as you have to claim. At the same time a Doc is used in every set-up even though the Doc has some viable replacements - the Bodyguard (often used in Epicmafia) is a lot more fun and rewarding to play. Hot Nurse is also an amazing never-used role, that's a lot more fun. Combining the Doc with a Hooker gives the player a lot more option game-play wise and allows him to claim town roleblocker. Combat Medic is also an awesome replacement for a role that's completely unfun.
  
  
• Gunsmith, Comparision Cop and Vanilla Cop are cool roles!
  Investigation roles are used way too predictably. In 90% of the cases it's either Cop + Cop variation or Watcher + Tracker. Throw in these 3 investiagtors into the mix and you suddenly get a whole bunch of options where usually things were coming too obvious. The amnesiac cop from TNM also looks fun and should be used here and there!

Mafia sided:

• More variety plz!
  Brought that already up in the role discussion but I want to point it out again. There are more (and more fun) roles than the obvious Goon / Roleblocker / Godfather trio. Janitor is fun to have in a game. Stalker is cool. Framer / Lawyer open many options in combination with cops. Witch / Interceptor open many options in combination with Tracker / Watcher. Traitor is one of the most awesome role ever and nobody uses it. It's a lot more challenging and skill based then the overused (and quite boring) Godfather. There are many ways to make mafia teams work against specific town power roles - it doesn't always have to be Doc + Cop vs Roleblocker + Godfather. Slapping the usual RB / GF / Goon combo onto a setup makes it look generic when you could add tons of funny twists!
  
  
• Mafia should always have a good claim!
  There's nothing more frustrating to watch than a well-played mafia tactic being destroyed by bad claims. This is not supposed to happen and if it does happen then it's clearly your fault as the game's host - mafia being unable to claim because the whole town has epic PRs on their side really destroys the whole fun of a game. Give mafia safeclaims that make sense to claim and correspond well with a role that's not in the game (or can be in a game more than just once). If all townies have PRs then it should be mandatory to give mafia safe roleclaims that correspond with the character safeclaims.

Independent sided:

• Independent should make sense in a game's setup!
  There's a reason "Independents" are also called "3rd party" - they are an individual party! Randomly throwing a Survivor or SK into a setup doesn't make a good indie side - the 3rd party should have a realistic chance to win and should be part of the game's balance. Best example is the Deepground side from FFVII - they were literally "independent". A clear enemy of the town but at the same time they had to cooperate with them to win (and town had to cooperate with them to win too). They also had to help the mafia side to score their mislynches but at the same time they had to be the only remaining players. THIS IS HIS HOW A 3RD PARTY SIDE IS SUPPOSED TO WORK.
  
  
• Don't use Survivors, politicans or jesters!
  Seriously. SK is cool, Abductor is awesome, Arsoner (with town-alligned Firefighters) is incredible, Warlock is interesting and is fun to have occasionally. Siblings / 3rd party groups are really fun to play as and can work well with the game's balance. Use this roles as indies - there are plenty of options here!
  
  
• You don't *have* to use indies!
  They can be really cool if they fit into the setup - if they don't then just don't use them. You don't have to. Better leave them out than uselessly adding one when it's totally uneeded - some games work perfectly well without them.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

docs/bodyguards are cool. however i think the epicmafia version of bodyguard (50% chance of killing whoever tries to kill their targeted) is lame. random factors suck

probably wouldnt use a comparison cop unless there was more than 1 scum faction. also wouldnt let them target themselves

goon/roleblocker/gf trio is good. tailors are cool too. so are lovers and scum vanilla cops

not sure how i feel about bp sks. if the scumteam can identify the sk then i think they should be able to take out that liability. fbi agents (maybe even a scum version?) to counteract them are nice

i think alignment-changing roles are some of the lamest things in mafia and will probably never use them

think roles with mutually exclusive win conditions are more fun

def need more vigs (specially me as vig)

 

[Nicholas1024]

You know what I'd like to see. A mason recruiter... with alignment mafia (or at least not town). He doesn't change alignments, but think of how much manipulating he could do! Not to mention it would really mess up mass-claiming too.